8 month night feeds again. Dreamfeed causing night wakes?

[traineeparent]

My 8.5 month old DD has been waking in the night for feeds a lot in the last couple of months. She always used to sleep through till 6-6:45.  We had family to stay for 6 weeks so this may have upset her a bit. They left last week.   I think she had a big growth spurt 6 weeks ago so I moved her to 3 solid meals.  It’s been almost every other night now that she wakes.  Usually it’s been 4 or 5am but 3 of the last 4 nights it’s been 2.30am, 1.45am  and 12:30 which is crazy – how can she be hungry then?  (Twice she was hungry and I fed her, last night I gave her back her lovie and she went back to sleep).  I’ve been moving the Dreamfeed earlier in order to eliminate it and I’m now up to 9.30pm.   Is this causing her to wake more?  (The night she didn’t wake I was out and had to feed her later at 9:50 instead of 9:30. That night she slept till 6:30). 

I’m wondering if I should go cold-turkey on the Dreamfeed?  To make it harder our clocks go back this weekend  – end of Southern Hemisphere summer.  (I'm doing feeds & naps etc 15 mins later each day for 4 days).

She was always a chronic 45 min napper but that’s slowly come right since she was 6 months old. With the family here and going away on holiday she’s been doing lots of short naps,  but it seems to be coming right again.

Occasionally she’s been waking from overstimulation and I can sh-pat her back to sleep. A few of these wakings were from rolling over/getting stuck, but that seems to have stopped.   I always try to shush-pat her, but she’s definitely hungry and won’t have it.   During the day her 11am and 3pm feeds are definitely getting smaller.

I should add -  In the last week or so several times she's woken sometime between 9.30 and 10pm, I guess from overtiredness from the 45 min naps.  I just feed her since I'm going to DF her anyway.

I’m wondering if I should just go cold-turkey and drop the dreamfeed?  Or perhaps try to reduce number of minutes feeding but I think that could be hard with breastfeeding.  All feeds are breastfeeds.

Here’s the routine.

7:00 wake up (Often wakes 6.15 – 6.45)
7:00   BF
8:30   Solids - Breakfast
9:30   Nap (Usually 1 ¼ hrs, sometimes 45 mins)
11:00/11:15 BF
12:30 Solids - Lunch
1:30   Nap (Usually 1 - 1 ¼ hrs, sometimes 45 mins)
3/3:30  BF
5:30   Solids - Dinner
6:00   Bath
6:30   BF
6:45   Bedtime wind-down
7:00   In Bed. Usually asleep by 7:20
9.30     Dream Feed

DF was originally 10:30 but have worked back in 15 min intervals.
If she does 2 short naps, or wakes from the 2nd nap earlier than 3pm then I try to put her down at 6:45 instead of 7.

Should I – get rid of the DF quicker? cold turkey?
-   change her routine?
-   put her to bed later?  She goes to sleep much quicker now that she doesn’t have a late afternoon catnap – cut that out at 7.5 months. (Used to take 45 mins to get to sleep ).
-   I breastfeed so I can’t do the water-down trick.  Are there alternatives?


How old is your child?  8.5 months
What’s his/her daily routine? see above
What’s nap routine?  same as bedtime routine.
How long are naps?  Usually 1 ¼. Sometimes 45 mins
What's bedtime routine? Time?  Close curtains, play music, read book. Bed.
Do you bottle or breastfed?? Breastfeed
How much? or how long?  5-10 mins.
If breastfed.. one side or both?? (at each feed) Both sides
How many wakes per night?  1-2.   1st at 9.30 sometimes.  2nd at 2.30 or 4/5am.  Nightwakings are 2 out of every 3 nights.
What’s your LO like when waking at night? How long is he/she up?   Crying.  Still cries if I pick her up.
When you go to him/her is she fussing or crying? Or is it a mantra cry?   Usually crying.
What have you tried to settle??  Try sh-pat.  Doesn’t usually work unless was just overstimulated.  Try pick up, comfort and put down.
What do you do for A time and how long is it?  2.75 – 3 hrs.   Play with toys, read books, music class, mothers group.
Are there developmental issues such as teething or milestones?  Rolling.
Have you introduced cereal? Why, how much, and how many times a day? (for LO’s under 6 months)
Do they have a prop? If so what is it? No
Do they have a lovie? Yes a muslin cloth square (I put a few extra ones in her cot as well in case she loses it).
 
I would be grateful for any suggestions.

[momofclaire]

At her age I think you should drop the df.  It often disrupts sleep more than helps after about 7 months. 
If she is having short naps I would try to lengthen those to avoid an overtired baby.  I don't think she is hungry at night but perhaps needing to eat in order to resettle herself.  If you notice her day feeds getting less and night ones getting more you should try to reverse that.  Offer more during the day and less, maybe none at night.
Hope that helps
Myia

[Colin Macs Mom]

LOL, we posted at the same time Myia.

Yep, that DF could be your problem. Tracy believed that around 7.5 mo the DF would interfere with sleep cycles. At this stage I would either just quit with it and offer a top up before bed, or reduce the minutes.

You also might consider adjusting naps a bit as well. Her A time at the end of the day is quite long so you  might try and push the naps forward a little bit to cut that back.

[EsMum]

Traineeparent, I hope you don't mind me jumping on to your post - I'm going through a similar thing with my 8.5 mo daughter.  She has never slept through the night and I've realised her nightwaking has gone from hunger to habit.  Last night she woke 6 times through the night.  She doesn't seem to really wake fully, however if I go in to try and settle her and not pick her up to feed her she starts crying loudly.  She falls asleep as soon as she starts to nurse but will eat for up to 20 minutes that way.  She is asleep when I put her back in bed.

My LO has no trouble settling herself to sleep/back to sleep during the day, it is just at night, and even then she will sometimes wake and settle herself back to sleep quickly.  Is the best way for me to break this habit just to go cold turkey and put up with a few nights of crying?  We tried ignoring her once when she woke, then after a while my husband went in to settle her and she was awake crying for over 2 hours!!!  And if I go cold turkey, can anyone suggest a way to get her to eat more through the day?  She is on 3 solid meals and I still BF 4-6 times a day but she won't nurse for more than 5 minutes at a time, but at night she will sometimes stay on for up to 20 mins.

Again, I apologise for adding my question to this post but I would really like a full night's sleep some time soon!

Thanks,
Michelle

[traineeparent]

Hi there ColinMac'sMom and momofclaire.  Thanks very much for the advice.  I’ll drop the dreamfeed from now on and see what happens.   

Last night (before I got your replies) I decided not to dreamfeed. However she woke at 10, presumably from overtiredness. (I didn’t think she was really overtired - she’d had 2 good naps). I fed her anyway – one side only - and she then woke at 2.30 and I fed her but only one side.  She then woke at 6.45.   Tonight it’s 11pm now, I’m not going to dreamfeed, and if she wakes I’ll try to shush-pat her back to sleep.  She’s done a brief mantra a couple of times but so far not woken up.   

I thought that she could resettle herself without a feed most of the time –  sometimes I hear her do a brief mantra cry for a few seconds at night and she goes back to sleep.   But if she’s been really really overstimulated she sometimes wakes and usually I can pat her back to sleep.  It’s pretty tough if she refuses though – I try to put her on her side and rub/pat her back  - and she goes back onto her back and keeps crying.  I really don’t want to do pupd unless it becomes a last resort.   

I’ll try to get more food into her during the day but that’s hard.  Do you think she might be getting too much solids and not enough milk?  Or vice versa?   Here we’re told to feed solids before milk at 9 months so I might start doing that soon.   Should I feed more often all day or just cluster feed at night?

Yes I’ve been trying to push her naps forward so that there’s not such a long time till bedtime.  I have to do it gradually though otherwise I get a 35 min nap from overtiredness.   (Going on what I’ve read here that 35 mins = overtired. 45 mins – undertired. Do you agree?)  She’s suddenly taken a big leap and can do 3 hrs A time comfortably.   I used to try extending short naps if she woke crying, and I was successful a few times but not these days so I don’t bother any more. When she’s awake she’s awake!     I never got WTS to work either.

Off to bed now. I’ll keep you posted.  Thanks again.   

[traineeparent]

Hi Michelle

Sorry to hear you’re having such a hard time – 6 wakeups sure is tough!  I wouldn’t leave her to cry though, not a real cry.

Does she fall asleep feeding when you put her down for the night?   If so that could be why she needs to be fed each time she wakes.   There’s a “Gentle Removal Plan” if she does. 
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52857.0
Have you tried shush-pat or pick-up-put-down to get her back to sleep?   I’ve found shush-pat is good unless she really puts up a fight, and that’s usually because she really is hungry….  Pick-up-put-down is really tough I’ve only done it a few times - getting her to sleep (at 4 months) but not for night wakes.

Does she seem to take a good feed during the day?  I’ve been told the average feed time for LOs our age is 3-5 mins each side, so she might have had a full feed anyway.   I find they’re often slower feeding at night I presume cos they’re more sleepy. 

Is she on 4 hr EASY?  I’ve read on this site that if they feed 4 hourly it can help prevent/stop the night waking.  It’ll also mean that she’s not snacking, but taking a full feed each time.  That way she might not wake up so much.   Having said that, my DD is on 4 hr EASY and is waking up!! I think I need to get the right amount of solids into her. 

I’ve read your other posts and my DD seemed similar to yours re the naps – they just suddenly came right at 6 months – though I still get days with short naps.

Hope that helps!  Keep us posted.

[EsMum]

Thanks for your reply, I hope you had a better night last night!

To answer your questions:

We don't let Ella cry.  If she whines or does her mantra cry we leave her, anything more than that we intervene.

No, she doesn't fall asleep nursing when I put her down at night, she goes to sleep on her own. 

Shh/pat used to work really well with her when she was younger and learning to fall asleep independently, however after not having to use it for a long time I find that now it doesn't work and just irritates her.

PU/PD works sometimes if she has trouble going down for her nap but I haven't tried it for her nightwaking.  I need to break the association with waking and food first, I think.

She does eat well during the day, though some days she doesn't seem interested in nursing very much at all.  I think my LO is a better eater during the night because there is nothing to distract her!  And yes, she is on 4 hour easy.

I still get days with short naps too...don't know why I always think I'm the only one this happens to...

Last night was a better one for us - she woke 3 times.  The first thing I tried was giving her a bottle with formula.  This didn't go down too well because she has never really taken to formula so I ended up nursing her, but I took her off the first time she stopped sucking and put her back in bed.  I did this for the other two times as well so the time spent nursing was cut down, plus she went back awake and went to sleep with no problems. 

Another goal is to increase her calories during the day.  I've started giving her cereal with formula instead of water.  When she woke at 7am today I nursed her until she lost interest but instead of stopping I changed sides and got a few more minutes out of her.  I hope that this combined with reducing night feedings will help break this fun habit...

Do you mind me asking where you are in the Southern Hemisphere?  I'm from Australia but live in Canada.

Thanks again!

[traineeparent]

Hi there

I didn't dreamfeed last night and she slept through till 6am!  I'm so pleased!   I just heard a few 3 second mantra cries around 10pm and that was it!  She fell asleep about 7.45 pm.

Since our clocks go back tonight and 6am becomes 5am, I put her back to bed and let her sleep till 8am (which will be 7am tomorrow).

Anyway we'll see what happens tonight.  Here's hoping it will happen twice in a row!

[momofclaire]

That is great!  I hope it continues.  Let us know how tonight goes, hopefully you won't need us anymore 

[traineeparent]

Yes hopefully she'll do it again!  Thanks all of you for all your help.     I shouldn't count my chickens though..... we'll see what happens tonight.

Michelle - I live in New Zealand.    Our clocks go back tonight.   It's hard trying to get extra food in isn't it, especially when they won't take it!  What's your routine re feeds?    Do you usually just feed one side?  I've fed both sides for ages now.  When she comes off I keep putting her back on till she comes straight off, i.e. has really finished.   I guess your body adjusts to whatever you do. 

Hope you have fewer wakeups tonight!

[stheo]

I am kind of in same predicament.... i have 5 mo DD that was sleeping fairly through the night 700-545, id feed and back to sleep until 800.. She went thru growth spurt and started waking at all times of night and pat/shh or paci had no results... so I uped her daytime feeds to 8oz instead of the usual 6-7 and that worked for awhile... now i dont know what is going on... she has reached a new milestone (rolling back to belly) and teething and the last week she has cut her feeds back down to 6oz and started waking at night again.... I have never done the DF bc she usually slept until 545 (10hr) and last night I fed at 1100 (5oz) and she woke up again at 330 hungry, pat/shh not working.. she has cereal 2x day... morning and afternoon and has been for over month so thats not new.... anyone have a clue whats going on.... is it the teething... milestone.... growth spurt.... any help would be wonderful..  she takes 45 min naps and have been trying to extend with pat/shh and most days get 1.25-1.5 hr.. our schedule looks something like this.

E- 800 formula
A-
S-1000 - 45 min to 1.15

E-1130-1200
A
S-100 ( 45 min to 1.25/1.5)

E-300-330
A-
S 400 -430 ( 45 mins)

E-500
A
S bath at 630, pjs bottle and bed at 700

im trying to transition to 4 hr easy but hard now that she takes less formula and is hungry at 3.5 mark... I cluster feed at bedtime..

[traineeparent]

Hi stheo

That sure is tough what you're going through!   I would say definitely don't introduce a dreamfeed. I've read lots of times on this website that it's not a good idea to introduce a dreamfeed for an older baby because it can interfere with their sleep cycles.   Best to just feed when hungry if they wake up. 

I'm afraid I can't really offer much more advice.  My DD went through a spate of night wake-ups, probably a growth spurt, now I'm not so sure.  I would keep working on getting her to 4 hr EASY. Just try holding out 5 mins each day perhaps.

Hope that helps.

[EsMum]

Hi Traineeparent, I hope things are going well!  How was the DLS change?  We put our clocks forward last weekend and it only took a day or so for her to get used to the change, thank goodness.

I fed Ella twice during the night last night, once at midnight and again at 5am - at least we're up to 5 hours between feeds!  She woke another couple of times but went right back to sleep.  

My routine re. feeds:

7am - wake, BF
8am - cereal w/fruit
9am - sleep

10:30/11am - wake, BF
12pm - veggies and fruit
1:45pm - sleep

3pm - wake, BF
5pm - veggies, cereal w/fruit
6:30 - bath, BF
7pm - bed

I also give her extra BF during the day if she wants it (that's not really often).  I was only doing one side at a time but have started offering the second side when she stops on the first and she's been eating twice as much!  

I love NZ - I have a good friend that lives in Tauranga on the North Island.  I've been to see her a couple of times and really enjoyed it.

Stheo, my guess is it is the milestones of rolling and teething that are interrupting your LOs sleep.  The advice I've seen for rolling is make sure you practice lots during the day (tires them out and gets it out of their system).  What we did to stop Ella rolling at night was roll 2 towels and put them under the sheet and put Ella between them, the towels positioned under her arms and down her body (does that make sense?).  I don't know if this is an approved method but it worked for us to stop her flipping and getting stuck, we just made sure her face was well away from the rolls.  After a couple of weeks she had worked out how to flip over and back again so we took the towels out at that point.  

We also battled with short naps, we still do on some days.  I tried EVERYTHING to extend naps and nothing worked, she just eventually figured it out herself.

Good luck!

[traineeparent]

Hi Michelle

Overall DD has adjusted to the DLS change ok.  I moved the feed, nap and bed times later by 15 mins over 4 days and it's been ok.  Made easier by the fact that  she seems to have done a big leap in A time. Up to 3 hrs plus now.  Mind you I've had 2 short naps today and also afternoon naps the previous 2 days...... .   So haven't really got that right yet....

Last night she woke at 4.45am which is 5.45 am by the old time.  Given she went to bed later, she hasn't lasted as long as the previous night, but can't complain too much.  Sounded like a hunger cry so I fed - just one side and she went back to sleep.  In the morning my body could feel that I hadn't fed as much that night - (i.e. quite engorged!! 

I'm finding it hard to get extra feeds into her, she's not interested at all.  I'm really not sure when to give solids re milk now.

We'll see what happens tonight!  I'll try cutting her off earlier if she feeds.

It's very nice around Tauranga isn't it. Nice beaches.

Hope things with your DD continues to improve!

[Little Lamb]

Hi Traineeparent - I love your username.  That's how I feel most days! 

I'm happy to have found this thread, I'm having the same problems.  Lots of nightwakings, inconsistent nap lengths, turning clocks back.  Sometimes I just can't figure out what is waking my dd.  She has never been and good sleeper and never slept through the night.  I was beginning to resign myself to the fact that I might not ever get a good nights sleep again!  We are making little gains, but I will definitely try to cut out the df and see how it goes.

I know a friend of mine offered a bottle of water for a few nights when she was cutting out all the night feeds and it worked for her.  I bf and my lo is a big girl so I am worried about not feeding her at all during the night, so I don't know if that will work for me.  Maybe I'm just a softee.

Keep us posted on your progress!