Author Topic: Where to begin?!?  (Read 1278 times)

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Offline Maia&Lia

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Where to begin?!?
« on: May 17, 2007, 20:26:56 pm »
Per Malia's request, I'm posting here on the naps forum so that I can get some feedback/help with my 6 month old.

Our biggest issues right now:
1. 45 minute naps
2. multiple night wakings
3. eating more at night than during the day
--all of these would *hopefully* be resolved with a little more structure in our routine (a better EASY), but we're struggling.

Here is our story:
Lia has never been a great daytime sleeper and recently her nights have gotten out of control. I'd feel pretty comfortable in saying that she has lost the ability to put herself back to sleep when she wakes at night or from a 45 minute nap. When she was 4 months old we got rid of her pacifier and helped her to learn to self soothe. Since then she's been putting herself to sleep for naps and nighttime, but recently has been more unsettled and required more help to fall asleep. I've noticed that she has started to lengthen a nap here and there on her own, but can't figure out what is different from one day to the next so that I can duplicate whatever worked.

Lastly, I know that we're going to need to do something with nighttime sleep as she has been waking much more frequently for feeds and is therefore not hungry during the day.

Whew, not sure that any of this makes much sense. Please feel free to post whatever questions & I'll do my best to answer them. I realize our routine needs tweaking...

Thanks again!
-Alessia
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Offline malialeanne

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Re: Where to begin?!?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2007, 22:08:33 pm »
Hi Alessia,

Can you post your routine? You knew I'd ask, right? ;) Also, how often does she wake at night and are you feeding at all wakings? How many feeds at night?
Malia



Offline Maia&Lia

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Re: Where to begin?!?
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2007, 02:39:51 am »
Hi Malia,
Thanks for checking in...

I've kept a record of the past few days so that I could get a good sense of what has been happening. Unfortunately there isn't much of a routine at the present time. I strive for wake up to be at 6:30 am. Bedtime is around 6:45/7 pm. We do things a little earlier in our house because my husband needs to be up & showering by 6:30 & Lia is still in our bedroom (we're currently house hunting). Also, since we have 45 minute naps most of the time, the routine gets all mixed up. Sometimes she can go 2 hrs between naps and other times she'll be fussing 10 minutes after waking. I've tried extending the naps by doing pat/shh and PU/PD, but have had minimal success. Typically she'll end up crying for 30+ minutes and I end up throwing in the towel because Maia (my toddler) needs my attention OR she'll fall back asleep and just keep jolting herself awake every 10 minutes thereafter. I've considered doing wake to sleep, but I'm afraid our house might prohibit that from working (super creaky floors, toddler running around and doors that stick closed & make an obnoxiously loud "bang" when opened).

Anyway, I'm rambling. So since we have a wake up time that fluctuates between 5:00 am and 6:30, there is no predictablity with what time she'll go down for her first nap...and unfortunately no predictability regarding how long it may have been since she woke up. Really, the only thing that typically remains consistent is the 45 minute nap. :(

Since the night wakings definitely tie into the daytime stuff, I'll answer that before posting our routine (or at least the one we strive to have). Her typical night consists of 2 night wakings lately. We don't dreamfeed (never have). Anyway, she'll usually wake around 10 or 11 pm and then again in the wee hours of the morning. But, last night was really bad. She woke at 10 pm, 1 am (and was up for 2 hours while I attempted to get her back to sleep without nursing) and then up for the day at 5:30. I've always thought it was reasonable for her to wake once a night in order to eat, but lately it has been every 3 to 4 hours, sometimes sooner. Her diapers in the morning are soaked, if not leaking and then she has no interest in her first few feeds.

We've talked about cutting out night feeds all together (since when we were doing PU/PD to eliminate the pacifier she slept through the night 4 nights in a row and it doesn't seem she is very hungry during the day because of the night feeds). I'm just not sure how to go about it. Cold turkey? Cut down the time of the nursing? Grr. I'm so frustrated because we only ended up in this situation after going on vacation & all of us shared a room.

Gosh, trying to type out our routine seems like a joke since it is so all over the place. Sometimes 3 naps a day...other times 5. Sometimes the day is 14 hours long, other times only 12.

I guess I don't really know what to post re: routine. I'm hopeful that someone can help to outline HOW I should get back to a good EASY, with the 45 minute nap issue.

-Alessia
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Offline Maia&Lia

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Re: Where to begin?!?
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2007, 02:42:59 am »
Oh and I should mention that today she took 2 naps that were both 1.5 hours, however...I nursed her before each nap because she had refused her 1st morning feed. Anyway, since that was the case, her feed time was exactly the same time as her nap time. I nursed and then read her book for her nap & put her down awake.

Looking back on my log of the past few days, it seems that this *might* be a trend that she follows (naps longer if I've nursed her right before the nap).

Just thought that was interesting since I was re-reading my spreadsheet.

Actually, is there any way that I could post the spreadsheet? If I could, it might make it easier for you guys.
Alessia
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Offline malialeanne

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Re: Where to begin?!?
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2007, 18:58:39 pm »
Alessia,

I don't know of a way to post the spreadsheet. You could email it to me, though.

I am going to ask some EASY/sleep mods to check in, since your main concern is your overall EASY routine and night feeds.

I think that striving for a consistent start time to the day (difficult, I know) and striving to keep A times as consistent as possible while still watching cues will be key to getting your EASY back on track. At six months, as long as she is sleeping decently at night, she can probably handle A times of at least 2 hours. Of course, you know her best, but even with bad moods and fussiness I would strive as much as possible to keep her A times consistent within 1/2 hour. Not saying that all A times need to be the same throughout the day, some babies need shorter A times first off and can do longer ones later (although we seem to be opposite of that ::) ), but consistent between days--so her a.m. A time might always be 1.75 - 2 hours, her midday 2 - 2.5 hours, etc. Of course you watch her and not just the clock, but try to stay consistent, not putting her down *too early* OR too late. Good naps depend on appropriate A times, so when you figure those out the routine will get a whole lot easier.

As BW moms we're always on a keen watchout for overtiredness, but if you interpret everyday fussiness as a sleep cue and put her down too early, she won't be tired enough to take a long nap and get up too soon, leading to more tiredness later in the day, and the cycle continues.

I think (as you probably know) that the night feeds are an issue. If she's not eating much when she wakes in the a.m., she may be hungry before naptime is up, causing or at least contributing to the short naps. I will see what other mods say about this...everyone handles it differently. Most would agree that nights feeding every 3 hours at 6 months is excessive. *Of course, this and all of the following advice is assuming that she's waking from habit and not hunger*. Is she on solids?

Early on dd started sleeping bedtime to midnight without feeds, so we generally don't feed until 1 a.m. or so. No df, it didn't work for us either. If she wakes before then--she often did and does--we resettled without feeding. We've been very, very consistent with that, and now  when she wakes before then she doesn't expect to be fed and resettles herself. I think that's key too--establishing a time of night when she doesn't expect to be fed even if she does wake, since you may still have wakings and your goal is to get her to go back to sleep peacefully and without you. Our dd is a very light sleeper and wakes a lot (now thankfully mostly resettles independently) and can be pretty demanding, so I knew early on that if I fed at every waking we would have a nightmare on our hands.

For us it took time and a LOT of work and robotic consistency resettling at 10 p.m.,. 11 p.m., etc. without feeding. Many nights I wanted to give in a just feed, but when I did, it made NO difference in feeding patterns for the rest of the night. She still woke and wanted to eat in a couple of hours, so I just said enough. Now, some nights she eats at one a.m., some nights not till 2 or 3, but most nights that's her only feed and she sleeps till 6:30 or so.

If you choose a time during the night when you will strive not to feed, I suggest the hours at the front end of the night, so that when she wakes in the wee hours you can feed, and hopefully she'll settle into feeding once per night in the early a.m.

OK, I gave you lots of info. Hopefully some other mods will come in and offer insight.
Malia



Offline Maia&Lia

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Re: Where to begin?!?
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2007, 21:44:26 pm »
Hi Malia,
Thanks for the reply, again.
Since this is my 2nd time around doing BW stuff, you'd think it would be a lot easier!  ::)

I'd be happy to email you my spread sheet. What email address should I use? Can I attach it in a private message? Hmm...just thought about something. Maybe I can attach it on one of these posts. I'll try after writing this message & see.

So, today is pretty much the same as yesterday. She woke at 10 pm, 2 am and again at 5 am. I nursed her at each wake up. I decided not to do anything drastic until I had a good plan worked out in my head & with my husband. Anyway, I did limit her sucking time at the 10 pm feed, but let her nurse for as long as she wanted for the 2 am. I'm hopeful that by feeding less and less at the 10 pm feed, she'll stop waking for it. If that doesn't happen, I'll do pu/pd or something along those lines. She settled quickly after both the 10 pm and 2 am nursings, but 5 am was another story. I gave her a lovey around 5:15 and after a bit of jabbering, she got quiet. I still don't know if she actually fell back asleep or if she was content to suck her fingers.

Since she nursed at 5 am, her "wake-up" nursing at 6:30 was a joke. But, it let me test my theory that I came up with yesterday. I put her down for her 1st nap of the day at 8:15 (just about 2 hours from her wake-up). She slept for 45 minutes.

Her next feed should have been around 10:30 (on a 4 hr EASY), so I nursed her at 10:30. This was also almost 2 hours after she had woken up from her 1st nap...and therefore time for her 2nd nap. So, I nursed her, put her into her blanket, read her a story & put her down awake (10:45). She slept for 2 hours, waking at 12:45.

By 2:15 she was starting to fuss again...just in time for her next feed and another nap. I nursed her, put her into her blanket, read her a story & put her down awake (2:30). I will now wait to see how long she sleeps. If she sleeps for 2 hours, I'm going to assume that it was because of me nursing her prior to going down for the nap. If it is 45 minutes, I'm back to the drawing board.

I'll let you know what happens.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 21:48:26 pm by Maia&Lia »
Alessia
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Offline Maia&Lia

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Re: Where to begin?!?
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2007, 21:53:00 pm »
FYI, I tried to attach the file but you cannot attach a xls file. :)
Alessia
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Offline nursekat

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Re: Where to begin?!?
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2007, 01:16:14 am »
Hi Alessia, I just scanned a lot of your posts but it brought back some awful memories!  My dd was sick when she was Lia's age, and she ended up on a feeding routine where she ONLY ate at night, every 2hrs!  I have a feeling once you get the night feeds down to minimal you might have better luck with getting your days in line.  Having that first feed start the day was critical for us - it made things fall into place once i had her eating at her wake time (we had the same thing - she wouldn't eat when she woke and then wasn't hungry until the middle of her naptime, so do I feed before, during or after?)

How did we drop the night feeds?  One night of horrendous cold-turkey-ness with one feed maybe around 1 or 2am.  She was starving the next day and ate great, then only woke for that one feed there on out.  I gradually weaned that one feed by giving her bottles (not sure if this is possible for you if you are bfing) and gradually watered them down.  I think there is a link in the nightwakings FAQ about doing the watered down bottle routine.

HTH!


Offline malialeanne

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Re: Where to begin?!?
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2007, 02:43:10 am »
Alessia,

I think Kathleen's right, once you wean down the night feeds she'll be hungry enough to take good feeds, especially that first a.m. feed. This will allow her to take longer naps (if hunger is causing her to wake) and your EASY will fall into place. It's just a matter of breaking the nightfeeding pattern. I bf also so I know that it's tough. In addition to reducing the minutes for the 10 p.m. feed, do you think you could push back the 2 a.m. feed by at least a half-hour (rocking, patting or whatever it takes) to see if she'll go a bit later on the 5 a.m. feed, eventually pushing it later and later? Another thing you could do is offer only one breast at 5 a.m. and offer the other when she wakes at 6:30--some babies won't accept that, but it works for some. 
Malia



Offline malialeanne

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Re: Where to begin?!?
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2007, 16:19:15 pm »
Alessia, how's it going?
Malia



Offline Maia&Lia

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Re: Where to begin?!?
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2007, 03:09:21 am »
Hey Malia,
Sorry it has taken me so long to respond. I've been working on charting everything & trying to correct night wakings before I look at daytime sleep. Things are still pretty chaotic at this point. I'll post again once things are a little more predictable.

However, thank you again for checking in on me & helping me out.
Alessia
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