Naps getting worse! guidance needed

[RACHPEM]

Hi again, just need some help again! my lo is now 16 weeks today and I am going to commit myself to 2 weeks from 2morrow (hubby is off today so wont work as he will interfere), with Maya's nap routine, but i am a little confused!  i have noticed over the past few days after 1hour 15 mins she starts to fuss should i prepare for nap then or prior to this? she seems to be quite spriited so i have been letting her do an active activity for a short period eg 20 mins then (after E and nappy change) then doing something less stimulating like reading a book for a short time.  I have 2 of Traceys books and they seem to contradict slightly on the wind down time so I am not sure whether the reading is winddown, when i should start and how long it should be? also after this period should i attempt to put her down or do shh pat? if she fusses in crib what should i do pu/pd or shh pat still and what if she awakens after 20 or 45 mins? sorry for the long post but i am determined to get it right now, also is this A time too short for her age (i am too frightened of leaving too long as we have meltdowns, but she does not seem interested in doing anything towards the end of this time!
Sorry forgot to ask what I should be aiming for with regards to naps as she is just 4 months, should it be 2 naps or 3 naps ?
The last 2 days this is what i have been doing in morning.
Awake 7am E
A 7-8.15
8.15 take her into nursery read 15 mins
8.45 swaddle and put in crib by 9am she has been drifting off.

[malialeanne]

1 hr 15 minutes is pretty short A time for a 4-month-old. My dd also starts to fuss about 1 hour or so into her A time. It means she's bored and needs a change of scenery. For the first few weeks of extending A times we had to carry her in the Bjorn for about the last 30 minutes before her nap because she was so fussy.

We went to 2 hour A times at 4 months. Not all babies are ready to do quite that long at 4 months, but many are. It sounds like your dd is ready to give it a go.

At 4 months she should have 3 naps. A 2 hour schedule would look something like this:

7 a.m. wake/eat

9 a.m. nap 1 (2 hours)

11 a.m. wake/eat

1 p.m. nap 2 (2 hours)

3 p.m. wake/eat

5 - 5:30 ish catnap

7:30 eat/bed

Books can be part of the low-key activity before bed, and can be part of a nap wind-down ritual if you choose.

You do not need to do shh/pat or pu/pd after you put her down unless she starts to cry. If she is calm after putting her down you can just leave and see if she will drift off on her own.

[RACHPEM]

I will try to extend her A times 2morrow and see where that gets us, how much wind down time do you think i should try? if 20 mins would i do this around 8.40 for first nap for eg? normally she will settle herself after a little fussing but will be wide awake after 20 mins what do i do then when she is laughing at me? but is then cranky around 30 mins after so i know she needs the sleep.

[malialeanne]

Regularly waking early and happy is an indication that A times aren't long enough. They are tired enough to take a little nap but not a long nap. I think once you extend A times you may find that she is not waking after 20 minutes. Every baby is different, mine conks out when she is truly tired and takes much longer to settle when undertired, but yours could be the opposite.

When extending A times you may find that you need more time to wind down. You can go into her room 15-20 minutes in advance to read books or sit quietly, and spend the last few minutes sitting quietly in the dark with her if you feel she needs that extra help before going into the crib.

[RACHPEM]

Thanks again, this is all so confusing, the last 3 days her morning naps have been 2 hours with only 1.15-1.30 A time but today only 20 min in the morning and 2 hours this afternoon followed by a 30 min nap at 4.30pm, still miserable throughout day though, I am really struggling with what to do with her to keep her occupied. she fusses shortly after being on her activity mat and is only fairly happy when on my lap,  but what else can i do , i am so scared of over stimulating her too any ideas?

[malialeanne]

What about a walk in a stroller or a carrier? If she likes baths you can always do an a.m. bath in addition to the evening bath, there's no rule that you can only have one bath a day. Massage is also good.

Just as long as you make sure the last part 20-30 minutes of of her A time is nice and low-key, you don't have to worry too much about overstimulation. Again, this is a prime time for fussiness in general. Is she sleeping OK at night?

[RACHPEM]

Not too bad, she normally drops off around 7-7.30 has a df around 1030-11pm has 1 waking around 4-4.30 then sleeps till 6.30-7am she settles herself each waking after feed so it is ok, she also drains her mid night bottle so i am sure it is still hunger not habit. one last question (for now anyway) if it normally takes 20 mins for a lo to drop off to sleep do you count there sleep from when you put down or after 20 mins if the latter do you have 20mins wind down then 20 mins settling? and is A time still from when they wake inc eating, changing etc?
Wish me luck!!!

[RACHPEM]

Me again! we tried a longer A time this morning turned out worse! the last few days we would wind down after 1.15 then did shh pat around 1hr 30 of being awake she slept 2 hours in the morning, yesterday she only did 20mns and would not go back to sleep but fussed and then fell back to sleep on her own for another 20mns. today we tried nearer 1.45 A time she was in her cot at 9am and settled fairly quick but was awake at 9,25 i heard her murmur but left her as she was gurgling and i thought she may settle back to sleep! not the case she then started crying i went in and tried shh pat but she had no interest in going back to sleep she was just cooing at me, i tried to continue but then started fussing big time and really screaming for around 30 mins i could not even settle her in my arms! so she was worse than i have ever known, it did not really sound like when she is overtired but more like "mom there is no way i am going to sleep i dont want to miss out!" could it be that she really does not need such a long nap or is it resistance because she is tired? and what should i do when she wakes so jovially after 20 mins? and what A time should i aim for as neither seem to work, i really cant read her cues she shows no signs of tiredness apart from crankiness, as she rubs eyes and yawns as soon as she awakes. i would really appreciate your comments i am more confused than ever!!!

[malialeanne]

To answer your first question, I would count "nap time" from the time she's in her crib and quiet. And yes, A time starts when they wake and includes changing, etc. When dd wakes from naps she's generally happy and up, but first thing in the a.m. she makes noise, quiets, makes noise, quiets, then plays in her crib for a while before getting up. So if she spends a 1/2 in her crib doing that, I could half of that time as A time, if that makes sense.

Your A times seem about right. I still would keep the same A time or just very gradually try to extend--don't be tempted to put her down super early thinking that will make things easier, imo it's harder to put down an undertired baby than an overtired one.

I still think it might be an independent sleep issue. There's a "jolt" that happens at about 20 minutes and if she's not used to sleeping independently in her crib then she'll wake. It sounds like she sleeps well at night, but day sleep and night sleep are controlled by different parts of the brain. If she consistently wakes at the 20 minute point, you can try staying with her and gently patting or holding down her limbs (whatever works for you) to ease her past the jolts before she fully wakes. Eventually she'll be able to get through the jolts on her own.

When we were trying to extend naps the key was getting in there before she woke fully, otherwise she would never go back down.

How long have you been doing pat/shh, do you do it for night and naps, and how long does it usually take?

[RACHPEM]

I dont normally need to do it in the evening but in the day 1 have done it for an hour or more it really does depend on her mood today for eg she would not go down for a nap at all and screamed for around a good half an hour at each nap time (did not leave her though) just kept trying to do sh pat but she got herself into a real state. to be honest today i have not really stuck at it as i wanted to clarify the right amount of A time for her first as i was unsure if she was resisting due to too short or too long. So you think I should stick with 1.45-2hr A time? and 15-20 mins wind down? does this sound right? if she does settle after shh pat then i normally stay around 20 mins although the other day i stayed until 45 mins and managed to keep her asleep.  I have been reading Traceys comments on starting EASY at 4 months and know i have got some hard work ahead of me if i want it to work, but how long should i give it before it kicks in as i would hate to get so far think it has worked and then it falls apart!
just one final thing on shh pat if she is really upset (she normally goes down ok it is when i try to keep her asleep should i pick her up or leave her in crib as today i tried to leave her and it just did not work, i then tried picking her up as soon as i picked up she was quiet until she hit the matress again, i know it will take some doing but i want to make sure i am doing it right as i would hate to think i am upsetting her more.

[malialeanne]

Hi. If she's not doing well on nearly 2 hours of A time, you can try DECREASING it. I know it's challenging to find the right balance. Spirited babies tend to need shorter A times up to about six months. They also do better in a dark room and sleep best in their cribs--too many distractions outside. Many babies also need a shorter A time first thing in the morning.

Also, the winddown time is part of the total A time. A time includes feeding, changing, wind down, everything up until you have them back in the crib.

[RACHPEM]

Today has been a complete nightmare!!!! I had to get out of the house today I am driving myself insane! put Maya in pram for her afternoon nap, I walked for an hour to get a total of 20mins from her my feet are killing!then she had a complete melt down all afternoon could not get her to settle until 3.30 by which time i think she was so exhausted she fell asleep for 1.5hrs tommorow is another day though!

[RACHPEM]

Just a couple more questions today she awoke again at 6.15 (she had quite an early bedtime yesterday due to me not being able to get her to sleep) and to be honest she always tends to wake at 6.30 anyway regardless to what i do, so would i feed at 6.30 and make all subsequent timings from that time ? or wait until 7am?
Secondly she could not manage anymore A time than 1hr 15 which i then put her down and she settle fairly well, i need some clarification on shh pat though.  If she fusses I take it I shh pat until she settles then continue for a short time? what tends to happen is she will awaken at 20min jolt, so do i shh pat until past this point? or just wait until just before and put me hand on her then, ?
If jolt does wake her which is what tends to happen then she just looks at me do i start shh pat again and do i do this until she drops off again? then what happens at the 45 mins jolt as she could not put herself back to sleep at this point also do i do shh pat again or should i be doing pu/pd at this age?
I kind of winged it this morning at managed to keep her asleep for 2 hours at each nap even though she woke at 20 and 45 mins.  but i dont want to be doing it wrong in case i become the prop.
btw her next A time was 1hr 45mins.
thanks again

[malialeanne]

If you would ideally like to start the day at 7 a.m., it's probably best to hold off feeding her until then if you can. Of course, if she's crying and hungry, you should feed her when she wakes. But if you always feed her at 6:30 a.m. she'll always be hungry at that time, so if you can distract her until 7 that might be a good idea.

Re: Shhh/pat -- when you first begin shh/pat, you do it until they are completely asleep. This can take over 20 minutes, and when I first started I continued through the jolts. As time goes on, probably within a week or so, you will notice that you can stop earlier and earlier and she stays asleep. Here's a link to shh/pat and how to do it: https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=26672.0

I think you'll find that things will improve if you concentrate on crib sleep. She doesn't seem like a good pram napper.

[RACHPEM]

Maya managed to have 2, 2 hr naps and one 30 mins yesterday however she was worse at night than she ever has been, she has always settled really well at night at normally sleeps until df then straight back down and 1 night waking, maybe due to the fact she is so exhausted as a rule. last night however she went to sleep at 6.30 which is her normal bedtime and plus i could not keep her awake any longer, then she woke at 8.30 then at 10 then at 12.30 could it be she has had to much sleep in the day (although she did go back off)or after a day of doing shh pat realised she needs this to get hr back off at night when she has always been able to settle herself? what do you think, is it still worth perservering with daytime naps and then it will all sort itself out!!! also she was such a different child yesterday during her A time so she does do better after a nap. let me know what you think.
Also I have read on another board that if your child does not wake up crying they dont need more sleep, Maya never cries when she wakes and is always alert and normally starts smiling at me but after around 30 mins of awake time is cranky again so is this a sign she needs the sleep?
today i did shh pat for 20mins she had eyes closed and looked asleep but as soon as i moved my hand she woke should i continue for all her sleep as how do i know she is really asleep?