8.5 mo and lots of issues

[Karin3]

I was able to use pu/pd successfully about 1.5 months ago to get Mimi to go from the df to 0730.  I think there are multiple issues here...    Although, it's probably something simple that I'm just missing.     We went on a trip for the holidays, and she hasn't really slept through since.  I've tried tweaking her EASY a bit and I think I've ironed out the kinks there.  This is what our day looks like:

0730 wake & BF
0830 solids
1030-1130/1200 Nap 1

1130/1200 BF
1230/1300 Solids
1500/1530 - 1630/1700 Nap 2

1630/1700 BF
1730/1800 Solids

1845 Windown (BF @ around 1900), into crib by 1915

Bedtime Feed: I've been having trouble with the bedtime feed forever.  I'm trying to work on it.  At first, I thought it was a supply issue, but now I'm really starting to think it's something else.  She just pretty much refuses the breast.  It's always been difficult to get her to take the breast for this feed but I didn't worry about it because she always took a good feed at the df.  So, I've been pumping after the she goes to bed every night for the past 2-3 nights.  I know there was plenty of milk last night because she would bob off the breast and I would spray everywhere.    So, since she wouldn't take anymore I continued with the windown.  I put her in her crib awake as usual.  But instead of going to sleep, she started fussing.  Well, it wasn't a propper cry so I went ahead and left.  It quickly escalated.  So, I went in and tried to soothe her in the crib.  She wouldn't have any of it.  After 45 mins, I offered the breast and she wouldn't take it.  But, then I gave her a bottle with formula, and she downed 2 oz, calmed down, I put her in her crib awake and she went straight to sleep.  She did this exact same thing the night before last.  I'm completely and totally confused by this.  I tried dropping the feed after her afternoon nap, thinking that maybe I was cramming too much in at the end of the day.  Well, that was just a disaster.  I posted about it in the b/f board.  (She's taking a full feed now at that feed so I'm confident with that feed.)

dream feed: So, I managed to move up the df to between 9-9:30pm unless she does what she did last night.  Then, it's around 10pm.  She has always woken for the df.  Some nights she takes a full feed and some nights she doesn't take much at all.  I tried to give it consistently at 9pm so I could move it up, but she just woke up all the way, and got really mad.  Then, she woke at 10pm to feed.  I don't know how to get rid of this.  I also don't know if I can get rid of this until I fix the bedtime nursing problem.  KWIM?  Also, could this feed be causing the n/w?

N/W & Pu/PD:   She usually wakes sometime between 12:30-0200.  She starts out just fussing.  I don't like to go in when she's just fussing because I know she doesn't need me.  But, she will fuss for about an hour.  I start to get worried about her and go in there and and then all h*** breaks loose.  I tried pu/pd for about 2 hrs, for 2 nights in a row... and then I gave up and fed her.     She will start to settle (suck her thumb and roll over) then after a few mins, she'll roll back over, see me and flip out again.  So, I started leaving when she started to settle.  She freaks out as soon as she sees me leaving the crib area.  If she senses/hears the door open, she'll start flipping out as well.  I have to be doing something wrong.  I try not to pick her up very much because that just makes her more upset.

Sorry this is so long!  I haven't listed everything going on before.  I know it's probably hurting your head... it hurts mine.    Anyway, any advice would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!

[Sharon P]

HI Karin,

I am so far off from having a problem free sleeping baby. I am also at a loss regarding the feeding and Pu/Pd problems. I really just wanted to drop in and that way I can follow how you are going.

The only thing I was wondering about was the time Mimi wakes up from her 2nd nap and it being so close to bedtime. You said that you have tweaked your EASY so I assume that the A times are what works best for you currently, it just struck me that her A time at the end of the day is so much shorter than the morning and lunch time slot. Could she possibly handle a later bedtime or short A times at some other point in the day?

I am just shooting from the hip, hope you don't mind.

Sharon.

[Karin3]

I know it seems really weird that she has sucha short A time at the end of the day.  She really struggles at the end of the day.  Last night was the easiest it's been to put her down all wk.  She didn't fall asleep until about 3:45pm and then I let her sleep until 5:30pm.  I put her in bed at 7pm (started the windown at 6:30pm).  She just gets soooo tired and cranky at the end of the day.  While she was easier to put down, she had an extra n/w.  So, I don't know.  She can go the longest in the middle of the day, sometimes close to 4 hr.  The mornings can get a little rough as well, but it kind of depends on how bad her night was.  If she's been up for over 2 hrs in the night, then she is a bear in the morning.

[Karin3]

Oh, I also forgot to mention that I started feeding her before her 2nd nap, instead of after it.  I did this yesterday and it seemed to help.  I've also started putting her down a little earlier for her 1st nap.  I think she might be gettin up before 0730.  I usually hear her around 0615, but then it's quiet.  So, I'm not sure if she goes back to sleep or if she just hangs out in there...  She is pretty quiet when she's happy & content...  So, this is what it looked like yesterday:

0730 BF
0830 solids
1015-1200 nap 1

1200 bf
1300 solids

1500 bf
1545-1730 nap 2

1840 bf (no formula, yay! 
1900 sleep

wake-ups: 2130 (bf), 2300, 0130 (bf)

For the N/Wings, I just need to stop feeding her.  Does anyone have any pu/pd suggestions since I'm really struggling with that this time around?  I know I'm not supposed to do wi/wo until she's 1 yo, but I'm wondering if I should do this...    She's also started crying as soon as I walk out the door for naps too.  It only lasts for about 15 seconds (I counted to see how long) and it's not really a cry....it sounds more like she's yelling, so I just stand outside the door until she quiets down. 

[Lola]

Hi Karin-

I'm probably not much help here but my lo was HELL from 8-11 months straight it seemed. One day she was perfect, the next a demon child. She was teething like MAD and very restless. Took us over 2+ hr every night to put her down.
You may have to tweak her awake times and her naps. Her 2nd nap seems like it's a bit late and maybe she's not tired enough for a good sleep? Sounds like she goes well for 3.5 hours of awake time ?

I think M's naps were all about 1.5 to 1.75 long , very similar to your lo..her longest A time was the end of the day..from the end of her last nap to bedtime.

I, too did pu/pd with madelaine but it only seemed to work sporadically as I had to tweak her schedule. Its a matter of always adjusting her schedule with her...
If you think she's awake earlier, then you should likely move back her 1st nap to about 9:30...move lunch earlier and move back her 2nd nap...give her a longer A time before bed (not too long or she'll be overtired) so she's good and tired before bed.

?the pros will come along soon to help I'd imagine

Laura xx

[Karin3]

FIL came to stay this wknd.  He let her stay up until 9pm on Friday night while dh and I went out for our anniversary.  I fed her and got her ready for bed before we left (she seemed tired - eye rubbing and fussing) but FIL wanted to play with her.  I just wanted to get out and she's been so 'off', I figured it wouldn't hurt.  She woke at about 11pm and was still up at midnight when we got home.  I fed her and she went right to sleep.  Then, she slept until the morning time.

We let her stay up until 8:30pm last night.  I thought she looked tired around 7:30pm (eye rubbing and fussing) but since Friday night went pretty well, I kept her up.  FIL was also enjoying spending time with her....  Well, I started nursing her at 8:15pm and she fell asleep on the boob.  She woke up while I was putting her in her sleep sack and in the crib.  But, she sucked her thumb and went back to sleep as soon as I put her in her crib.  She woke at about 10pm.  I gave her a full feed and then she fell back asleep until morning.

So, I am definitely tweaking her EASY at the end of the day.  She seems so tired earlier in the evening and I feel like I'm ignoring her tired cues... but I guess she's not tired enough.    I don't want to keep her up until 8:30pm though.  Maybe 8pm...?  I feel like I can't count on her cues to pick a bed time.   I am moving up her 2nd nap a little earlier though.

The early waking, what used to be the df....  It's got to be a habit, eventhough she takes a full feed sometimes.  She wakes about 1.5-2 hrs after she goes to sleep for the night.  So, I might start with slowly decreasing how long she's on the breast for that one.  Then, when it gets down to just a few mins, maybe do W2S.  Does that sound like a viable plan?

[SallyDom]

Hi Karin,
Just thought I'd stick my oar in!

She usually wakes sometime between 12:30-0200.  She starts out just fussing.  I don't like to go in when she's just fussing because I know she doesn't need me.  But, she will fuss for about an hour.  I start to get worried about her and go in there and and then all h*** breaks loose. 

I personally don't go in to Dominic unless he is crying, I know it's hard to listen to them fussing but I think a baby will soon let us know if it needs us. Maybe your lo would go back to sleep but you going in gets her too worked up

She will start to settle (suck her thumb and roll over) then after a few mins, she'll roll back over, see me and flip out again.  So, I started leaving when she started to settle.  She freaks out as soon as she sees me leaving the crib area.  If she senses/hears the door open, she'll start flipping out as well.  I have to be doing something wrong.  I try not to pick her up very much because that just makes her more upset.

I also had the same problem with Dominic (10 months), pat/shush workd a dream when he was little and then suddenley stopped working, I didn't know what the hell to do! Pu/pd has never really worked well for us, I carry on with it though cos I don't really know what else to do. I am thinking maybe you have some seperation anxiety problems going on. Again think we are having the same thing, Dom keeps getting upset during the day as well if we walk out of a room and he's left on his own, screams his head off bless him. Maybe have a look at the SA sticky on here to get some ideas on how to help dd.
Another thing is can you leave her bedroom door open when you are settling her, that way you only have to sneak out and close the door rather than having to open the door first, nothing like the squeak of a door to get our lo squealing!

With regards to the dreamfeed. Does it say above that she wakes up for the df and then again later for another feed? At her age it is about time to get rid of the df altogether so I would probably not wake her at 9pm and when she wakes at 10pm (did I read it wrong or did you say you df her at 9pm and then she wakes at 10pm for another feed?) start to reduce the amount of milk you give her. If she wakes consistently at the same time every night then it sounds like habitual waking (or in our case Dom wakes if he is overtired but it doesn't sound like your little girl is). I don't know about breastfeeding but we reduced the df by diluting the milk in Dom's bottle. How would you little girl feel about having less time on the breast each night?

These are just a few thoughts, hope they help

Sal
x

[Karin3]

Thanks Sal!

Well, I think I got rid of her later waking by fixing her EASY.  At least, that's what I'm hoping for.  I won't claim victory over the 2nd n/w until it's gone for at least a week.  The earlier waking was originally a df and she has always waked for it.  She used to wake between 10pm-10:30pm.  Then, I was trying to phase it out and give it earlier.  I tried to do it in 3-day intervals but, she would wake on the 2nd day.  So, I kind of stopped trying to move it back...  The time is kind of erratic but it's always 1.5-2 hrs after she goes to bed.  Sometimes she takes a full feed and sometimes she doesn't take very much at all.  So, I might try W2S tonight and see if that works.

I think you're right about the SA creeping in.  It's not all the time but sometimes she'll start fussing a little when I leave the room.  I'll check out the sticky on that.  I've been playing lots of peek-a-boo with her...