nursing to sleep at 14 mo.

[AndrewBoy]

Hi Everyone,

I need some help on making a plan to stop nursing my son to sleep.  I knew better than to start (since I did it right with my two girls) but my spirited son wore me down.  It worked for a while but now we feel it is a problem and would like to teach him how to go to sleep on his own so we can all get more rest.  Here is our general routine:
7:00 nurse
8:30 solids
10:45 nap some days....others he goes until after lunch (if he gets too tired, I nurse him and he falls asleep.  
         He will look at me when I lay him down and will sometimes reach for his paci and other times just roll
         over and go back to sleep)
12:00 solids
12:45 nap
3:00 up and will sometimes nurse/ snack
5:30 solids
8:00 nurse and bed (he has been fussing more when we lay him down...he used to go in awake and put
       himself to sleep.  Now he cries for us to stay with him or stay outside his door shhhing him.  Many times
       he will throw the paci out and wait for us to come give it back)
2:00 nurse
5:30 nurse

I was thinking about starting with bedtime...nursing earlier and then diaper, story, cuddle, song, and into bed.  Since we have to stay with him anyway I thought this would get him used to a new routine.  Then I thought I would begin changing the nap routine.  Any advice???  I am so tired and frustrated, thanks for reading.

[LLLena]

Hi!  I see why you're tired! LOL  Are you looking to wean completely or just of the nurse to sleep?   When you nurse to sleep, is it because he has a meltdown and needs to be calmed?  Maybe you are missing tired cues then.   At his age, he should be more than able to sleep through the night thus giving you a much needed break.  Have you done pu/pd or wi/wo before?  I think he's probably too old for pu/pd at this point, but I am certain there is hope.  I like the idea of switching up the bedtime routine as it might get you out of the vicious cycle.  I've been there too and you wake up one day and realized how crappy things are, but don't know where to start to fix it. (((Hugs!)))  It'll get better!

Lena

[daisymelan]

The pp mentioned a lot of questions I was going to ask. 

First and foremost, do you want to continue the feeds, but just eliminate the nursing to sleep?  How many nursing sessions do you want to have during the day? 

I agree that changing up the bedtime routine is a definate place to start. 

How much does he take at night when he has night wakings?  Is he making up for cals he's not getting during the day?  If so, you will have to try and get a few extra feeds in there during the day.  Maybe a midmorning snack as well as the afternoon one you have there? 

Let's get this figured out so mama and baby can both get some rest. 

[Samuel's mum]

I think you might find it helpful to look at this sticky on the 'gentle removal plan'. It originally comes from a book called 'The No-Cry Sleep solution' by Elizabeth Pantley (there is a version for toddlers and preschoolers) but it is also used by Tracy in BW for toddlers (the case study on Leanne).

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52857.0

The idea is to gradually teach him to fall asleep without the breast. Then once he has mastered that you could move to something like pu/pd - walk in/walk out as the older child version.
I think when an older baby is used to nursing to sleep it's best to begin with gentle removal as it can be such a deep seated habit. If you suddenly just disappear the boob they can become very confused and literally not know how to fall asleep without it.
I agree it would be good to look at a new routine - develop some key phrase you can use that sends a sleep signal or a little song to help the transition. It sounds like he may have a bit of separation anxiety if he no longer wants to fall asleep alone. I would definitely wean him off nursing to sleep first and then later you can 'wean him off' needing you to be able to sleep if you want to.

It sounds as though he nurses to sleep in the day if he's overtired so I guess an obvious point is to try and organise his napping routine so he doesn't get to that point.
I'd also agree about trying to increase daytime calories while also reducing the nighttime ones so you can be confident he isn't genuinely hungry at night. You may find DH could be a big help with weaning the 2am feed.

You could also come and visit us on the extended nursing thread as you may find some example of people 'night weaning' on there (but not weaning entirely as that is discussed on the weaning thread).

Good Luck.
Tell us a bit more about what you'd like to achieve - how many nursing sessions in the day? Do you want to keep the paci?

[Erin (redstarfalling)]

I'd just say what the pp's said. I'll add too that you might want to try introducing a lovey, if you haven't already - sort of help transfer the comfort from the breast to something else.  Some kids live mom's t-shirts...

[AndrewBoy]

Thanks Everyone,

I really appreciate the support.  I have been feeling rather frustrated with all of this lately and definitely feel "crappy" about it.  My ds has always been sooo... hard to read.  He is a very social little guy and for the most part is very happy.  But sleep has never been easy.  We didn't always nurse him to sleep.  There were some weeks that we were able to have a "normal" routine but they were few and far between.  We have done a lot of pu/pd and tried wts.  Recently we have been doing wi/wo and usually can stay around the corner and just shhh... a few times and he settles down if we keep the door cracked and everything perfectly quiet (our house has squeaky wood floors and all of the bedrooms are close together.  He is always listening for his sisters who do a really good job of staying quiet for their ages- 3&6).  Even with pretty loud white noise he is easily disturbed.  I began nursing him to sleep when he began teething at 6-7 mo.  We tried for a couple of weeks to settle him other ways and we were just so tired of the constant crying.  And here we are all these months later feeling like this sweet little guy runs the household!
I would like to continue nursing during the day.  I hadn't really thought of a number but I guess if I followed our routine I would say 4x.  We have always struggled to fill him up.  The dream feed never worked (that was sad because I loved it for our girls), he doesn't like to eat a lot at one sitting and he has resisted foods.  He is a big boy and he has always taken a full feeding on both breasts at night.    As for the paci I guess I'm undecided.  He only uses it in his bed and he doesn't even use it all the time.  I just don't like it when he throws it and cries for us to give it back.
Thanks for suggesting the Leanne case study...I have read it.  I don't want to keep rambling here but I want to explain everything.  He nurses until he is asleep for naps...at night he nurses but usually stays awake until I put him in bed at which point he arches his back and fusses.  We do the wi/wo and tonight I only had to stand around the corner and shh... for a few minutes.  He began to play and went to sleep on his own (no paci) after about 15min.  Should I just not nurse him in the evening at all?  He seems to do something a little different every night.
We have tried a lovey, three different things...he has had the same blanket since birth but I think I'm the only one who is attached to it! lol

Thank you so much for reading all of this and trying to help a very frustrated mom and dad!

[Samuel's mum]

HUGS
I think if you've already been using wi/wo then keep going with that. It can take a little while. It sounds as though you are on the right road and making good progress. just be absolutely consistent with what you choose to do to avoid confusion.
Then I would agree with you to bring the nursing session much earlier in the evening.

Then you just have to consider how to approach the 2am wake up. I think this is when you might need help from DH.

Good Luck.

[daisymelan]

The other thing to keep in mind is if he's taking full feeds, he may be needing those night cals, so you will have to try and get more into him during the day.  Perhaps putting in a structured nursing before his morning nap? 

I understand what you mean about the  blanket, I'm the same wtih ds1s.  LOL

I would think you may need to set a date and get serious about the night training.  It will likely take at least a week to get him to sleeping better.  But I'm just guessing at the time frame.

Big hugs sent to you. 

[AndrewBoy]

Thanks for the wonderful support!

We are going to start decreasing the night feeding tonight when he wakes at 2:00.  I will nurse him on both sides but will limit it to 10 min.  We plan to gradually work down to one side and then switch to a bottle of expressed milk which we will decrease by one ounce each night (5oz., 4oz., 3oz...).  My wonderful husband has volunteered to do wi/wo during this transition.  I hope this works, we are very ready.  Does anyone else have a little one that wants the door open?  What do you suggest?  It really limits our movement but I don't want to make a battle if he is truly afraid.

Thanks again!

[Samuel's mum]

I have an open door chap too. Have you tried a very soft night light? It might be a darkness issue.
You could close the door for naps as a first step. Or perhaps leave it open but drape a thick blanket to try and buffer noise.
I have to say if I was super desperate I might be tempted to get a carpenter or handyman to try and take out the worst of the floor squeaks. It might be worth the money!

Let us know how you get on.

[daisymelan]

I'm happy you have a plan, good luck!