Naps getting worse! guidance needed

[RACHPEM]

I have posted on this board many times, also sleep board, however my 15 week old is getting worse for naps, she used to nap for 45 mins now i can only get 20 mins out of her, unless i hold her she never quite closes her eyes! she is very spirited and i really cant read her sleep cues and find myself obsessing over missing her window/ over stimulating her etc. she will generally go from happy to a complete meltdown, and then she fights and kicks me while i hold her, if i do sh pat she gets worse. she will wake up fairly happy after 20 mins but after a short time becomes unsettled again, so i know she need more sleep, we have been on a sort of 3 hour easy without naps mostly, but i have been trying to extend to 3.5hr which works for food but not sleep.  i generally try to wind down after around 1hr 30 but if we try shorter or longer she knows i am trying to get her to sleep and fusses like crazy, she does have a paci. she does settle very well at night and wakes for 1 feed but goes straight back down with no fuss, i really want to spend a couple of weeks nailing the nap issue but dont know where to start i would really appreciate some guidance.

Thanks Rachael

[yaya]

Hi there! Husg to you for going thrrough such a tough time!
CAn you post your routine? Spirited babaies ca be very much how you described and are prone to getting overtired easily. If your LO is having such short naps then chances are she is overtired and you may be caught in a viscious routine. I will tryt o help when I see your routine but in the meantime can I suggest stroller walks for naps or whatever it takes to get her to catch up on some sleep. You'll both be better rested enough to start sleep training
HUGS

[RACHPEM]

Right here it goes!

normally awake 6.30am E
A 1hr 30
S try wind down around 8am falls asleep in arms generally hold for 20 mins put down
Y are your kidding!!!! awake and crying by 8.30 at latest
 this tends to be the same throughout the day we will do some more A time after nap, but starts fussing around 1hour later. she wll then fall asleep more or less straight away for around 20 mins, then awake again but gets so fussy again after around 40 mins that i really struggle to keep her entertained.  this continues until around 5-5.30 when we have a bath last bottle and bed. she is generally so tired she screams for her bottle even if not due as i think she has started to think once she has had this she can sleep for a while.  she will then settle straight away i will then wake her around 1030 =11pm for a dream feed she does tend to wake but again settles easy, then sleeps until her next feed which can be anytime between 2.30 and 4am.

She is not a great eater either only taking 4oz at most, this makes no difference if she was to go 3 or 5 hrs! she still only eats the same, i must admit i do struggle with feeds sometimes as she is never well rested, i prob feed her, when she is just tired but it is so hard to tell what she wants, she just winges all day.  she also finds it so hard to occupy herself and is only happy if i hold her..
also she does not sleep in her pram and even the car does not always work!!! i just wish she was happy some of the time!!
look forward to hearing from you.

Rachael xxx

[yaya]

Oh sweetie! SOunds tough! have you ruled out out anything medical, colic, gas, reflux etc? since you say she doesnt eat well either. ALtho this could be to do with being tired as you said.
Where does she currently sleep? You say she's happy if you hold her, do you hold her upright? How does she get to sleep?
SOrry to ask so many Qs, just trying to get a better picture.
It does sound like shes overtired ('you dont say'! i hear you say)! This is the answer I got when my DS behaved similarly and in his case it ended up being discomfort- reflux but more importantly not able to fall asleep independently in cot so awoke startled every time he transitioned from one sleep cycle to the next.
Why do you think she won't sleep in pram or car?
Can you outline her 'best' sleeping situation?

Hope things get better soon

[RACHPEM]

We have spoke to our health visitor and doctor who have said it is not a medical issue, at night she sleeps in her nursery in her cot, in the day however we have tried this she is awake within mins of hitting the mattress.  if i hold her she will drop off to sleep, does not matter if she is upright or in a cradle position.  at night she is normally that exhausted as soon as she has had a bath she cries for her last bottle and falls asleep in my arms after around 10-15mins i put her down and she will stay asleep, again does not work in the day.  I have been struggling with this since day 1, even the night she was born she would not sleep in crib!! i posted on sleep issues, and was advised to do whatever it took to get her to sleep in the beginning but we are not getting any better and she is getting heavier by the day.  how do i know if it is reflux? i did mention to dr but they ruled it out.
she will occasionally sleep in car but as soon as we stop she will awaken, best case is if i attatch car seat to pram while still asleep then push round sometimes this will keep her asleep a little longer, does not always work though, and i cant be out all the time!!! we went out today a walk to the shops and she had a long sleep!!! 2 hours that is a first.
her best sleep scenario is nighttime, she settles well and even when she wakes for a feed i can put her straight back down without holding her.
i dont mind her being awake if she is happy but she just winges the whole time i cant move 2 inches away from her at times, yet at my parents and mil she is totally different, i think she has me right where she wants me!!!
appreciate your views

[malialeanne]

Hi, sorry things are so tough.

The red flag for me is that she's falling asleep in your arms and waking soon after being put down. She's saying "hey mom, this isn't how I sleep! HOLD ME!" My dd needs to fall asleep in her crib. If I put her down asleep I have the same situation you describe.

I suspect that if she learned to fall aleep in her crib naps would improve. You can try many things to get her to sleep in her crib. I gradually started putting my dd down more and more awake--holding for only 15 minutes, then 10, then 5, etc, and using pat/shhh to calm her in her crib. It's hard work but VERY WORTH IT!

At almost 4 months, she may be due for extended A times. We moved to 2 hour A times at 4 months. It's very tough when they are fussy, but just walking them around the house or quietly reading books in their room can help to gradually extend A times.

Let me know if you have questions.

[RACHPEM]

thanks for your comments, I am determined to beat the napping problem over the next few weeks so am going to commit 100%.  i still dont think she is ready for 2hr A time as yet although if i could nail the first 2 naps of the day she may go longer.  today she napped a lot better and the only thing i did different was when she woke at 6am i fed her and put her back to bed as i was tired. but she slept another hour and 30 mins and settled better the next two naps, i even managed to get 2hrs out of her this afternoon, not sure if it was a fluke! should i still be aiming for a 3 hours easy until she is napping better or move to 3.5 or 4? she still does not eat much at each feed regardless to whether she goes 3 or 4 hrs she will still only take 3-4oz, the other thing i am noticing is at bath time she is really happy in bath then as soon as she is taken out she screams and gets really upset, it is as if she knows it is bedtime and although she does not resist she wants a bottle NOW! even if she is not due then she falls asleep and i dont hear from her until her df, i just wish bedtime routine was a calmer experience.

[yaya]

imo if shes been having trouble with naps and is now recuperating I'd hold off a few days on extending to 4hr and see if her sleep improves with the sleep training and more rest

[malialeanne]

I agree, once she is more rested you can try for two hours, but now it sounds like she is battling overtiredness.

Some moms go to an EASASE until short naps improve.

I had a similar problem with dd--total meltdown after the bath. I started feeding her before her bath rather than after, and that solved the problem.

[_newmom_]

My 12 week old DD sounds similar to yours in so many ways.  I discovered she can only stand about 1 hr of A time in the morning, with wind down beginning 30/40 minutes after she's woken up, even if she's just had almost 12 hours of sleep.  I realised her A time varies throughout the day in general, so you may want to bear that in mind.  Hope this helps somewhat!

[RACHPEM]

Thanks again for your comments, but how can i extend her naps? today for e.g she was up at 6.30am.
E at 7am
A 1hr 7.30am
S 2 hr  9.30
A 9.30-10
E 10am
A 1hr 10-1100
S 1hr 1100-1200
A 12-1pm
E 1pm
A until 1.30 went a walk in pram 20 mins sleep but she is constantly wingeing unless she is on my lap and i am givving her my full attention she will not play even a moment on her own.what can i do as i am feeling very tense at the moment and dont know how to fix it! i know her naps are key but where do i start? please give me a plan i am willing to give anything a go!!!!

[yaya]

there are a few methods like 'wake to sleep' and 'shhpat' outlined in the naps FAQs, I'd be happy to talk you through them. I 've been there with them never wanting to be put ddown, with my DS it was mainly due to overtiredness and reflux so once you sort out naps then u should see an improvement.
how long are her naps?

[malialeanne]

So it looks like you got a 2 hour nap this morning from 7:30 - 9:30. Did you hold her for that nap?

Just want to make sure I understand your problem correctly: she sleeps allright in her crib at night but won't sleep there during the day. Is that correct?

If that's the case you have a couple of options:

A) You can try to get her to nap wherever she will sleep during the day or
B) You can use a sleep training method like pat/shh to help teach her to sleep in her crib and extend naps

Many moms do whatever it takes to get naps in until day sleep sorts out, but obviously you will probably have better long-term results with option B.

Let us know if you want more info about pat/shh, there's loads of info on this site.

[RACHPEM]

Her naps really vary yesterday she had a 2hour nap in the pram previous nap 20 mins in cot and later nap 20 mins in pram, today she had a 2 hr nap in my arms, 1hr in cot and 20 mins in pram but she still seems tired she is constantly rubbing her eyes and grumps the whole day.
She will sleep fine in cot at night but cant get her to sleep longer than 20 mins in the day n there, car seat again she tends to only sleep on journey and once we stop she is awake, i just cant keep her entertained at all, she is so grumpy within mins of doing an activity regardless to whether it is toys or a walk round the garden, she wont sit in her pram, lie on her activity mat, sit in bouncer only place she is happy is on my lap and that does not last either!!!, she is now asleep and i feel so guilty that i look forward to this time of day, i am now catching up on my chores great eh?
where do i start with the naps, when i generally find it hard to read her cues, she always rubs her eyes as she is always tired, and do i put her straight down after wind down or hold her ? i have tried sh pat, before and sometimes she does not resist her naps, will go down into cot without fussing but after 20 mins will be awake and laughing at me, but after around 30 mins she is having a melt down. i have tried various A times to see if this makes any difference, it doesnt.
Best go or i'll never sit down tonight! love to you both, and thanks again.

[malialeanne]

It looks like her morning nap is the longest, and that's right on target for her age. Day sleep patterns start to emerge around 12-16 weeks (although many moms don't see improvement until much later) with the a.m. nap developing first.

If she has trouble sleeping in her cot/crib during the day, she may be awakening at the 20 minute "jolt" and have trouble resettling. You can use pat/shh to get her through this jolt, and eventually she'll be able to do it on her own.

A winddown is very important and will help her settle. We use a 5 minute winddown ritual--dim lights, swaddle, sit for five minutes (sometimes bouncing or rocking) and put her down straight after. She is awake when we put her down. At first she cried a LOT when put down but we used pat/shh to get her through this, at first patting for 45 minutes, then 30, 20, 15, etc. Now we just put her down and leave.

I also find it hard to read cues. As they start to stay awake for longer periods, they often yawn or rub eyes and hour after waking up, and that doesn't mean they immediately need a nap. I find I have to do a combination of clock-watching and cue-watching at this point because if I went for the first yawn my baby wouldn't be up for more than a half hour. Here's a link to average A times: https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.msg476652#msg476652

Also, right around 15-16 weeks is a prime time for grumpiness all-around. Don't worry, it gets better soon!