Need help with PM wind-down

[Sugarmama]

Hi there,
 I have been trying for a 7 pm or so bedtime with my 23-week DD. She is on four-hour EASY. Am currently using W2S to extend naps, as she has been waking at around 35 min. Just started using W2S, though.

This post is to discuss how I should do the pm wind-down. I start her last awake bottle at 6 pm, as she will start eating then, but she is a slow eater (am ruminating on see a gastro for dysphagia possibilities) and can take 45 min. to finish 6 oz. I try to get more in her for this pm feed, though and the feed, plus rocking/feeding her before the crib sometimes gets up to 8 or more in her.

Anyway, up to 1.5 wks. ago, we struggled even more with pm wind-down. She would start massively fussing after up from catnap at 5:35-6. Then Mom only could rock with her and switch between paci and bottle to finish a bottle and then rock and into crib at around 7:30.

Since then she's a bit better when up from catnap. (By the way, the wind-down is hard now for both catnap and pm sleep.) We change her into jammies at around 6 then start the bottle. But instead of rocking with the bottle, we put her propped up on the couch, and we lay by her and feed her. She still wants breaks. We watch Wheel of Fortune quietly, and the lights from the TV across the room hold her attention a bit and seem to help her from getting fussy, etc. But she does start showing cues as early as 6:30; however, even if we take her up to room then and swaddle and put down, she's sleepy when we put her in the crib, but she fully alerts and babbles/cries, etc. for sometimes over an hour! We haven't been picking her up to re-rock, etc., as we feel like Tracy says once she's in the crib, you commit to the crib. Is this right? BTW, if we ignore the 6:30 cues, we feed until 6:45, say, it's much the same.

In addition, sometimes we don't see cues until MUCH later, so should we wait to begin wind-down until she shows cues, even if this isn't until 8? Or, do we begin wind-down and put in the crib when she's sleepy and just deal with it?

Some have suggesting nixing the catnap, but she definitely shows cues at around 5 or earlier for this and sleeps a full 35 min. usually. Do you nix the catnap even if they're using it? She does have the babble/cry routine for at least 10 min. before settling in the crib with the catnap now, whereas she didn't used to. But, remember, she does show clear sleepy cues for the nap?

Thanks so much!

[meltown]

I would definatly suggest cutting the cat nap.  you may need to move bed time up a bit until she can handle more actvity time.  it takes a couple days-weeks for it all to even out.  she isn't tired enough to be ready for bed with the cat nap, which is why she has trouble.

[Sugarmama]

Okay, thanks. So, I need to up her A time. With W2S today, her naps were indeed better, not perfect, but better. And that's great for me! But she slept for only 1 hr. 40 the first nap and 1.5 hr. the second. I'll take that, though! But I didn't put her down for the naps until around 5 to 9 a.m. and 5 to 1 p.m., so really she was up nearly 2.5 hrs. for A time for each  nap today.

Can you give me a standard EASY schedule with the catnap nixed? I have heard that sometimes babies still need their nap 1 at 9, as they're more tired in the a.m. Is this right?

So, would it look like
7 am wake and feed
9 am-10:30 or 11 nap

And that's where I get confused. I mean, how long do I keep her up before her next nap if she doesn't get to go to bed until 6:30 or so?

I have a few (okay more than a few questions) based on this:

And is 6:30 early enough for bed then? Do I just get as much in her for her last feed before putting her to bed? Do I wind her down at a certain time or wait for her cues?

Some say that their babies wake, thinking they just had their catnap, so I just use a reassurance method until then? (One gal said she offered a bottle at that waking until the baby slept through.)

When will I know I can move her bedtime back to 7 p.m.? And ... should I expect different a.m. wake times then? 

Thank you so much!

[meltown]

I would go by cues.  if your Lo is tired at 9:00 put them to down for a nap at 9:00  if you can stretch that just a bit then that would be good.  I would adjust the bedt time according to when the wake up is.  for my DS because I was doing bed time wind down he just went to sleep early and his wake time in the morning was about the same. if you get her to extend Awake time in the morning to 2.5 hours lets say so the 1st nap is from 9:30-11:00 and the second nap would be 2.5 later so 1:30-2:00 would be the next nap then 3:00-3:30 awake and bed by 6:00 or 6:30.  depending on when she wakes up would be bed.  you probably don't want to go longer then 3.5 hours before bed because then she will be overtired.  it will be just a few weeks until it  evens out.  try to extend the morning just a bit and go by cues, not the clock to much. 

try it out and if she wakes after 45 min then just try to help her get abck to sleep.  I think if you do the bed time routine before you put her down she will get the idea and not wake, but some babies still do, but you never know until you try!

[Sugarmama]

Hi there, thanks for the info.
Before I forget, would I get help on adjusting an into to solid food schedule based on this from the solid foods board probably, huh? I'll go over there for that then.

Pasted this from yours:
try it out and if she wakes after 45 min then just try to help her get abck to sleep.  I think if you do the bed time routine before you put her down she will get the idea and not wake, but some babies still do, but you never know until you try!

You mean, if she wakes after 45 min. from night sleep, right? If she does do that, do I just use a reassurance method, or should I do another wind-down? I'll bet if I do another wind-down she'll just get hooked on that huh, and think that it was just a catnap?

She had her p.m. nap from 1-2:30 today (shorter than the 2-hr. nap yesterday) and then I cut her 5 p.m. catnap down today to 20 min. (rather than her normal 35 min.), but I still had a ens of a time getting her to go to sleep at around 7. She finally fell off at 7:45. She was babbling energetically at 7:30 (from 7-7:30) when I accidentally sneezed. She freaked, poor thing! I had to pick her up--she was soooo scared. So then I did succumb to rocking her a bit more until she relaxed again--basically another wind-down. I felt like this scare was my fault, and usually I don't lift her out, so I didn't worry about that. But I don't think she would have gone to bed until 8 again.

I would like to explain my wind-down and see if you see glitches:

For the naps, I take her upstairs at 15 min. prior to my hoped-for naptime. I set her in her crib (I had been reading a book softly up to last wk., but some moms suggested that since she's spirited, a book might be too much? Due to visual stimuli perhaps?) and let her play with soft toys while I stroke her satiny arm (I love her soft arms!) and say a prayer over her. Once she shows sleepy cues--fusses, eye scratches, yawns, etc.--I swaddle her, take her to the rocker, rock for a few min. until she's calm, set her in her crib still slightly awake, and lay my hands on her until she's asleep. Then I leave the room.

The bedtime wind-down is harder. This is because I swear I see cues sometimes--fussiness esp., but eye rubbing, etc.--as early as 6:15 or 6:30. So you'd think she's ready for bed, right? I'm feeding her. Sometimes I've taken her up to bed then and tried to put her down. Sometimes I keep feeding until 6:45. Regardless, it seems like if I take her upstairs and swaddle her, then try to tank her up with a few more oz. while rocking her "down" to sleepy, once she's in the crib, she fully awakens and babbles. I would have guessed that today with the reduced p.m. sleep--a full 50 min. less than yesterday, for instance (except she did have a better a.m. nap today than yesterday)--that she would have gone down more easily.

Does anything stand out to you as suspect, or is it all a matter of eliminating that catnap altogether?

Once I make this catnap switch, should I try to limit her major naps to 1.5 hrs. each rather than 2 hrs? I had read in Tracy's info to go for 2 hrs. each and a 12 hr. stint, from 7-7 at night, but the boards seem to imply that around 14 hrs. is more what you can expect, huh?

In terms of the following her cues for naptimes, you say I should try to stretch out awake time to at least 2.5 hrs. but that I should follow her cues. I anticipate that I'll see cues at 8:50, etc. still--her regular times. You say to be careful because I want to avoid overtired. Can you tell me what I will see if she's overtired? This is something I have been wondering, and I don't think I know the diff. between cues of overtired and too much sleep.

I want you to know that I REALLY appreciate your time with these questions. I am entering unfamiliar territory here!

[Sugarmama]

Should have added to the above my lingering concern of making Josie overtired. Most of my concerns stem from my reading of Tracy's second book, pgs. 200-204. Tracy warns against ignoring a baby's cues (which you warn against, too):

p. 201: "Tip-Off #5: Overstimulation [overtiredness] is at least in part responsible for your baby's sleep problem: My baby doesn't settle down to sleep easily." Josie's wind-downs for catnap and bedtime are getting harder, but, then again, I don't think I've been ignoring her cues, do you?

If I try to extend Josie's A times later, I am concerned about her warning on p. 202: "I've also found that parents sometimes ignore their baby's sleep cues. Do you frequently keep your baby up longer because you think he will sleep longer? This is one of the most destructive sleep myths. The reality is that if you keep him up past his sleep window and allow him to get into the overtired zone, he not only won't stay asleep longer, he'll have a restless sleep and perhaps even wake prematurely."

I'm not trying to get Josie to stay asleep longer, I guess (except for her naps, which have reduced to 35 min.-45, and which I've been extending using W2S), but I'd like her to have the naps she needs and go down easier when she does need sleep. I'm not sure what to do about her p.m. cues specifically. Am I missing them and really I should put her to sleep at 6:30 when I sometimes see them? But surely she doesn't need to go to sleep at 6:30 when she's had a 35 min. catnap until 5:35, does she? But really I worry about Tracy's warning as it pertains to the catnap. I will be ignoring cues for that one, I think, as she gives them at around 5 and sleeps solid for 35 min., though I have had a harder time lately than the other two naps getting her to fall asleep for it.

Tracy says on p. 44: "Many babies between 4 and 6 months take a ... catnap in the late afternoon. ... Parents worry that the extra nap will ruin nighttime sleep. It's just the opposite: The more rest your baby gets in the day, the better she will sleep at night."

It does seem like--given Tracy's definitions--that Josie could be overtired for the catnap and bedtime. Or, are these just similar symptoms to a different problem?

I want to eliminate that catnap if it's the right thing to do, but I don't want to hurt Josie's sleep.

Hope I'm not being too annoying; just thought I should ask about these things, as they have been on my mind, but I haven't realized how to work them in until now.

Thanks again!