Habitual Wakings

[babynat]

Momofclaire,
Hi - I am desperately trying to figure out how to help my LO sleep longer at night.  I have posted on the naps board regarding extending naps, but since I ran across your post, I thought I'd ask:  What if your LO has numerous habitual wakings?  Do you try to tackle one at a time or all of them?  My LO habitually wakes at 1 am and again at 5 a.m.  (I feed her a dream feed at 11 and nurse her at 3 a.m., so she is not hungry).  I have tried to find information on W2S but can't seem to find too much.  Thanks for your time!

[momofclaire]

I have split your topic so you will be able to get more answers to your question. Hope you don't mind.  I would tackle one night waking at a time. Can you post your daytime routine so I can have a look.  Here is a link to w2s.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64168.0

[babynat]

Thank you so much Momofclaire.  Here is our routine.

  6-6:30 awake
E 7:00 nurse
A 7:30
S 8:00 nap (1.5-1.75 she wakes after 45 min, I help her back to sleep)

   9:30 awake - play
E 10:30 nurse
A 10:45
S 11:15 nap (1.5-1.75)

   1:00 awake - play
E 2:00 nurse
A 2:15
S 2:45 (1.5-1.75)

  4:30 awake - play
E 5:30 nurse
A 6:00
   6:30 bedtime routine (bath, massage, pjs, nurse, but she is awake when she goes in to her crib)
S 7:00

She then gets a bottle at 11 p.m. for a dream feed.  She wakes (I think out of habit) at 1 am, awake again at 3 am (I nurse her) and she wakes again at 5 a.m.  I give her a paci and she sleeps till about 6 a.m. 

[Colin Macs Mom]

How old is she?

[babynat]

5 months.

[Colin Macs Mom]

In that case, I think she's getting too much daytime sleep, plus the morning section of your day needs some adjusting IMO. You want to be on a 4 hour EASY, and what you're doing now is more like 3. There are sample routines in the EASY forum for each age range if you want to check that out. But I would shoot for something more like this -

   6-6:30 awake
E 7:00 nurse
A 7:30
S 10:00 nap

   11:30 awake
E 11:30 nurse
A 11:45
S  3:15/3:30 nap

   4:45/5:00 awake
E 5:00 nurse
A 5:15
   6:30 bedtime routine (bath, massage, pjs, nurse, but she is awake when she goes in to her crib)
S 7:00

[momofclaire]

YEP I agree with Jessica.  Too much daytime sleep.  Let us know how it goes.

[babynat]

Jessica and momofclaire,

Thank you so much.  I have adjusted her routine and will see where we go from there.  I really appreciate your thoughts.  I do have one question though - if she takes a feed around 4 am, should I wait the 4 hours before nursing her again, i.e. 8 am?  Last night, she had a dream feed at 10:30 p.m., then nursed at 4 a.m.  I waited until 8 a.m. to nurse her again. 

Thanks,
Heather

[momofclaire]

Maybe try to do her dreamfeed a little earlier so if she is going to wake for a feed it will be a little earlier that way she will be hungry when she wakes. Just a thought.

[Colin Macs Mom]

Yeah, I would give that a try.

[Haleysmom]

I have to chime in here.  I have a 5month old going through some nightwaking issues too.  I am confused by some advice here.  Do you really think you could go from 1.5 awake time to 4 hours?  Also--one the schedule suggested she would be going from 11:30 to  5:00 to eat?  I know my 5 month old couldn't do that!  I think the only real way to limit day sleep is if your lo can handle some more awake time.  I think in my case my lo needs a bit more day calories and could maybe stand to cut 1/2 hour of day sleep, but I couldn't see much more at this point.  If she is waking at night and staying awake--wide awake and playing then I definitely think there is too much day sleep, but if she wants to sleep but is waking it may be more of a sleep cycle issues or needing some more calories.  Also--unless you want to change the time of your feedings everyday I would suggest just picking a start time for every day and feeding then.  I use 7am and if my lo is still sleeping then I wake him.  If I just fed him at 5am then I just sort of top him off and go on our 4 hour easy schedule from there.  Just some thoughts.  I was confused by some advice you were given-- I know my 5 month old couldn't handle some of those changes!!  Good luck!

[Layla]

Babynat - at 5months, the av A time is around 2-2.5hrs. Most still have a catnap. I do think you need to extend the A times a little but at 5months, my lo could only handle 2hrs of A time and she is still only just now able to do 4hrs in the evening. 4EASY is more to do with the feeds but if you are BF, it is very common for them to be on a 3hr schedule. I think you should aim for naps at 8:30, 12.30 & catnap at 4.30pm with bedtime at 7ish. The A time in the morning is usually shorter than other A times and my lo could not do full 2hrs in between the catnap and bedtime so her A time in the evening was the shortest (only 1.5hrs).

hth
Layla

[babynat]

Thanks Layla.  That does help.  She's good for awake time of about 2.25 hours.  Your recommendation for naptimes is just what we had planned.  I followed it yesterday and it worked.  She still awoke at 2 am - that must be out of habit.  But, sometimes its 1 am, sometimes 2 am.  So, I'm not sure.  I'll just keep working on it.  Regarding the catnap:  She went to sleep at 4:30, but I had to wake her at 5:30 b/c she didn't wake up.  Should I wake her after 45 minutes?  Or, is she supposed to wake up on her own? 

Haleysmom - thanks for the advice re: picking a time to start the day.  That will work for us too.  I just extended her awake time by aout 20 minutes.  She's not ready for more than that.

[Colin Macs Mom]

Heather, you're right - there is definitely too much time between feeds in what I posted. That's what I get for copying and then editing and doing it out of order.   

[Layla]

Catnap - I usually didn't let mine go past 1hr either and yes, she will eventually start waking on her won from it. It could be she is just catching up on sleep.

You know the waking could also be related to hunger. Is she taking a feed or do you try and settle her other ways? Some babies need a night feed up until 9months. Once solids are well established you can work on eliminating all night feeds.

[babynat]

To tell you the truth, when she wakes around 1 or 2 a.m., I give her a pacifier and she goes right back to sleep.  I think it is habitual.  She then wakes up about 3 am and I do feed her then.  So, all in all, for the evenings, she nurses at 5:30 p.m., 7 p.m., bottle of 4 oz. at 10-10:30 p.m. and then nurse her around 3 a.m. when she wakes up.  If I feed her at 1-2 am, she still wakes up at 3 a.m. to nurse.  I would be nursing her 2 times a night, along with a dreamfeed.  I know the paci is probably a prop right now, but she doesn't wake all night long to have it (Yet) and I am just trying to deal with each little issue as I can.  I just recently have been able to lengthen her 45 min. naps.  Sometimes she can do it on her own, sometimes I have to assist. 

I've been considering W2S for the 1 or 2 am waking.  I'm just not confident enough yet.  I don't know how much to stir her.  I tried it once and woke her up and I've been to afraid to try it again.

[momofclaire]

It sounds like w2s might be your best option.  You just stir her enough so that she moves a little or her breathing changes and then leave.  It may take 3-5 nights for the habit to be broken.  If you wake her fully then use shh/pat to get her back to sleep.