wake to sleep? advice **please**

[babykylesmum]

hiya,

kyle gets up every morning at 4:20 and also 5:20.

at 4:20 he settles himself and goes back to sleep but then gets up at 5:20 and won't settle without the paci. for him, we've determined it's definitely a comfort item and not a prop b/c he keeps it in his mouth for hours and really needs it to fall asleep. so, while it's the 5:20 wake up that is the problem, if we did w2s an hour before, he'd already be up for that, so do we do it at 3:30 am? another time? 

sleep deprived and confused here, tia, kim

ps he feeds at 11pm and 7 am and he's hardly hungry even at 7.

[momofclaire]

Could you tell me how old that little cutie is?  If he really needs it to fall asleep, are you sure it's not become a prop? 
Can you post his sch?  Wakings in the morning and close together usually mean hunger or overtired.
Is he bf or ff?

[babykylesmum]

hiya,

kyle's nearly 6 months (on june 9).

we did the prop test to see if that was the problem before, and we did take it away for a while, but he seems to sleep the same with or without it, its just that he falls asleep a lot faster and stays asleep longer with it. he also will keep it in his mouth for a whole two hour nap and wake up with it in place, and i thought that suggested that it was a comfort item...

two weeks ago our routine looked like this:
6:30/7 am wake
7/7:30 feed - milk
8/8:30/9:00 nap in cot for 1.5-2 hours (still working on nailing this timing down)
wake/play
11:30 feed - milk
12:30 solids
nap in cot 1.5 hours (he's always ready to sleep two hours after he last got up so this gets adjusted based on his morning nap a lot)
wake/play
3:30 feed - milk
4:30 solids
6:00 catnap in the swing - 45 minutes
7:00 bath, bottle, bed, usually asleep between 7:45 and 8 pm
10:30 - 11:00pm feed - milk
6:30 - 7am do it all again!!

......BUT we wanted to try to get rid of the 5 am morning call and someone suggested an earlier bedtime, so the routine is still the same except that kyle's bath, bottle thing begins now at 6 pm, the catnap is gone and he's down by 6:30 pm.

kyle takes breastmilk during the day and formula at bedtime and 11pm.

gosh, hope this helps and isn't TMI!
best, kim

[MDHmommy]

Hey Kim,
I just want to make sure I understand...he's sleeping from 6:30 pm until 4:20 am then one wake then back to sleep until 5:20? So that's 10 hours of uninterrupted night time sleep plus an hour in the morning makes 11, plus 3.45 to 4.45 hours of daytime sleep. Is that correct?
Kate

[babykylesmum]

wow kate, - i see that definitely sounds like a lot! with the new 6:30 bedtime, he only does two daytime naps, so maximum naptime is about 3/3.5 hours now. and he gets up briefly for an 11pm feed, but other than that i think you have it right.

everyone keeps telling me that at his age they should be going 12 hours at night (i.e. 7 pm to 7 am with a dreamfeed) plus naps - am i doing it wrong? i can't imagine him sleeping less in the day though...his cues are really obvious and he naps with no trouble....hmmmm....more confusion....

kim

[momofclaire]

I think 3-3.5 during the day and 11-12 overnight sounds good. 

[MDHmommy]

No, I don't think you're doing it wrong, I just wanted to see what kind of an uninterrupted stretch he was doing. Sorry, i just want to make sure I understand, that 11 wake for a feed is a dreamfeed?

If it is, it might be a bit late. I know that Tracy suggests making sure your DF is not later than 10/10:30 because it can affect day time feeds. Possible to scoot that DF (if that's what it is...) back to 10:30 for a couple of nights, see what happens?

[babykylesmum]

hiya,

we tried the dreamfeed originally at 10:30 but it didn't seem to make any difference. now we do it at about 10:45, but we could try it again if nothing else works...

last need, we did w2s at 3:45 but i think i messed it up big time b/c kyle was completely awake. he didn't settle until 5:15 (!) after lots of talking and singing but thankfully no crying or calling for us. he slept until 7:30, but no surprise given that he was up half the night!

i'll try again tonight with a much gentler approach. should i do it closer to the usual 4:20 wake-up or further away from it this time? also, do i do it again later just before the 5:20 wake-up or just once for the night?

tia, kim

[MDHmommy]

Yikes. That's not good. You just want to give him a little nudge, definately don't wake him all the way - or you'll be up half the night. Guess you could have used that advise at about 3:15 last night, eh? LOL...Sorry that happened!

If the wake up is at 4:20 then you'll want to do it 30 minutes before that - so 3:50.

When I've done it in the past, you give a little nudge - like just enough to get a bit of movement and maybe a sigh...then step back, let him fall back asleep all the way and sneak out. Try it for 3 nights in a row ... if there's still a wake at 4:20 keep at it for maybe 2 more nights.

Good luck! Keep us posted!

[lilsweetie]

how exactly do you do "wake to sleep"..
i've looked all over this site but i can't find the info. i also couldn't find it in the book... please help!

[momofclaire]

Hi lilsweetie, here is a link to w2s.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64107.0

If you need more info, let me know what books you have and I can give you page numbers.

[lilsweetie]

thank you SO MUCH!!!(sorry for hijacking the thread!) I will try that for his naps. He always wakes up at about 38 minutes into his naps and he just turned 3 months.

[babykylesmum]

thanks guys,

lilsweetie - kyle used to be a 45 minute napper come heck or high water, pat/shhhh, he wouldn't go past that mark UNTIL something happened at about 4 months. now, he still sleeps in 45 minute intervals but his naps are usually 1.5 hours, sometimes 2 hr 15 min max. anyway, just wanted to throw you a line of hope, b/c i remember how desperate i was for one too. there's a thread for short nappers that might help too: https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=69789.0;topicseen

MDHMommy and momofclaire - that is just the advice i needed, thanks! now i have more questions though:

1) i've read that you should vary the wake time from night to night to avoid creating another habitual wake. if i do this, should i move to an earlier or later wake?

2) should i do separate w2s for the 4:20 and 5:20 wake, or just one wake for the group?

3) last night kyle woke at 2:20 ( - where did THAT come from !?!?) and then 4:00. we think it might be red herring b/c his room was really warm. can w2s cause varied wake up times as you go through the process? he did not wake at 5:20, was up for the day at 6:30.

4) what's the deal with them getting up at points in the night and going "la la la la la chatter chatter chatter mmmmm mmmmm mmmmmm" until they fall back asleep? is this ok? do i just need better earplugs or is this a problem with his sleep? was my son a cricket in a past life?

tia AGAIN, i'm lost without y'all, kim

[MDHmommy]

Hi there....

I've always had the best luck with working on one thing at a time. So like with my DS I'd do W2S for the first wake of the night for 2 nights, then I'd tackle the 2nd (and in our case, sometimes the 3rd or 4th!) after a couple of nights. What I found with W2S was that it would work at first, but then the wakes would move or come back. *BUT* we had a lot of other issues going on. I think of it as a kind of trouble shooting technique, if it works, then it was a habitual wake, if it doesn't then you've got some more investigating to do!

As far as varying the wake time - I've not read that. Was that in BWSAYP? Or something you read on the boards? Just curious. I would think that it would be counterproductive to vary the time because then it might not help the original problem? But that's just my gut talking. I'm not sure! Momofclaire, have you heard this?

A warm room could def be the culprit for the strange wake times. While you're working on his sleep you might want to turn on the AC if you have it, just to eliminate as many variables as possible.

Chatter during the night is totally fine, and very normal. The fact that he's getting himself back to sleep on his own is fab!!! Not sure how house is set up - but if you can close his door and keep yours open and still hear him if he's really crying for you - that might be a good thing!

[babykylesmum]

thanks so much! i honestly can't remember where i saw the thing about moving the wake times around b/c i googled "scheduled awakening" (another term for this that i think i saw in "what to expect the first year") and read a ton of stuff. info overload = brain freeze.

we don't have AC (live in england where it hardly ever gets hot, at least for me, an american) so we might face a temp thing again, but at least i can bear this in mind. will try again tonight and keep you posted.

best, kim

[momofclaire]

I have not heard of varying the wake time. Kate has given you wonderful advice as she speaks from (unfortunatly) a lot of experience. 

[babykylesmum]

okey doke, this is what happened last night:

all ready to do the 3:50 w2s, kyle stirred at about 3, brief la la and then back to sleep and then didn't wake until 6 - i think that's pretty good, do you? he's only 6 months old and so going from 7pm (out and snoring) to 6 am without a full-on wake up, plus no 5:20 morning call which was the usual seems like a success to me! i didn't see any point in waking him at 3:50 when he wasn't doing the 4:20 thing anymore either. do you think i did this right?

thank you soooo much, kim

[momofclaire]

Sounds like you had a good night!  I would keep watching things over the next few nights just so you can have an idea what is going on in case you need to step in again.
Keep us posted. 
He snores?  How cute is that? 

[MDHmommy]

Girl, as long as that child sleeps (and you sleep too!) you're doing it RIGHT. Good for you! Hooray!

Keep us posted if you need any more help!

[babykylesmum]

hey guys,

back from a week's holiday during which everything got completely FUBARed. i'm trying to claw back some ground now, working on the naps which today are better than yesterday so far, in terms of him going back to going down without a total fit.

nights are so tricky b/c the temp is so variable so i can't tell if he's waking out of habit or b/c he's hot or cold. last night he was up for ages from 3-ish having a big play in the cot but i think it was a post-poo party, and he did settle himself after that one. then he woke at 5-ish and i tried not to go to him but he was really upset so i gave him the dummy, and an extra blanket and he slept till 7. tonight, maybe i should just see what happens (assuming daytime sleep goes ok) and then go from there. i honestly have no idea what he'll do next. all week long while we were away he did his 4:20 and 5:20 thing - total reversion. but it's so confused now maybe i need a night to wait and see?

what do you think? all the best, kim

[MDHmommy]

Keep plugging away at getting back on a solid routine after your vacation. As far as the temperature in your house...can you dress him in light layers somehow to easily add/remove so as to quickly end the discomfort of being too hot/cold? What about a window unit A/C? (Sorry, as a typical American living in the Mid-Atlantic states, I'm an A/C addict!!)