Author Topic: conflicting information  (Read 5022 times)

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Offline whereissusan

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conflicting information
« on: June 07, 2007, 18:33:58 pm »
 
conflicting info regarding the 45 minute nap.  i have read that
1)  some babies only take 45 minute naps and that it's ok
2)  45 minutes is not restorative and you need to extend the naps
3)  nap extention BW style i have seen two versions...which one is correct?
 
at the 30 minute mark go in and nudge baby to get baby into new cycle or when baby stirs at the 45 minute mark go in and soothe to sleep by pat/shhhh?

also, for what age range does this generally work and how long does it take to be effective?  i have a four month old that only takes 45 mintue naps....

Offline whereissusan

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Re: conflicting information
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2007, 18:36:32 pm »
 p.s.  we never used a binky until two nights ago after a forty minute cry/protest during pat/shhh and then today's nap after 20 minutes of pat/shh to no avail.  is it wrong to give the paci as she seems to take it now when she rejected it over the past four months?  i am afraid of starting a bad habit but i am also wanting her to sleep and to do it peacefully....

Offline ladybug74

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Re: conflicting information
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2007, 18:51:56 pm »
I am very interested in the answers you'll get to this since I am dealing with the same issue with a 12 week old. I too have found pat/shh not to work for him, but when I put him in his swing after a 45 minute nap in his crib, he'll fall right back asleep. This indicates to me that he obviously was not done sleeping.......
As far as the paci; I know the BW warns against this becoming a prop, but with my first son (when I was still ignorant about BW) we gave him a paci which helped his sleep tremendously. After about 1 year we rescricted his use to just naps and nighttime and after a couple of months only at nighttime. This lasted until he was 2 at which point I actually lost the darned thing and I explained to him that I couldn't find it and he went to sleep without it and has never asked for it again.
Of course a year later, when moving his bed, he found it behind his bed and looked at it knowing that this thing once held great value for him, but not sure what to do with it now  ;)
Maybe we just got lucky, I just wish my lo would take a paci because then I would actually have something to settle him down with.
Good luck!!!!

Offline KathrynK

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Re: conflicting information
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2007, 19:28:08 pm »
hi there
let's try to help clear up some of your confusion!
It's much better for your lo if she can sleep for longer than 45 mins- longer naps are indeed more restorative. However most babies go through a phase of 45min naps at some point, it's very very common, as I am sure you have realised from numerous posts here!
It's really up to you whether you try to extend her naps or not. If she wakes up crying and miserable from her nap then that's an obvious cue she has not had enough sleep but can't get back off again without your help. Some babies are just stuck at 45mins no matter what you try and always wake up happy, inwhich case you might decide to just live with the short naps as long as lo doesn't get overtired.

As to extending the naps, there are 3 main techniques you can try. One involves waiting until lo wakes and then using pat/shh to get her back to sleep. The other 2 involve trying to prevent lo waking in the first place. One is called Wake 2 Sleep and is as you described- make her stir slightly before the end of the first sleep cycle, so she starts another sleep cycle and so sleeps for longer overall. The other involves sitting next to the cot and holding lo's arms & legs to stop her jolting herself awake- babies fling their limbs around loads when they come into a light sleep and often this is the cause of the wakings.
Which technique you choose is up to you- there is no right or wrong. I would say that whichever you try, stick with it for at least a week, don't chop and change as consistency is always key when sleep training. For us I had to stop dd waking at 45mins as no amount of pat/shhing was getting her back to sleep. We had some success with holding through the jolts.

hope this helps!
kathryn
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Offline whereissusan

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Re: conflicting information
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2007, 01:31:39 am »
can you explain the wake 2 sleep in detail as i don't understand it completely...you wake up your sleeping baby in hopes she will return to sleep?

also, what age range do these methods work?  anyone out there with success/failure stories and how old were the babies?

lastly, if the 45 minute nap is a developmental thing then isn't it prudent just to wait until they are six months old when they develop the skill to nap longer? 

i also wonder if 45 minute nappers are a direct result of poor sleep habits early on on my part...ie...going to her too soon right when she makes a noise, not letting her self soothe??  she wakes up with a smile most times but as the day wears on it catches up to her.  she becomes cranky faster and her eyes are red telling me she hasn't gotten enough sleep but trying to put her down is an all out fight especially the last nap of the day.

o

Offline _newmom_

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Re: conflicting information
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2007, 14:53:39 pm »
My dd refused a paci until 11 weeks, and started taking it then only when she was tired and ready to fall asleep.  I had the same concern you do about starting to give it so late, but it was my saviour in starting to help teach her independent sleep.  Prior to that we were a serious AP case of rocking/walking/jiggling to sleep, but once she took the paci, I could put her into her crib drowsy and she started to get used to falling asleep in her crib on her own.  Shortly after that she started sucking her fingers a lot more, and found her thumb, and once I knews she could get it in her mouth when she needed to, I stopped using the paci entirely (@ 3 weeks after I had started).

Re w2s, it worked twice for me by holding down during the jolts, but no more after that - I tried for about 10 days.  Pat/shhh used to just infuriate my dd, and I never persisted with it. 

What worked for me was focusing on A time (impossible to read cues apart from when it was too late), consistent nap time wind down, going in to her only if her cries were escalating (vs mantra cry which I only learned to distinguish for my dd at 3 months or talking to herself).

For my own sanity, I also stopped spending hours in her room trying to get her back to sleep.  I gave it a time of limit of trying for max 20 minutes, then up, adjust A time accordingly and back down again.  I decided on a routine, and saw it as guideline re sleep/something to strive towards, but stopped getting too stressed if my dd didn't sleep according to plan.  I took each day at a time re naps, and adjusted her schedule accordingly depending on how she napped during the day, although I kept feeding times fixed (formula fed and could go 4 hrs from 12 weeks).  I also read "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" which provides an excellent explanation of how babies evolve into their sleep habits, and my dd's routine was set up to allow for the development of her morning nap first, and then naps 2 & 3.  This meant I went to an EASYA...EASYA routine which worked much better for us.  She is doing really well now, but I just need to stay on top of her routine as her A times change, and if for some reason she has a bad nap here or there.

Having said all of this, it does seem like some los just are short nappers.  I guess an early indication of this would be if you've tried all the things Stacy mentioned, and timed her am nap to fall around 9am for a couple of weeks and she still doesn't go beyond 45 mins after 4/5 months, it's possible she's a short napper, since the morning nap is the first to be established by 4 months.

I hope some of this helps...I guess my question to you is:  has your dd showed any signs of thumb/finger sucking or other self soothing method?  I think ss is one of the key factors in getting los to sleep independently.

Best of luck to you!
anita




Offline whereissusan

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Re: conflicting information
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2007, 15:10:50 pm »

she is  a big thumb/fist sucker so i know she can soothe herself.  i just wonder about the 45 minute nap thing as she never, never takes a nap longer than that.  her awake time varied between 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours as i wait to see if she gets cranky, yawns, etc. etc.  like i said, as the day progresses she gets more tired and getting her down for a nap is harder and harder due to her overtired state.  she takes 3  - 45 minute naps a day.  sometimes i get one last catnap in at the end of the day but i am starting to toss that out the window and just put her down earlier with a little more A time before bed.

from the sounds of it she is a habitual 45 mintue napper due to who know what?  so, you all think it's worthwhile to go in an stir her before she wakes?  won't she just wake up and be done with nap time then making her nap a paltry 30 minute one?  i suppose i am a bit skeptical as i don't understand how stirring her allows her to go into another sleep cycle.  anyone care to educate me on this?

Offline whereissusan

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Re: conflicting information
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2007, 15:39:02 pm »
wasn't quite clear on finding her true awake time...you mentioned something at the end of your post that i don't quiet understand.  30/40 then down or something like that?

so put her down after hour forty five for a nap regardless of signs?  it's the later in the day info you wrote that i find more confusing....

Offline _newmom_

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Re: conflicting information
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2007, 16:28:11 pm »
If I were you, I would try get her to use the thumb/fist sucking more to ss.  I found my dd kindof "forgets" about her thumb if she gets to the stage of being over or undertired - seems like she focuses more on crying then, so for me the key is to put her down while she is tired, but not yet cranky and prone to crying - she is quite happy with her thumb then.  This may work for you too...

As for w2s, it takes a lot of committment and is quite exhausting sitting in a dark room waiting for the right time to stir your lo and then waiting long enough afterwards until you can safely leave the room.  When I did it, I also worried about just getting a 30 minute crappy nap, and sometimes if I stirred my dd too much, unfortunately, I did.  Sometimes, it didn't make a difference, and she just woke after 45 minutes.  The recommendation is that it can take up to 2 weeks of trying to get it right.

Getting A times right is so important, so as Stacy suggests, before trying w2s, I would focus on that first for the case where your lo only does 45 min naps.  You would probably need to shorted the A times as the day progresses, e.g. start with 2 hrs in the morning, 1h45mins after 1st nap, 1h30m after 2nd nap etc.   I would also give your lo a couple of more weeks to see if she starts to extend the morning nap on her own given she's at the age where she should be able to do it developmentally.  After all, waiting with w2s for a couple of weeks won't hurt, and it isn't a prerequisite for getting your lo to nap beyond 45 mins, it's just another method that may or may not work for you.
anita




Offline jcsmom

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Re: conflicting information
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2007, 16:49:29 pm »
whereisusan, I just wanted to let you know that I am experiencing the same thing. My LO is 13 weeks today and shows tired signs after 45 minutes of being up, but alas still has 45 minute naps. Today, I tried to keep him up for 1.15 to see if it helps and he took ages to go to sleep so now I don't know if he is overtired as he was awake for 1hr 45. He naps 3-5 45 minute naps per day and never wakes up happy but I just don't have the time or energy to try to extend them. Every day I just play with his A times but I still haven't figured it out because by the end of the day he is so overtired and just can't sleep so we have a baby who is up for over 2 hours at bedtime and none too happy. He won't sleep anywhere else either, no swing, sometimes in the carseat and always in the sling but that was becoming a bad habit for both of us. I feel so bad for the little guy as he always seems miserable after being up such a short time. I too worry that it was something I did. I also worry that his biorhythm is getting screwed up.

I worry one day that he needs more A time and that is why he is not napping longer and the next I worry that he is up too long and that is why he can't sleep or sleep longer. My days are consumed by this!

Offline whereissusan

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Re: conflicting information
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2007, 21:05:20 pm »


i have tried to get her down earlier but then it's a huge fight as she isn't tired or at least that is how i peceive it.  she screams when she isn't ready which is very differnant than her, ok mom, i'm tired cry. 

here is another question regarding nap extensions...if she can do it an swing is that working towards longer naps in general or is it too much of a prop?

Offline whereissusan

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Re: conflicting information
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2007, 18:36:32 pm »


so rereading this thread it sounds like me using babies cues is deceiving...why is that?  i thought that if they are rubbing eyes, cranky, yawning, staring off into space, etc ect that that was when you went "aha time to put you down".  what i am being told her is regardless of signs just put the baby down at a set interval.  is this correct?  how do you know it's right in the end?  i am hesitant as it seems that you can't make someone sleep if they are not tired...

Offline whereissusan

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Re: conflicting information
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2007, 18:39:09 pm »


also a forty minute nap could mean she is overtired?  never undertired?

Offline EllenS

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Re: conflicting information
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2007, 18:22:28 pm »
I have found that my lo has a whole second set of more subtle cues that are more reliable than the obvious ones.  If I wait till she is yawning, rubbing eyes, I have sometimes missed it.  However, during many of her awake cycles, she will slow down her playing and give a heavy sigh, and often she will start turning her head from side to side as if what she's seeing has become boring.  This is my cue to do diaper check and start the winddown/nap routine - but gives me more leeway so that (for example) if we're walking in the park, I have time to get home before she gets overtired.  Maybe your lo has some subtle early warning signs like this?
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Offline whereissusan

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Re: conflicting information
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2007, 22:37:34 pm »


i would like to hear from others about subtle signs...i am just having a hard time reading her and i hate when she gets so overtired that it takes 45 mintues to get her down for a nap like this last one.  i am amazed that babies don't want to sleep when they are tired or from my minimal experience she can sleep on the go but when it comes to a formalize sleeping arrangement (the crib) it's a fight.

another question regarding awake times...is there a link to age and awake time appropriate for that age?


will i ever figure out her tired signs, get her to nap without a fight and have her nap more than 45 minutes?