waking a lot and up early...

[dorninger]

So here is our situation:
We have a wonderful almost 7 month old- We've spent the last 2 months getting him from his free and easy way of living onto the 4 hour EASY routine, and then 2 weeks ago have started the sleep training part (PU/PD and shush/pat).  I feel like we are making some progress, but still have a long way to go as far as his sleep is concerned. 
I'll try to give you all our pertinent info and then ask my questions:
Our routine is generally
He wakes for the day between 5:30 and 6:30 am.
7:00 E (I'm breastfeeding one side per feed- but he usually only eats for 8-12 minutes...)
7-9 A
9:00 S Often he will only sleep for 40-45 minutes for this nap- sometimes he will go 1.5-2 hours.  If he wakes after 45 min we will generally try PU/PD or shush pat to get him back to sleep).
11:00 E
11-1 A (sometime during this we will give him an oz or so of solid food which he has only been doing for a week or so- pears or apples)
1:00 S (again, about 50% will be a short nap, other times will be longer)
3:00 E
3:00-5:00 A
5:00 E
5:00-7:00 A (including bedtime ritual- massage, naked play time, bath)
7:00/7:30 S
From here the night times are very very variable.  We give him two dream feeds; one around 11pm and one at around 3am- this is because he use to wake up every 45min to 1.5 hours and feed all night long (lord help me) and I really felt reluctant to make him go 8 hours after this night long feast- i hope to wean him off the 3 am feed soon though.
Other than this he has been waking every 1-3 hours (which actually is a huge improvement over where he had been, but call me greedy, I want more!).  Last night for example
7:00-9:10 S
9:10-9:35 PU/PD - full crying/screaming/screatching
9:35-11:00 S
11:00 woke up exactly at 11- feed (3.5 oz)
11:10-2:00 S
2:00-2:10 woke fussy, but himself back asleep pretty easily
2:10-2:30 S
2:30 woke fussy- feed (3 oz)
3:00-4:30 S
4:30-4:40 woke fussy
4:40-5:45 S
5:45 awake for the day
So by the way the rest of our morning went like this
5:45-7:00 A
7:00 E
7:10-8:45 A
8:45-9:20 S
9:20 SCREAMING awake, scretching
9:20-10:45 PU/PD- and shush/pat
10:45-11:15 S
Woke at 11:15 for feed.... and so on.

SO, here are my questions:
1. when he wakes early like he did this morning it's a real stretch to get him to 9 am naptime and he definitly gets tired way earlier like 7 am or so... I'm afraid if we put him down so early we will get way off our EASY 4 hour scheldue but on the other hand we are clearly making him overtired which may be why his naps are short.... what to do?
2.I feel like he wakes so much at night partly because he is hungry- but I don't know how to get him to eat more.... I cluster feed and do dream feeds, but quantity wise I don't think he eats very long... and to complicate matters I only can feed on one breast- he refuses to take the other (inverted nipple)- my lactation consulutant says that shouldn't be a problem and he is growing fine... but still I wonder..
3. There are times when he is fussy when it seems better for me to leave the room.  There are times when it seems like it is stimulating for me to be in there with him... is that okay? 
4. Is there someone we can talk in person to, even hire, to help us iron out these and other issues.  It's been just so hard.  I love my little bug but am so incredibly sleep deprived and it's putting a lot of pressure on me, my husband, us... I've put off work longer than we can afford because I'm so exhausted... I really need to get him sleeping better and am totally commited to doing this right.  But am confused about these points.  Thank you in advance for any help and insight you can give!

[Layla]

Hi there & welcome to the boards!!!

Just to answer some of your questions:

1. when he wakes early like he did this morning it's a real stretch to get him to 9 am naptime and he definitly gets tired way earlier like 7 am or so... I'm afraid if we put him down so early we will get way off our EASY 4 hour scheldue but on the other hand we are clearly making him overtired which may be why his naps are short.... what to do?

I wouldn't personally do a nap any earlier than 8.45. 9 am is the ideal and you are right, if he's down waaaay earlier then the whole day is ruined and gets messy. I think sometimes tired signs can also be bored signs. So if he's yawning at 7am, then I would do a change of scenery, etc... I would aim to be in crib at 9am.

2.I feel like he wakes so much at night partly because he is hungry- but I don't know how to get him to eat more.... I cluster feed and do dream feeds, but quantity wise I don't think he eats very long... and to complicate matters I only can feed on one breast- he refuses to take the other (inverted nipple)- my lactation consulutant says that shouldn't be a problem and he is growing fine... but still I wonder..
3. There are times when he is fussy when it seems better for me to leave the room.  There are times when it seems like it is stimulating for me to be in there with him... is that okay? 

We ALL wake up at night in between cycles. We might turn over, bang the pillow a few times (lol), look at the clock, get some water, etc... and then go back to sleep. All those awakenings you have descibes are perfectly normal to me and to be honest if he is fussy or happens to cry out or just making some noises, I would leave him alone. He might just be learning how to settle himself and you are right in saying that your presence is probably stimulating him more than helping him. To be honest, I wouldn't even go in unless he is crying (and I mean REALLY crying..... the "I NEED YOU NOW"!!! cry). He could be doing a mantra cry so again, let him be unless he really needs you!

4. Is there someone we can talk in person to, even hire, to help us iron out these and other issues.  It's been just so hard.  I love my little bug but am so incredibly sleep deprived and it's putting a lot of pressure on me, my husband, us... I've put off work longer than we can afford because I'm so exhausted... I really need to get him sleeping better and am totally commited to doing this right.  But am confused about these points.  Thank you in advance for any help and insight you can give!

I know its hard . I BF Jasmine for ALL awakenings (we're talking every 1-2hrs as well) for the 1st 4 months and it was so draining. I had a toddler next door and just didn't want her to be waking up from all that fussing, moaning, calling out... so I would feed her . You will get through this.... I am not sure if someone from this site would come over... you might be able to get help from a sleep school ... but most likely they will recommend controlled crying (which is not something I would recommend) so hang around and we will be here to support you.

I wanted to comment on the A times. At 7 months, he should be able to do close to 3hrs...... so for the morning nap, do your windown about 30mins earlier (so say 8.30) and aim for him to be in the cot (hopefully starting to fall asleep) at 9am. If he wakes at 45mins and you cannot get him down for longer, forget the nap and put him down earlier for the pm nap, say around 12.45-1pm. Say he sleep till 2.30pm, you might have to give him a catnap in the early evening (around 5pm) so that he is not awake for so long in the afternoon. If he's waking from his pm nap at say 3pm (or earlier if that nap was short), then till 7pm thats a pretty long stretch. My 1yo can only just do 4hrs before bedtime now... at 7 months, it was 3hrs. It might not be TRUE EASY but as long as he is not being fed to sleep, you can still have he 4hourly feedings but just play around with A times.

If you cannot get a catnap in, then I would do an earlier bedtime (so 6/6.30pm) instead of 7/7.30pm. Usually the earlier bedtimes help with overtiredness & nightwakings.

SO.... for the night feeds - 2 feeds is fine, imo at 7months. So the dreamfeed at 11pm & early morning feed.


Sorry for the long post
Layla

[dorninger]

Thank you Layla for your response!
Wow, does it ever feel good to be able to communicate with others about this.  Truely a god send!
We have out of town visitors for a few days, when they leave I'll respond in more lenght and continue figuring this out.  But again, thank you so so much for your support.

[dorninger]

Okay dokey, we're back...
again, all your advice was very useful and especially to let him be when he is fussy/mantra crying- I do think I was going in too quickly before.
But here we are working very hard to get him to sleep better diligently doing everything it seems we are suppose to be for many months and he is still waking 5-6 times a night.... I guess my next question is @(*$&*)(*&@#$$@#$!!HELP!!! (if that even is a question).  I still think it's often a hunger issue as he typically wakes an hour or so before our scheduled feedings (11pm and 3am) and will either cry for an hour until we feed him or if we are lucky go back to sleep but wake every 10-15 minutes until we feed him..) Having said that he usually only eats 3-4 oz's during these feeds...
The other problem time is morning- he usually wakes every half hour from 4:30 on and will usually be up entirely around 5:30-6:00...
Any ideas?
P.S.
We are grateful for the improvement we have gotten since before BW he was waking every 45-60 min throughout the night in my bed nursing every time... so clearly we have made progress... could it be a matter of just continuing to be consistent and patient?

[Layla]

Well if he wakes up and you think its hunger, then feed him and see if he'll settle faster. So at 10pm, feed him and he might do a longer stretch. If he's up any earlier than 5hrs later (for the 2nd feed), then settle without feeding.

Towards the morning there is alot more REM sleep (which is restless sleep) so if he's stirring alot, etc... let him be. I think he is waking so early because of all the nightwakings at the moment & him being overtired in general. Daysleep also has an effect on night sleep. So if he's overtired during the day from short naps then he'll have many nightwakings

[dorninger]

Okay, I'll give that a go (feeding him earlier)... So if we feed him at 10 then we do need to wait till 3am before another feed?  I wonder if we've been messing him up by doing the feeds only 3.5-4 hours apart previously (11pm and then 2:30-3:00am)
Yes, I do think being overtired may be part of the issue- sometimes his naps are good (1.5 hours- 2hours) but often they are only 45 minutes... it's hard to stop the overtired cycle though.  Any ideas on that?

[Layla]

IF he is taking a long morning nap and its affecting his pm nap, then I would cut the morning nap down to no more than 1hr15mins to start with. I believe the afternoon nap is more important in regards to nightwakings (or at least I found in our case). My girls suffered more at night if they had a short pm nap rather than a short morning nap. So, do what you can to get him to sleep longer than 45mins in the afternoon & if he has then do a catnap. We've always been able to tackle overtiredness with an earlier bedtime.

[dorninger]

So today for example:
he slept from 9-10:45am, 1:15-2:30 and then from 4:30-5:00... I put him down at 7pm but it took him 45 minutes to fall asleep.  how does this seem to you?
when you suggest an earlier bedtime are you saying even earlier than 7pm? 
thank you very much for all your help!

[Layla]

Something like what happened today is a good nap day. I suggest an earlier bedtime on a day say you have a short pm nap & you have to give a catnap say at 3.30/4pm (which then ends at 4:45), then I would do a 6.30pm bedtime.

[dorninger]

Well, it looks like we are at the end of wits here.   Last night my DH gave me the ultimatium of if this doesn't work better soon we are going to CIO... ugg.  I can't say he's totally alone on feeling this way although I'm more reluctant to go there... but I do wonder how much better this is than CIO as our DS is doing a lot of crying as it is and it's been going on for so long.
Last night went like this (and keep in mind this is after a day of good naps, see above)
7:00 put to bed
7:45 fell asleep after mild fussing on own for 45 min.
10:30 Awake DF (DF are never really dream feeds as he always is awake by the time we feed him, waiting to be fed) ate 3.5 oz
1:00 Awake- left in room byself for 45 minutes- fussyness starts to esculate. In with him from 1:45-3:00 doing PU/PD (a little bit), modified shush/pat (more just shush/ hold hand on back) and just being there
3:00 "DF" 4 oz
4:45 awake briefly
6:00 awake for day
7:00 feed- not even very hungrey (breastfeed this time hard to know how much but he only fed for a couple minutes)

SO, I don't know what we are doing wrong!  I guess technically he was only up 3 times last night but it's the hours up and crying in the middle of the night that is putting us over the edge.  I know you are trying to help but I have to ask again is there anything else you think we should be doing differently?  I'm feeling desperate now because I dont' want this to cause friction with my husband and I, and I can't do this on my own...
One other question: My husband really wants to stick to PU/PD when he wakes up but in my opionion it stimulates him more- he wanted me to ask about this though.

[Layla]

I'm not a fan of CIO & Tracy didn't advocate that method because it can break the bond/trust between the baby and the mother, so personally I dont think thats a fair ultimatum . He has been used to being BF to sleep at night and that habit is hard to break. You've just started pupd 2 weeks ago and sleep training takes time and lots of patience. Believe me I understand where you are coming from and I myself have thought about that method but something like CIO comes with a price.

Here's some info on CIO - https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63839.0

There is no need to do pu/pd if he's just fussing. You only do it if he's crying, otherwise its too stimulating and keeps him up longer. At night, I would wait to see if he settles, if he's crying, I go in and do pu/pd until he's settled & leave. If he's moaning again, let him be and only go back if he's crying again.

Is he teething?

[Layla]

How are you feeling?

[dorninger]

I'm feeling appreciative of you asking that question!
Well, I think we are still going tough it out for a while.... is there a certain amount of time after which you would say, hum, that DS of yours just may not go for this?....
Last night same type of deal, woke a few times but then was really up from 1:30-3:00 am at which we fed him, he went to sleep and slept 3.5 hours.... Just really trying to get him to eat as much as he can during the days...

[Layla]

I know what you mean about trying to feed as much as you can during the day. Unfortunately some babies will hold onto night feeds until 9 months (& this occured with both my girls) and no matter what I did, it was just not worth fighting. I think once solids are more or less established, you can work on eliminating night feeds (maybe watering down formula) or using pu/pd instead & with time it should give him the message that he won't be fed at night any more

[dorninger]

Layla-
Do you think it would woth weaning him from the 3am feed to see if that would help our situation?  And I do really want to know if you think there are times when BW technique doesn't work for some babies... (and how much time we should carry on until we consider other techniques).
Sarah