Naps getting worse! guidance needed

[malialeanne]

Hello again. If she's taking 2 2-hour naps plus a catnap, you are not likely to get 12 hours of sleep at night. You can't force a baby to sleep beyond their need. Around 14-15 hours would be more average, which means you should aim for 10-11 hours at night and around 4 hours of daytime sleep.

Yes, if you're just starting shh/pat and she's waking when you stop, you need to keep doing it until she's in a very deep sleep--when she "melts into the mattress", all muscles relax and you hear even breathing. You can gradually reduce the time you are patting. Here's a link to shh-pat: https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=26672.0

HTH,
Malia

[RACHPEM]

Hi, she is still sleeping from 6.30-7pm till 6-6.30 but is just finding it harder to settle herself back off during the night where she was fine before, today she has had 2 naps of 1.45 and one 45 mins she is just so tired still during the day i know it is tiredness and not boredom as she is just not interested in anything we try to do even sitting with a  book she fidgets. we have been trying to do a 4 hour as Tracey suggests when started a routine with a 4month but do you think we should go back to a 3.5hr?
Also with the shh pat I have read the link but Maya just never seems to completly relax her eyes are always never quite closed today for her first nap i did shh pat for 1hr and 40 mins and still after this time there was still a gap, tonight she has also resisted her bedtime, she was falling aslleep on bottle as she always does but then as soon as down she was fussy this was never the case before do you think it was because she was so tired before? and if i stick to the napping she will go back to settling herself again eventually?

[RACHPEM]

Last night was the worse night ever, she would not settle in crib at 7pm although she was nodding off on my lap when I was doing the wind down she eventually dropped off at 7.30pm and although she was not crying she was unsettled until her next feed at 10.45 went down without any fuss but then woke at 12.30,2.30 and 5am but i could still hear her all night. Why do you think this is? the previous night she woke up every 2 hours from 7pm until 1am.  even if she is having too much sleep in the day surely she should be able to go a longer stretch! it has only been since i have tried to implement a routine.
Just a quick question, you mention that her naps were too long the other day with 2 2hr naps and 1 30mins, however in your suggested routine you suggested 2 2 hr naps and 1 catnap with a wake up at 7 and bedtime at 7.30 so i am a little confused now to what she should be doing, the sleep timings for her age also suggest 2, 2hrs and 1 catnap or a 3hr so i would appreciate if you could clarify this for me , gosh this is so hard!!!!
Thanks again

[malialeanne]

Hi. Every baby is different and needs a different amount of sleep. My dd cannot sleep 4+ hours during the day and still sleep well at night. That is the amount of sleep in Tracy's sample 4-hour routine and the sample routine above, but every baby is different. We do about 3.5 hours in the day and 10 hours at night.

Your dd may still be adjusting to the routine. You just have to experiment to find what works for her. If she was sleeping well at night but not napping well, and now she has started to nap well but is not sleeping at night, that indicates that something is off in her sleep distribution. Babies need to nap, at her age it should be one nap midmorning, one early afternoon, and a short nap in the early evening. However the nap lengths can be variable according to what works for her. She may have become overtired and is now making up for it with long naps which are making her night sleep unsettled.

[RACHPEM]

Things are not much better in fact she seems worse than ever, she knows now when we are doing wind down and will start to fight me and scream!! this makes no diff whether her A time is 1.30-1.45 - 2hours she resists hugely, I have tried shh pat and although I have read the link I am not sure I am doing it right as it seems to get her more worked up.  today i managed to settle her and stayed with her, she woke around 30 mins and i tried to get her through but she just laughed at me, so I gave up and within 15 mins she was hysterical I could not calm her no matter what I did. she was like that for an hour and i was really at the end of me tether, she then continued to cat nap throughout the day prob totalling 2hrs max sleep and was pretty wingy throughout, she had another meltdown around 5pm then was fine still no sleep though, and got through her bath and story time better than ever, then when i turned out lights she started although she settled fairly well. please show me where i am going wrong.

[malialeanne]

When you first begin shh/pat it is very difficult. I had to do it for about and hour each time at first. You may be stopping too soon at 30 minutes if she immediately wakes. ***You have to be very consistent with both shh/pat and the winddown to have success.*** Some babies don't like the patting or respond better to shh/pat with slight alterations; you'll need to expiriment to find what works best for you. If you have a specific shh/pat question, I advise you to post a question on the gen sleep board and they can help you.

When people are having lots of trouble with EASY sometimes it helps to "turn the clocks to the wall", ignore set schedule times, and just really try and tune into your baby's cues for a couple of days. Some patterns might emerge that will help you figure out the best A times and nap times for her. Also, I advise you to keep a log of total day and night sleep--total hours and times down and up. This will also give you some insight.

[RACHPEM]

Right, thought I would update you, we have been consistently doing the same for around 4 days now, things are a little better, and I am finding if I stay with her through the 45mins she will stay asleep, my only concern is am I now becoming a prop as she will not go down easily at night now I have to follow the same principle as in day? also will she start to get through this on her own soon, as i feel like i spend all my time in her nursery and need to see a light at the end of the tunnel? previously we chatted about too long naps in day but I find that once I get her through her 45 mins she wil normally stay asleep for 2 hours, her A time is still generally 1.45 but after her afternoon nap she gets tired again around 4.30-5pm we have tried both 30 mins nap and 45 mins at this time, she still then is rubbing eyes, and getting fussy at bedtime, I dont know what to do we have tried to aim for a bedtime of around 7-7.30 but this does seem to late, for her even with a nap, so should i eliminate the last nap and put her down earlier? she has also been falling asleep at 6-6.30 at her feed but then waking at 8.30 the last 2 evenings and not getting back to sleep until 10pm although as soon as i pick her up she will drop off on my shoulder, not sure if she could be hungry? finally she has started to sleep from 10pm until 5.30 which is great but again not sure what i should do i have tried to put dummy back in this has not worked, and tried to give her a smaller amount of formula but she cries when i take the bottle away, so i have ended up giving her the full bottle, which she then went back to sleep yesterday until 7am, however today she woke at 5.30 and would only sleep in my arms!!! advice much needed again,
Thanks
Rachael

[malialeanne]

No, I don't believe that by staying with her during naps you are creating a prop. In my opinion nap extension techniques don't often become props as short naps are usually more related to developmental age and A times than independent sleep.

It will get better soon if you stay consistent. I think it took us about 2 weeks of staying with her before the time got dramatically shorter.

She is a bit young to drop the catnap. Most babies aren't ready for this until A times are about 3 hours and nap 2 ends close to 4 p.m. Many babies are pretty fussy in the evening. You can try keeping the catnap and moving bedtime up a bit. Sometimes our last A time after the catnap is only 1.5 - 1.75 hours as my dd gets very fussy as bedtime approaches.

It's VERY difficult to get babies to go back to sleep when they wake up around 5 or so. At that point you just need to do what you can to get her to go back down. If the dummy or a few minutes of rocking works, great. Here's a link to a FAQ post on early wakings with some things you can try to correct them: https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=87109.0

HTH! Keep up the great work!

[Alison_3]

Hi there.  I just read your post and I'm in a similar situation...

First of all, don't ever feel guilty for looking forward to your lo's bedtime or naptime!  We all need a break.  Ds#1 is 2.5 years old and I still look forward to his naptime...mainly because he talks to me all day long!

Ds#2, Charlie is almost 5 months old.  He sleeps great at night usually going 6-8 hours straight with one nightwaking.  Naps are a completely different story.  Like you the minute his in his crib during the day he screams.  I barely get down the steps, turn the monitor on and then he's awake.  It's VERY, VERY frustrating, I know. 

Charlie has pretty severe reflux so in theory nighttime should be much worse for us.  The pediatrician said not to worry so much about naptime that nighttime sleep is much more important.  Easy for him to say when he's not in my house every day!!  Unfortunately, with a 2.5 year old running around my house, I can't spend the required time to pat/shh Charlie, extend his naps, etc.  Even if I could, I'm not sure it would work. 

Like someone had mentioned earlier is what I am doing.  Charlie naps wherever I can get him to sleep during the day.  To me, at this point it's easier than dealing with an extremely grouchy overtired baby.  He sleeps in his swing most of the time.  I know- PROP, PROP, PROP.  I am hoping with some hard work on my part and as he gets older we'll get to two nice naps in his crib.  But for now for my sanity and keeping up with my toddler this is what we do.

I just wanted you to know that I do know what you're going through and it's difficult, frustrating, exhausting, etc.  Hang in there.  You're such a great mommy for wanting to work so hard for you lo! 

You've received great advice from others.  Good luck to you!

[RACHPEM]

Okay, just a few more questions, for now anyway.  The last 2 days she has been going down for naps a little easier, should I do shh pat if she goes down ok or only do it when needed? as I am just concerned about the consistency.

2. She is managing to get past the 20 min jolt on her own but at 30-40 mins tends to stir and 40 mins will wake regardless to whether she gets herself off or I stay doing shh pat, should I step back once calm and then do something to extend her nap, ie put hands on her?

3. If I miss this or she does wake crying as she normally does, again do I step in asap or wait?

4. If I should intervene, should I do shh pat or pu/pd to help her?

5. Does it then take so long this cycle or is she more likely to drop off quicker ?

I so want to suceed at this as she is so much more pleasant when rested, I just wish my dh would agree with me, he just thinks she is an alert baby and does not need as much sleep, he also thinks I am obsessed with her sleeping( which i do tend to agree with) but I am the one who has her on a daily basis he only sees her at her best!!! which does always tend to be on his day off so maybe he is right!

I feel so worn down by the routine though and being in her room our dr has told us to try the crying it out method, which i really dont want to do, but everyone i talk to has said this is what they did and had instant results which makes it so tempting! I guess I just need some reassurance that I am doing the right thing at the moment and it will make her self settle soon! it is just so hard.

Should I try pu/pd or continnue with sh pat, as in Traceys book it reccommends pu/pd when staring a routine with a 4 month old so i am a little confused as it makes it sound like pu/pd is more of a self soothing tool, please advise me . btw i really appreciate all your help.

Rachael

[malialeanne]

Hi. It takes a while to establish a good routine but it's SO worth it! You said yourself that you're making progress! You can totally do it w/o CIO and you will feel so great when she's sleeping well and you know that you helped to teach her.

Your questions:

1. It's VERY common for babies to wake at that 40 minute point, esp when just starting a routine. FYI most babies outgrow the short naps as long as they can sleep independently and A times are appropriate. But for now, yes, go back in at 40 mins or just before she begins to stir and gently calm until she's back to sleep. This often works best if you get to her at her FIRST stirring before she wakes fully.

If she does wake, use shh/pat or calming method to get her back to sleep. I would not wait when she wakes early as she's not likely to go back to sleep on her own without help (she's had a bit of sleep and thinks "great, time to get up!"). You are not creating a prop by helping her to get back to sleep, she will outgrow the need for this intervention soon.

You can use shh/pat to calm, or a variation of it (some babies don't like the shhh or don't like the pat, you have to find what works best for your lo) and pick up only if she gets too worked up, putting down immediately when calm (if she doesn't calm after several minutes, put back down and work on calming in the crib, pick up again if needed). Your lo is still on the young side for pu/pd so I would avoid doing more than a few pickups, as this might overstimulate her.

DHs just don't understand do they? BW mommies are all obsessed with sleep, join the club.

Once she starts getting the hang of this, you stop patting when she's quiet and settled, start back up again if she needs you, repeat repeat repeat. This way she eventually learns to go to sleep without your help. When you first start though and for the first couple of weeks of sleep training, you do pat for longer if needed.

YES, this absolutely takes longer to work than CIO but it's so much easier on both of you, and you're not breaking the bond of trust with your lo by leaving her to cry.

Good luck, focus on your progress! You can do it!

[RACHPEM]

Hi Malia, thanks again, I just needed to hear it will all be worth it, today has been quite a good day, i will type as follows to see if it looks ok to you.  (it has been more or less the same the past few days).
Awake at 6am ( although she was stirring around 5.30am so never sure when to time her A from)
go in open curtains.
E 6.30am
A 6-7.45
S 7.45-9.45 ish
Y got a whole hour today did not know what to do!!

A 9.45-10.30
E 10.30
A 9.45-11.15 she was really tired at this point and had a mini meltdown!
S 11.30 -1pm
Y another 1/2 hr

A 1pm-2pm
E 2pm
A 1pm-2.30 again really tired so attempted a cat nap
S 3pm- 3.40
 
went a short walk at around 4pm then started bedtime routine as she was again quite fussy and not interested in anything, she had a bath, massage, dress, bottle, story and I put her down around 6pm she was settled at 6.30 and I am now keeping my fingers crossed!!!!

She does still seem to require a lot of sleep considering her age, I think she must be making up for the past 18wks, but I just wish she would wake a little later even if it was only 6.30.

I think this is the first time I have also posted my routine without making some of it up!!

[malialeanne]

Hi there. So glad things are improving! Looks like you got a 2 hr am nap, 1.5 hr pm nap, and 40 min catnap--awesome!!!

It looks like it took her awhile to settle for her second 2 naps so you might take a look at those A times--if she can pretty easily do 1 hr 45 mins for her first A time she should be able to do at least that long for later A times, so make sure you're following cues but not trying to put her down TOO early. At close to 5 months she should be able to do longer than 2 hours, but as you said she may be extra-tired now and making up for lost sleep.

You can go back to the early wakings FAQ I posted above. There are a number of things you can do to try and adjust wake time but you will probably want to wait until her routine is more settled. As her A times increase her bedtime will probably move a bit later, possibly resulting in a later wake-up. I wouldn't push her bedtime right now, though.

Congrats!!! Keep up the GREAT work.

[RACHPEM]

Well, she went down at 6pm as i mentioned earlier, asleep by 6.30pm, she was very restless most of evening but no crying and she did not wake until her df at around 10.45-11pm, she went straight back down I heard her around 3.30-4am but again I think it was a mantra cry as it was just a short wail, i waited but no more crying, and she slept until 6am, I actually feel really emotional! lets keep our fingers crossed that theres more to come.m
Another word on our dh, it is so amazing how they sleep through, as a mother you hear every noise, so I still dont feel totally rested but it is better, but my dh never stirs! men eh, they dont know how easy they have it,
hugs
Rachael

[malialeanne]

Yes, just because she sleeps through doesn't mean you do! Congrats on the good night though! Good day sleep leads to good night sleep, so it's a result of your hard work!

My dh sleeps like a log too. I'm actually envious of his ability to sleep though everything while I hear every noise. I guess men are just wired differently.