Can anyone help me?

[Cornish smiler]

I have a little boy who will be 16 weeks old on Tuesday.  He's exclusively breast fed.  I've only just found out about this website and I've ordered one of Tracey Hogg's books.  However, whilst waiting for it, thought I'd come on and get some advice.  Sam was sleeping for 5-6 hours at nighttime but in the last 2 weeks he's dropped to 3 if I'm lucky.  I think the problem is he's not sleeping hardly at all on his daytime naps and if I put him down when he looks tired (looks 'eyey' iykwim and rubs his eyes) he'll cry for up to 30 mins and then only sleeps, say, 30 mins.  Today he slept on me from 8.30 - 9.45 (his big sister had me up in the night as sick so we were all catching up on our sleep!), in his vibrating chair 12-12.45 and again in his chair 2.00-3.45.  I don't really think this is enough.  He's a happy little boy, but I just wish I could help him sleep as it would really benefit him.

Any advice anyone?

Ali

[KathrynK]

hi Ali
can you post your usual routine and we will see if we can help!
kathryn

[Cornish smiler]

Thanks Kathryn, it's all rather vague I'm afraid.  My 4yo Zoë slept through the night from 14 weeks but she was always really hard to settle at daytime too.

Anyhow, his (very rough) routine is:

6.30 - wake and feed
7.15 - sleep until 8.00
8.00 - up, dressed and downstairs whilst I have breakfast
9.15 - feed
10.00 - active now and looks at books etc etc
11.00 - looks ready for a nap but will not go down without 20 mins of crying and sometimes then only sleeps 30 mins
12.00 - feed
12.45 - as 10.00
1.45 - I try to put him for a nap but normally to no avail
2.45 - feed
and so it goes on.  Normally at around 8.45 I give him a bath and have just started giving a massage with the aim of then feeding and in bed by 10.00
He'll then wake around 1.00, 3.00, 5.00 but will sometimes go longer.

Thanks in anticipation, Ali

[KathrynK]

Hi Ali
looks to me like he's overtired as he's awake for too long in between naps. 30 minute naps are a classic sign of overtiredness, as are the multiple night wakings. At this age you should be looking at 1.5 to 2 hours of A time during the day. If he is awake as your routine says from 8am till 11am then he's not going to nap well as he's overtired by then. That then sets off a cycle for the rest of the day. I would aim to have him back in bed by about 9.30-9.45ish and keep 1.5-2hrs of A time during the rest of the day, he might need 1.5hrs max at the end of the day as this is when he is likely to be most tired.
Also I would have bedtime earlier. Babies need a 12hr night really so if his usual wake time is 8am I would do bath massage etc from 7pm and in bed asleep by 8.
hope this helps
kathryn

[Cornish smiler]

Thanks for that Kathryn.  The problem with Sam is that he doesn't give me clues that he is getting tired apart from cranky etc, and by that point he's overtired.  If I try to put him down at the right sort of time he just cries and works himself right up.  Am I right in thinking that I count A time as the time from when he finished feeding, or is it from when he woke up before I started feeding (he was sat quite happily in his chair from 9.00 onwards) - ie he finished feeding 10.15 this morning so do I keep him going til 11.45?  I'm assuming it's from when he finished feeding. 

We had a better night last night as he slept from 9.30 right through to 3.30 and he hasn't done 6 hours for ages.  He struggled to go back down, but I just sssshhhhed him and rubbed his tummy and he was asleep in 5 mins.  Then woke at 6.00, fed for 10 mins then asleep again for a little while, but when woke he lay there happily smiling and looking at his toys.  Incidentally, when he goes for his naps, should I take down the black and white mobile I have for him to look at in case it stimulates him too much?

Sorry for all these ?s, but I am very new to all of this and just want to do the best I can by him.  With Zoë we let her do her own thing til 5 months then did CC for daytiime naps - and I don't want to go through that again 

Thanks!  Ali

[KathrynK]

hi Ali
A time is from when he wakes to when he goes back to sleep. If this has not been made clear to you then this is why he's getting overtired as he's up for too long!
So if he wakes at 8am, once he's dressed and you have breakfast I would bring that 9.15 feed forward slightly to 9am so you can have him back in bed at 9.30-9.45ish.
Obivously all babies are different, but a "typical" routine at this age would look something like this:
8am wake
9.30am nap 2 hours
11.30am wake
1.30pm nap 2 hours
3.30 pm wake
5.30pm catnap 45 mins
6.15pm wake
8pm bed
As he gets older he will be able to stay awake longer and his naps will get slightly shorter. By 6 months, just to give you an idea, he will probably be having 2 x 1.5hr naps and a 30-45 min catnap, with awake times of around 2.5 hours.
Don't get stressed about not being able to read his cues, many babies' cues are hard to read. I have been going by the clock rather than cues since Sophie was about 6 months old!
I used to take Sophie's mobile down for naps until she was about 6 months old; in hindsight I don't know if it was necessary as if she was tired, she went to sleep anyway. I would carry on taking it down until you are comfortable with a new routine and he is napping better.
let us know how you get on
xx

[Cornish smiler]

Thanks Kathryn.  I've been trying since 11.15 to get him to sleep by pat shush.  It worked twice but both times he jolted himself awake and started yelling.  He's now feeding and I was thinking to try again as he's tired.  Is that OK or should I keep him up longer?  I'll be glad when the book arrives so I can stop firing you with ?s!!!!

Ali

[Cornish smiler]

Kathryn, just thought you'd like to know that Sam went to sleep last night using shush pat and slept for 5 hours (it did take me the best of 30 mins to settle him - but I did it and he went to sleep on his own). 

He woke at 8.00 this morning and I put him down for his 10.00 nap after having done A time etc then 5 mins quiet time and he was asleep within 10 mins.  I shushed him for 12 mins and patted him for 5 but, despite various noises, he stayed asleep.

I know it's early days but looking good; just got to keep thinking I'm doing this to help him and hang in there.  I actually think he was glad to go to sleep.

Thanks for your help!

Ali x

UPDATE:  OK he's just woken up at 10.45 - but 40 mins sleep is much better than none isn't it - and he is very smiley and happy!!!

[KathrynK]

hi Ali
That is brilliant news! Well done you 
Teaching independent sleep is one of the most important things you can do for Sam and sounds like you are doing just fine. It does take time so yes, just hang on in there and we are all here to offer support when you need it!
You may find he continues to wake after 45 mins for each nap- this is very common and there are lots of techniques you can use to help him extend his naps. However, let's not go there just yet- see how you go with the different routine first and keep us updated with how you get on!
k x

[Cornish smiler]

Thought it was a bit too good to be true.  Put Sam down after he'd been up for just past 2 hours and he fought and fought me.  He DID NOT want to go to sleep and got really bothered.  I kept calmly shushing and patting and picking him up when he kicked off.  I was carrying him and went into the bathroom to see my daughter was OK and during this time he fell asleep so lay him down and shushed and patted for 12 mins.  He stayed asleep and I went into the garden with Zoë and bam, after 25 mins, the monitor came blaring out with him crying.     My lovely neighbour saw and she has offered to take him for a walk in his pram (they've been gone over an hour so he should have slept well).  Is it normal for them to sleep for such a small amount of time?  He still looked so tired upon waking.  Is there anything I can do to help?

Ali x

[KathrynK]

2 hrs is really the max time they can handle at this age so I would try shorter A times. Try to have him back in bed ready for some shh/patting between 1hr30- 1hr45 mins. He should then be asleep before 2 hrs. If you start to put him down after 2 hrs then by the time he's ready to go to sleep it's been longer and he's overtired which causes the poor nap.