Crying before napping?

[mich0902]

My 4 months old DD cries and fusses in her crib EVERY TIME I put her in it for her nap. We started unswaddling her, but she did this when she was swaddled too. She will cry and scream for 5 five minutes, until I finally give in and go in to bounce her mattress a little (sometimes as little as 5-10 seconds). Then she's fine and will sleep for about an hour.  I usually let her try to fall asleep on her own and after 3-5 minutes I go in and bounce her mattress while sshhing.

I'm wondering if this is normal for her age or if she should start to be able to relax on her own soon. When can we expect to let them fall asleep TOTALLY on her own? Is it a developmental thing or is it just her own way of falling asleep and I can't ever expect better? How does your LO fall asleep for his nap?

Before you ask  , here is her schedule:

8:00-8:30: get up, feed
9:30-10:00: nap time
10:30-11:00: get up, feed
12:30-1:00: nap time
1:30-2:30: get up feed
3:30-4:00: nap time
5:30: feed
7:00: bath
7:30: last feed
8:00-8:15: sleep

Usually, she wakes up around 3-5 AM for a feed and goes right back to sleep. 


TIA!

Michele (mom to Maude, born 28-9)

[¤ Efka ¤]

I am sure you get advise later on, just wanted to let you know, that at t his age my LO still cried beforre nap, mind you he still does at 9 months. I guess for some babies it takes longer.

[momofclaire]

I think some babies naturally just need a little time to let out some steam before falling asleep.  Instead of leaving an going back in I would lay her down and pat/shh her until she drifts off.  Hopefuly the amount of time you have to pat/shh will get less and less.  It sound as if in general you have a great sleeper though.   I think once she learns how to fall asleep on her own she will without any of your help.  If you use pat/shh maybe she won't cry at all. KWIM

[RegMum]

I find if I get the timing exactly right my 3.5M DD won't cry before falling asleep, but the more overtired she is, the longer she cries.

[mdtaylor]

My 4 mo old DD does the same thing.  For me she cried 5-10 minutes, for my DH she has cried much longer, even for 2 hours of him trying to calm her on Friday.  I hope more people have ideas for us!

[mich0902]

Well, I tried putting her down when she's more tired and when she's less tired; I tried staying in the room ssshing, leaving the room and coming back; I tried a longer wind down routine and a shorter one...  She just cries and moans for the same amount of time EVERY TIME.  It's like she needs it.  She hates the wind down routine (starts complaining as soon as we enter her bedroom - if I take her to the living room, she stops crying IMMEDIATELY)  and she fusses the entire time I try to calm her.  That baby never lets me rock her  , I wish I could have done it sometimes when she was a newborn, but I never could!  It's like she hates sleeping.  I swear, I've seen her stay up for 4 HOURS without a peep. 

I just wonder if it's her temperament and there's nothing I can do about it, or if there is something I could be missing...?

***Editing to add that we have great nights, goes down around 8 PM and gets up at 7 AM, with only one feed around 4-5 AM.***

[KathrynK]

maybe as pp said, that's just her way of winding down for sleep. Does it sound to you like a needing- attention- distress cry, or do you think it's her mantra cry? Many babies when young have a mantra cry to get off to sleep. DD still does sometimes even now

[weatherlyn]

ooh been there, still there....... my spirited DS also does the moan wail thing, its almost like he has to get it out of his system, and once in a blue moon, if the timing is spot on it wont happen, but we all know how hard it it to get it at exactly the right mo, mission impossible i tell you......he is an indep sleeper, and most of the time i dont even have to be in the room he will eventually settle himself hopefully as they get older it will pass!

[mich0902]

I posted this a couple of months ago, and we're still there at 5 months.  I would like your opinion...  Do you think that's a case of CIO or should I try to calm her down anyway?  I sometimes have the feeling my being there doesn't make any difference.  How will she learn to calm down by herself if I keep trying to calm her?  Am I expecting too much?

Here is today schedule so far:

7:30 - wake up
8:00 - nurse
9:00 - nap, went pretty well for this one
11:15 - wake up
11:30 - nurse
12:45 - starts to show tired signs, rubs her face on my shoulder, so I start the wind down routine.  As soon as I start the routine, she starts to cry!  I tried pat/shhh and pu/pu and she finally goes to sleep at 1:45.  She is still sleeping right now (3:45).

What am I missing here?  I can't believe she was overtired after 1.30 of waking up at 5 months old!!!  Maybe not tired enough?  But she's been sleeping for 2 hours, she must have been tired?

What is going on here?

Any advice is MUCH appreciated!!!!

A very confused Michele

[momofclaire]

Hi Michele- I am sorry you are still having a rough time.  What do you mean by this "Do you think that's a case of CIO or should I try to calm her down anyway?"  I re read your first post and when you say she "will cry and scream for 5 minutes" what does that mean? 

Have you been able to distinguish her mantra cry? 

Babies tend to have longer A times as the day goes on so maybe she wasn't quite ready to go down for a nap? I think it is possible that she may be ready for a longer A time.  What do you think she would do if you waited till 9:15 to put her down for her first nap?  Or what do you think about giving her a little longer A time before the second nap?  Babies  her age have 2-2.25 hours of awake time.  I think her fighting so hard that second nap might be a sign that she is ready for more A time.  I would increase it in small increments.  (15 min) You said that she seems tired but maybe a change of scenery would keep her busy for a few extra minutes. 

How does the rest of the day go after that second nap?

Hang in there it does get better, it really does!

[mich0902]

I thought the A time should be longer too, but I'm so scared she'll go overtired, I think sometimes I start the nap routine too early.  It's like when you're on the bus and someone tells you you need to go down two blocks before 2nd avenue, but you don't know where the 2nd avenue is exactly!      I can keep her busy without a problem, but with so much crying, I fear the overstimualtion...  And anyway, she always cries no matter what the A time is...    She can't relax on her own, the only times she'll fall asleep on her own is when she just nursed and relaxed on the breast.  Otherwise, she cries, fusses, squirms and needs our help 75% of the time. 

When I ask about CIO, I wonder if I should let her try to calm down herself because I'm not sure if I'm always there she's learning anything.  And the 5 minutes are turning into WAY more than that, 15-20 minutes, most of the time.  Sometimes it looks like a mantra cry, but it quickly escalates.

The rest of the day is not so good either.  Today, the second nap was very long, and I let her sleep knowing she wouldn't have a third one.  If she wakes up past 3:30, there's no way she'll sleep again.  Otherwise, we sometimes manage a short nap around 4:30-5 PM, but it's very short and it involves a lot of crying too.  We do the bath around 7, a last feed around 7:30 and bedtime around 8.  Sometimes, she'll wake once during the night, but lately, she's been waking up 2-3 times.  I won't feed her before 7-8 hours of sleep.

I wonder if I should let her try to fall asleep more on her own or if the crying indicates she's insecure and needs more reassurance...    

[momofclaire]

If her cry escalates then she needs you.

She is only 5 months old. I think you should keep that in mind.  I know that it can be hard and very wearing but you have to teach her to sleep on her own and that takes time and patience.  She does need your help to learn that but it will be worth it. 
I would try to lengthen your A times just a little.  This is a marathon here not a sprint. I would work on one thing at a time and keep the big picture in mind. 

As far as overstimulation goes, I would keep start making the activity quieter as A time goes on. For instance if A time is 2 hours then after one hour reduce stimuli just a little.  My lo was sensitve to stimulation and then I realized that it might be a lot to her to have the tv or radio on even though to me it was background noise.  Everthing is new to her so if you are worried about overstimulation just keep things mellow. 

Her recent night waking could be a result of letting her cry during the day for naps.  Letting her cry can break the trust she has and cause her to be less likely to settle herself when she wakes at night.
Also, you are coming into the 6 mo growth spurt so even if you have not been feeding overnight she may need it then.  If you think she's not hungry then don't feed her but repeated wakings could signal hunger, esp in a couple of weeks when you hit that spurt.

I hope all this helps.  I will do whatever I can to help.  You are doing  a good job I just think the stress has you worn down a bit and that is normal.  Take care
Myia

[mich0902]

I'll try to keep an eye on her A time.  I guess what is really wearing me out (but you're right, I'm under a lot of stress right now) is the fact that she's not winding down at all.  She resists the minute I walk through her bedroom door with her.  She won't calm down in my arms, and if she does, I have to start all over in her crib.  Pat/shhh takes forever to work and we've been doing it since she's 2 months old, so I don't see any changes with that.  Pu/PD is even worse!  That's why I'm starting to think about CIO...    

Why won't she calm down when she's tired?  I can't believe she could be overtired with 2 hrs of A time at her age!  Is she just a restless baby?  There's nothing exciting in her crib, yet she gets all worked up eating her blankie for 20 minutes!  How do I get her to just calm down by herself?   

[momofclaire]

If you think her blankie is distracting her and keeping her up then remove it.

She won't calm down because she doesn't know how.  That is where you come in. It is important for you to teach her. I know it can be soooo frustrating but she is a baby she doesn't know how to calm down.

If you have let her cry then you may also be having to deal with regaining her trust.  Sleep training takes consistancy.  If you aren't consistant you will get nowhere.  Pu/pd works for most babies but like I said consistancy is key, you might as well not do it if you aren't able to stick with it because it will just be a lot of work for nothing.
Do you have a good windown routine for naps?  My dd always responded well to a very regular wind down where we did the same thing exactly. 
I hope this helps.

[Caroline-Charlies Mummy]

First of all {{{{hugs}}}} to you, you sound like you're having a hard time.

From your posts, it does not sound like you have been consistent with her - maybe trying too many different things. You need to decide on a strategy, then stick to it (fwiw, I don't think that CIO would work for you, even if we could advocate that for you). Have you read our FAQs section? It's full of great tips, especially on wind-downs and techniques for teaching sleep. You need to help your dd learn how to calm herself, then things should get a lot easier. Here's a link to one particular thread I think you should read https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85499.0. I've also highlighted a couple of passages from that link that I think are particularly pertinent to you:

Jane also advised that I do a pre-wind down before all naps. So if the nap is supposed to start at 8:30, around 8:00 start walking around the house or the garden. The swaying motion of walking releases a calming hormone in the baby. Walk around until 8:15 and then start your wind down. In my wind down I rock her for a bit, turn on a lullabye, take off her clothes, change her diaper, swaddle her, and then "slow dance" with her. I may tweak the wind down/pre-nap routine but it worked well this morning.
__________________________________________

After speaking with Mathew's Mommy and getting a great pm from Carasmom I tweaked a few things. First, awake times. I didn't think DS could stay up longer than 1.5 or 1.75 hours but the issue was that that wasn't long enough and he was overstimulated...even my wind down was overstimulating. reading, singing...all the way up to the moment I put him down. It was too much.
So, the last few days my windown starts 30 minutes before his awake time ends, aiming at 2hrs-2hr 15 min. awake time. I read a couple of books and then pop him in my sling (it's been a god-send, it's called New Native Baby Carrier) and either walk outside or do a bit of tidy up. He seems to love the vacuum-lucky me as now I don't have to do this during Y time! We walk for 15 min. or so. I put him in his sleeper (I bought a Grobag but it doesn't fit just yet-too big on his head) and walk a bit more. My goal is to sit in the glider no earlier than 5 min. before A time ends. So then I sit for about 1 minute or 2 depending on his mood, whether he's yawning, rubbing his eyes, inchworming against me. Then I kiss him and put him down.

I hope this helps, please keep us updated on your progress