EASY Routine messed up - Help!

[NiknLily]

Hi
I agree totally with what Majas Mom has said, Saturday looked great and if you had left the catnap at 20Min's and bought bedtime earlier I think you would of got him down for bed easier.  Sunday was not so good, remember that they can only stay awake max 2hrs at this age so if he wakes up 1hr before next feed then he will only be awake for 1hr after his feed.  I know this seems to through out your whole day but the best thing to do when this happens is just roll with it, put him down for his next nap early but only feed at 3.5hr mark. 

It is very hard to relax with it when it seems to get so messed up I was the same I would get so frustrated and cry, not knowing how I would get through the rest of the day but it does get easier and once his routine is back on track the early wake ups from naps etc should all but stop. 

Remember to totally follow his cues as long as he is not showing sleepy cues.  My DD never had very obvious sleep cues she would just suddenly be overtired so I know it can be hard, also she is a creature of habit and because for a long time she was used to an A time of 1.5hrs she would show her tired cues at this point but wouldn't nap well because she actually wasn't that tired, so I really had to force her to extend her A time, for her extending A time does not come naturally.

Another thing at his age unless you think he is going through a growth spurt it is probably not necessary to do the cluster feed, it will depend on him entirely but it may be worth stooping if your sure hes not going through a growth spurt, by the book, cluster feeds usually stop at 8/9weeks.

With regard to when to move onto 4hr, its up to him really you could try jumping up to it or you could wait for him to slowly move onto it.  As I said before we never really moved onto a 4hr, she did eventually end up on 4hrs but for her 3.5hrs worked well so I just left her to it and followed her cues on that one.  Its a judgement call only you can make.  As Majas mom said you are now only expecting him to have 2 long naps up to 1.5hrs and one catnap of max 45min.

keep us posted and you know where we are if you need us
newmum x

[Camila-Nina]

Hello!
Monika, some comments on your reply:
- his first A lasted only 1,5hrs because he was really tired, yawning and scratching his eyes. Should I insist in low key activities even when I sense his tiredness? I thought that this way he would be overtired and his naps would be shorter...
- I understand you're considering his 4hrs because he did like EASAE, right? This is one of the most difficult things for me, since he always wakes up long before his E time, the next A gets messed. Because after he eats, he gets awake... I forgot to mention that he had a catnap meanwhile (from 11h50-12h10). After that I kept trying to put him back to sleep, what I could only achieve at 1pm... But I see your point, the problem is that I feel I'm in a vicious circle, as new mum said... So, just to make things clear to me, the A activity in a EASaEa routine should account both small 'a' to reach the 1.5/2hs mark??
He now has 3 naps, being 1 in the morning around 9, another after lunch, around 12h30, and a catnap around 4pm. Sunday (and also today), his first nap was too short and I couldn't put him back to sleep. I think that this caused the whole day to be messed up... do you agree? Cause then his A time was long, his 2nd nap was short, and so on... I think that the only nap that is as should be is the 3rd (because it's meant to be short!).
Looks like I should learn to make his 1st nap last enough...
 

Today so far:
E  6h40 (woke up 6h15)
A  6h50
S  8h-8h50 (50' nap -   couldn't put him to sleep again; A-time: 1h45 right?)
A  8h50-10h10 (low key activities)
E  10h10
A  10h20
S  11h10-11h35 (25')
S  11h55-12h10 (15' - I gave up)
A  12h10
next E time will be 1h40 (it's 12h30 here in Brazil now).

New mum, he eats the cluster feed well... do you think it's worth not giving it and see how he goes?
Another question, do you think I should do the DF later, to see if he can start the day at 7am?

Thank you all so much!

[NiknLily]

Hi
yes the total A time in any one go should be no more than 2hrs, as you said both small 'a' should reach 2hrs max, this includes the time he spends eating as well.  I think of it as Awake time rather than Activity time.

I think I would try to eliminate the cluster feed and use it when he has a growth spurt, remember you need to try to up his intake during the rest of the day to compensate this.  I cant remember if you said you breast or bottle feed, its easy if hes bottle fed just put more in the bottle, if he is breast fed they say to increase the amount of time for each feed.  I breast feed and DD will only ever take what she wants at a time, if this is the case for your DS its a case of hoping that without it they increase what they take themselves as my DD did, but this happens after you drop the feed and for me couldn't be done before.  What you can try is to gradually reduce the amount he has at this feed or go cold turkey.

With regard to the DF don't do it any later than 11pm as this can interfere with their night sleep and cause more problems than it solves.  I always DF no later than 10.45pm just to be sure.

Re todays routine: when he went to sleep at 8am you are right it was A time of 1hr 45Min's. I think I would try going closer to 2hrs A time and see if that helps improve that first nap.  Your next A time was still too long which is probably why the second nap was not good at all.  He woke up at 8.50am so his next nap should of been no later than 10.50am, here you had real trouble because the first nap was a little too short (although getting better) and his next A time was 20Min's too long so he would of been overtired again.

I hope the rest of your day was better, things will improve again soon.
newmum x

[*Mona*]

new mum- great advice and you're right on the spot with Awake rather than Activity time. A time is all the baby is doing when he/she's not asleep.

so, how was the rest of the day for you, Camila? or is it Nina?

[Camila-Nina]

Hello, Girls !
By the way, name is Camila. But couldn't use as username (already used), so I added my nickname!

Well, it wasn't a very good day, you know... The most amazing thing I learned about babies, or at least about my baby, is that you try to do everything exactly the same way, and ends up with a totaly different result... 

Here goes my day:

E  6h40 (woke up 6h15)
A  6h50
S  8h-8h50 (50' nap -   couldn't put him to sleep again; A-time: 1h45 right?)
A  8h50-10h10 (low key activities)
E  10h10
A  10h20
S  11h10-11h35 (25')
S' 11h55-12h10 (15' - I gave up)
A  12h10 (awful mood, wouldn't go to sleep, took him out of his room, walked around the house; everytime I got closer to his room he started to cry, sensing I would put him back to bed; put him in his bouncing seat to watch me having lunch, got in an even worse mood, rocked him a little and he felt asleep);
S  1h25-1h55
E  1h55
A  2h05-4h
S  4h20-4h50 (didn't insist to get him back to sleep, per your advices!)
A  4h50-5h10
E  5h10
A  5h10-6h20 (talking, shantala, bath)
S  6h40
woke up 7h15 crying a lot, after 20 minutes of crying I decided to feed him.
(by the way I'm breastfeeding)

Some comments:
- I focused in making his day last 12hs, 12,5hs at most. Didn't work out, since he woke up after 30 mins of sleep, as if it was a nap, and not the end of his day.
- I tried to take out the cluster feeding. Don't know this has anything to do with his waking...
- sometimes the A time seems long (like in his 2nd A) because it takes me too much time to put him to sleep... I've thought about starting earlier, but before he gives me his clues he just gets very upset if I try to get him close to his room...
- around midday my day got completely out of my control!!! Should I have antecipated his next E and put him to sleep after? Or was it right to make him rest a little?

I really cannot recognize my DS, he is almost all the time in a bad mood, crying and asking for company, lap...
But... I won't give up.
(I think  )
 

[NiknLily]

Camilla
So sorry this is proving so hard to sort out.  I think you are right he was expecting his cluster feed when he woke up after bed time.  I still think the reason he is waking after being in bed for 30-40Min's at bedtime is because he is overtired due to poor naps in day, so thats what you really need to focus on sorting.  With regard to his cluster feed maybe try to reduce it slowly if he has both sides maybe only offer one side or cut it back to 5Min's then 3 then try to stop over course of maybe a week until he begins to increase day feeds to compensate for not getting good cluster feed.

OK, so his A times, I think if I was you I would go back a bit and try shorter times, for maybe just one day.  Stick with 3.5hr eating routine but try going back a little and see what happens it may help you pinpoint exact;y how long A time he can cope with. I know we have been telling you to extend but maybe he needs to extend slower.  One thing to remember is that most LO's are more tired in the morning and have a shorter A time than the rest of the day, you would think after being in bed all night it would work the other way but for a lot it doesn't.  It really can be a lot of trial and error when you change from one routine to another.

With regard to him getting upset when he thinks its nap time as you approach his room, this is either of 3 things, either he really isn't ready for sleep and is telling you "no I don't want to sleep yet" or maybe because of the trouble you are having he is beginning to get bad associations with his bedroom.  Or maybe he is already overtired and knows he wont be able to sleep as you want him to so is getting upset about that.  What is your wind down routine how long do you take? and what do you do when trying to get him back to sleep?  Whatever technique you use, remember that by repeatedly trying to get him to sleep for maybe 15Min's then giving up he is beginning to learn that if he makes enough fuss you will give in and get him up, so you are actually teaching him to make a fuss to get his own way.

I am so sorry your DS is being so upset clingy and grumpy, its most definitely because he is getting more and more overtired all the time.  It is so hard this transition for some and yet so easy for others.  Good on you though for being determined not to give up, keep in mind how good it was on EASY before he reached this stage and know that once we have it cracked it will be as good again.

Keep focusing on making his day no longer than 12.5hrs between wake up in am and bedtime.  Bear in mind that once in bed even if they do wake up after 30Min's and you have to cluster feed this is a night waking not an extension of his day.  Always put him straight back down after the cluster feed and feed with little or no talking and lights down very low or off if possible so he knows this is not the time to interact with mummy.

I think I would of tried to get a little sleep out of him too at midday just to try to prevent the cycle of overtiredness getting too far.  In fact what I did when our day got messed up was just to say to myself "OK so today is not a good day I will start a fresh tomorrow as I mean to go on" that way it helped me to relax about it all and not stress, as a stressed mummy makes for a stressed baby!

One last thing, I'm sure you have already considered but is he well, could he have anything wrong with him that might be upsetting his sleep and making him clingy? just a thought.

Keep posting together we will get him sorted!  speak to you again soon.  Got to get DD up and take her to doctors for a nasty injection, today should be fun!

Nicola (newmum)

[Camila-Nina]

Hi, Nicola!
How was your day w/your DD Did you have the fun you were expecting?!?!?

To get extra-streght to keep going, yesterday I spent the day reading BWSAYP... Specially the charpter where she says that if it isn't working, there's something wrong in my attitude, or in my beliefs, or in the way I'm doing it. And I realized that's the problem, I'm not quite sure about the timing to put him to bed, so I may be confusing wind down w/rocking, and sometimes I put him to bed completely awake, others he's still in the 2nd or 3rd stage of sleep, and finally there are times when I put him already asleep... this is probably something that confuses him, right? And you're completely right, there are naps that I give up - either because I'm tired of trying for 40 minutes, either because it's already time for him to eat. So he never knows when crying will get him out of the crib or not...

Anyway, yesterday I returned to the cluster feed, and bedtime went smoothly. He only woke up today at 6h45. So I think that we're fine in the night. Additionally, at night I always put him to bed awake, and he manages to fall asleep by himself... sometimes he does complain and cry a little, but it doesn't last 2 minutes.
I really should concentrate now in naps. I was thinking about using the transition plan, I mean, just observe him for 2 days, putting him to bed when I get his clues, regardless the time, and then defining if he's ready for a 3,5hr or 4hr easy. And then jump into it! Like starting fresh... Maybe it will give me the energy required to get everything on the track again!!

Regarding your questions, wind down routine usually is taking him in his stroller for a walk along the garden in the building we live in... sometimes I walk w/him around the house, sometimes I do some rocking in his bedroom... I've tried to sit w/him and sing, or tell stories, but he's started to get upset and agitated...
And I've thought about teeth, but besides that, I don't think there's anything wrong with him... but I'll be w/his doc this week and ask him about it...

And THANK YOU so much for your support and kind words!!!!
It's been REALLY helpful!!!!!
hugs,
Camila

[NiknLily]

Hi Camilla
We went to doctors, sat waiting for 1/2hr went in only to be told she doesn't need the injection until she is at least 12months, I wasn't impressed.  It was a course of 3 injections which at the first one I was told would be 2months between each one, which is why i made the appointment for the last one as it had been 10 weeks already since middle one.  this was wrong apparently so we had a wasted visit.  Oh well at least it was a positive visit to the doctors with no nasty associations for DD.  Poor little mite tho, at 12 months she has to have Dip injection then 2weeks later this one we went for other day then 2 weeks later at 13months its MMR so the first month of her 2nd year isn't going to be very nice, I just hope she has no bad reactions to any of them.

It sounds like you have renewed confidence now and have got a good plan sorted in your head of how you are going to approach this change in routine, so thats great. 

One thing I was told about wind down routines is as they get older you need to spend less time doing the wind down, so bear this in mind.  I guess as they get older and start to know what is expected at nap and bedtimes if you take too long getting them ready for it they will get frustrated at the fact that you have not put them to bed so they can fall asleep.  I would say always do exactly the same windown at naps and bedtime, in your case as bedtimes seem no problem use the same technique at nap times, consistency is the key thing.  I think by his age I was simply taking DD upstairs telling her its nap time, getting her ready (clothes wise), wrapping her in her blanket (now use sleep sack but same principal) hold her while i sing lullaby, always the same one, then saying night nights baby, love you sleep tight as I lay her down and walking away.  it takes probably no more than 5mins.  Only if she was excited by a visiting relative or some new skill she had mastered would I spend extra time doing the walking about first to calm her down but again not for too long, just long enough to slow her little mind down to a more suitable pace for sleep.

I really hope all goes well, I'm sure it will.  Remember we are here if you need us. 

Nicola