11.5 Week Old back to waking twice per night

[shanlbc]

I want to start by saying that BW and these boards have saved my life and I want to thank everyone who offers help and support here.  You are all wonderful.   

I know this sounds like lots of other topics but I don't want it to get lost.

My 11.5 week old DS is waking twice per night.  I know the first is hunger because he wakes at a different time every morning, usually 2:00-3:30am.  He then wakes at 5:30 every morning--I know that one is not hunger because it's always the same time.  I really need him to sleep until 7am since I work at home and need him on a regular routine.  I know I can hold him out with a paci for a little while but I don't think for an hour and a half.  Bad idea, I know, but I have been giving him a 2 oz bottle at 530 to hold him off until 7.  He still takes a full feeding at 7.  If he could make the 10-4 stretch then I think he would stay asleep til 7am.

We tried to cluster feed but it was always a battle because he wasn't really that hungry in the evenings.  I was thinking of adding an ounce to some of his bottles today to see if that helps.  I noticed the past few days that he has been leaving an ounce in a couple of bottles per day, but draining the other two.  He takes anywhere from 4-5oz per bottle, usually 5.  Last week he lasted from the dream feed until 4am two different nights but now he is back to his old routine.

Our routine:
3 hr EASY; 7,10,1,4,7--730 bath; 8pm bed--10pm dream feed.  We are bottle feeding.  His naps are good.  Usually two 1.5 hr naps, some days three, and a catnap around 530 that I sometimes have to wake him up from.

We had been BF but he was not gaining weight (5th %ile at 2 mos after being born in the 75th %ile) so we started supplementing.  After that he didn't want to BF anymore.  Which is OK because he gained 2 lbs in 12 days and is a much happier baby.  We started supplenting 3 weeks ago.

Should the dream feed be at 1030 instead?  Should I try clusterfeeding again?

Thanks to everyone for your help.

[shoemom]

My 12 week old DS is having similar problems as yours. I've tried playing with the DF time (pushing it back a bit further-10:30 instead of 10:00) and he always wakes within 4 hours (definately hungry, and downs a 6 oz bottle). But for a few days he also kept waking at 5:00 or 5:30 and when I thought it was hunger, he would only snack. I know some would suggest W2S but it's a little daunting to try especially if you have a hard time getting him back to sleep. Also some say that it may be his natural biorhythm waking him (he may just be an early bird!). I fought with my LO for those few nights (popping his paci back in to get more sleep, every half hour till 7:00 breakfast ) and then I noticed the other day that he was eating a full 6 oz bottle at practically every meal (he usually eats anywhere from 3-5 oz). I suspect he's gone through a growth spurt and the last 2 nights we've gone back to just one night waking to feed between 3-3:30 am The cluster feeding didn't work for us either, but I'm sure if you add an ounce to every bottle he'll probably take it, and maybe he's just going through a growth spurt as well.

Hopefully someone more experienced will reply as well; I'm a first time mom and would like some other advice too seeing that we're going through similar issues!

Good luck and I'll check back soon

Jessica

[Colin Macs Mom]

I would try the 10:30 DF and see if that helps.

[shanlbc]

I will try tonight.  We had friends over last night and poor DS woke up at 9:15 after an 8pm bedtime unable to settle.  So I had to give him his DF at 9:15 so he could go back to sleep.  He woke at 1:15 (the usual 4 hrs) then again at 530, as usual.  I was too tired to try to hold him out so DH gave him a 2 oz bottle.

Jessica--I see you have a refluxer.  Is your LO on Prevacid by any chance?

[shanlbc]

That makes sense.  I had a cheap black out shade on the window and it fell down (for the third time) a few days ago.  I have been wondering if the light filtering in (even though it is very little) might be waking him.

[Colin Macs Mom]

Jessica--I see you have a refluxer.  Is your LO on Prevacid by any chance?

Nope, Zantac. He's weaned now though and eats all sorts of stuff I never thought he would 

[shoemom]

Just for info, this waking at 5-5:30 dealie many if not most babies do it.  That last few hours of of sleep is very light and they are easily woken.  This is especially true when they are younger and are still taking night feeds.

In regards to this comment Stacy, what would one do then? My LO is going back to this 5:00 am waking habit, and he's not really hungry, but the pacifier isn't working either. If I give him a couple ounces he'll go back to sleep, but then at 7:00 or 7:30 he only takes  3 ounces (usually eats 5-6)! The other issue is that my DH works nightshift and gets home around 4:30 am- I wonder if while my DS is in light sleep, he hears my DH and wakes (last night he wouldn't sleep until my DH went in to see him!)

Another issue lately; my DS is waking before his DF (usually goes back down no problem), but he is now waking earlier and earlier to eat (1:00 am instead of 3:00) He used to go 4 hours at night, now he wants to eat every 2.5 to 3 hours! I'm going a little batty with the lack of sleep, and it's hard doing it alone! Any suggestions???!!!

Thanks,
Jessica

[shanlbc]

You are describing my LO to a tee! He was waking at 4am, then 3am, then 2am, and the last two nights at 1am!  Here is what happened last night:

6:45pm feed
8pm bedtime
10:00pm DF (I want to stretch the DF to 1030/1100 but I am afraid he will wake before so I want to do it gradually)
1:10am wake/feed
5:10am wake, pacifier til 5:40am
5:40am 2oz feed; put him down awake but resettled himself until 7am
7:20am full feed (4.5-5oz)

I have been trying to give him more formula during the day but it does not seem to be having an effect on night sleep.

I have read in BWSAYP one way to break habitual waking is to go in before the usual time and wake them yourself.  I was thinking of going in at 4/430 but I don't think he would go back to sleep w/o a feed.  If I give him a full feed at 400 will I be starting a new habit?  I understand that he still needs a night feed at this age--I just want to get it from two feeds to one feed.

Thanks for your help!

[EllenS]

My lo started this around 12 weeks (along with a host of other situations).  Now she is 17 weeks and has sorted herself out.

This too shall pass.

[shoemom]

Wow!!! I really feel for you Shanlbc Just when you thought the 5:00 am wake was hell, now you've got an earlier and earlier first feed like me! Tonight I'm just going to try our regular routine (feed 7pm, bath, bed 7:30, and DF around 10:30) and see if he starts to wake again b4 the DF. If he does I'll try to get him back to sleep and skip the DF (though the last time I did that he was up at 12:30-a month ago).

Stacy, thanks for all the helpful advice I was thinking my LO was going through a growth spurt, and I may try to cluster feed again. It didn't work for us b4, but that was quite a while ago and I'm desperate to try anything! (but I know to just try 1 change at a time for a week and see how it goes!)

I hope that your night goes better tonight Shanlbc. If not, maybe we'll just have to stick it out for a little while still until our LO's mature!!!

[shanlbc]

Shoemom--Thanks for the support! I guess we're in it for the long haul so we'll just have to stick it out!  I am not complaining--I know a lot of moms have a lot worse problems than this.

Stacy--thanks for the advice.  My LO is not waking before the DF so I will keep it for now.  If I could just get 6 hours out of him (he's done it before) after the DF then I could give him a full feed at 4am and he would hopefully not wake at 5 again.  I know countless moms have hoped and prayed for the same thing--it just sounds so simple!  Ha Ha.


One thing I have noticed about him in the past--his first night time stretch is the longer one.  It varies from 4-6 hours (or at least it used too!).  But the second stretch would always be only 3 hours or so.  Is that typical?  If I skip the DF and get 6 hours out of him, that would be 1am...would he be more likely to sleep another 6 since I hadn't interrupted his sleep pattern?

First I think I am going to try even harder to up his ounces during the day.  Next I am going to try to delay the dream feed by half an hour.  If that doesn't provide some results I am going to consider dropping the dream feed.  The worst case scenario is he wakes up for the dream feed! 

Thanks again for the advice--and I'll look forward to hearing how your night goes too, Shoemom!

[shoemom]

Well this is how last night went; I cluster fed my DS to make sure he was getting enough in him (he is a huge boy and is over 16 lbs!!) and also did the DF. So he ate at 6pm (6oz), had his bath, tried to get him to catnap from 7pm to 7:45 (but he just babbled the whole time), then ate at 8pm (5 oz), went to bed at 8pm (with no problems and without his soother, he doesn't usually take it any more anyway!), and then DF at 10:30 (4oz). This time he didn't wake before the DF or during it.

Needless to say, he was awake and hungry 3 hours after the DF, so I fed him 6oz at 1:30. Up again at 4:40 (another 3 hours later!) and ate 4oz. Both times he was really hungry and wouldn't take his soother when I offered it. Well, then at 7:00am he was up again (I thought maybe he'd sleep in a little bit, but of course not!) and would only eat 2oz, and then proceeded to spit up half of it

My question is: should I continue with the cluster feed and Df for a few more nights? I know he's taken in enough formula (41 ozs yesterday!) and used to take in between 35-38 ozs. Something else that may be affecting his night sleep is his napping. We've been trying to extend his naps as most times he wakes around 45 min. The odd time he can sleep thru on his own, and I have tried wake 2 sleep (with success yesterday, but not today). I know good daysleep leads to good night sleep, so maybe that's contributing to our problems. Unfortunately our routine is now thrown off today, and I ended up feeding him early (9:30 am instead of 10, because he was hungry after spitting up breakfast and waking early from nap!!!)

Well, I'll stop rambling now, I hope your night went better than mine Shanlbc!

Jessica

[EllenS]

Short naps definitely affect night sleep.

My lo also does a longer stretch first, and shorter after.

Sounds to me like he might be getting ready to transition to a 3.5 hour EASY?  It's kindof early, but he's a big feller.  For us it was sortof like entering a tunnel of chaos for a couple of weeks, and she came out the other side with a 3.5 hour EASY.

[shanlbc]

Shoemom--thanks for the encouragement!  We had a similar night but we didn't cluster.  I practically forced him to take 6oz at every bottle yesterday and the end result was that he pretty much refused the DF, taking only 2.5 oz and crying the whole time.  He woke back up at 12:30am, but I popped his paci back in and he went back to sleep until 1:15am.  Then I fed him about 4.5oz.  Of course he woke at 5:00am.  I gave him 2.5 oz and he slept until 6:45am.  Then he would only take 3.5oz at 7am.  I went out at 9:30pm last night to buy a new room darkening shade and it keeps falling off the wall!!  So frustrating........

His naps had been better until this week.  The first morning nap was ALWAYS 1.5 hrs with no wake up, then the later naps were 45min but I am always able to get him back to sleep.  Lately they have all been 45 min and he is getting harder to get back to sleep.  Hmmm....

EllenS--my DS is not so big, he is only about 12.5lbs, but I have been thinking that he might be ready for a 3.5hr EASY.  Do you think the biggest indicator of readiness is his eating habits or his ability to stay awake?  That is my biggest worry--he is so tired after 1hr 15min A time that he falls asleep on the changing table!

Also, I start back to work tomorrow and I want to make sure my nanny (who is my wonderful, grandmotherly, ex-MIL) can handle the "chaos" as you put it.  Any suggestions!

Thank you so much to everyone for their input!!!

[shanlbc]

Stacy--thanks so much for the further advice.  I finally got the shade up tonight with drywall screws.   I am the handyman at our house!  We'll see what happens at 5am.

We don't use a CD--he had been congested from his reflux so we started using a vaporizer and now we're hooked.  I think I already need a new filter from running it so much for the noise.  We have a teenager in the house so it helps drown out her and her friends and her music.

One thing I did differently today--I stopped feeding at 7pm as soon as he started to lose interest--about 4oz--instead of prodding him to take more.  I am hoping that will make him hungrier for the DF.  He took less today as a whole than he did yesterday so I am hoping for a full DF tonight.  I think that is why he woke at 1230am last night.

As far as a 3.5 hr EASY--that's what I was afraid of--I definitely don't think his A times are ready for the time it would take.  When we are out and about he can go longer but at home he makes it abundantly clear when he is ready to go down for a nap.

BTW--what would A times be for a 3.5hr EASY?  1hr 45min?

Shoemom--be sure to let me know how tonight goes!

[shoemom]

Last night was much better! After 2 short morning naps, Adam slept for 2 hours for his afternoon nap (tried W2S again and it worked). We went to my parents after that, and being such a social and alert boy, Adam wouldn't sleep until the car ride home (20 min.) He ate last at 7pm and I had planned on not doing the dreamfeed, but he woke up crying and hungry at 10:45, and ate 5 oz. Woke again at 2:15 (offered him 4 oz, and he took 3). He didn't wake until 6:45 (heard a peep from him at 5:30 but put himself back to sleep ) He also didn't seem as hungry yesterday, and took in 36 oz versus 41 (I know it's alot, but we weighed him at my parents and he's a whopping 17 lbs!)

I'm wondering now if waking him for the DF (or him waking when hungry) is a better plan for him. Has anyone heard of doing it that way? I tried waking him once before, and he then slept till 3:45am (but that was also 2 weeks ago and he wasn't in a growth spurt).

Shanlbc-how did your night go? Did the black out shades help? We also use black out drapes and a fan for white noise (our vapourizer died from overuse!)

Stacy-the conair sound machine looks like an excellent investment! Perfect for bringing on vacation and to the grandparents

[shanlbc]

Shoemom--2hr nap!  I am envious!  And 17lbs!  My 12.5 pounder is a squirt next to your guy!!!

Well last night was better...he did not take a full feed at 645pm so he woke at 923 before the DF.  But he took 4.5oz and went right back to sleep.  He woke again at 145 then again at 6am instead of 5am.  I am not sure if it was the shades or just the later middle of the night feed.  I should've just kept him up but my new nanny wasn't coming until 8am and I wanted her to see how I put him down for naps so I wanted him to be able to stay awake until she got to the house.  Well, I guess I thought he would sleep until 7am if I fed him a little.  Didn't work, he wouldn't go back to sleep and would only take 3 oz at 7am.  Our whole day has been a series of 45min naps and overtiredness and early feeds.  And I had been bragging to the new nanny about how easy he is!  Oh, well, I can't blame him for me trying to jack around with the routine.  But even when he was fussy he was so cute and she had him laughing out loud within 5 min.  It makes me feel a lot better about going back to work.

We have nature sounds on our clock radio but they are a little irritating.  I may try them again so I will still have some life in the vaporizer this winter when I really need it!

Tonight's plan--get him to take a full feed at 7pm and a full DF.  He hasn't done both on the same night in a while.

Shoemom--are you asking about actually waking him and turning the lights on at the DF instead of trying to keep him asleep?  I saw someone post on another thread that some other book recommended that...I am not sure if my LO would go back to sleep.  Which is a scary thought!

[shoemom]

Hi Shanlbc, I can't believe you're going back to work already! I live in Ontario and we get a full year off with our LO I hope everything goes well with your LO and your nanny; it sounds like they get along real well already!! At least last night was better for you too (a bit more sleep for the 2 of you!).

Yes, I was considering waking him for the DF. I wanted to skip it all together last night (on the advice of Stacy) but he woke anyway. I don't turn up the lights though; whenever I feed him in the night I turn the bathroom light on so just a little light comes in his room (cause for sure he wouldn't go back to sleep-playtime!) and I don't talk too much or make too much eye contact (again, because he's so spirited he'd be in giggles and all riled up!). Tonight I'll let him wake me up again (which I'm sure will be around 10 or 11pm). He napped very well today (2 long naps in the morning with a little help from mommy to get him past the 45 min. mark!) but isn't eating much at all. Do you recall where this thread was about waking for the DF? I'd like to see what they have to say about it.

Well, gotta go; thanks a bunch for the support and encouragement!!!

[shanlbc]

Hi Shoemom.  I can't remember where I saw the "turning the lights on" thing but I am still looking.  There was this in the March/April 2007 thread, though.

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=69789.msg888418#msg888418

If it doesn't take you right to the correct post, look at the last couple of pages and there is a really long post that someone copied about early waking.   It's really interesting!

I AM SO ENVIOUS that you get 12 mos maternity leave!!!!!  How does that work?  Does your employer have to give you the same job back?  While I was pregnant I never thought about not wanting to go back to work but now I am really worried about missing DS.  I am very, very fortunate, though...my nanny is my ex MIL and I love her to pieces.  She took care of my 16 year old when she was a baby and so I feel like I am lucky that she is in a place where she can take care of my DS.  My ex and I have a great relationship--he is like a brother to me and his wife is one of my best friends.  They have a four year old who was a flower girl at my wedding to my new husband Feb 2006.  My own parents are both deceased and my MIL is a much better "grandmother" than my current MIL.  She doesn't even like to hold DS.

One reason I am still working is because 16 year old girls are quite expensive!  I might not go back if it wasn't for that.  But I am not "blaming" my DD.  She is a wonderful girl and I want to give her everything I can.  Also, I work from home 2 days per week and have lots of flexibility on the other days.  I really can't complain.  But in my next life I might have to move to Canada!!

Anyhow, tonight's plan is working so far.  DS took a full feed at 645pm and went to bed at 730 which is a half hour early for him...but we had a horrible nap day and he was really tired.  He fell asleep after about 15 min of shhh (no pat, he hates it!) which is pretty good for him.

Keep me posted on your night...BTW--my name is Shannon!

[shoemom]

Hi Shannon, Tell your DD I like her name- I'm Jessica too! It's nice to have family to watch your kids when you go back to work-my mom may be able to watch my DS, but not full time as her health isn't the greatest and my mil still works (and her health isn't the greatest either ) Here in Canada they pay unemployment for 12 months for maternity/paternity leave. It's not very much money, but my work (union) tops up my first 6 months off to 83% of my pay. So it's a pretty good deal, and yes I have my job when I go back!

Well, I think someone possessed my DS last night in a very good way He had dinner at 6:45, to bed by 7:30, and then didn't wake at all until 3:00 am!!! A full 8 hour stretch-that's a first! I was just going to feed him whenever he woke (so I wasn't going to wake him for the DF) and around 10pm I heard a little peep but that's it. Then some rustling around midnight, but didn't wake! He took 6oz at 3am, and then another 4 oz at 7am when he woke! Finally a breakthrough, but I shouldn't jinx myself. I know he had a couple good naps, but I honestly think skipping the DF is what helped (quite often he's gassy or spits up after eating and I'm sure that's what wakes him).

Shannon, I know it's hard to extend your Joshua's naps (it is for us too); have you tried Wake to sleep? It's not working all the time for us, but I figure he's gonna wake anyway, so I might as well try it. I go in after he makes his first stirring sounds and touch him lightly on his cheek. He stirs again, and then sometimes goes back to sleep. My guy also hates patting, and lately I don't even shhh. I find he's best if I do our winddown routine (quiet play for 15 min, they into his room with lights dimmed, quiet music on, swaddle and hold for a bit), and then I just put him down and leave. For the first couple weeks I would stay crouched over his crib, holding his legs down (he thrashes them up and down!) and covering his eyes (even with blackout drapes he can still see me) to help him sleep. But now I have a major sore back, and he seems to sleep better with less intervention. Is your LO spirited as well? Maybe this would work too? (who knows, you've gotta try every trick in the book it seems!)

Thanks for the link (I'll check it out during Adam's next nap) and talk to you soon

Jessica

[shanlbc]

Our little guys sound a lot alike.  Josh seems to want less and less intervention.  Sometimes I have to sing to him to get him to initially calm down but then he really wants to find his own way to settle.

I talked to my ex-MIL/nanny about W2S and she is all for it.  She is afraid she will be bored anyway so she said she would be more than happy to sit in his room and try to keep him from waking so I hope that she will be able to do it for both of their sakes.

I had originally done w2s but he started sleeping all the way through for at least 2 naps so I stopped.  i could always get him back down for the third one too, but he has not had a full nap in about a week.  I wish I could pinpoint why.  He goes down for naps soooo easy...we have a similar wind down and he is so in tune with it that he sometimes falls asleep before I can even get him to the crib.  He takes a bit longer to settle for bed but I think it's because he has been up for a lot longer than between naps.  His daytime A limit is 1hr 15min, maybe 1.5 hrs if you really push him by taking him outside to look around or something.  But before bed he is sometimes up 1hr 45min.  I wish he could resettle as easy when he wakes up at 45 but he is so hard to get back down.  I hope w2s will work for my nanny.

Anyway, he took a full feed at 7pm so I am hoping that by pushing the DF to 1030 he will sleep until 4am and then again til 7am.  That is my dream!

So what do you think made him sleep the 8hrs?  My DS has only slept 6hrs twice so I really doubt if I didn't do the DF that he would get much past 1am.  And I really hate for his stretch to be while I am awake!  4am, that's all I'm asking for!

Let me know if he repeats tonight!

[shoemom]

Hi Shannon, last night didn't go as well but he did go almost 7 hours from dinner to his night feed. He woke at 1:45 for a feed, and then woke at 4;45,5:30,6:30, and finally 7:20 (gave him a soother every time). Must have been overtired from his crappy naps yesterday. Oh well, at least now without the dream feed I can go to bed earlier, and I'm thankful he goes back to sleep fairly easily! How has your Lo been sleeping and napping? Has your nanny started yet? That's nice that she wants to help in getting him to nap longer.

Well the weekend is here, we'll see how things go (my DH and I are going out Sat. night and my mom and dad are babysitting. He'll probably be hyper all night playing with them; lets see how long it takes to get him back on track!)

[shanlbc]

Hi Jessica (Shoemom)!  I have been so busy with going back to work that I am exhausted in the evenings and too tired to post!  But I have been looking through the night wakings topics to try to figure out why DS just won't sleep more than 4 hours at a time.  It has been such a challenge these past two weeks.  I know now that his 5am wakings were because of hunger but I just don't see why that first night feed (after DF) is getting earlier and earlier instead of later and later.  I have tried increasing his feeds during the day and he won't take more--as a matter or fact he is taking less at each feed!  He has taken less the past few days than ever and I don't know what to do.  He is also spitting up a bit more so I am wondering if it may be due to his refulx...

I keep tweaking one thing or another every night.  I have decided that I am not going to feed him if he wakes before 3am, just give him his paci and get him back to sleep.  That way he will sleep until at least 630am (in theory).  I do DF at 1030...surely he can go that long at 3mos!  I may start a new thread on this one because I can't seem to get him to eat any more during the day and I think that is why he is waking.

How is your DS doing with the 5am wake up?  I found the thread I was telling you about with turning the lights on at the dream feed...

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=93161.msg880677#msg880677

Let me know how it's going!

[shoemom]

Hi Shannon, sorry it's been so long;we had our computer out getting fixed. You must be exhausted with back to work and still alot of night wakings My little guy is still feeding in the night; a good night just once around 2ish (I dropped the DF and had that one really good night, but since then he keeps getting up earlier and earlier, so I started the DF again around 10:30). Last night was confusing though; Did DF at 10:45, then he was up 2 hours later! Nothing would send him back to sleep, he wasn't full out crying, but almost giggling/screeching like he does during the day (so annoying at 1 am!) So I gave in and fed him (by this time it was 1:30) and he took the full 6 oz!! ? Another growth spurt (he's 16 weeks next week). Anyway, I'm pretty much thinking I'll never get a full 8 hours sleep again, might as well just accept it

As for your LO not eating more in the day, could he need a higher dose of his reflux meds now that he's gained weight? I would check with his doctor (but my DS eats a TON-40 oz!- and is still waking for a night feed)

We've also started moving over to a 4 hour EASY; hopefully things will look better when we get there and his naps are more consistent!

Cheers, Jessica

[shanlbc]

Hi Jessica--as a matter of fact we went to the doctor last Thurs to talk about his feeding changes.  He had started fussing really bad at his afternoon feeds.  It looked like gas to me but the doc said he refulx is getting worse.  He is on the highest dose for right now so she suggested we split the dose to half in the morning and half in the evening instead of all in the evening.  She also wants to put him on a motility drug to empty out his stomach faster so he is not spitting up 1-2 hrs after hs feeds.  She said that could make him irritable so I told her we would need to wait...I am going on a business trip next Tues-Thurs.  My nanny is off because she is taking care of her granddaughter that week so DH will have DS all alone for 3 days!!!!!  We don't need any irritability issues with that coming up.

DS is a great baby so I really hate to mess that up.  The only time he is fussy is for two feeds a day--and not after the feed is over.  Hopefully splitting the dose will work well enough.

He woke up an hour early this morning so I thought I might experiment with a 3.5 hr EASY to see if that helps him eat more.  I kept him up 1hr 45min (he was mad!) and he slept 1hr 15min.  I rocked him back to sleep and he is still sleeping.  I need to go wake him up now...we'll see how it goes!