Waking 30mins after going to sleep at night

[EsMum]

Hi there,

My LO is 9.5mo and wakes up crying 30mins/5mins/5mins/5mins after going to sleep at night.  I first noticed this waking started after we tried to intro some formula into her diet at 5mo, so we stopped.  It then started again after introducing solids, so we stopped again for a while, but then it stopped making a difference so we started again.  I've played with the amount and types of food I give her at dinner and it doesn't make a difference either. 

I have also been playing with her sleep schedule trying to fix this - I have had some success with a later bedtime but it still happens.  On the nights she doesn't wake she will sleep solidly all night with just one wake up for food.  When it does happen she will wake anywhere from 2-7 times.  I can't figure out why she does this, therefore I can't fix it.  There are a couple of us with babies around the same age dealing with this, so I thought I would see if anyone has gone through this and if anyone knows WHY this happens?

My biggest concern is this waking disturbs her sleep for the entire night.  I also suspect she is getting overtired because she has recently started early wakings  . Her usual routine is as follows:

7am - wake, BF (she doesn't always eat)
8am - solids
9:15 - bed, asleep by 9:30/45, naps 45mins to 1.5hrs

10:30/11am- BF
noon - solids
2pm - bed, asleep 2:30, naps 45mins to 1.5hrs

3:15/4pm - awake, BF if she wants it
5pm - solids
6:30 - bath
7:15, BF, bed
7:30-7:45 asleep

She used to be a pretty regular 7pm-7am sleeper, getting up 2 or 3 times a night for food (I've been trying to cut these down to just one a night).  I've tried everything from an early bedtime to a late bedtime...the late bedtime seems to work for a couple of days but then we go back to where we started.  Her naps vary daily, but the most "consistent" nap lengths seem to be 45am and 1:30pm.  Some days she'll do two long naps, some days two short, you just never know what your're going to get!

Thanks for taking the time to read all this!  Any help is appreciated.

Michelle.

[MDHmommy]

Hi Michelle,
Couple of questions for you:

1. What do you do when she wakes? How does she get back to sleep?

2. What's her current teething situation?

3. Any props? Pacifier?

4. Have you considered extending any of those short naps? Have you noticed a pattern in short naps during the day = waking after 30 mins?

I know that when my DS wakes after 45 mins it's a classic overtired sign. He does it pretty much like clockwork if he's had too short of a nap, or if I miss his sleep window at bed time.

Fill me in, I'll try to help.

[EsMum]

Thank you for helping me!!!!

I used to go in and nurse her every time she woke.  Then I started leaving her to see what she would do, and sometimes she slips back to sleep on her own, and sometimes she starts to cry which is when I go in.  I used to nurse her every time I went in but I've been trying to get her out of that habit too.  So now I go in and try and settle her in the crib.  If she gets more upset I pick her up til she calms down - sometimes she just drops off to sleep on my shoulder, sometimes she will start rooting at my chest (I just figured this one out!), if she does that I nurse her.  PUPD, WIWO do not work for her at all.

Teeth: she has one tooth that popped through a week or two ago.  It does look like a few more might be close, but she doesn't have "teething symptoms" so I can't really be sure.

She uses no props, no pacifier, she puts herself to sleep.  I have used nursing as a prop before but have stopped this most of the time (I use it if she has tried and failed to get herself to sleep for an hour or more, but this is rare now).

I have noticed that she will have two really long day naps after a really good night sleep, however having longer naps in the day doesn't guarantee a better night with her.  I went through absolute agony for ages trying to extend her naps and nothing worked for her, she just had to figure out how to do it on her own. 

I really don't think the NW is overtiredness because she does it regardless of her bedtime or nap lengths.  I thought I had it figured out a few days ago...short am nap, long pm nap, later bedtime = solid sleep til 3:30am, nursed for 5 mins and slept til 6:40...it was perfect.  Except it only worked for 2 days.

I was reading some of the spirited boards and think I may have to increase her wind-down.  She gets crazy hyper after her bath, which is why I gave her a later bedtime, to try and get rid of some of that excess energy before bed!  She rolls like a mad woman for 20 + minutes when I put her in bed, regardless of the time or wind-down...

Anyway I hope that's all the info you need.  Thanks for looking at this!

[MDHmommy]

Can you explain why you say that PU PD doesn't work for her? Tell me how you've tried doing it, how old she was when you tried it, how long you did it, leave no detail unturned...

Also - tell me, when you go in there after waiting to see if she will settle on her own, what is she doing? Sitting? Standing? Etc. When you say "settle her in her crib" what are you doing, *exactly*?

It's a puzzle, we'll get it figured out.

Kate

[EsMum]

Hi again Kate,

I can't remember when I tried PUPD but she was older...probably 6.5-7mo.  I say it doesn't work because I would go in and pick her up, wait for her to calm, then put her back in bed.  But when she would go back to bed she would start crying harder than before...I'd pick her up again etc...til she wouldn't calm with me holding her either.  We tried this for what seemed like ages and it didn't get any better.

I don't go in to see if she'll settle, I listen on the monitor.  Instead of rushing in at the first noise, I wait and see what she does.  If she goes back to sleep, fine.  If she starts to cry I go in.  She doesn't sit or stand in bed, she will be laying in bed, probably kicking the sides of the cot or something!  When I try to settle her in her cot it is with shh/pat...or should I say "soothing voice and pat".  Shh/pat worked amazingly for us when she was younger but now it seems to annoy her so I've modified it.

Let me know if there is anything else you need to know.  Thank you thank you again!

[Amy H]

I had the same trouble with my 8mo until about a month ago and we changed some things and he will sleep a good stretch until about 3am. My question to you is, where does your LO fall asleep? Are you holding her? Rocking her? Or do you put her in the crib while awake, and if so, how sleepy is she when you put her down? Let me know, hope i can help somehow!

[EsMum]

Hi Mamabird,

Ella falls asleep in the crib after about 20 mins of crazy rolling.  It doesn't matter how sleepy she is, as soon as she gets in the crib she's off and rolling like a rocket!  Doesn't matter if she has been active all day or been in the pram all day, it's the same every time.

Thanks!
Michelle.

[MDHmommy]

I can't remember when I tried PUPD but she was older...probably 6.5-7mo.  I say it doesn't work because I would go in and pick her up, wait for her to calm, then put her back in bed.  But when she would go back to bed she would start crying harder than before...I'd pick her up again etc...til she wouldn't calm with me holding her either.  We tried this for what seemed like ages and it didn't get any better.

This all sounds really familliar. I think that you've got a couple of things going on here - some developmental, and so you need to figure out your plan and stick with it.

What you're describing with the PU/PD is really normal, it tends to make LOs mad, because you're kind of changing the rules on them, and so they cry harder. It can take ages. Like an hour. Which is really tough. And as a nursing mom, it's even harder because you're thinking to yourself - as your milk is letting down from the sound of LO freaking out, gosh I could make this stop so easily if I could just...

I think also, based on the fact that she'll take 2 long naps after a great night of sleep, that you do have an overtired cycle that's causing the wakes. It's really hard to break that cycle when you've got multiple things going on - like developmental milestones (standing, gaining mobility, starting Sep Anx) that happen around 9/10 mos, on top of props like patting etc. without doing a bit of sleep training.

If I were you - I would devise a plan that involves PD only. Take a look at the PU/PD boards - and maybe even post there for some specific help from a moderator/old pro...and start there. I would also try to slide that bedtime just a hair earlier. Which means you might have to slide the afternoon nap back a hair as well.

Also - be careful what cries you're responding to - if you think it's a frustrated cry - that's not necessarily something you need to go in and help out with, at least not right away. If it's a "mommy, I'm scared/freaked/whatever" cry, then by all means head in! But be careful what you do when you're in there. You'll want to adhere carefully to the instructions that are posted in the FAQ. I'll see if I can find that link.

A nice, long wind down is definately a good idea if she's really wound up after her bath. You could even rearrange her bath so that it's at a different point in the day too. Some babies can't handle bath before bed.

What do you think?

[EsMum]

An hour???!!!  Anything that involves crying sounds so difficult...and I bet Ella would cry for longer than that  - what do you do if that is the case?  I guess I have spent so long not letting her cry that I need to get my head around doing something different.

I tried a longer, quieter wind-down tonight and put her to bed at her old time, 6:45.  Before I put her down she was rubbing her eyes and yawning, and as soon as she got into the cot she seemed to wake up.  We watched the mobile together and then she began her rolling...it took her about 20 mins and she fell asleep at 7:15.  Then she woke at the 30 min mark ...I let her fuss for a minute to see what she'd do and she started crying.  I nursed her back to sleep tonight because I was just too tired to do anything else.

Anyway, thanks so much for the suggestions, I appreciate you taking the time to look at this!  I'll go and look at the pupd board and see if I get any ideas...and I'd love to read the FAQ if you can find the link.

Have a good night,
Michelle

[MDHmommy]

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=69177.0

An hour. Honestly, I've heard of it taking longer. But for us - it took about 30 minutes. Then less and less time every time until he was just happily lying in his crib at bedtime.

Do take a look around on the FAQ section of the PU/PD area - I think you'll see a lot of in-depth information there. And read some of the posts over there too just to kind of get a sense of what it's like.

Don't do it if you don't think you'll be able to do it though. You really have to make a serious committment, otherwise, you're just putting your baby though a lot of crying for no reason, just to go back to nursing, or whatever will just confuse her and make it all for nothing.

Keep me posted.

Kate

[EsMum]

I took a look at the FAQs...I think it's something we might be able to try but you're right, I want us to be completely committed.  I'll have to get a list together of the questions I have about when to do it, how to know it's the right time etc.

Aaaagh, it feels scary!!!

Thanks again!

[Amy H]

ESMum, sorry, i dont think i can offer alot of sugesstions since she is falling asleep in her crib which is a good thing. I do have another theory though... i just posted a question about wake 2 sleep after searching the database for info about the technique. Your LO waking after 30min might be an inability to transition into another sleep cycle. What do yall think about that theory? Do you think w2s might get her past that 1st wakeup? I also wanna say that you must, must, must, work hard on this problem ESMum! My LO is 8mos now and he sits up and stands & i wish i had gotten his sleeping habits nailed before he became so mobile. It is so difficult now that he's standing up. Good luck to you! Tough it out too, it will be worth it!!

[EsMum]

I tried W2S with Ella's naps and I could never get it to work.  I do agree with you about the sleep cycles...when she does her 30/5/5/5 wakings I stay with her after the first waking and keep my hand on her chest...she starts to wimper but i can keep her asleep...this happens 4 or 5 times before she moves on.

I know I have to work on this, I have been in my own little way (not nursing when she wakes up (I always thought she was hungry!), not running in at the first cry etc).  We have made gigantic improvements over the last few months and I hoped this would just work itself out as well but it's not.

Thanks for posting your theory and suggestions!!! 

[EsMum]

I've just had a thought...tonight when Ella woke at 30mins I went in and nursed her and she hasn't woken again. 

Since about the beginning of March I've not been nursing her back for this waking, I've been picking her up and giving her a cuddle and putting her back in bed (she falls asleep on my shoulder  ) OR she puts herself back without me going in.  When I do this she keeps waking every hour until I feed her.

I don't know why this only just occurred to me...does this change anything???

Thanks again,
Michelle.

[MDHmommy]

The only thing it really tells me is that she needs you (in one form or another) to intervene.

Have you tried changing around the order of her night time routine? So it would be nurse then bath then maybe (since she has a hard time settling after the bath) some very quiet play in her room, plus a few books and songs then bed?

I'm wondering if the nursing isn't some kind of relaxation prop. I know it sounds weird, but I had a really similar thing going on with my son with the paci. I was giving him paci right after his bath while we got PJs on, then giving him his bottle, then plugging with paci right away...and putting him in bed. He would wake up 4-6 times a night. I stopped giving him paci, and just kept them in his crib for him to get himself, and he has STN ever since.

Thinking back, DS also did better in the early days when I was still nursing if I nursed him before his bath. I changed the order around at one point, and I'm not sure why I did it, but he didn't sleep as well after that change.

Just a thought, it might be worth a week-long try before you do any training...

Kate

[EsMum]

Thanks Kate, I might try changing the order of things before PUPD - it's certainly worth a try!

However I did try PD last night and surprisingly it worked!  She woke about 10pm and there was something going on, she was crying hard, pushing me away and arching her back...I cracked open the door and called for DH and for some reason this made her stop in mid scream.  I held her for a minute then put her back in her bed, she started to fuss but I kept my hand on her and spoke softly to her and she fell asleep pretty quickly.  I expected her to wake again after this but she slept through til 4:30am!!!!!!!  I fed her and she slept til 6:50.

Now if I can just find the thread for mums waking at 3:30am with insomnia...