Author Topic: Baby-Led Weaning Support Thread #1  (Read 88029 times)

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Offline Aly Mac

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Re: Baby-Led Weaning Support Thread
« Reply #225 on: July 22, 2007, 22:09:06 pm »
L doesn't seem to like brocoli either  :P  I put some on her plate yesterday and she didn't know what to make of it?  pushed it around and went for the other food.  ON that, should you offer one at a time? I know if I put cheesy toast and veges, she will go for the cheesy toast. should you do one at a time????

feeding while out, I've been naughty and gone with the mushy stuff - yoghurt with fruit chuncks and I feed her.  I know it's not blw but I know she will eat it.  mind you only really done it a couple of times and am planning on just giving her what we are eating now anyway.  need to get away from the mushy stuff, just find it hard in my mind to thnk she is not eating enough!
Aleesa.....


Offline Wink's Marmy

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Re: Baby-Led Weaning Support Thread
« Reply #226 on: July 22, 2007, 23:48:20 pm »
Last night and tonight, we ate out and gave her food from the restaurant. tonight she got a whole plateful of avocado and cilantro lime rice. I put the food on the table and she ate it from there. Her hands touch the ground that she crawls on, then go strait to her mouth, so I am a little lax about germs now. I was out of wipes tonight so I just ran a wet napkin over the table before hand.

So, about the meat... How do you give meat?



Offline Aly Mac

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Re: Baby-Led Weaning Support Thread
« Reply #227 on: July 22, 2007, 23:52:20 pm »
Sounds like WK did really Jenn!

As for meat. There is a recipe that Alison gave us for little sausages.. It's amongst this post
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=92561.msg904600#msg904600

But I just give L bits of cooked chicken, turkey etc.  Again, in the shape of a chip so she can hold it.  She likes to suck all the juices out of it.  I have found white meat easier for her to digest that red meat (seemed to go right thru her).  So I'm holding off a little while.

hth
Aleesa.....


Offline Wink's Marmy

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Re: Baby-Led Weaning Support Thread
« Reply #228 on: July 23, 2007, 00:37:28 am »
Thanks Aleesa for the link and of course Allison for the recipe! I will have to try that!

Let me get your opinions on our meal tomorrow night. Its lentils and brown rice with onions, oil, a bit of garlic and mild curry. Its all very mushy really and we eat it on whole wheat pita with lettuce & plain yogurt. Minus the yogurt (as I am holding off on dairy till she is a bit older) does that sound OK to give her? And if I *try* to follow the BLW how does this work? Should I just put it in a pita like we eat it and give her a half a pita to hold & chew?



Offline Aly Mac

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Re: Baby-Led Weaning Support Thread
« Reply #229 on: July 23, 2007, 07:08:51 am »
Aleesa.....


Offline Aly Mac

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Re: Baby-Led Weaning Support Thread
« Reply #230 on: July 23, 2007, 07:09:51 am »
Oh Jenn, in response to your q.  I haven't braved anything that mushy as a finger as yet (scaredy cat I know.  :o )  I say, just go for it!!!
Aleesa.....


Offline Bryony

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Re: Baby-Led Weaning Support Thread
« Reply #231 on: July 23, 2007, 08:34:36 am »
Well, we tried cucumber this morning for breakfast, but it was a bit too slippery to pick up, then when Katie eventually picked it up she wasn't that impressed....  I thought she might enjoy sucking on something cool as I thnk she's teething, but she preferred the rice cakes!

Re broccoli - I think the reason Katie loves it is that I eat masses of it so I am sure my milk must taste of it!  On that basis she is going to luuuuuve chocolate....

I was very impressed though this morning that Katie managed to pick up her sippy cup with both hands and put the spout into her mouth.  She needed a bit of help to tip it high enough to get the water out, but she did really well!  And for the first time I didn't have to change her out of her wet clothes afterwards...

Jennifer - that meal sounds lovely!  Katie would not have the dexterity yet to eat it I don't think but I suspect she would like it if she could get it in her mouth.  Let us know how you get on!

Bryony


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Offline Cathy_D

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Re: Baby-Led Weaning Support Thread
« Reply #232 on: July 23, 2007, 08:50:43 am »
Hi everyone!

Just wanted to introduce myself as I've been lurking here for a while, and reading up on BLW as I'd really like to try this when DD starts on solids.  But I feel rather torn .... on the one hand BLW seems to make perfect sense - why 'teach' a child only to eat mush onto to 'un-teach' it later on when you start to introduce lumps?  But then again, if it is so obvious and natural, why on earth have we ended up in a situation where it is normal for mums to spend hours pureeing stuff if they don't need to?!

My basic philosophy for most parenting things is to ask 'what would women and their babies have been doing for most of the generations before us, all around the world, before the modern so-called experts, and marketing people, got in the way?' and then do that!  So far it has worked for labour, breast-feeding and cloth nappies. But I can't work out that the 'nartural' way of weaning would have been - presumably not purees, but unlikley to be steamed broccoli either!!

Like everyone else, I'm concerned about her choking.  And about what everyone else is going to say if we do this (pathetic, I know!)  Tried sounding my mum out on the idea at the weekend and she seemed sceptical - and raised the choking concern. I explained about the theory that babies grip develops in line with their ability to swallow so she shouldn't be able to pick up stuff that will do her serious harm.  At which point, DD grabs a teaspoon off the table and shoves the whole bowl of it into her mouth!!!  Obviously she couldn't have swallowed it, but she did seem to be making herself quite uncomfortable which didn't really help my arguement  ;D
Possibly a good indication that she's going to want to feed herself at some point soon, though ?!

The fact that children do manage to pick things up and then choke on them makes me think it can't be quite as straightforward as 'leave them to their own devices and they 'know' what is good and bad for them' - can it?

DH is a bit sceptical too but generally happy to let me make these kind of decisions - he's already used to us being the 'odd' parents amongst our friends, because of the cloth nappies!!  So if I get myself really convinced that this is the way to go, I don't think he will object.  But I do want to be able to answer the 'you have to feed purees first because of choking' brigade convincingly before I feel able to start.

Anyway it is really encouraging to be hearing about how all your LOs are doing, and to have access to recipes etc. So, thanks!

Cathy
Cathy




Offline Aly Mac

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Re: Baby-Led Weaning Support Thread
« Reply #233 on: July 23, 2007, 10:48:28 am »
Welcome Cathy.

Well you have a little while yet to make your decision.  I ended up doing both, which is kind of silly now.  Only I found BLW after I started with the puree.  I've decided today - no more! not going to make any more, she now has what we have or some variation. wil let you know how we go.  My lo is older though. 

good luck and if it's something you really want to do, stick to your guns.

Aleesa.....


Offline Bryony

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Re: Baby-Led Weaning Support Thread
« Reply #234 on: July 23, 2007, 12:04:10 pm »
Cathy - I was really interested to read your post, as the "what would our ancestors have done?" question is one I often use too when making decisions about Katie.  In terms of the weaning, I think cave woman would have been more likely to have given cave baby bits of boiled veg and fruit to chew on, than to have given puree etc. I guess she would also have pre-chewed tougher bits of meat etc initially and then popped them into cave baby's mouth.  Although who knows what they really did...!

In terms of choking, I suspect the main risks are harder, non-food items - buttons, pen caps etc, which would not have been around in cave baby's day. Hmmm, that theory doesn't work for peanuts though!  Personally I also lightly steam carrots and apples etc so that they are not hard, and therefore less of a choking risk.

I bought an advocado this morning so will look forward to trying that later!

Bryony


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Offline Wink's Marmy

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Re: Baby-Led Weaning Support Thread
« Reply #235 on: July 23, 2007, 12:50:31 pm »
Boy, I wonder what those cave women did without chocolate!  ;)



Offline Elvira

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Re: Baby-Led Weaning Support Thread
« Reply #236 on: July 23, 2007, 13:12:44 pm »
Cathy, because I also think "what our ancestors have done for tens of thousands of years".... and used that approach with my own dd.... actually, what they did was masticate themselves something and put a little bit on their children,s lips.  And that is still how it is done these days in "primitive" people.

So, it was not quite a puree, but it certainly was not a solid like brocoli or carrot, the texture would be more like a mashed thing and the amounts minute to begin with.  The approach of solids may work better if you start late; the way we do it here, which is at 6 months, I started with cereal mixed with milk in a fairly consistent texture (not liquid), which meant feeding with spoon but I also provided my dd with her own spoon, that she was dipping and licking from day one.  Followed that with fruit for afternoon, also in a puree, and veggies+meat (yes, a puree as well!) for lunch.  It is the way the doctors tell you to do it in Spain.

It really did not matter much, meaning I was letting her use a spoon - very often her own fist - to experiment and lick away and she was not an addict to purees beyond her first  year at all, because certainly she also picked up any pieces of our food that we offered her.  I did not offer meat, though (or ham-meat products) as it seems to be involved in a lot of choking accidents in the very young and the elderly (i.e. no molars, or faulty molars).   So for that, it was either puree or finely ground in small  portions....


Offline Freya'sMum

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Re: Baby-Led Weaning Support Thread
« Reply #237 on: July 23, 2007, 18:49:44 pm »
Well... I don't think that anyone can actually categorically state how the cave-people fed their babies, 'coz none of us were there, we can only make educated guesses, so it is possible that they did chew up food and offer it to their los, and it's equally possible that babies picked up and gnawed on what they could too, no reason there wasn't a bit of both going on!

Now, this is a BLW support thread, so to keep on track let's revisit Gill Rapley's theories... This is rather long, but should answer the questions our more recent posters have asked ok? Here's the link: http://www.borstvoeding.com/voedselintroductie/vast_voedsel/rapley_guidelines.html

Ax


by Gill Rapley, adapted by Stefan Kleintjes, dietician
These guidelines have been adapted from the original, which were developed as a result of a small piece of research carried out by Gill Rapley as part of a Master's degree. Gill's interest in the introduction of solid foods is independent of her work for the UNICEF UK Baby Friendly Initiative.

Breastfeeding as the basis for self-feeding
Exclusive breastfeeding is recommended for the first six months of life. Breastfeeding is the ideal preparation for self-feeding with solid food. Breastfeeding babies feed at their own pace – indeed, it is impossible to force them to do anything else! They also balance their own intake of food and fluid by choosing how long each feed should last. Breastfeeding is essentially self-feeding, with the baby in control of the process. And, because breast milk changes in flavour according to the mother's diet, breastfeeding prepares the baby for other tastes.

It is not clear whether a baby-led approach to the introduction of solids is appropriate for babies who are bottle fed; more research is needed to establish this, since bottle-feeding seems to be more mother-led. It is difficult to predict how bottle-fed babies will manage solids, so we need to be careful. However, as long as care is taken to ensure adequate fluid intake (see below), there would be nothing inherently wrong in adopting this approach. It is recommended that parents of babies who are being bottle (formula) fed discuss the matter fully with their health advisers if they wish to use this method.

Understanding the babies motivation
This approach to introducing solids offers a baby the opportunity to discover what other food has to offer as part of finding out about the world around him. It utilises his desire to explore and experiment, and to mimic the activities of others. Allowing the baby to set the pace of each meal, and maintaining an emphasis on play and exploration rather than on eating, enables the transition to solid food to take place as naturally as possible. This is because it appears that what motivates babies to make this transition is curiosity, not hunger.

There is no reason for mealtimes to coincide with the babies milk feeds. Indeed, thinking of (milk) feeding and the introduction to solid food as two separate activities will allow a more relaxed approach and make the experience more enjoyable for both parents and child.

Won't he choke?
Many parents worry about babies choking. However, there is good reason to believe that babies are at less risk of choking if they are in control of what goes into their mouth than if they are spoon fed. This is because babies are not capable of intentionally moving food to the back of their throats until after they have learnt to chew. And they do not develop the ability to chew until after they have developed the ability to reach out and grab things. Thus, a very young baby cannot easily put himself at risk because he cannot get the food into his mouth in the first place. On the other hand, the action used to suck food off a spoon tends to take the food straight to the back of the mouth, causing the baby to gag. This means that spoon feeding has its own potential to lead to choking – and makes the giving of lumpy food with a spoon especially dangerous.

It appears that a babies general development keeps pace with the development of his ability to manage food in his mouth, and to digest it. A baby who is struggling to get food into his mouth is probably not quite ready to eat it. It is important to resist the temptation to 'help' the baby in these circumstances since his own developmental abilities are what ensure that the transition to solid feeding takes place at the right pace for him. This process is also what keeps him safe from choking on small pieces of food, since, if he is not yet able to pick up small objects using his finger and thumb, he will not be able to get, for example, a pea or a raisin into his mouth. Once he is able to do this, he will have developed the necessary oral skills to deal with it. Putting food into a babies mouth for him overrides this natural protection and increases the risk of choking.

Tipping a baby backwards or lying him down to feed him solid food is dangerous. A baby who is handling food should always be supported in an upright position. In this way, food which he is not yet able to swallow, or does not wish to swallow, will fall forward out of his mouth, not backwards into his throat.

Adopting a baby-led approach doesn't mean abandoning all the common sense rules of safety. While it is very unlikely that a young baby would succeed in picking up a peanut, for example, accidents can and will happen on rare occasions – however the baby is fed. Rules of safety which apply in other play situations should therefore be adhered to when eating is in progress.

Won't he start eating solids too early?
The babies who participated in the research were allowed to begin at four months. But they were not able to feed themselves before six months. Some of the younger babies picked food up and took it to their mouths; some even chewed it, but none swallowed it. Their own development decided for them when the time was right. Part of the reason for this study was to show (based on a theory of self-feeding) that babies are not ready for solid food before six months. It seems that we have spent all these years working out that six months is the right age and babies have known it all along!

It seems reasonable to predict that if parents choose to provide babies with the opportunity to pick up and eat solid food from birth they will still not be able to do it until around six months. The principle is the same as putting a newborn baby on the floor to play: he is being provided with the opportunity to walk but will not do so until about one year – because his own development stops him. But: everything depends on the baby being in control. Food must not be put into his mouth for him. Since it is very tempting to do this, it is probably safer to recommend that babies should not be given the opportunity to eat solid food before six months.

Ensuring good nutrition
Babies who are allowed to feed themselves tend to accept a wide range of food. This is probably because they have more than just the flavour of the food to focus on – they are experiencing texture, colour, size and shape as well. In addition, giving babies food separately, or in a way which enables them to separate them for themselves, enables them to learn about a range of different flavours and textures. And allowing them to leave anything they appear not to like will encourage them to be prepared to try new things.

The opposite appears to be true for a baby who is spoon fed, especially if food are presented as purees containing more than one flavour. In this situation the baby has no way of isolating any flavour he doesn’t like and will tend to reject the whole meal. Since his parents can only guess which food is causing the problem, they risk more food rejection until they track it down. In the meantime, the baby learns not to trust food and the range of food he will accept can become severely limited. This can lead to his overall nutrition being compromised. Offering food separately, but together on the same plate, allows the baby to make his own decisions about mixing flavours.

General principles of good nutrition for children apply equally to young babies who are managing their own introduction to solid food. Thus, 'fast food' and food with added sugar and salt should be avoided. However, once a baby is over six months old there is no need, unless there is a family history of allergy or a known or suspected digestive disorder, to otherwise restrict the food that the baby can be offered. Fruit and vegetables are ideal, with harder food cooked lightly so that they are soft enough to be chewed. At first, meat is best offered as a large piece, to be explored and sucked. Once the baby can manage to pick up and release fistfuls of food, minced meat works well. Note: babies do not need teeth to bite and chew – gums do very well!

There is no need to cut food into mouth-sized pieces. Indeed, this will make it difficult for a young baby to handle. A good guide to the size and shape needed is the size of the babies fist, with one important extra factor to bear in mind: Young babies cannot open their fist on purpose to release things. This means that they do best with food that is chip-shaped or has a built-in 'handle' (like the stalk of a piece of broccoli). They can then chew the bit that is sticking out of their fist and drop the rest later – usually while reaching for the next interesting-looking piece. As their skills improve, less food will be dropped.

What about drinks?
The fat content of breast milk increases during a feed. A breastfed baby recognises this change and uses it to control his fluid intake. If he wants a drink, he will tend to feed for a short time, perhaps from both breasts, whereas if he is hungry he will feed for longer. This is why breastfed babies who are allowed to feed whenever they want for as long as they want do not need any other drinks, even in hot weather.

This principle can work throughout the period of changeover to family meals if the baby continues to be allowed to breastfeed 'on demand'. A cup of water can be offered with meals as part of the opportunity for exploration but there is no need to be concerned if he doesn’t want to drink any.

Continuing to feed 'on demand' will have the added advantage of allowing the baby to decide how and when to cut down his breast milk intake. As he eats more at shared mealtimes, so he will 'forget' to ask for some of his breastfeeds, or will feed for less long at a time. There is no need for his mother to make these decisions.

Formula milk has the same consistency throughout the feed. If the formula-fed baby were to be given milk as his only fluid he would be at risk either of not getting enough fluid, or of consuming too many calories, or both. Parents who are implementing this method of introducing solids with a bottle-fed baby should therefore offer their baby water at regular intervals once he is seen to be eating small quantities of food.

DOs and DON'Ts for baby-led introduction of solids
# DO offer your baby the chance to participate whenever anyone else in the family is eating. You can begin to do this towards the end of the sixth month. Around this time most babies start showing an interest in watching you.
# DO ensure that your baby is supported in an upright position while he is experimenting with food. In the early days you can sit him on your lap, facing the table. Once he is beginning to show skill at picking food up he will almost certainly be mature enough to sit, with minimal support, in a high chair.
# DO start by offering food that is baby-fist-sized, preferably chip-shaped. As far as possible, and provided they are suitable, offer him the same food that you are eating, so that he feels part of what is going on.
# DO offer a variety of food. There is no need to limit your babies experience with food any more than you do with toys.
# DON'T hurry your baby. Allow him to direct the pace of what he is doing. In particular, don't be tempted to 'help' him by putting things in his mouth for him.
# DON'T expect your baby to eat any food on the first few occasions. Once he has discovered that these new toys taste nice, he will begin to chew and, later, swallow.
# DON'T expect a young baby to eat all of each piece of food – remember that he won't yet have developed the ability to get at food inside his fist.
# DO try rejected food again later – babies often change their minds and later accept food they originally turned down.
# DON'T leave your baby on his own with food.
# DON'T offer food that presents an obvious danger, such as peanuts.
# DON'T offer 'fast' food, ready meals or food that has added salt or sugar.
# DO offer water from a cup but don't worry if your baby shows no interest in it. A breastfed baby is likely to continue for some time to get all the drink he needs from the breast.
# DO be prepared for the mess! A clean plastic sheet on the floor under the high chair will protect your carpet and make cleaning up easier. It will also enable you to give back food that has been dropped, so that less is wasted. (You will be pleasantly surprised at how quickly your baby learns to eat with very little mess!)
# DO continue to allow your baby to breastfeed whenever he wants, for as long as he wants. Expect his feeding pattern to change as he starts to eat more of the other food.
# If you are bottle feeding, or have a family history of food intolerance, allergy or digestive problems, DO discuss this method of introducing solids with your health advisers before embarking on it.
# Finally, DO enjoy watching your baby learn about food – and develop his skills with his hands and mouth in the process!
Alison x






Offline Cathy_D

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Re: Baby-Led Weaning Support Thread
« Reply #238 on: July 23, 2007, 19:03:01 pm »
Thanks for the link, which I had already found and read and thought was really helpful.

The thing I'm still confused by is where they say (under the section on choking) ... "if he is not yet able to pick up small objects using his finger and thumb, he will not be able to get, for example, a pea or a raisin into his mouth"

I'm sure they know what they're talking about, and I *want* to believe that this is true, but on that basis, surely babies wouldn't ever choke on anything they've found for themselves? But as we know, crawling children can find, pick up, and swallow all manner of things that they can then choke on.

I know no-ones suggesting that we offer LOs the opportunity to try eating things that pose a risk, and they go on to warn about not leaving BLW babies unattended when eating.  I just don't quite what this quote m,eans - it sounds like it means "babies can't pick up things that they would be in danger of choking on" and that doesn't seem to match what we observe  ???

Sorry if this sounds argumentative - I don't mean to.  Just a bit confused!
Cathy




Offline Freya'sMum

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Re: Baby-Led Weaning Support Thread
« Reply #239 on: July 23, 2007, 19:31:48 pm »
Cathy, I'm not sure how to reassure you...? :-\ Let me try from my own experience... Eryn has never choked on food or other things, but she has put plenty of stuff in her mouth that she shouldn't ::) what she tended to do, even as a young baby, was chew whatever she put in there over and over, but never try to swallow, like she knew not to! Gill does encourage trusting babies, giving them credit for their innate instincts, even when young.

Babies will only be able to pick up foods that they are also orally capable of eating, fine motor and oral skills developing simultaneously. So they will only be able to pick up a risky non-consumable (button etc) at this same stage of development, but it doesn't matter how developed their oral skills are, they'll never be able to chew a button, so the choking risk remains the same until they learn not to put them in their mouths in the first place! Does that make sense?

Not sure if that helps - struggling to explain myself this evening!

Ax
Alison x