Multiple night wakings, I am at my wits end!

[Springbaby]

Hi, well this is going to be long! Ds is 9 1/2 months. Has never slept well. He is now waking 5-7 times a night, or more, pretty much hourly. I am trying to implement the easy method and am moving his last bf/bottle more and more away from sleep time. Although really it is still just before bed/naps but I am cutting him off before he gets too sleepy. I know I need to work more on this, I am just so tired and not wanting to fight with him that I don't care most days, to be honest. I have been taking him to bed with us halfway through the night (or earlier) and he doesn't sleep any better, still waking so often to nurse. I am seriously considering weaning because it is just so easy to bf him and I give in all the time Add that too all his teeth and my very sore nipples and I cringe at the thought these days of nursing!

Schedule:

wake about 6:30-7 (bf)
play
breakfast an hr later 8ish
about 15 minutes before nap bf
9-930 nap (usually 45min-1hr)

play
lunch or snack at about 11 then nurse
play or we go downtown at this point usually
get home, another snack usually
play
bf and nap anywhere between 130-230

this nap varies, he almost always wakes after 1/2 hr and 90% of the time I nurse him back to sleep. (Bad habit!) BUT, I've tried pu/pd, just shushing him, rocking him, nothing works, or has worked anyways to get him back to sleep. He gets very worked up and then won't sleep at all anymore. In these cases I will get him up and usually an emergancy nap is needed about 430 or so.

Supper around 530-6
Bedtime is bath naked time, bottle, and bed. He always goes down very easy for night.
Bed is 730-8

He doesn't like me rocking him, arches his back and pushes me away (usually). He doesn't usually like me touching him at all when I put him down in crib, he will push my hand away, although sometimes he likes to hold my hand (after pushing me away the last 10 times) till he falls asleep. I have been working on teaching him to lay back down and go to sleep on his own for a week now (JUST ON THE NAPS), and it is going quite well. Naps used to take 1/2 hr or more and me nursing 2 or 3 times and/or rocking to sleep. Now I have been laying him back down over and over and over and then letting him finally lay himself down when he gets exhausted enough! I do have this down to 5 - 10 minutes now.

Nights - I don't know why he is waking so much, although my instinct tells me he just wants my boob. I also think that he stands up while he is pretty much still asleep and then wakes up standing and doesn't really know how to lay back down, although he will drop to sitting. I know if I just don't help him at this point that he will learn to lay down, but I am having a very hard time hearing him cry and not going in.

~sigh~~ I wish there was a miracle cure! lol, I know that we can overcome this with a few nights of tears and no sleep, but I just feel so exhausted that when I wake up I cannot find the energy to do anything other than just nurse him back to sleep! (This is where I think about weaning )


Anyways, any thoughs??? Sorry this is so long!

Sorry, things I should have added....

he wont take a soother, I bf only one side a time, play time includes him getting into everything basically just exploring, although when it is warm enough we go outside and i pull him around in tobogan for some fresh air. When he wakes at night it starts out as a mantra cry but within a minute is an all out 'I know your out there, come get me' cry. he always goes right to sleep after feeding, which takes 5-10 minutes (always has been a quick nurser, even when awake). He is a very good eater (solids) and will eat 4 meals a day no problem. I also bf about 430-5ish for the last time that day, and I give him a bottle of formula before bed (7-8 oz) He also drinks water throughout the day (not much, maybe 2 oz?)

TIA....

[M and N's Mom]

Firstly HUGS!  I'm sorry you are having such a rough time of it.

I would definitely say your ds has a suck-to-sleep association.  He has not learned how to consistently put himself to sleep, or back to sleep, without nursing.  This can be overcome, without weaning if you want, but you really need to be committed to seeing things through without giving in. 

You are right when you say you could probably overcome this (or at least much of it) with a few rough nights.  Is DH or someone around to help?  Could you start on a Friday and have someone there to help over the weekend?  Sometimes if someone else does much of it, it may go faster because DS will know that he isn't going to be nursed by Daddy (or whoever), and you can't give in.

If you really want to do this, you must be consistent day AND night, and move your feeds completely away from sleeping.  Here was our routine at 9.5 mos (times vary depending on naps but the routine stays the same):

7:00 Wake and BF
8:00 Solids
10:00-11:00 Nap #1
11:30 BF
1:00 Solids
2:15-3:30 Nap #2
3:30 BF
5:30 Solids
6:00 BF (change clothes/diaper etc after BF)
6:30 Bedtime

Anyway, DS is crying so I've got to run but hopefully there is something helpful in here!

[Springbaby]

Thanks for replying! Yes, dh is around, although I am hesitant to get him to go in only because he has never helped yet and has been away 8 weeks out of the last 11 So of course ds is not used to him in the night EVER. That said, dh will help if I ask. The odd time that he has gone in though ds turns from 'mom I need you' to a hysterical angry cry, so I don't know what to do with that. Ds usually won't even let dh give him his bottle before bed.

Another concern of mine is cutting out all of the night feedings at once. I have been feeding him usually 5 or so times a night, that will be such a shock to him! Is it really ok to do that? I just keep thinking that that is so sudden and mean! I know that I cant really just feed him once or twice (or can I?) won't that just confuse him? I have been thinking about switching to a bottle for night feeds, for two reasons, one, to monitor how much he is actually drinking, and two, to wean him from comfort nursing. Then to water down the bottle and then to wean. I am not sure if this is all for my peace of mind or for him really! It will all be a much longer process too, but I would hope an easier adjustment for him.

I will start immediately on the easy method, just put him down actually for his second nap with out nursing or feeding at all, and it only took 15 minutes Although his morning nap was only 20 minutes so now of course his second nap is early.

Ahhh, the joys of being a mom 

[M and N's Mom]

Congrats on putting him down for a nap without nursing    Great start!

No, I don't think you can cut out all the night feedings at once.  He will likely be genuinely hungry SOME of the time since he is used to getting those calories at night.  You probably need to choose a specific time, and not feed before that time.  So, if the last feeding is at 6:30, decide how long you think he can go and don't feed him before that time.  If you choose 1:30, for example, you wouldn't feed him before then but would use put down for wakings before that time.  Once you have fed him once, you wouldn't feed him again until another set time...maybe 3-4 hours from that feeding.  IMO, once he knows how to go to sleep on his own, you can work on getting rid of legitimate night feedings (as opposed to using you to get to sleep).  Am I making sense?

Have you checked out the pu/pd board at all?  Here is the link for how to do pu/pd and age adaptations:  https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=69177.0

The other thing you want to be careful of is weaning one prop (bf) and creating another one.  I speak from experience as I inadvertently started patting ds to sleep after taking away his paci and that became a new prop we had to break.  So, be careful to offer him reassurance, but don't put him to sleep in ANY way.  He needs to learn to do this himself.  There will be a lot of crying but what he's telling you is, "For 9.5 months we have gone to sleep with the breast.  I don't know how to do it any other way, Mom.  What are you doing?"

HTH a bit.  You're off to a good start with rearranging the day.  Get DH on board as much as possible because it is not an easy process and you will need the support but I'm sure you can do it

[Springbaby]

Update on us!

Well, last night I put him to bed at 8, he woke at 930 but went back to sleep with me just laying him back down, then woke at 1030 again (typical) and this one was awful. I spent 20-25 minutes doing pu/pd and then dh came in to try to help  and ds freaked. He started doing a hysterical cry and wouldn't stop. Note here, dh got mad after 3 minutes and stomped out of the room staying to let him cry  So, I gave in and gave him a bottle (instead of nursing for comfort) and he guzzled 5-6 oz back. I thought then he would just go to sleep but no, it took another 10 minutes to settle him, although he stayed laying down but mantra crying the whole time.

After that though he slept till 3 am! This is amazing! I don't know if it was the formula, the crying tired him out, or just a fluke! So, I changed his diaper then (never do this in the night) and bf him (both sides, I usually only feed from one side) and he slept till 5:50! Amazing again! He wakes VERY often after 4 or so. BUT, he wouldn't go back to sleep after bfing this time. So, we had a 245 wake time now and he went for his first nap very good, maybe 2 minutes only!

I am feeling hopeful today, last night I was very discouraged and deciding to co-sleep full time Glad he slept good or I would be re-arranging his room right now! lol...I am really in need of a wind down routine though for naps...since I am not bf to sleep anymore! Today I gave him a bottle in the living room (so he wouldn't get sleepy) and then went to his room and just stood and swayed for a minute. I am wary of holding him while I stand as a part of the routine though because I am only 100  lbs and he is 21lbs already. What will I do in 6 months! Maybe I should start weight lifting, lol...

Anyways that's my update. I want to try not to feed till 1 am or so but am kinda wondering if I should try earlier again tonight and see if the same happens. Last night was a huge improvement! OR maybe I should try another bottle after supper and the one before bed (cluster feed a bit)?? Any ideas? Thanks!

[M and N's Mom]

Great job last night!  You're off to a good start!  As much as I'm sure it felt really long and awful, 25 minutes for the first time isn't that long.  I have done put down (I don't pick him up, he stands up and I lay him down) for over an hour on occasion.

I'm sorry DH wasn't much help...maybe he can give you a break during the day so you can have a nap or a quiet bath or something.

If he took 6oz, he was probably hungry.  Like I said, he is used to the calories at night.  Once you are down to only hunger wakings, you can work on weaning those.

You should be feeling hopeful.  Things went very well.  Don't give in and co-sleep, unless you want to be tackling this problem in a year or two.  At some time he will need to learn independent sleep.  IMO better to do it when he is younger. 

That is great to feed him in the living room rather than his room.  Just wondering why you were feeding him right before a nap? 

For a wind down we go into his room, sit in the rocking chair and cuddle and sing a few songs, then into the crib he goes.  Usually I can just leave and he does the rest.  If we are having a rough day or he is overtired, I might have to do pd for a few minutes but I don't rock him or anything, he has to put himself to sleep.  Could you get a chair in his room rather than standing with him?

Your choice as to whether to feed him earlier in the evening or try to get him to wait.  You might get a longer stretch of sleep if you feed him once before midnight and hope he goes longer.  You could cluster feed him in the evening if you want.  You could still bf him after supper and then the usual bottle before bed.  Up to you when you want to stop bf-ing but don't feel you have to wean just to get him to sleep, you just need to rearrange things a bit.  I bf both of my children, but not for comfort, only for hunger. 

Good luck tonight.  If you have more questions, I can try to answer them as best as I can

[Springbaby]

Hi there

Well, I was feeding him before the nap to try to get him to wind down a bit. He is a VERY active little boy who is almost walking so he is just go go go all the time. Some of it is probably my bad habit, I need to stop thinking that he should go to bed on a full tummy!

I have tried sitting in his room in a big chair to cuddle (he doesn't cuddle though ) but he just pushes me away and tries to get down constantly. He won't even read a book with me, just tries to rip up the pages. Maybe I'll try just playing on the floor of his room for 5 minutes with a 'quiet' toy and see if that works, I don't know....

I am not thinking that weaning will help with the sleep, well, maybe I am, but I really think I am ready to wean anyways. At least down to 2 or 3 feeds a day. I am feeling done with that area and he is biting so much I am just raw ;( Thanks so much for the support, it really really helps! Now for nap # 2....

[M and N's Mom]

How did the naps go today? 

For the wind down, you have a good idea.  Maybe go into his room, turn off, or at least dim the lights, close the blinds, etc. and play with a quiet toy.  You could even read to him then.  It took me a while to realize with my DD (who is very active too) that I could read to her, or sing to her, while she was playing on the floor beside me...she didn't have to be sitting on my lap, although that would be nice.  Just hearing you read is good for them too.  Do you have any board books?  They are great for not ripping the pages and then they can play with the books too.

Sorry to hear that DS bites so much.  My DS only has his 2 bottom teeth (and he is almost 11 months!) so we haven't hit that yet.  I have heard that if you put your hand on the back of his head, when he begins to bite, mash his face into your breast quickly but briefly.  This causes them to not be able to breathe for an instant, and startles them so they learn not to do it again.  Don't know how it works but might be worth a try.

Good luck tonight!  I hope it goes really well for you...BUT don't get discouraged if it doesn't go totally smoothly.  You are off to a great start and it is only the second night!  You can do this 

[Springbaby]

hi, the naps were typical, but I didn't feed him before the pm one!! The am nap (which was usually 45 min to an hr has only been 20 minutes the last two days, don't know why though. The pm nap, he went down really well, but again woke after 30 minutes (he always does this, and this is usually where I take him into my bed and nurse him back to sleep and nap with him) but this time I did just pd and he went back to sleep for an hour! Pd only took maybe a minute too! Doing a happy dance! So, night-time was a bit late though, as we were out and about, but only 20 minutes late so maybe there is hope...

I think he is catching on quite well, I really didn't expect to see results this fast actually! I started last week (Mon) with a variation of pu/pd, mostly pd, so really I am on day 10 but I haven't been totally consistant. Last night was also the first night he spent the whole night in his crib in months!  Hopefully I am not getting my hopes up too high here, tonight could be a total bust, but I will try hard not to give in and take him to bed I don't have a plan really for wake ups, I want to hold off on feeds as long as I can of course, and will probably start with pd and see how he reacts I guess. I was quite surprised he drank so much last night since he drank 8 oz of formula at 8 and then the 6 more at 11.

Yes I do have the hard cover books and I did read one of those to him for the pm nap today, works ok I think, only lasted 1 minute maybe though before he is struggling to get off my lap. I put him in the crib then and he actally played for about 5 minutes and then reached up to me when he was ready to lay down. I know this isn't what I am working towards but it is the first time I have put him in the crib and he hasn't cried immediately. I consider it a breakthrough! I really don't want him disliking his crib! Anyways, gotta get to bed! I notice we have a huge time difference,, where the heck are you? I am in BC, anyways, thank you!

PS Should i maybe post in naps about his short and interupted naps or maybe wait and see if they get better with the easy routine? I am kinda thinking wait and see....

[Springbaby]

Well, the only good thing about last night was that I didn't take him to bed with me He woke at:

10:30 - tried pd for a about 10 minutes, then he drank 2 oz and fell asleep
1:30 - Drank 5 oz, would have drank more but the bottle was empty so he went to sleep
3:00 - bf and diaper change
5:00 - drank 6 oz but took 20 minutes to get back to sleep
slept very fitfully till 720, awake probably 5 times in there, pd for 3 of them, and he fell asleep by himself for 2. I am waiting for him to wake fully and his cry to change before going in.

So. I guess now I know how much he is drinking during the night and can start to lessen the feeds. I don't think he needs the 10:30 feed. Gotta run, the boss is calling.

[Springbaby]

Well, nap #1 took 1/2 hr again. A time was 2 1/2 hrs. Should I maybe be leaving the room at all? He gets very angry if I even step towards the door....I feel like all I am teaching him is that I will lay him down over and over till he is ready to sleep I guess I am not nursing to sleep though...and the odd time he does lay himself down....maybe I am just expecting too much too soon.

[Colin Macs Mom]

Could he be having separation anxiety? Does he show any signs during the non-sleep times, like being more clingy, not wanting you to leave the room?

[Springbaby]

Well, maybe, but I don't 'think' so. Although this is my first, so what do I know! He usually plays well by himself though and isn't whiny unless he is tired or hungry...His first nap now was only 20 min again, and he would not go back to sleep, so now he is tired and up 

[M and N's Mom]

Hey!  I haven't forgotten about you, but I woke at 3am myself with a TERRIBLE bout of the flu and have been sick as a dog since then (still am) but I didn't want you to think I had abandoned you.   My mom has been here looking after the lo's all day thankfully.

I'm sorry last night didn't go too smoothly, but you have had some breakthroughs.  You are not nursing to sleep, he has gone to sleep on his own sometimes, and he even went back to sleep with pd a few times.  If he is crying when you try to leave the room, maybe just stand a few steps away from the crib, but not looking at him (so he doesn't try to engage you).  Only pd when he is truly crying.  If he is just standing or sitting and playing, ignore him.  He has to learn to do it on his own.

Do you think 2.5h is enough awake time?  He might be able to go a little bit longer A time (if he has had a good nap).

I'm sorry I don't have more advice right now.  Hopefully I will be feeling better tomorrow and can think a little more clearly.  Hang in there.  It isn't going to go smoothly in just a couple of days.  He has 9.5 months of habits you are trying to break and you can break them, but you have to be consistent!  Good luck tonight!

P.S.  I'm in Ontario.

[Springbaby]

Thanks for the post and support! i hope you feel better soon, the flu sucks! I think tonight I will water down the bottles a bit and not worry so much about how many times he is eating, unless of course it is a 1/2 hr later, lol...I will try to stand a few feet from the crib, or I should say sit, since I am thinking it will be a long sit in! I have been reading some success stories and am feeling again like I CAN do this. (I should read them before every nap and during the night too! Ha Ha)

That 2.5 hr wake time was his first A time, which yes, it probably should have been a bit longer I am thinking. I will try 3 next time I think.

Thanks again, and stay in bed!