Waking way to early and night wakings

[Leasmom]

Well I'm back 
I have worked with the wonderful women on the EASY board and seem to have our EASY routine down quite well 
My daughter is 8,5 months old and this is our routine so far:

7.30 wake up and BF
8/8.30 solids
9.30 Nap for about 1.5 hours
11 wake up and BF
12 solids
2 nap
3 wake up and BF
Between 4 and 5 solids
6 bedtime routine and
7 sleep

She breastfeeds a lot more than this though and will want additional bf especially in the evening between 3 and 7.

She seems generally the most tired between her morning nap and waiting for nap number 2, by the time it is 2 pm she is exhausted and "throws" herself to sleep. Sometimes I feel she would be ready for her nap at 1 pm, but that would mean she woke around 2 pm and then it is too long too go till bedtime at 7 pm 

We have been working on her going to sleep on her own without me holding/breathing in her face/settling her so much and the last few days we have had great progress and she has gone to sleep in between 6 and 20 minutes with me just sitting next to her shushing a bit when she gets upset and giving her the paci. Have also been working on letting her put the paci in herself and she does that sometimes, but sometimes she cries and gets really "offended" and just opens her mouth and wants me to put it in 

Between 7 pm and 10 pm she wakes every hour needing our reassurance ( wants the paci and a shush, but no touching/ sometimes she even has her paci in her mouth but needs our shush and goes right back to sleep)

At 10 she won't settle unless I bf her 

Then she will sleep till 1 when she needs more bf-ing. This wake up is pretty regular. Last night I tried dreamfeed her at 12.50 but she still woke at 3

She wakes again at 3- 3.30 and needs bf-ing. This wake up is pretty regular.

Since we started EASY she has started waking up at 5 pretty much every day and is NOT going down again. Today she wasn't asleep till 6.30 am again  And that was after a lot of shushing, patting, changing a poopy diaper ( we finally found out she had pooped at 6 pm ) and after the diaper change I gave her a sippy with water, but ended up nursing her as she just seemed hungry, she nursed like she was hungry..
She slept again till 7. 20.. We also tried taking her over into our bed, but didn't work either, she was just fuzzy and wanted something which I don't know what is or tried attacking my boobs and BF-ing.

I am so tired. My husband is tired. I am so frustrated 

What are we doing wrong??

Now it is 8 am and she is fuzzy and tired and doesn't want to play..

I feel my milk supply is going down too, maybe I am just too tired to make milk.

She doesn't eat a lot of solids yet. About one ice cube size puree every time and some organic bread...

Please HELP

P.S.
I feel i should come with some extra info and that is that my DD was born 3 weeks early and had stopped growing for 10 days prior to that ( because of Blood pressure issues) so she was only 2190 gramms when she was born, which is very small and i had to wake her to feed every 2-3 hours for a long time,she fell asleep on the breast and was pretty much like a preemie..

So if I take that into account she is only 7,5 months old and I just have to admit that 3.5 hours in activity time is just too much for her, she can't take it 

p.s. I actually feel that this applies to us too: https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=46907.0 And i think I have probably gotten her used to bf whole meals at night  Ones last week I tried eliminating the 3 o'clock feed and I almost got mastitis, allthough she woke up at 5 to drink again. So I am fairly sure she is hungry and if I were to night wean her totally she would be hungry and I could never let her go to sleep hungry  Can I try to wan the night feeds one at a time? How will I do that? Keep a  df and wean between 12 and 5 or something? She wakes up crying at night and will cry until she gets breast or paci..

[Colin Macs Mom]

I feel i should come with some extra info and that is that my DD was born 3 weeks early and had stopped growing for 10 days prior to that ( because of Blood pressure issues) so she was only 2190 gramms when she was born, which is very small and i had to wake her to feed every 2-3 hours for a long time,she fell asleep on the breast and was pretty much like a preemie..

So if I take that into account she is only 7,5 months old and I just have to admit that 3.5 hours in activity time is just too much for her, she can't take it 

This is VERY important info. Has she caught up to normal height/weight, developmental achievements? Chances are she genuinely needs those extra feeds at her age to compensate for her being so small at birth. What do you think?

Have you considered using some sort of white noise in her room? It seems she really likes that with the shushing from you. A fan or something like that?

[Leasmom]

She is 14,99 pounds now, that is 6,8 kilos, so she is doing very well weight wise. Her doctors are really happy about her progress and weight gain. She is a petite girl, but not skinny, she has folds on her thighs, but she is not chubby. Developmenatally wise she is doing good. Sat up at around 6 months, rolls both ways, goes up on "almost " all fours as a prestage to crawling. I know that many 8 months old are crawling all over, but she is also very "social" and attentive and seems very much in tune with her environment. They seem more conserned about me   My blood pressure is still high and I don't have any other issues that could lead me to have high blood pressure, like being obese or smoking for example. So it is really a case of me needing more sleep and rest, at least that is one factor.

I feel that she needs one or two of the nightly feeds, but I am just not sure that it needs to be every 3 hours   Also she is waking a lot just to make sure we are there it seems. Sometimes she has the pacifier in her mouth when I come in, she just wants me to sit by her side while she travels into her next sleep stage. Sometimes she wants me to put the paci back in.

I put on a cd with whale noises at night and also have one of those sleep sheeps, but it doesn't seem to make a difference, do you think I should try to keep it on for longer stretches at night?

We have been practising going to sleep without me holding on to her-breathing in her face- tucking her in-rocking and she now goes to sleep with her paci and bear while I sit beside her, but not touching her. It takes her anywhere from 5 to 20 minutes to fall asleep. This is very good progress for us, and I started in small intervals with holding my hand on her, shushing and moving on to this. What would next stage be? Moving further away from the crib?
I thought that since she falls asleep without needing me she would not wake up sp often, but it doesn't seem to make a difference?

One more question: In another post that is on the board now, one of the moderators is talking about the "independant sleep prosess" when they wake up really early, like 5 or 6 and you should try to get them back to sleep. I have Tracy's books but haven't gotten round to reading everything, just got them in the mail from amazon, so I was wondering if someone could clarify this for me?

Anyways, I just wanted to also say that the EASY routine is going much better and she seems to be getting used to the strict timings for naps etc. she falls asleep in 5 minutes for the naps, must mean her body clock is getting used to it? 

[Colin Macs Mom]

They seem more conserned about me   My blood pressure is still high and I don't have any other issues that could lead me to have high blood pressure, like being obese or smoking for example. So it is really a case of me needing more sleep and rest, at least that is one factor.

Sounds like she's doing very well!    I can relate to your issues though, I had pregnancy-induced hypertension with Colin and was on bed rest 6 weeks before he was born    and am still on BP meds even! The sleep and rest factor really does help - is there anyone who can relieve you for a couple hours once and while so you can nap or at least relax?

I feel that she needs one or two of the nightly feeds, but I am just not sure that it needs to be every 3 hours   Also she is waking a lot just to make sure we are there it seems. Sometimes she has the pacifier in her mouth when I come in, she just wants me to sit by her side while she travels into her next sleep stage. Sometimes she wants me to put the paci back in.

No, at her age she certainly does not need to eat every 3 hours at night. In fact it's quite unusual for a LO her age to need a night feed at all, but it's not unheard of. At this stage though it's usually an issue of needing to adjust daytime intake and wean the night feeding.

I put on a cd with whale noises at night and also have one of those sleep sheeps, but it doesn't seem to make a difference, do you think I should try to keep it on for longer stretches at night?

Does your CD player have a repeat setting so you could have the CD just turn over?

We have been practising going to sleep without me holding on to her-breathing in her face- tucking her in-rocking and she now goes to sleep with her paci and bear while I sit beside her, but not touching her. It takes her anywhere from 5 to 20 minutes to fall asleep. This is very good progress for us, and I started in small intervals with holding my hand on her, shushing and moving on to this. What would next stage be? Moving further away from the crib? I thought that since she falls asleep without needing me she would not wake up sp often, but it doesn't seem to make a difference?

That IS very good progress! And yes, next stage would be moving farther and farther away until you're out of the room. That sort of technique also works well with separation anxiety. It's a process, and she will adjust and not wake so often - just takes time to sink in.

One more question: In another post that is on the board now, one of the moderators is talking about the "independant sleep prosess" when they wake up really early, like 5 or 6 and you should try to get them back to sleep. I have Tracy's books but haven't gotten round to reading everything, just got them in the mail from amazon, so I was wondering if someone could clarify this for me?

Do you recall which thread that is?

Anyways, I just wanted to also say that the EASY routine is going much better and she seems to be getting used to the strict timings for naps etc. she falls asleep in 5 minutes for the naps, must mean her body clock is getting used to it? 

Yep 

[Leasmom]

Oh, I was also on bedrest for many weeks before the birth, isn't that the worst  I was at the hospital for 2 weeks before the birth and was hardly allowed to move  I thought it was so hard giving birth after having had to lie down for weeks, I had NO energy... My plan was to move a lot in the birth and envisioned it being all natural and was even looking into water birth, but had to lie in the bed with the monitor on me all the time with 5 doctors checking on me  lol

I am actually going to see the doctor tomorrow and he will then decide if I need to start medication again  i will tell you how that goes.

I found this comment in another message here:

"The other thing is DON'T swap & change between feeding to sleep & putting to bed awake as that is totally unfair to your lo... kind of like someone teaching you a new car route in 5 different ways, before you master it in one... you just don't understand & can't learn how to get from A to B. You need to be 1000% consistent & when I went through this stage with ds#1, I went to bed when ever he did, so I got as much sleep as I could, cos it is hard. "
 
This is the discussion it is taken from: https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=57296.0

So when i feed her at night, is that feed unraveling all the good work I have done in getting her to sleep independantly? When i feed  her a tnight she will fall asleep at the breast and I put her back in her crib..

 When she wakes up at night I can sometimes get her back to sleep with paci and a bit of shushing, but about 1 pm, 3pm and 6 she will absolutely want to bf. Last two nights I have tried holding back the bf for the 3 o clock wake up, but that makes her so mad, that the only way I can settle her again is to let her lie close next to me. I was also extremely engorged, because she disn't drink again then until 6 in the morning.. I think i almost got a plugged duct from that one  had to put hot packs on it.

Tonight we had a little set back, she fell asleep with me sitting a little bit away from the crib, but then woke up after 3 minutes and I couldn't console her again, she was very uncomfortable and crying with tears  horrible for the mommy heart  In the end after I had tried to breath in her face and hold a hand on her, I took her in my lap and laid down and she fell asleep lying on top of me. We were tummy to tummy. I transitioned her to her crib and she is still sleeping after almost 3 hours, with no paci.. She is lying on her tummy, but I have never let her sleep like that as I am so afraid of SIDS. What is your take on that after 8 months of age? Is it ok? She can roll back and forth, but not sit up on her own or crawl. She is obviously very comfi. i think her issues tonight had to do with it being so light in her room  My hubby is working on getting his a.. in gear to put up more blinds in the bedroom  I hope he will finish that after the fishing trip he is on now.. Does this setback "mean" anything? Couldn't it just have been the light? and she will be back to normal for her morning nap? I am really so proud of us for that progress, thank you. This is the baby that could not be put down EVER in her first 3 months and slept in my lap a lot. We even didn't use her crib that my mom had sewn this beautiful fabric on 
 
I agree with the night feeds needing to stop, but isn't it best that I work on the going to sleep on her own first and then adress that issue? I am just hopoing you all will hold my hand through all of this. I have had so much progress just from being on this site for about a week, You are such a great help to me and my family, thank you again.

I am trying to find the thread that I found the comment in.. will beb back with that..

Ok, I think I have been rambling.. But to sum it up: I continue with the go to sleep without assistance routine and post back to you here about where to go from there?

[Colin Macs Mom]

Oh, I was also on bedrest for many weeks before the birth, isn't that the worst  I was at the hospital for 2 weeks before the birth and was hardly allowed to move 

        yikes, I thought I had it bad!!

I found this comment in another message here:

"The other thing is DON'T swap & change between feeding to sleep & putting to bed awake as that is totally unfair to your lo... kind of like someone teaching you a new car route in 5 different ways, before you master it in one... you just don't understand & can't learn how to get from A to B. You need to be 1000% consistent & when I went through this stage with ds#1, I went to bed when ever he did, so I got as much sleep as I could, cos it is hard. "
 
This is the discussion it is taken from: https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=57296.0

So when i feed her at night, is that feed unraveling all the good work I have done in getting her to sleep independantly? When i feed  her a tnight she will fall asleep at the breast and I put her back in her crib..

Ok I see what you're getting at now. A LO can achieve independent sleep but still feed at night. The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. BUT, you have to know for sure that the feed is necessary and not habit - which in your case it is more like habit. Sorry, I know that's probably not what you want to hear. 

 

When she wakes up at night I can sometimes get her back to sleep with paci and a bit of shushing, but about 1 pm, 3pm and 6 she will absolutely want to bf. Last two nights I have tried holding back the bf for the 3 o clock wake up, but that makes her so mad, that the only way I can settle her again is to let her lie close next to me.

I know this isn't what you want to hear either, but at her age she does not NEED those BFs, she WANTS them, just like you said. So you have a choice to make about what to do about it. You can do nothing and accept the wakings, you can ditch two or maybe even all three cold turkey and have a few nights of absolute hell, or you can wean the feeds. The choice is entirely yours - not a fun one to make I know.

She is lying on her tummy, but I have never let her sleep like that as I am so afraid of SIDS. What is your take on that after 8 months of age? Is it ok? She can roll back and forth, but not sit up on her own or crawl. She is obviously very comfi.

Once a LO is rolling both ways you can't really control how they sleep anymore. I mean, I guess you could but that's an awful lot of work and lost sleep for you. There is much less of a risk of SIDS after 6 mo. although it is present until 12 mo or so. Still, once LO can roll both ways it's much safer to have then sleep in the position they choose because they can move themselves as needed.

i think her issues tonight had to do with it being so light in her room  My hubby is working on getting his a.. in gear to put up more blinds in the bedroom  I hope he will finish that after the fishing trip he is on now.. Does this setback "mean" anything? Couldn't it just have been the light? and she will be back to normal for her morning nap? I am really so proud of us for that progress, thank you.

Light can have a lot to do with it - some LOs just can't sleep unless it's pitch dark. In the meantime you can put tinfoil over the windows - a lot of folks around here have done that and swear by it.
 

I agree with the night feeds needing to stop, but isn't it best that I work on the going to sleep on her own first and then adress that issue? I am just hopoing you all will hold my hand through all of this. I have had so much progress just from being on this site for about a week, You are such a great help to me and my family, thank you again.

Of course we will hold your hand - that's what we're all here for.    I found this board in a period of total, utter devestation and hopelessness so believe me I can relate! Isn't it a shame we can't get this kind of help and support otherwise? Ok I digress....  Which thing you choose to work on first is your choice, there's not necessarily a better thing to go with first. The feeds or the independence - totally up to you. They're sort of related.

Ok, I think I have been rambling.. But to sum it up: I continue with the go to sleep without assistance routine and post back to you here about where to go from there?

Sure - just remember that all of this takes time and patience.

[Leasmom]

OK.. Last nigth she woke every 2-3 hours to nurse 

I am sick with a bad cold and had taken Melatonin to get some sleep, as my own sleep pattern is so messed up with the night wakings

So everytime she woke I jsut nursed her, her dad had tried the paci, but didn't work.

Now I want to continue working on the independant going to sleep and implement the gentle removal plan, I have Pantleys book and have tried it before but wasn't consistent 

So I have some questions. When I put her in her crib she takes about 20 minutes to fall asleep, fussing a bit allthough she has her paci. i sit beside her and don't touch her. When she falls asleep, should I then try the gentle removal? It seems hard since she is nearly asleep and I am so happy she is falling to sleep on her own  Won't I then be "touching" her? Will i have to sit in her room for 4 hours and do the gentle removal thing over and over again? She wakes so much in the beginning of the night that I think she would wake up every time she realises the paci is gone. I might be wrong though and I should just try it , right?

With the gentle removal plan: after she wakes up in the night and I feed her and she is almost asleep I put her in her crib and then she usually wakes up, then i have to put the paci in her again.. Do I do the gentle removal then?

Will this work you think? I noticed that when I was doing th egentle removal plan some time ago, that she was at the stage that she was spitting it out on her own, when she was almost asleep.

What would you recommend? I just have to be honest and say that I can't take the cold turkey night weaning. It is too hard for me and for her  She is very attached to me and also very spirited and we tried it ones and her dad took night duty and in the end I caved, i couldn't do it. I know it will be so much harder now since she is older and has a stronger will (and cry)..  How could I do it otherwise? Wean one feeding at a time?

Again, I just say, please help. We are tired and miserable.

The EASY is a bit different every morning, because she never wakes up at the same time, sometimes 6 sometimes 7 and very rarely 7.30, which was supposed to be her wake up time  i get her back on track during the day though so it turns out ok. Her naps have been shorter too, an hour each 

i found this quote: "For Breastfeeding you can reduce the time they suck on the breast... so if a normal feed is 10mins, reduce to 8, then after a few days to 6, then 4, then 2 & then none... I actually only reduced to about 4mins & then stopped.
The other thing is with night feeds make sure you take them off as soon as the suck is not good & strong."
i found it in this discussion:  https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=46907.0

I want to try this! Tonight I am going to write down the times of her bf and for how long they last and then cut them back! Wow now I feel excited again (like I feel every time I see something new about babies sleep I could try lol 
 
 
 

[Colin Macs Mom]

Now I want to continue working on the independant going to sleep and implement the gentle removal plan, I have Pantleys book and have tried it before but wasn't consistent 

I'm afraid I'm not familair with the Pantley book    Consistency though is absolutely critical. Before you start anything, you need to be sure you can follow through and not give in. Otherwise you will have the old problems plus new ones too.

So I have some questions. When I put her in her crib she takes about 20 minutes to fall asleep, fussing a bit allthough she has her paci. i sit beside her and don't touch her. When she falls asleep, should I then try the gentle removal? It seems hard since she is nearly asleep and I am so happy she is falling to sleep on her own  Won't I then be "touching" her? Will i have to sit in her room for 4 hours and do the gentle removal thing over and over again? She wakes so much in the beginning of the night that I think she would wake up every time she realises the paci is gone. I might be wrong though and I should just try it , right?

It's hard to say how she will react. I suppose, worst case scenario, that you could be there for 4 hours doing it over and over. Or, she might surprise you and you'll only have to do it once or twice. So yep, you'll have to give it a try and see what happens. Just remember that nothing changes overnight so you'll need to stay with it and be patient. Easier said than done, I know!

With the gentle removal plan: after she wakes up in the night and I feed her and she is almost asleep I put her in her crib and then she usually wakes up, then i have to put the paci in her again.. Do I do the gentle removal then?

Yep. You can always try just not offering it and see what she does.

What would you recommend? I just have to be honest and say that I can't take the cold turkey night weaning. It is too hard for me and for her  She is very attached to me and also very spirited and we tried it ones and her dad took night duty and in the end I caved, i couldn't do it. I know it will be so much harder now since she is older and has a stronger will (and cry)..  How could I do it otherwise? Wean one feeding at a time?

Cold turkey generally isn't something that works with a spirited LO, trust me I know!! It also takes a lot of perserverance and not everyone can handle that. I know I couldn't either. Nothing wrong with that!! So in that case, go with the weaning one by one.

The EASY is a bit different every morning, because she never wakes up at the same time, sometimes 6 sometimes 7 and very rarely 7.30, which was supposed to be her wake up time  i get her back on track during the day though so it turns out ok. Her naps have been shorter too, an hour each 

Yes, a consistent wake time is important. For one thing it will give her the idea that she will get up each day at a certain point and it will help her sleep at night better - she will begin to understand that she needs to be sleeping because she will start the day regardless, KWIM?

i found this quote: "For Breastfeeding you can reduce the time they suck on the breast... so if a normal feed is 10mins, reduce to 8, then after a few days to 6, then 4, then 2 & then none... I actually only reduced to about 4mins & then stopped.
The other thing is with night feeds make sure you take them off as soon as the suck is not good & strong."
i found it in this discussion:  https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=46907.0

I want to try this! Tonight I am going to write down the times of her bf and for how long they last and then cut them back! Wow now I feel excited again (like I feel every time I see something new about babies sleep I could try lol 

Yes, that is a fabulous weaning technique that has given many people great success. There is a sticky in the FAQ section of this board called "How I stopped the night feeds with a 9 mo old" that you should definitely read. That process is described in detail there for BFing as well as bottle feeding.

[Leasmom]

Hello again..
My baby girl has been sick during the weekend and her sleep has developed into a very bad pattern  She sleeps for about 30 minutes at a time during the day and will not sleep longer, no way 
At night she has started waking up every 2 hours to nurse, between that she will sleep like a rock or need her paci I am really tired and I am just sitting here crying while I write this 

I don't know what to do 

My plan is now this: No night drinking between 2 and 5 and all other breast feeds will end after 5 minutes. I will keep working on the going to sleep alone without physical contact as this has also gone out the window and we have done everything to get her to sleep, as she has just been crying and fighting sleep like crazy..
What do you recommend? I was thinking about increasing her time between feed every 2-3 days, and also move all awake feeds out of the bedroom,so that when she wakes in the morning we go into the living room to nurse, does that make sense ?

I feel like such a failure and I feel like I am a stereotype: accidental parenting at its worst    She isn't eating much during the day at all, so I need to increase her daytime intake versus her nighttime intake..

Will she ever sleep in like 5-6 hour stretches?? What should we try to do when she wakes at night to calm her down without nursing? What soothing methods can we use that don't make it worse? Is it ok to pick her up and rock her or will this only make things worse?

There are some sleep experts here in Iceland that have done some research on babies sleep and they talk about 8-9 month olds being able to stay awake for about 5 hours before bedtime, isn't that a long time?

[Colin Macs Mom]

I'm so sorry. My DS has been sick as well plus teething, and the last 3 nights he's been waking up screaming hourly.    It's so hard sometimes! You're not a failure at all - when a LO is sick you have to do what you have to do to keep them comfortable and get them well.

Sounds like your LO is overtired, and just like you said, she's gotten used to eating at night instead of during the day. The best plan for that is to wean the night feeds like you said, and you should see an increase in daytime intake to balance that.

You don't want to pick her up and rock, that will quickly become another prop and you will only swap one problem for another. You want to soothe her in the crib without picking her up, ideally. I assume she's pulling up, so do PD if necessary.