Didn't want to have to go here, but think its time. . .

[kim&savannah]

OK--I was really hoping that because I'd tried to implement good habits from the beginning (no feeding to sleep, put down before asleep, trying to extend naps so he's in the habit of taking good ones), I wasn't going to have to do any sleep training and Abe's sleep would naturally progress.

Well, here we are at 4.5 months and things are worse than ever.  Its gotten harder to extend his naps, he wants to snack all night long and he thrashes around like something is killing him, but I can't figure out what is wrong!  His sleep is very erratic--sometimes he'll take a great 2 hour nap, sometimes he wakes after 30 min.  Same at night--sometimes he sleeps for 3 hour stretches, but often he wakes after 1 hour--over and over again   He can usually be held off for one or two wakings before demanding to eat.

So, I need help figuring out what order to do things in. 

First, he uses a paci when going to sleep--so I guess I need to get rid of that, but he hasn't started sucking his thumb and I think he really needs the comfort--he goes to sleep on his own pretty easily most of the time.  I know some people make it work, but if he's waking so often, does that mean he's addicted?

Second, he really does seem to want to eat every 3-4 hours all night long--so I'd be ok feeding him that often if he'd just sleep in between, but I end up doing lots of paci replugs and he's still thrashing around like crazy--usually he ends up in our bed by 1 or 2 am and then I spend the rest of the night either trying to hold the paci in so he won't knock it out (I know, bad bad bad ) or feeding him every hour (I know, bad again )

And naps--I know 4-6 months is supposed to be the magic time, but seriously, it seems they are getting worse!  He was doing a long nap most of the time for his first nap and his second was also often long.  Now, its maybe one good nap every 3 days.  He's napped in the swing a lot, but even that isn't working anymore (I'm pretty big on Dr. Karp's 4th trimester, so I was ok with these "props" as he adjusted to the outside world, but I think he's past that now and they aren't working anyway.)  He has always been fine at going to sleep in his bed (and that's where he sleeps at night, until he come to our bed)--it was just easier to keep him asleep in the swing.

I am just so exhausted--honestly, I'm not sure how I can handle doing patt/ssh right now, but I also know that this isn't going to get better until I do something.

Sorry this is so long and I hope it makes sense.  I'm just looking for some fresh insight into the problems.

~Kim
   

[momofclaire]

Can you post his usual daytime sch? 

I think you should probably just pick one thing and start there. For me it would be extending daytime naps. 

[kim&savannah]

Sure thing--I knew I should, but I'd already written such a long post.

OK, so here is a rough estimate--our times vary from day to day because I don't wake him.

7:30 Wake, BF (hasn't been a great feed lately because he's snacking all night)
8:45 Nap--If good day, may last 2 hours, if not, wake at 45 min, sometimes can extend
10:45--Wake

11:00--BF--Try to hold off feeding, but especially if first feed was bad, he won't wait
12:30--Nap--usually wakes after 45 min--I used to easily extend it, but not lately unless I take him to bed with me (which I've done a few times the last week because I've been so tired.)

2:30 BF (this moves up if he doesn't go back to sleep)
4:30 Catnap--really hard to get him to go down lately

5:15/30 Wake, BF
6:30 Bath (not everynight), PJ's
7:00 BF
7:15 Swaddle, one song, bed

He's not on a really structured EASY--we always go in that order, but the times move around and the length between feeds varies quite a bit depending on his naps.  Its really hard for me to hold off his feedings if he wakes early--Not sure if he's just used to the pattern of sleep, eat, play, sleep, or if being awake more makes him hungrier--I know I'm hungry when awake in the middle of the night.

I'm not sure how to extend his naps anymore--uesd to just have to plug in the paci and then if he was in the swing, I'd stand there and push the swing for 20 min.  Now, he just starts howling most of the time and thrashing around, whether in the swing or in bed. 

~Kim

[momofclaire]

Kim, I think the first thing to do if you aren't on a good easy sch is to start to make it a little more consistant.  If his A times are pretty consistant then he will know what to expect and you will be able to read his cues more easily.  It sound like his bad naps are what causes the sch to be a little off.  Have you tried w2s to stop the waking at the 45 min mark?  I personnally had great success with that.


I know it might be tough the first couple of days but I would wake him at or very near the same time everyday.  Even now (15mo) I don't let dd sleep past 8:15 unless she is sick.  She wakes between 7:45-8:15 everyday.  I think this keeps her body on a "clock" so that she knows when to expect sleep and when to expect to eat and play.

[kim&savannah]

I've wondered how much the wake time matters--part of me knows that its always better to be consistant, but since our nights are so bad, its hard to want to wake him, YKWIM?  But maybe I just need to bite the bullet and pick a time--the hardest part is that I don't want him to wake too early, but some days he does wake before 7, so do I need to pick an early time, or is it ok to try to make it 7:30 (which would work out really well for us most days) and then just adjust on the days he wakes too early?

Now, here's a question--how do I make his EASY a set schedule if he's napping really short?  Do I keep him up until the next scheduled nap (ignoring his clues) or do I go by length of time (2 hour A time) and put him down by that?  He needs different length A times at different times of the day--only makes it about 1.25-1.5 hours before his first nap, but can go about 2 hours later in the day and even longer before bed sometimes (and has actually slept 3-4 hours after having a 3 hour A time before bed, so that not why he wakes up every hour at night.

Thanks so much for all your help--just having someone else to bounce ideas off of is great, and is giving me an idea where to start.

~Kim

[momofclaire]

I would say if he wakes an average around 7:30 then that is a good place to start.  If you pick that time, then what I would do is say that if he wakes at 7:15 you will get him up and start the day and won't let him sleep past 7:45.  (unless something crazy goes on)  So if he wakes at 7:00 and is crying like he needs you then I would go in and try to calm him in his crib using shh/pat.  I simply keep Claire in her room and calm until it is time to get up.  Obviously if he wakes at 6:00 then you will have to use some sleep training tools to put him back to sleep.  I will say that babies have natural sleep patterns so if you already know he's an early riser I wouldn't fight it too much.  The most important thing now, IMO, is to pick a time to wake in the morning that will be easiest for both of you. Once you get a good EASY going you can toy with wake time slowly.  Does all that make sense?

I wouldn't ignore his cues.  I would however really work on extending naps.  If you start with a wake time you can write all this down and watch for patterns.  Always watch for cues, it's the only way he has to communicate with you right now besides crying.  To extend A time I would exend slowly, like 5-10 min at a time until you get where you want to be.  It is typical that babies can handle longer A times as the day goes on, so if you notice at 1.25 hours he is yawning in the morning he may go 1.5 hours or 1.75 hours the next A time.  (those are just examples)  It is not good for a baby to have A times that are completly wacky (like that scientific word?)

Have you checked out some samply EASY sch?  That may help you a lot.  Here is the link.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=10385.0
Hope that helps a bit 
Myia

[kim&savannah]

Thanks again, Myai!  You've been such a great help!  Yep, I've looked at the EASY schedules--every week or so   We really are on EASY, its just it varies from 3-4 hours depending on the day and the naps and everything.  But I'm going to try to regulate it a little more.

Today started pretty well--he woke at 6:15, but had a poopy diaper so I changed him, reswaddled and put him back in bed with his paci, thinking as soon as I laid down I'd have to get up again to go pat him.  Nope--I woke up at 7:25 and heard him call (he kind of yells a couple times like he's saying "come get me now!" before he starts crying).  So good start to the day.  He's down for his first nap now (went down at 8:55) so we'll see how it goes from here.

~Kim

[momofclaire]

Keep me posted.  Sometimes it just helps to bounce ideas off someone else.

[kim&savannah]

OK--yesterday went brilliantly!  Two 2 hour naps with W2S--first nap only had to put my hand on him a couple  times, second required 15 min. of patting, but still not bad.  He was on a 3.75/4 hour EASY all day, ate really well at each feeding (was actually really hungry, unlike he is sometimes). 

And he even went down easily for his catnap and I had to wake him after 50 min. because I wanted him to go to bed that night (this nap has lately been a total struggle and is often only 30 min. or so).

So went to bed at 7:30 easily--and then the night was a disaster!!!!  Up three times by 10:45 when I finally fed him.  Then he was fussing and thrashing around from 11:30-almost 2 a.m.  I gave up around 1:00 and brought him to our bed but it still took a good 20-30 more min. of patting and shushing to get him to go to sleep for 1.5 hours when he woke and was ready to eat again. 

And because he snacked until after 5 a.m., he wasn't hungry for his 7:30 feed this a.m. so now I'm worried that this whole day will be shot. 

I was so dissappointed--really was hoping for a decent night after such an awesome day.  And the night before went so much better as well.  What went wrong?  could the longish catnap have messed things up?  Was he actually ready for bed when I put him down at 5?  I couldn't beleive he slept as long as he did for that nap and wonder how long he would have gone if I hadn't gone in.

~Kim

[momofclaire]

I am so glad yesterday went well.  What time did he wake yesterday?  Usually good day sleep will give good night sleep but you know that if you bring him into your room you are teaching him that he has to cry X amount of time until you wil cuddle with him in the big bed.  I know it's not easy to be consistant and stick to your guns in the middle of the night but if you keep taking him into your bed he knows that at some point you will.  If he takes 2 2 hours naps I wouldn't let the cat nap go over 45 min.  Can you post yesterday?  I don't know if he was ready for bed at 5 or not.  That seems early but it also could depend on when he woke for the day.   

sorry I don't seem to be much help this post huh

[kim&savannah]

He shouldn't have been ready for bed at 5--its just, he seemed like he may have been down for a long stretch.

7:25 Wake, BF
8:50 Nap--went in at 9:35--just had to lay my hands on him a couple times when he started to stir too much

11:05 Wake, BF
1:00 Nap--had to pat from 1:45-2:00

3:00 Wake, BF
5:00  Nap
5:50 Woke him up
6:00 BF--play, mellow time with dad (no bath tonight--too much craziness with DD)

7:20 BF
7:30 swaddle, paci, bed

Then I wasn't home and dh can't remember exactly when he woke, but around 8:30, again just before 10, again at 10:45 when I fed him.

I know I'm not supposed to take him to bed, but that's what we've been doing since day 1--he starts out in his bed, then comes to ours for a few hours and then I put him back in his bed after his last feed.  It used to be working great--he woke every 3-4 hours, but I didn't mind that so much--its the every hour and not resettling that I mind.  And I know I have a bit of an uphill battle now to break the habit, but seriously, I am just a total zombie--I'm not in a good state to be starting any sleep training at the moment, but at the same time,  I can't hold off any longer because I can't survive much more of this.  I don't think I've ever been so tired in my life--I thought it was bad with dd, but at least I only had one child to take care of then so I could squeeze a little more sleep in.  I didn't get to sleep until 2 am last night and was woken up at 6:30 by dd.  Not to mention a couple wakings from Abe in there.

Thanks again for following along with me.  And for helping me to do the right thing--those bad habits are so tempting.

~Kim

[momofclaire]

I am sorry you are having a hard time.  I know that being tired is rough.  Maybe you should just pick a day to start sleep training.  Maybe dh can take a friday off work and you guys can try thur, fri, sat to get some good headway.  It really takes 100% cause if you give in then your work is for nothing.  I understand if you can't do it now, if you can't don't start out trying cause that just makes you tired for nothing. KWIM?  I will be here to help nd support you through it.  It does take some consistancy and dedication though.

[kim&savannah]

I was actually thinking something like that.  DH is in grad school, but doesn't have classes Fridays, so they are often a little more laid back (although he's been so busy lately, I'm not sure what his schedule is for Friday this week.)

I definately haven't, in my mind, started any strict sleep training yet--I've always tried to keep some level of consistancy (even though it may not sound like it--I've done a lot of props and AP, but its all been the same way each time )  And now I'm just trying to set the rules a little stricter, IYKWIM. 

You suggested that I work on day sleep first--and that is going ok--naps weren't quite so easy today, but both early naps were at least 1.5 hours, so not bad.  And he's down for the 3rd right now, so we'll be looking at an earlier bedtime tonight--is that ok if that keeps moving around?  If his naps vary by much, then its hard to keep him up until the same time each night, and if he takes a bit longer, its hard to get him down early (like last night--he's usually in bed by 7, but his naps were so great yesterday).

I'm also thinking that when I go for it, I need to remove the paci at the same time--either cold turkey, or some sort of gentle removal, but I don't have much hope of that working.  I could never figure it out with DD--we just did cold turkey at 6.5 months.  I'm scared though because paci replugs are how I've been extending his sleep--its totally a prop, I know.  So that's probably the next step, right?

~Kim

[momofclaire]

If you think the paci is a prop for sure then you will just end up replugging at night once you get on a good sch and that's no good for you.  I think it's ok that day sleep isn't exactly the same everyday but you are trying to "set his clock" for lack of a better term.  So he needs to see a really good pattern emerge so he knows what to expect.

[samijoe]

hi there,

i was glancing thru and i can't really tell if you are on a 3 or 4hr EASY?

the food looks like it might be 4hrs, but not the A time for it.

if he is on the 4hr EASY, he should have A times closer to 2hrs Each.... helping him to extend it to the 2hr mark should help your daytime naps and all those nw'ings.

hth
sami