7mth old questions

[FionaS]

Hi.  My 7mth old's night wakings have been getting worse over the last 2 months.  Last night she woke at 2.30am and talked to herself until 3.15 at which time she started to cry.  I fed her (bf) at 3.30am and she took at huge feed.  I'm very very full at night so she gets her biggest feed of the day.  She then woke at 6 am wanting to start the day.  I tried leaving her as our normal start time is 7am but she just cried and cried.  I don't like doing AEAS as it makes the day so messy but don't think she should E 2.5 hours from her biggest feed of the day when she is usually on a 4 hour EASY.  What should I do in this situation?

In case you need the info, our routine is as follows (though as she starts the day at such different times it keeps getting mucked up):
6.30am wakes, leave her in her bed
E 7am, solids 8am (takes about 3 tsp cereal)
A
S 9am approx for 1hour 20mins (sometimes 40mins)
E 11am, try solids at 12 but usually only takes 2 tsp chicken and veg.
A
S by 1pm for 1 hour 20mins, occassionally 2 hours
E 2.30
A
S 4pm (catnap)

We've had a really busy week and on 2 occasions she's ended up doing a 20min nap out in the middle of the day insteaed of her nap and then either napping again at 5pm OR not napping at all.  This is NOT the norm, I do try to be home at nap times, this week has just been a bad one.

We've had a really rough ride with our little one as she was very unsettled until 6.5 months and is only just coming right.  I was doing ok when she was sleeping through until 5am and then to 7 but now that she is waking earlier, and sometimes wanting to feed twice a night I'm just so fatigued and am too tired to do my normal activities + have to take pain killers quite frequently for headaches. Would it be cruel form me to try some of the gentle night weaning methods? 

[Colin Macs Mom]

Most LOs are ready to drop the catnap around 6.5 or 7mo, so it might be worth considering a routine change. She's probably ready to handle a bit longer A times, what do you think?

[FionaS]

Hi Colin Mac's Mom.  Not sure about that.  My lo seems to have shorter A times as the day goes on.  For her 3rd A time she is pretty unbearable after 1.5 hours hence why she still has the cat nap.  She can magage 2 to 2.5 hours for her other A times.  For example, she may do 2 hours in the morning, 2 + next A time, then 1.5 and then be ready (i.e. rubbing eyes and grizzling and yawning) only 1 hour later. 

Are you thinking that the catnap may be CAUSING earlier / extra night wakings??

[Colin Macs Mom]

Are you thinking that the catnap may be CAUSING earlier / extra night wakings??

Yes - I wonder if she's getting too much daytime sleep. 7 mo can be sort of a screwy age for sleep because it's usually nap transition time. I was thinking that if you moved both of the other naps forward a bit, even just 30 min, it might do the trick. Some LOs need more time to be able to adjust to the longer A time though.

[FionaS]

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.  However, yesterday we didn't change anything, just stuck closely to 4 hour EASY + only let her sleep 20mins for her catnap and she slept 7pm to 6.45am!   I'm trying not to "expect" her to do it again tonight but I am secretly hoping she will.  I didn't sleep through...woke 3 times expecting her to wake 

[Colin Macs Mom]

So maybe the key is a very short catnap?!

[FionaS]

Could be!  We'll try it again today.  No catnap seems to make her too overtired and hence she doesn't feed well and then doesn't sleep well but maybe, as you say, a shorter catnap is the key for now.  She ate very well too so the 4 hour EASY seems to be a good thing.  At first I didn't think 4 hourly feeds would be a good thing but they are!  She wasn't ready for the 4 hour routine until more recently though.  Yesterday she fed 4 hourly, had 3 very small meals of solids + took a 200mL top up of formula before bed.   Really hope she sleeps through again tonight!  Sleep is a wonderful thing.

[Colin Macs Mom]

Let me know how it goes!

[FionaS]

Well yesterday we replicated the schedule but she didn't do quite as well.  She woke at 4.55am, resettled herself then woke at 5.30am and cried.  I fed her for 3mins (she usually feeds for 10 or 12mins at night) then took her off.  She wasn't impressed but stopped crying within a minute or so.  She then went back to bed and back to sleep.  I didn't set my alarm as she usually wakes up between 6.30 and 7.15 without fail but she slept until 7.45! That means our schedule for the day is out and we won't be able to do 4 hour EASY unless we push her bedtime back an hour.  Should we aim for her normal bedtime or push it back?  Is it normal for a baby to do 4 hour EASY during the day but then have a shorter gap, say 3 hours between the last 2 feeds of the day?  Or would that mean they don't take enough to sleep through?

Is it correct to assume that if she will take 3mins of feed then sleep for another 2 hours that she can probably manage to wait until 6.45am for the feed?  I'm wondering if I should stop feeding her in the night and start using pick up / put down?

[Colin Macs Mom]

Should we aim for her normal bedtime or push it back?  Is it normal for a baby to do 4 hour EASY during the day but then have a shorter gap, say 3 hours between the last 2 feeds of the day?  Or would that mean they don't take enough to sleep through?

Aim for normal bedtime, definitely. Consistent bedtime is very, very important. I wouldn't worry so much about the shorter gap late in the day - that's how things always were with my DS. Some LOs go the other way with a shorter gap in the morning. It's normal either way

Is it correct to assume that if she will take 3mins of feed then sleep for another 2 hours that she can probably manage to wait until 6.45am for the feed?  I'm wondering if I should stop feeding her in the night and start using pick up / put down?

I'm not a BF expert but I don't think 3 min is enough to constitute a necessary feed. Rather than stopping cold turkey I would offer 1 min less each night for a few days at a time, and then PU/PD after that if necessary.

[FionaS]

Thanks for all your help.  Hopefully we'll continue to have good night's sleeps (until the next milestone!  )

[Colin Macs Mom]

LOL, it's always something!!

[FionaS]

Sigh.  Despite 4.5 good feeds, 200mLs of additional formula + 2 meals of solids, our lo woke at 2.20am   As we knew she can do much better than that, we decided not to feed.  I did pu/pd for an hour and she resettled and slept until 6.40.  Now that we've started to night wean, I guess it is fairest for everyone to continue...?

[Colin Macs Mom]

Yep. It will take some time, but if you are consistent and stick with the plan you'll all be sleeping like crazy before you know it.

[FionaS]

It generally takes 3 to 14 days to change a sleep habit...is that correct? 

If I was to offer her a small drink of half strength formula (e.g. 20mLs) would that slow the weaning process or just help make it a little more gentle?  I know that she will resettle faster after a small drink.

[Colin Macs Mom]

It generally takes 3 to 14 days to change a sleep habit...is that correct? 

Yes, unless you are my DS and then it takes 2.5 months.    

If I was to offer her a small drink of half strength formula (e.g. 20mLs) would that slow the weaning process or just help make it a little more gentle?  I know that she will resettle faster after a small drink.

 

Sometimes a LO just needs a sip during the night - I know that I like a drink at night sometimes. Dry mouth and all, you know. So sure, try the watered down version. Every few days you can water it down a touch more. That version of weaning has worked well for a lot of folks around here, myself included.

[FionaS]

Ok so I have been continuing with the watered down formula and have got it down to 80mLs of water + 1/4 scoop formula (that is very very weak).  She will take about 1/2 of it (about 40mLs) then settle back down to sleep. 

Here are some examples of our nights:
1. One night she wakes at 3am, takes 30mLs watery formula, pat and shhh for a bit and she goes to sleep until 7am

2.  Another night she wakes at 5.30, give her the same as above, she sleeps until 7am

3.  Last night, she woke at 5.30, I gave her the watery formula but she just got very very mad.  I made it a bit stronger and she took some then went back to bed happily.  She talked, then grizzled, talked then cried etc until 6.45 at which point she fell asleep for 20mins and woke for the day at 7.15.  When she woke at 7.15 she was very happy and wasn't particularly interested in eating!  Since she was soooooo mad in the night + didn't settle back to sleep I assumed she was hungry but clearly she wasn't.

What would you recommend we do now...offer her water only?  Continue with weak formula?  Just us pu / pd?  She gets sooooo mad in the night and yet it doesn't seem like she is hungry....?

[Colin Macs Mom]

When she wakes, is she mad immediately?

[FionaS]

Not really.  She usually grumbles a bit then escalates. She gets mad as soon as we enter the room.  She often starts out talking, then grizzles, then cries.

[Colin Macs Mom]

Have you tried leaving her be then? If she gets mad when you go in I wonder if she just wants to be left alone?

[FionaS]

Yeap I always leave her until she is really crying.

Last night she slept through until 5.30am again.  She woke and started to cry loudly immediately.  She took the diluted formula, went back to bed happily but 10mins later started to grizzle / cry and kept it up until 6.50 at which point she dropped off for 20mins.  Do you think she is just getting used to going back to sleep without a full tummy and hence we just have to perservere OR does it indicate I still need to feed her more at 5.30?  It's a pain as anything she takes then interferes with her 7am feed.

[Colin Macs Mom]

I think you should just keep going as you are. She's learning to go back to sleep without the full tummy like you said.

[FionaS]

Well last night was worse than usual.  She woke at 3.20am which is much earlier than usual.  Tried leaving her but she was escalating so offered her the bottle (same dilution as the previous few nights).  She sucked then had a long pause, then sucked, long pause etc so I figured she wasn't hungry.  She's been really grumpy through the day (again - she always was unsettled) so I thought perhaps she is teething so gave her some bonjela.  She went back to bed fine and talked for a while then started to cry again.  She then went to sleep but woke every 20 to 40mins for the rest of the night and by 5.40 wouldn't go back to sleep.  I did reoffer the bottle at 6.40 but again she just sucked and paused rather than feeding heartily.  At 6.30 she was still crying and we were exhausted so I gave her some paracetamol and one side of her morning breastfeed. I put her back to bed assuming she'd be tired as she'd essentially been awake since 3.30am.  She seemed happy and went to bed and talked but was crying again by 7 so I got her up to start the day.  As soon as I got her up she was smiling and happy but not hungry as she'd had half her feed at 6.30

1. As she only sucked / paused at the 3.30am feed, do you think I was correct in assuming she was not hungry?
2. I presume it was either hunger or pain waking her every sleep cycle after 3.30am???
3.  I presume feeding her at 6.30 and putting her back to bed was a bad thing to do?
4.  We can see and feel her two bottom teeth + 2 top teeth + can feel the bottom eye teeth.  The two middle bottom teeth have been visable for 2 months.  They are still flush with the gums though.  Could it be teething?  The only other symptoms are grizzliness and ear pulling (her ears are fine).
5.  She seems to keep waking between 5am and 6am and won't go back to sleep unless she has a full tummy.  I take it this phase will pass if we are consistent in only giving her a small drink of watery formula?  We are tired as we haven't had any sleep after about 5.30am for 3 out of the past 4 nights.

Thanks for your continued advice

[Colin Macs Mom]

Hi Fiona,

1. I would have thought she wasn't hungry as well, just wanting some comfort.

2. Most likely!

3. Not necessarily. It sounds like she was hungry.

4. She's teething for sure!!    I'm sorry, it's tough. If it makes you feel any better Colin's teething two molars and two incisors right now and it's TERRIBLE. All you can really do until they come through is treat it with whatever works best for her - for Colin it's Motrin.

5. Yes, but the consistency is very important as it's a weaning process.

[FionaS]

Thanks Jessica - you are being a wonderful support!  I really appreciate the time you're taking to answer my questions and help us through the process.

[Colin Macs Mom]

No need to thank me, that's what we're all about here   

[FionaS]

Hi Again. Just wanting some guidance on how to proceed with the night weaning process. 

It seems like we've had a 3 day cycle recently - night 1, she sleeps through (well, wakes a few times but resettles herself with no feed), night 2 she wakes around 5 and resettles well after the watered down drink, night 3 she wakes closer to 4, takes the drink but then doesn't resettle.  If she does resettle it's only for 20mins and then she is crying again.

We are now down to 1/4 strength formula and she is taking about 60mLs of it.

I'm guessing that on the nights when she doesn't resettle properly she is actually hungry...does that mean I should keep doing night feeds or is it ok to continue weaning?  I'm going to focus on increasing her solids.  She already takes 4 good breastfeeds during the day but is only just on 2 meals of solids per day (she is 7.5 months old).

We've been gradually watering down the bottle for almost 2 weeks.  Is is about time to go to 100% water now?  If not, how do you recommend we proceed?

Many thanks

[Colin Macs Mom]

Is there any connection to how much she's eating during the day? Meaning, does her daytime intake vary on a 3-day routine like that as well? If not, I would continue on as you are. It could just be that the weaning process will be slower with her and that's perfectly fine. But if the same thing is happening in another week or two, I would go to 100% water then.

It may also help to introduce a 3rd solid meal.

[FionaS]

She didn't seem to eat as much though the day yesterday actually.  I'll try to encourage her to eat more today and hope for a better night tonight.

[FionaS]

This gentle night weaning doesn't seem to be working.  Last night our lo was woken at 3am thanks to our yowling cat.  She wouldn't resettle without a feed.  We offered 60mLs of half strength formula (a little stronger than usual) and she drained it quickly. She did go back to sleep but woke again at 5am, then resettled for 15mins and was awake and crying by 5.20am.  She refused water, and got very mad with patting etc.  In the end I fed her at 6.20am.  She took a huge feed but wouldn't go back to sleep so we had to start the day.  This has happened quite a lot recently which is throwing our daytime feeds & routine.

It seems that she still associates any night wakings with food.  If she cries and requires assistance she will NEVER settle without a feed.  I also seems she is getting hungry around 5am and hence not returning to sleep without a full feed.  That means on occasion she wants 2 feeds.

She is 7.5 months old.  Should we go to 100% water and get her used to settling with pu/pd, patting etc or should we go back to feeding and try the weaning process again when she is 9 months old?

I keep asking that question as we are desperate to night wean BUT we don't want to push our lo too hard if she isn't ready.

We definately need your guidance today as has we have no idea of how to proceed. 

[Colin Macs Mom]

We offered 60mLs of half strength formula (a little stronger than usual) and she drained it quickly.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but consistency is the biggest piece of the puzzle and if you even once go backwards it sends mixed messages to LO. Going back and forth will stretch out the process and only make things harder.

What needs to be determined now is whether she's one of those rare LOs who genuinely just needs a night feed for longer than normal, or if it's an issue with daytime intake. It does sound like she was genuinely hungry. Personally, I would go to water and be prepared for a few nights of protest.

[FionaS]

Thanks for your response.  I do defiantely understand re: consistency.  Last night my husband prepared and gave the bottle and he thought he put a little more in than me but I'm not sure.  I had previously been preparing the bottle before bed. 

She does seem hungry but it could be that she "expects" food.  She's getting better at taking solids so that should help too.

Our day officially starts at 7am...if I'm offering only water, what time should I be prepared to start the day?  Between 6.30 and 7am?

Thanks so much

[Colin Macs Mom]

I would expect between 6:30 and 7. It will take a little time to make the transition to where she's not expecting the feed.

[FionaS]

Last night we tried something a little different.  We tried a dreamfeed.  It never used to work for us so we didn't do it.  I know BW says to drop it by 7months but a sleep consultant we spoke to said it can be good to use as a short term measure to cut out 5am feeds. 

It actually went well...she didn't wake (well, her eyes opened a bit but I'm sure she didn't wake or see anything).  She took the full bottle.

She slept until 6.15.  It does seem a bit odd to give a 10pm feed when we know she can sometimes go from 7pm to 6am but at least that way if she does wake we can be 100% sure she is not hungry.

Our plan is to df, resettle without any feed for any night wakings and then drop the dreamfeed once she has slept through for a week or so OR until she is resettling easily in the night without a feed. Do you think it is ok to keep doing the dreamfeed for a week or two until she is routinely sleeping through? Or is it too risky? 

[Colin Macs Mom]

Do you think it is ok to keep doing the dreamfeed for a week or two until she is routinely sleeping through? Or is it too risky? 

You have nothing to lose, right?    As long as it works just go with it!!

[FionaS]

Since we've started this night weaning process, our girls daytime naps have shortened...e.g. she was doing a 1 hour 20min one and a 2 hour one...now we have a 40min one and a 1 hour one.  Should I expect this to settle down once she is sleeping better at night?  I presume the disruption to night sleep (being awake longer due to no feeds) is disrupting the days??

[Colin Macs Mom]

Yes, absolutely. Things will iron out, but try to get both naps to be a minimum of 1 hour. Less than that, and LO doesn't get what she needs out of it.

[FionaS]

We hadn't had a 40min nap for a couple of weeks so I was surprised to get one 2 days in a row.  I may try to extend her morning A time but it's hard to know what to do as she wakes at 6 but doesn't start the day until 7.  Our set nap time was 9am (I found putting her to bed within 15mins of the same time each day created a biorhythm which helped her to sleep better) but it's hard to stick to that with these early starts.  We're back to her needing a longer 3rd nap in the afternoon now.

We did the dreamfeed again last night and she slept until 6am.  It seems so crazy that an additional feed at 10pm will only buy 30mins extra sleep in the morning but 6am is better than 5.30.

We gave about 90mLs at the dreamfeed...is that enough or should we give more?  She definately opens her eyes but I don't think she actually wakes as she would cry if she had actually registered seeing me.

Is it likely that she will eventually learn to sleep until closer to 7 or to at least amuse herself in her cot?  She is a grumpy / touchy so when she wakes she cries - end of story - no playing or talking in her cot.

[Colin Macs Mom]

With a grumpy/touchy LO it might take a while for her to be ok with playing in her cot by herself. Not impossible, but she'll be more likely to object!

I think 90mL is fine - it's obviously helping her so I wouldn't change anything.

[FionaS]

Well firstly another big thankyou to Colin Mac's Mom for your help and support.  It's  been great knowing I can come here for advice and help!

The dreamfeed is working well.  Our lo has slept through until between 6 and 7am 4 nights in a row.  She generally wakes once between 4 and 6 but resettles herself after a few moans.

How long should I continue with the df before trying to drop it again?  Gabrielle is now 7mths and 3 weeks old and we are succeeding in getting more solid food into her.  I am finding she doesn't feed as well at 7am any more (will only take one side, if that, and I am not even getting as full anymore) and I'm wondering if the df is causing her to redjust to getting most of her calories between 11am and 11pm??

[Colin Macs Mom]

Wow, that's great to hear Fiona!    Good job!

I wouldn't necessarily stop the DF altogether just yet, but maybe offer less instead. Like maybe 2/3 or 1/2 the amount you are now. Then it would be less likely to interfere with the first feed.

[FionaS]

She's woken at 6am every day for 5 days now but 2 of those days she's settled back to sleep until closer to 7am.  Do you think the 6am wake is a habitual thing that we can change or could it be that she is just a lark and we have to learn to accept? 

I feel mean to begrudge her a 6am feed since she's basically sleeping through but 6am seems so early !

[Colin Macs Mom]

I'd give it a little more time before you decide if it's habitual or not. It might be a blip in the transition process KWIM?