Please help-weaning pacifier & using shh/pat...not sure where to post!

[Maia&Lia]

I have a 4-month-old binkie addict. I started this morning with the weaning process. Per someone's advice, I'm using the shh/pat method instead of pu/pd since she felt that it was easier on the lo and parent, especially at such a young age.

Anyway, this morning I did our typical nap routine (with a few changes--no swaddle so that she could have access to her fingers and no binkie). I put her into her co-sleeper awake and walked out. A few minutes later she started to cry. I went in and started pat/shh with her. She escalated so I picked her up and did pat/shh over my shoulder. This continued for quite some time. It took a long time before she was able to find her fingers, but when she did she'd calm down a bit. I tried to put her back into the co-sleeper to have her settle in it, meanwhile continuing with the pat/shh. However, each time I put her down she'd start to escalate again. Eventually she ended up crashing out on my shoulder which was NOT the goal I was hoping to achieve. I put her into her bed and she woke up a little. I continued with the patting and she went back to sleep.

She napped for about 40 minutes. I got her up afterward since it was time for her next feed.

So, here are my current questions:
1. Can I pat/shh like that? How do I get her to settle better in the bed? Is it something that will just come with time?
2. When should I start the next nap? I'm going to watch for her sleepy cues, but I'm assuming that she'll be much more tired the next time around. Do I still want to limit her nap to 2 hours like I would with her typical EASY routine or can I let her get the extra sleep until her next feed?

Thanks for any help...and feel free to move this to the most relevant board as I wasn't sure if it should go to props, pu/pd or general sleep issues.

-Alessia

[Maia&Lia]

Our update:
Nap #2 took 1/2 the time of shh/pat for her to fall asleep. Of course, she found her fingers much more quickly this time around. I was able to get her into the bed again (after she fell asleep on my shoulder) and resettle her with shh/pat since she woke up and cried when I put her down. I got another 40 minute nap out of her and am currently listening to see if she'll settle herself back to sleep. I have a feeling I'll be back to more shh/pat shortly.

So, another question. During shh/pat, I found that she kept kicking her legs or more like straightening them out while I was holding her. Is that a sign of her trying to settle?

Better go. I think she needs some help.
-Alessia

[Zoey]

Hey you!

You don't want to replace one prop for another - not paci for sleeping on moms shoulder or needing mom to put her to sleep - know what I mean?  I think crying, and a lot of crying is a needed evil in this whole process.  My advice is to not pick her up, unless she is hysterical.  This is how I did it with pat/shh at the same age.  BY all means pick her up if she is freaking out but other wise, keep your pat/shh in the crib.  You want her to associate sleep with the crib, and falling asleep in the crib, not in your arms or shell need that always.

Also, are you planning to use a crib?  If yes, Id make that transition now.  Babies sleep better in their own space (my opinion, sorry co-sleepers) - adults make alot of noise when they sleep.  And if you are planning to move her, I think now is the time to do it.  it can certainly work in the co-sleeper but that's isn't something Im familiar with.

I would try to stay with your Easy as best you can.  Always wake for a feed, go by her cues for sleep.  If she wakes earlier from a nap, go pat/shh her and help her back to sleep.

Yes that kicking could definitely be a sign or settling, it also could be cause she isn't swaddled anymore - right?  Maybe swaddle her from armpits down and see if that helps.  They still can't really control their limbs well at 4m so sometimes they really need to be wrapped up.

HTH!
Zoey

[Maia&Lia]

Hi Zoey,
I absolutely know what you mean about having her associate falling asleep with her bed and I agree 100%. I realized yesterday afternoon that she just doesn't respond to pat/shh the way my first daughter did. Anyway, I ended up doing a little PU/PD for the beginning until I was noticing that she was settling more and then I did pat/shh with her in the co-sleeper. It worked like a charm.

Last night I put her down at 7:00 (took until about 7:15 for her to fall asleep so that I felt comfortable leaving). She woke at 10:15. I did 1 PU/PD and she started to settle so I pat/shh'd her. She kept jolting at each 10 minute mark and FINALLY by 10:50 was still enough that I was able to stop shhing and lifted my hand from her. She slept until 1:30 and then I fed her (I don't do dream feeds--long story). She went right back down without any pat or shh (which was wonderful for me because previously I'd nurse and then she'd still require the pacifier to fall back asleep). She woke again a few other times but just cried out and I would just put a hand on her and she'd settle again...no need for pat/shh or PU/PD. I was able to take my hand off within minutes each time. She then woke up around 6. I nursed and the PU/PD for her to fall back asleep. I was aiming for a 7 am wake-up. She fell back asleep around 6:30 and was up for the day at 7:15.

BRB.

[Zoey]

Sounds great!

Definitely use pupd it you have too - please be sure to read this:  https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?board=89.0 - its the FAQ section for pupd and will tell you exactly how to pupd if you need a refresher.

DFs dont work for everyone, no worries.

Just be sure as you get on, you help less and less at the falling asleep stage, you don't want her to need you to fall asleep.  Just be mindful as it seems to happen to a lot of people from what I read if they aren't careful.

You're doing great!  Keep at it, Ill check back later on.

Zoey

[Maia&Lia]

Sorry about that!
Yeah I read all the info on the FAQs board and re-read the chapter in my book. I don't make light of having to do something like this...so I want to be sure that I'm doing it all right.

I totally agree with you that it would be best to move her into a crib and into her own room BUT we have a bit of an issue with that. She doesn't have her own room. HA! We're actually in the process of buying a house (the looking phase) so things are on hold. Our bedroom is so, so tiny that we opted for the co-sleeper (which is a lot like a pack & play, but smaller). When we move, she'll get her own room and a crib to go with it. A similar situation occurred with our older one. We shared a room with her until she was 10.5 months old and to be quite honest with you, it never was an issue. And, she did perfectly fine once we moved and she got her own room--no extra night wakings or anything like that. I'm hopeful the same will happen with this little one. We'll see.

Anyway, I'm about to eat some breakfast before the next round of nap times occur. I'll post again soon.
-Alessia

[Zoey]

Thats fine then!  Keep me posted! 

Zoe

[Maia&Lia]

Whew, what a day so far!
The first nap went great. I was able to get her down with only a few PU/PDs and thought "I'll just stick in here and see if I can extend her nap". I scootched back on our bed so that I could sit comfortably until the next jolt and the bed creeked LOUDLY. Boom...she was awake and there was no getting her back down. Blah.

Second nap we ended up taking a 10 minute break after 40 minutes of doing PU/PD. So heartbreaking. Eventually I was able to get her down and she napped for about 35 minutes. Blah. Then, it was time for her next feed.

I just got her settled for her catnap. It also took a while for her to settle. I've realized that she is having a harder time settling now because she found her fingers somewhere in the past 2 days. Unfortunately she isn't coordinated enough to get & keep them in her mouth so she is getting super frustrated. If it weren't for that issue, I think we'd be smooth sailing because she settles so nicely with her fingers and a little pat/shh.

I'm going to post on the PU/PD board to see if anyone has any suggestions about what to do when your lo suddenly finds his/her fingers but isn't coordinated enough to keep them in. It seems like it might hinder progress because the association of "suck to sleep" isn't necessarily being extinguished. Does that make sense? With my oldest, it was never a problem because she found her fingers about 2 weeks AFTER we did PU/PD. The entire time she relied heavily on my pat/shh to help her settle. Hmm.

Alright, off to post before she wakes from her catnap and we start this cycle all over again.
-Alessia

[Zoey]

Mine found his thumb about 2 weeks after he was sleeping indep as well.

If you aren't swaddling anymore this too could be an issue.  You can try the Aussie swaddle, which will allow her to be swaddled and also suck her fingers - it also will kept her hands closer to her mouth and more contained.   https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=1439.msg773602#msg773602  - maybe that will help.  While you can't really keep her from sucking her hands, I would stay away from helping her do that as well.  Just so you don't into a habit of her needing you to do that for her, kwim? 

Good Luck!  Ill be here if you need me.  Let me know what pupd says.

Z

[Maia&Lia]

Hey Zoey,
Man, this is so frustrating! I posted on the PU/PD board but still haven't gotten any responses. When I think about the definition of a prop, I think Lia's fingers fit it to a T. Although I'm not giving them to her, she still doesn't have any control over them in order to self-soothe.

I feel like I'm at a standstill. I think I have 2 options:

1. Start swaddling again. Either Aussie style or regular and do PU/PD like that. Hope that she doesn't bust out of the swaddle (which she had been doing for nearly the last month). Wait until she is a bit older and has more control of her arms to unswaddle and maybe she'll find her fingers at that point without a problem.

2. Keep deflecting her hands from her mouth while doing shh/pat. Practice sucking during the day until she masters it.

Now, my issues with the options:
1. She started rolling at 2 months. She doesn't roll during her sleep, but I'm sure it is right around the corner. I definitely don't want to swaddle when she starts. Plus, she has been busting out so much lately that I was getting the sense from her that she wanted to be free (at least that is what happened with Maia). I did, however borrow some great swaddle blankets from a friend tonight. I may consider swaddling her up during her A time to see what she does. If all goes well, maybe try the next nap swaddled?!? Also, she has really been wanting to suck her fingers for a LONG time and has just recently started getting better at keeping them in her mouth. I don't want to take away her closest ability to self-soothe, ya know?

2. Not so easy to keep batting her hands down from her face while trying to comfort her, but at least it wouldn't confuse the issue further.

Any thoughts at this point?
-Alessia

[Zoey]

Definitely do not swaddle her, especially with the aussie if she is rolling.  In my opinion that is dangerous cause she could get stuck in a not so safe position - again others may disagree and this is your choice.

I think, you can't speed up or deter her from sucking her hands.  This is a skill and she will get better at it if she wants to suck for soothing.  If it were me, I'd not help her with them (soothing does not have to be sucking) - if she finds them great, if not great too.  Continue to not swaddle, and use pat/shh with pupd as needed.  If she finds them during your pupd session, thats ok, if she doesn't its ok too.  As you know, it can take up to two weeks for it to fully work - sometimes longer.  I would keep at it, and be as consistent as possible (I can't imagine doing it with two).

I don't think giving the paci back at this point would be fair, and it won't help her with her fingers.  You can absolutely practice during the daytime, at her A times and hope she improves with it.  Other may say help her find her fingers at sleep too, which is a choice you can make.  I don't think there is a right or wrong with this, really.

I hope this helps some - I am sorry its tough, hang in there! 
Zoey

[Maia&Lia]

Hey Zoey,
We've begun day 3 of no binkie...guess I'll give the update.

Lia woke up five times in the middle of the night. Two times she put herself back to sleep by sucking her fingers. Two times I fed her since her last feed was at 6 pm. (so, 1st night feed at 12:30 and 2nd feed at 5 am). And the fifth wake up only required that I put my hand on her back for her to resettle. Then, she was up for the day somewhere between 6:45 and 7 am. 

She also went down for her 1st nap without a problem. We did our typical routine and I snuggled with her while she sucked her fingers. I put her down and she put herself to sleep with a little shh/pat, as well. Unfortunately her nap lasted all of about 30-40 minutes and then she was up again. I tried to extend it. No luck.

Second nap of the day was also looking pretty good. She settled quickly after finding her fingers but then was up and down because she'd lose them. I finally got her asleep and continued shh/pat. In retrospect, I think I probably stopped too soon since about 10 minutes later she woke up. I don't know how I'm going to minimize the amount of time I spend shh/patting. Ugh. Anyway, I tried to get her back down but she wasn't settling at all and her nose was super snotty. I decided to take a break since she is sounding so hoarse from crying so much lately (not so much in the past day, but still).

So I guess I'm feeling a little more relieved?!? I wish she would either get her fingers consistently or stop going at them because the half way thing isn't working so well. And I totally agree with you...soothing doesn't have to be with sucking. In fact, my goal was to extinguish that connection and create a new one (like a lovey--which I've unfortunately abandoned because it was only keeping her more stimulated. I still use it during our story and hope that as she gets better & better at falling asleep independently then I can reintroduce it in her bed. I have found with my oldest,who adopted a lovey around 14 months, that it is awesome!).

Oh, the other thing I wanted to mention. I've started to find that she is settling better in her bed without PU/PD. I think now that she has found her fingers, picking her up only makes her lose them again. That feels like a step in the right direction, no?

Now I have to figure out what to do with her. Technically she should be sleeping, but her 5 am feed threw off her typical 7 am feed (she wasn't hungry) and so I ended up nursing her at 9 which was right before her 1st nap (where she slept for about 40 minutes). I then tried to extend...stopped after a bit of time for a break and put her back down. She woke up shortly thereafter with snotty nose and poopy diaper, etc. Do I attempt again for a 3rd nap in the same timeframe? Ugh. Otherwise we've got about 1 hr/20 min to stay up until the next feed & subsequent nap. Man today is loopy.

Alright, I'm off to change ANOTHER diaper. These kids. ha!
Thanks for your support!
-Alessia

[Zoey]

Hiya!

Want to show me your routine?  I'd love to take a peak.  Indicated where her feeds are and when you start your wind down routine.  Same thing happened with us, finding pat/shh worked better, over pupd.

Are you patting her all the way to sleep? 

I think when the day gets sloppy, try to watch her cues.  Also catnaps are fabulous lol and remember they are free!  You can get her to sleep anyway you want - so take advantage of that.  My best advice is to avoid her getting too overtired in the time frame before bed.

Let me see your routine.
Z

 

[celticmom]

it sounds like you are on teh right path- although I often feel the path is twisted with has many splits! My DD was taught with pu/pd, what was most important and a big turning point for us was putting her right down before she was calm. With every stage we would have a big regression on about the 3rd day.
It is worth the work now- I have to continually tell myself that to avoid pitfalls but I still get stuck

[Maia&Lia]

Ugh! Another 20 minute nap after nearly the same amount of time with pat/shh & 1 or 2 PU/PDs. So discouraging! Of course, she has never been a long napper. I certainly hope that changes soon. I'm BEAT.

So our routine (on a good day) is as follows:
6:30/7 am: Wake up & nurse
6:45/7:15-8/8:30 am: Activity time-includes diaper change after long nighttime and who knows what else. I'm usually taking care of breakfast for the toddler so she'll play contently with her feet on the floor or sit in the bouncy with us at the table, etc.
8/8:30 am: Start nap winddown-includes diaper change, saying goodbye to big sister, putting on sleep sack, reading a book, saying goodbye to Mr. Sun, turning on white noise machine and cuddling for a few minutes (typically 2-3). Total duration is usually about 15 minutes.
8:15/8:45 am: Nap. Typically it is only 45 minutes with lots of shh/pat or PU/PD afterward.

Cycle repeats. I usually nurse every 4 hours.

I can't remember what I did with Maia when we did PU/PD. I remember talking with a moderator on the phone and told her that I thought doing PU/PD to extend a nap that she wasn't developmentally ready to extend was cruel. She agreed with me and told me to do what I thought was best for Maia. I think a day later she extended her naps. I'm not sure if it was because of the few days of PU/PD that I did a week or so before hand or if it was because we had just hung blackout curtains...OR if she was actually ready to nap for longer than 45 minutes because she had gotten so good at putting herself to sleep independently.

Anyway, my point to all of that is that I feel like trying to extend these naps is so frustrating for everyone. Not only am I sitting in the bedroom ALL DAY LONG (which soon I will not be able to do because my husband will be back at work) but Lia is getting so hysterical from all of it. I think she needs a break, too. Ugh. I'm rambling. Sorry guys!

So it leaves me at the point of my routine. After the 1st 45 minute nap, I'll either try to extend her to the next feed or throw in the towel after about 15-20 minutes of pat/shh and then wing the rest of the day. I know that isn't super consistent but honestly I'm not sure that doing PU/PD to extend these naps is worth it in the long run...at least not until she is more likely to be ready developmentally OR that she has mastered falling asleep independently. In the meantime it just feels like torture for both of us.

Zoey, I've been thinking about the catnap thing and it just seems counterintuitive that you can have a freebie nap where you don't remain consistent. How do these little ones even know the difference?!? Especially mine who only has catnaps all day long!

Anyway, I'm sure I didn't answer your questions well. After attempting 4 naps already (and it is only 1 pm), I'm so frustrated and tired. I'm going to eat a little bit and try to relax before the next round.

Again, thanks for your help!
-Alessia