At a loss for what to do next...just want to give up...

[dsavcom]

I'm feeling very sad and deflated.  I dedicated 2 plus weeks to helping my ds learn to fall asleep without being rocked (for naps) nursed (for bed) or using a soother or swaddle (we still do one arm though, but he gets it out when he moves around). 

We taught him to sleep through the night, and after a few days he slept through for 8 nights!!  I did nothing..we barely left the house...I dedicated every moment to watching his clues and helping him through this.  There was a lot of crying, but I stayed by his side every second.  I deeply believed it would be worth it, I thought it would make everything better for both of us, but now I feel like we're back at square one.

We would do our routine, lay him in his crib, and stay by his side with a hand on him (otherwise he just rolled over and played...we left him a few times, but he just continued to play for 20 plus mins, but didn't cry).  In a few days he was falling asleep withing 10-20 mins and would nap at least an hour (used to often only sleep 35 mins).

Now it's all messed up again.  He has started waking at night, waking early in the am, it's very hard to get him to take a nap, and his naps are getting short again.  I just want to give up!  I feel like all our efforts were for nothing, and I don't know where to go from here.  I know I have to start leaving the room too, but I don't know how to do this because he just plays.

This is the routine we aim for....(this was working, but since he's waking early again and naps are getting shorter it's often different)  We aim for 3 hours A time max.

Wake up 7am - 7:30 - BF
(has started waking earlier than this though - around 5-5:45 the last few days.  We leave him til 7 unless he cries for 10 min, then we go in and try to put him back to sleep til wake up time.  This morning he was up for the day at 5:10, I nursed him at 6:30 and he went back to sleep at 7:05 til 8:30 - I held him down til 8:10 and the rest of the day sucked!!!  Refused naps)

Breaky - 8am - BF after (we aim for 1 hr after wake)

Nap 1 - 10am

Wake 11:30 (don't think that's ever actually happened, but sometimes he's slept for an hour, or a bit more)
BF when wake

Lunch 12:30 - BF after (this is a tough one...I BF when he wakes from nap, and ideally lunch would be 1hr later, but since his naps are short, there's sometimes a long time between BF and lunch)

Nap 2 - 2ish

Wake 3:30ish (again...this is the target, not the actual)
BF when wake

Dinner 5pm

Bath 5:50

Books 6:00

Bottle 6:10 (started this b/c I always felt like I didn't have enough milk and it was a lot of stress for me and my ds)

Asleep 6:30 (falls asleep awake in crib)

Until the last 4 nights or so, he was sleeping through.  We don't do a dream feed.

He is 7 months old.  There's a bunch of stuff going on developmentally wise...started crawling last week, started standing in his crib on the weekend, and is now pulling himself up all over the house.  He may be teething too, but I'm not sure yet...just guessing that this might be why things are changing.

Questions:

1 - How do I attack the nap situation.  It isn't working anymore to sit by the crib and keep a hand on him...he just cries.  How do I do our routine, put him down and then leave the room?  I don't know how to do this to ensure he sleeps.  When I leave, he just plays and usually doesn't cry.  What do I do?  Shhh/pat doesn't work, and he hates pu/pd (plus he isn't crying so it seems weird to do this).  This is my most important question right now.  What I need is instructions on an apporach...a procedure and steps to follow please.

2 - How do we get him to sleep later in the am?  We've tried earlier bedtimes here and there (especially on bad nap days)...any other suggestions?

3 - How do I extend his naps?  I have tried holding him down during the jolts, sometimes it works, sometimes not.  I've tried shh/pat...sometimes works, sometimes not.  More often than not...he wakes up and that's it...no getting him back to sleep.  His eyes just pop wide open, no drowsy wake up.  There's been days I've spent more time in his room trying to get him to sleep than we have doing anything else combined (one day I was only out of there for 1.5 hrs...I'm getting exhausted and frustrated).

4 - How do I get him to start sleeping through the night again?

I really don't want to give up on him...it's our fault that we're in this mess, but I'm nearing my end.  It's been over a month of constant training now, and I've barely been going out at all.  I dont' think that's good for either of us, but I made this my #1 priority.  I'm not sure how much longer I can emotionally handle this, especially since I feel like we're regressing.  Please, please, please help.  I need some new ideas, and some motivation to keep going.  I really thought things would get better, and that we had this fixed, and now I'm at a loss again.  Please help me...I love our son and I know it's our fault, not his.  I just want the crying to stop and I want him to get the sleep he needs.

Sorry for the ramble, I just have a lot of feelings right now.  Thank you so, so very much, I really appreciate any help.  I hope I've provided all the info you need.  If not, please just feel free to ask.

Good luck to everyone, I'm sure one day this will all barely be a memory.

Cheers,
d

[nicolas]

Hi d,
I am a total rookie, but i just wanted to respond so you know we are out here.  I'mso sorry you are feeling stuck- especially after putting so much time and energy into EASY.  I know that I have great days and awful days, and on the awful ones, it seems like the effort isn't worth it.  My son is only 3 months, so we are in different boats.  I think all the energy you put into EASY was completely worth it- even if he has rebelled recently.  Regarding question one, I don't have instructions or technique, since I'm still learning, and it also sounds like you are doing a great job, but it almost sounds like he is basically not tired.  I know the timing of my naps made a huge difference in whether it was an easy put down or not.  Have you tried keeping him up for  2 hours?  (that may be too long, or against some 7 mo. old rules that i am unaware of.)  Wish I could be of more help.
The best advice I can give you is to have your partner buy you a nice massage at a spa.  j

Good luck, and I personally think all moms (even the angel baby moms who succeed easily at EASY must go through a few off weeks.) It can't mean you are doomed to it being off forever.

take care!
liana, nicolas's mom

[MargaretC]

Don't have any truly constructive advice ( I bow to Stacy on that !! ) just wanted to encourage you and give you a big cyberspace hug.(((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))) For comparison, DD Gracie is 6.3wks, here's our day:

7am rise and bottle

8.30am Solids

9.15am put down for nap

11.30am wake

12pm solids

1pm bottle

2pm nap

4pm wake

5.30pm solids

6pm bath, massage

6.30pm bottle

7pm bed

In perspective, Gracie has been BW from about 2 mo and is a Textbook baby. However, the last 4 wks have been wobbly because she's developing fast and teething, that could be throwing your LO. HTH. Make sure you're looking after yourself too, it sounds like you need a break xx

[yaya]

Please please dont feel this way, i totally understand,....could have written ur post myself! Just wanted to ask if u've considered health or dev issues? sometimes teething or sa can totally mess up sleep.
Post a few more details so we can help u sort it out

[dsavcom]

Hi everyone!

Wow, thanks so much for all your replies, I really appreciate them  Last night went much better, so I'm feeling a little refreshed today...let's see how today goes now.  He does have lots of developmental stuff going on too, so it could just be bad timing with the fact that we were just starting to establish healthy sleep/routine.

Important Questions: 
1 - If he wakes early from a nap...do I keep him up til next nap time, or put him down after a set A time?  This site seems to say different things in different places. 
2 - Also, do I feed him right away, or wait til E time as per my schedule?
3 - If he wakes from nap early, do I try to put him back to sleep, or leave him be and see if he can do it on his own?
4 - In Tracy's instructions to get on a 4 hr EASY, she says to wake at wake time, even if they're still asleep or have had a short nap.  Is this right?  How do I make sure he doesn't get overtired?  Do I then put him down at the next S time, or when he shows sleepy signs.  I'm very confused about this as I thought the most important was for him not to get overtired.



I've been discouraged from the nights and early wakes since Monday, so my notes aren't as detailed as they were the two weeks prior...here's some examples of actual days...(starting Thursday and going backward)  Please keep in mind that I've been sitting beside him with a hand on him til he falls asleep for all naps.  Then I sit there for the entire nap to hold his legs and one arm (other one's swaddled) down during jolts.

This week

Thursday (yesterday...not a good day)
5:10 - Wake, tried to put back to sleep
6:30 - BF
6:50 - back in crib
7:05 - asleep - I stayed til 8:10
8:30 - wake (1 hr 25 min - I consider this a continuation of night sleep since he woke at 5:10)
8:40 - BF
?? - Solids (didn't write down time)
9:30 - wind down
9:50 - in crib - I stayed - he cried til 10:50.  I got him up, had a shower and got dressed (I litterally broke down...my hubby had to leave work and come take care of me...I'd just had enough...not a good day)
11:30 - BF (he didn't want to eat) - went for a car ride
12:00 - asleep
1:30 - wake (1 hr 30 min) - BF but too distracted (we were in a parking lot)
1:45 - solids in a restaurant
2:30 - bottle in car (about 3 oz)
4:15 - bottle in mall (about 3 oz)
5:00 - solids
5:45 - bath
6:00 - bottle (7 oz)
6:30 - asleep
6:55 - woke, fed another 1 oz
7:30 - woke, but put himself back to sleep - didn't hear from him til this morning at 7:15 which hasn't happened since Saturday morning.


Wed
7:20 - Wake (was up from 2:30 - 4:15 Tues night)
7:30 - BF
8:30 - Solids
9:30 - wind down
9:50 - in crib
10:00 - Asleep, I stayed and held him down during jolts
11:10 - Wake (1 hr 10 min nap)
11:30 - BF
12:30 - Solids
1:30 - wind down
1:50 - in crib, cried til 2:40
2:50 - wen for car ride
3:00 - asleep - woke once for 3-4 mins
4:05 - wake (1 hr 5 min nap)
4:10 - BF
5:00 - solids
5:50 - bath
6:10 - bottle (10 oz)
6:45 - asleep
7:30 - woke - on and off crying
7:46 - went in room to shh/pat
8:14 back asleep


Tuesday
5:45 - wake
6:25 - put himelf back to sleep
6:50 - wake
7:00 - BF
7:50 - solids
8:30 - wind down
8:50 - in crib
9:05 - asleep - stayed for jolts
9:50 - wake (45 min nap)
11:20 - BF (may have BF before this too, but don't know as I didn't write anything down)
12:00 - solids
1:10 - wind down
1:20 - in crib
1:30 - asleep
1:55 - wake (25 min nap)
Stopped taking notes for the day


Mon (only wrote down naps for Monday)
5:45 - wake - tried to put back to sleep
7:00 - BF
8:40 - asleep
9:15 - wake (35 min nap)
12:40 - asleep
1:55 - wake (1 hr 15 min nap)
6:00 - asleep

Didn't record on weekend as things were going well.

When things were better (last week)

Friday
7:10 - wake and BF
8:00 - solids
9:40 - wind down
9:50 - in crib
10:05 - asleep
11:25 - wake (1 hr 20 min)
11:30 - BF
1:15 - solids (late as was out)
1:45 - wind down
1:55 - in crib
2:30 - asleep
3:00 - wake (30 min)
stopped recording for the day


Thur (I think this was our best day EVER!!!  Totally textbook!)
6:15 - wake
6:20 - BF
7:15 - solids
9:00 - wind down (early b/c woke up early)
9:15 - asleep
10:40 - wake (1 hr 25 min)
11:00 - BF
12:20 - Solids
1:30 - wind down
1:45 - asleep
3:15 - wake (1 hr 30 min)
4:00 - BF
5:00 - solids
5:50 - bath
6:20 - bottle
6:50 - asleep


So those are some samples.  Generally it seems from my notes that the morning nap is about 3 hrs from wake up, and tends to go well (but I am still holding him down and shh/pat sometimes if he wakes early).  The afternoon naps haven't seemed to consistently work themselves out yet and are sometimes still as short as 25 - 35 mins.  The odd time they've been longer.

We took away the cat nap as it was a struggle, and I wanted to focus on establishing a consistent routine, with longer naps.  Thought it might confuse stuff if I threw in a cat nap here and there as it would be a process (he rarely just falls asleep if we're out, so I'd have to try to put him down for a nap...the fight would probably be longer than the nap).

Ok, well hope that helps.  Thanks for all your help.

d

[yaya]

WOW, congrats to you, you put A LOT of work in! I'll let the experts advise you on the routine but my thinking is maybe the fact that ur holding him still to sleep and staying there and seeing him through the jolt , is creating dependency, I know this from experience Did you say your LO is 7mos? I think he probably can manage more independent sleep at this stage. Have u tried w2s for naps?

[dsavcom]

Hey all,

I don't think I was clear about how I was "holding" him.  He's in his crib, lying down, but I just have my hand on top of him to keep him from rolling over and playing.  This was working, and he was falling asleep within 10-20 mins (whereas if I left him, he'd just roll and play), but now he's fighting that too. 

Is this still considered holding?  Regardless, I want to stop doing this, and I am trying it today.  I just don't know how to go about just putting him down and leaving the room.  He hates pu/pd and shh/pat doesn't always work.  Regardless, I want him to fall asleep on his own without shh/pat being his prop.  I just don't know how to do it.

Thanks,d

[dsavcom]

Hi Stacy,

Thanks so much for your reply, you've been a great help.  Do you think he's too old for pupd too?  I don't mind letting him roll and play, I just know he's not going to play and then go to sleep is all.  I know I need to help him learn how to do that though, just not sure how to.

Today I tried leaving the room.  He played for quite a while.  Morning nap played for 40 mins then started crying...pm nap played for over an hour, then started crying.  Both times I tried to just go in, calm him and leave.  Eventually, my hubby went in and ended up shh/pat to get him to fall asleep. 

So, he still fell asleep with someone in the room, so I guess it was a bit of a waste.  The morning nap lasted only 30 mins, but instead of helping him back to sleep, I left him to see if he'd do it on his own and he didn't.  He's finally asleep for PM nap now...hubby is holding him down to get him through jolts and hopefully get him to sleep at least 1 hr.  We'll probably do an earlier bedtime tonight.

So it sounds like I don't go in if he's just squaking or kind of cyring.  Do I wait til it's a full out wail?  Do I go right away then, or leave him for a few minutes?

What if I go in and can't settle him down.  Do I still leave?  If not, how long do I stay for?

How long do I keep doing this for before I just get him up?  Right til the next E time? 

If he falls asleep, do I wake him up for E time, or just let him keep sleeping? 

If he doesn't fall asleep, when do I put him down again?

And just to confirm...if it's a short nap I'm supposed to NOT wait til the next scheduled S time right?  Just watch his clues.  How do I get him on a schedule if I'm doing this though?

Thanks a million.  I'm so glad I have hubby here today to help...I still feel lost and have been focusing on this for so long (4 weeks now) that I'm about ready to lose my mind.  You guys are so great too, thanks so so so much.  You make it seem possible that this too shall pass.

Cheers,d

[yaya]

I totally agree with stacy, in fact this is the prob we had/have. I was under the impression T was falling asleep independent but in reality he wasnt as still needed to be 'held down' (for the same reason as ur LO). THis means it IS a prop. The only way he can learn is to do it himself, I feel like u,I want to 'help' or 'teach' him but in doing so then u create a prop. Trust me my LO takes a long long time of rolling about and we are at the stage now where I have to let this go on even though it make sme panic that he will get overtired or nap times will be messed up etc.
I totally get where your coming from so HUGS sweetie , we are in the same boat. If you want independent sleep tho, U NEED to see it through! Only tip I can give is the more i interact with T the harder it gets. I stay in the room as he isnt ready for wi/wo but i leave him to it and totally ignore him. I does work

[dsavcom]

Hey guys,

Thanks again for all the support.  Big hugs to you too yaya...this is so hard, thanks for your words of encouragement. How old is your LO?

Stacy - How do I know the mantra cry.  I've been trying to listen for it, but I can't seem to tell the difference.  I've read the FAQ about the mantra, but all his cries sound level and monotone to me...heck, I don't even know what a mantra sounds like...hehe.  Plus, he rarely ever actually cries.

The only reason we've been holding him through jolts is because this site explained that as one of the wake to sleep methods to help extend naps.  Why are you suggestion we shouldn't do it?  I thought it was to help him learn how to put himself into the next sleep cycle.  I'm scared not to because he takes such short naps, and he's bound to get overtired.

This morning

6:00 - Wake and BF
7:30 - Solids (late b/c hubby took for a walk)
8:30 - in crib
He rolled/played/cried til 10:00 when I got him up to BF.  Then he went back down around 10:30ish - back in crib
11:25 - Asleep (yyeeeaaahhh!!)
12:00 - woke (35 min nap). Solids.
1:20 - Seemed tired, so put back down

It's now 2:25 pm and he's still playing and doing a bit of "complaining."  But I don't go in unless it's a cry, right?  Even if an hour goes by and he's still just kind of squaking, or playing?

How do we keep going like this is he takes so long to fall asleep (basically 3 hrs this morning) and takes such short naps.  He's going to get overtired and then this will never work. 

Hubby wants to follow the clock...you suggested his clues.  Is clues the best?  Hubby's afraid not following the clock would just confuse him.  What do you think?

Thanks again,
d

[dsavcom]

Sorry to post right away again...but I have no idea what to do and my husband and I are at each other's throats.

Do I just litterally keep him in bed basically all day til he sleeps? 

It's now after 3pm and I just got him up to BF him.  Let him play for a few minutes in the Living Room and then back to bed.  My hubby thinks it's ridiculous not to do anything all day and wants to just take him for a walk or something.

What if he NEVER sleeps???  Is his little life really going to just consist of laying in his crib playing/crying and getting up every 4 hrs to eat?  I'm going to lose my mind...I don't think I can do this, especially with my hubby yapping at me about how stupid this is.  Am I really ok with him basically not napping at all???

What do I do ladies?  Am I doing it right?  I'm so scared I'm doing this wrong...it does seem a bit crazy and I don't feel like we're getting anywhere.

Thanks again, so sorry to be taking up so much of your time...I'm just constantly second guessing myself, and I swear this is going to lead to a divorce!

d

[MargaretC]

Oh sweetie, I so feel for you right now !! One of your earlier posts said "this too will pass" - it will ( i haven't met any 6yr olds who roll about in cots etc !!! ) I know it's driving you insane - and I can relate to the husband thing - been there !!! I agree with Stacy and suggest you keep writing everything down  - I know it drives you nuts after a while but even on the good days WRITE! That way you can id a pattern. You sound a bit like me - a Textbook Mum. Thank goodness Gracie *seems* to be a textbook baby!! The times she changes I get so stressed so I can relate a little. As for watching the cues, I agree with Stacy-but make it a minimum of 2.5 hrs as my DD rubs her eyes at 8.30am but will go to 9.30 before needing nap. Is he a very active baby? Maybe doing more physical stuff with him might help ( sorry if you're already doing that with him !!) You could check the A boards for advice - swimming ? Personally, I would keep him outta bed for that A time, but put in bed after - say - 3 hrs, if still awake?? My other suggestion is Y. Honey, you and your husband need a break from baby. Anyone you can trust to watch him for even 1.5 hrs while you and husband go for a coffee together? I know that at a very bad point early on, a BW friend came in, whisked my (screaming) DD out of my arms and insisted we left the house. It helped SO much (ok, i sat in our coffee shop and sobbed for an hour but at least it gave me and DH time to comfort each other !  ) Make sure it's someone who knows what you are trying to achieve with LO - you don't want to come back to him fast asleep in someone's arms and them looking quite smug ( yes, mother - that's you I'm talking about !!) Lots of hugs coming your way xxx

[yaya]

I agree,play with the A times, more, less etc till u find what works, My son is really tough with respect to this, too much and hes overtired too little and hes not tired enough. the A time in the morning is often the shortest, my DS took really good am naps when he was still having 2 so i didnt need to extend there, I did however need to cut back the nap time so he'd sleep for the pm nap and then eventually we had a really short am nap and transitioned to 1 nap.

Stacy gave u a great explanation re: the jolts, at this age they're arent really jolts, the y just shuffling at the change of a sleep cycle and until he learns he needs to hold himself still rather than u, he'll keep needing u to hold him down (this is exactly where i'm at right now)

HANG IN THERE!!

Ps totally get u on the DH thing, its very very stressful