waking a lot and up early...

[Layla]

What other techniques? Do you mean CIO or CC?

How long it takes to sleep train depends on how consistent you are and the temperament of your baby. But if he is waking out of hunger, why deny him what he needs? You know I've read somewhere that it can take the brain (the part thats responsible for sleep) up to 9 months (40 weeks) to fully develop & for them to sleep through all night. Of course some babies do it earlier but if not, I wouldn't see there being anything wrong with it either. If he settles with food, he is truly hungry. It is not uncommon for them to have a night feed up until 9 months (and for some even more). BF babies can hold onto night feeds past 9 months.

I think you need to carry on for as long as it takes. There will ALWAYS be something... be it milestone, sickness, travel, the arrival of a new baby, etc... that might throw him off a little and cause nightwakings. Sleep training is not something I see as doing once and thats it. Now its hard because its still fairly new to him. My 2yo still wakes here and there and I still go to her.

[dorninger]

well, its just that the 3 am feed isn't in tracy's books, so i wanted to make sure i wasn't doing something wrong.

[Layla]

I didn't really follow Tracy's book to that much of an extent. The sample routines are just that & I am sure you are doing the right thing .

What kind of a day did he have yesteday??? I was thinking that maybe the catnap is interfering with his night sleep. If he's had 2 long naps then maybe there is no need for a catnap?

[Layla]

Sarah, I was just washing dishes and thinking about you. I don't think I am really helping here but I thought maybe we could go another way around it....

The catnap - there came a time (for us it was 9months ) when it just wasn't working and if they had a catnap, nights would be hell. So as I mentioned before, if you are able to stretch him to naps at 9am (say 1.5hrs) and another nap at say between 1.30-2pm (1.5hrs) then you could put him down at 6.30pm instead of doing a catnap & bedtime at 7pm. If he's fussing for 45mins when you put him down at 7pm right now, it might be that he's just not tired enough so by eliminating the catnap and bringing the bedtime up, he might have more solid sleep.

Night feeds - If his last feed is at say 6.30pm (or just before bedtime), maybe you should start of by giving him up to 4-5hrs before the next feed. So if he wakes around 10.30pm, then feed him and back in bed until the next 4-5hrs. If he is up any earlier than 4hrs, I would do pu/pd to settle him. When I used to feed every 1-2hrs (like a maniac & just as you did) at night, it was very hard to just increase her intake during the day so I would stretch her feeds every 3hrs and then every 4hrs at night, etc...& would do shh/pat when/if she'd wake earlier than my desired time.

If he is truly taking in a feed (and not just 1/2 heartedly) when you are feeding him at night and also emptying the breast during the day, then I would say he really needs those nightfeeds so when you have established solids, you can work on eliminating them. You can now attempt to stop the 3am feed so if you are breastfeeding, what you do is reduce the time of the feed... so if he's taking 8 mins, cut it down to 7, 6, 5, etc... and then I would hope he is taking more in during the day & if he's still waking then you could do pu/pd for that 3am wake up. I would suggest gradually rather than not feeding at all and trying to settle him for hours in the middle of the night.

And lastly, don't doubt yourself. The book is there as a guide and not all babies are the same and will do the same thing. Alot of it at the start is trial and error. I used to be extremely jelous, reading through posts where babies did this amazing 8hr stretch at 6 weeks. My 1st child did 4-6hr stretches until she was 9months and I remember thinking will these night feeds ever end (of course when she did start sleeping through, I was pregnant with #2 and couldn't sleep anyways ... but you get the idea. He will sleep through, it just takes a little patience and consistency.

Ok, back to washing dishes
Speak to you later 

[dorninger]

Hey Layla
That was such a nice message- thanks for thinking of me (poor thing you!- lol)... It's funny because yesterday, before I got your post, I wrote a long one to you about the last couple days and some thoughs I was having and just as I was sending it my internet connection got lost- and I lost the message.  I didn't have the energy to do it again.  Anyway, I really appreciate your thoughts and will play around with them.  I'm beginning to think the same with the catnap thing- and think maybe an earlier bedtime instead may make more sense.  Yesterday was an interesting day as Phoenix (my DS) had two pretty lousy 45 min naps instead of his usual 1.5 hours and was super tired... I tried to get him to catnap around 4:00 but he wouldn't do it so instead I put him to bed at 5:45pm! A full hour and a half earlier than normal, but he conked right out... The night wasn't great- 4 wakings, two of them for 2 hours each, but he did sleep until 7am which is late for him, so even with the NW he got more hours in than usual.
So... I think my new approach is: two naps, and depending on how they go will determine nap time.  If they are good, try for 7pm or so, but if not good, earlier watching for his signs... In terms of night time wakings and feedings- I'm still not sure what to do... we do feed him earlier now as your earlier suggestion- so usually around 10pm but so far that has only seemed to make his next waking earlier... around 12-1: basically at best he seems to be in a 3 hour cycle at night- which means we deal with his being awake at least an hour until we feed him.  All I can do is hope this changes!  I'll keep tracking things, hoping to find a pattern to help him go a bit longer at night.... I mean part of me thinks- why not feed him every time he wakes, that way I'm not up 2-4 hours a night!  But I'm afraid if I do, his sleeping times will start to decrease (?).
Anyway, thanks again for thinking of me and for being such a great support.
Sarah

[twinkleprincess]

I am by no means an expert & only have a 10wk old who is an absolute pain in the bottom when it comes to naps & sleep in general!!  Our health visitor keeps saying he's one of those that's too alert for his age & just doesn't need the sleep even though I clearly point out that he'll nap for 30mins wake all jolly but not go back off to sleep so wait the 20mins for him to start getting upset then go & do shh/pat after 15mins of it he's still awake & it's only 30mins from Eat time so no point in continuing as he won't sleep if he's hungry.  So we get him up, feed him & he starts dozing on the bottle..try to keep him awake for a bit then we put him down for a nap & we start all over again!!  Again he's one of those that you can't just keep filling up!  If we cluster feed he'll not take so much at the next feed! These babies are real hard work & very trying at times!
Anyway, back to you......is your LO on solids??  Not sure where you are but in UK it's recommended BF babies are weaned at 6mth & I noticed that your LO is 7mth.  If so have you thought about giving him a solid feed a bit later in the day or even at the 10pm DF-maybe some baby rice to sit a bit heavier in his belly.  Also because he doesn't seem to take much food - could just be getting the thirst quenching bit have you consider introducing a bottle or 2 of formula so that you can monitor how much he's getting & try to fill him up with that.  Know it might not be a route you want to take but seeing as you appear to be at the end of your wits (as anyone in your boat would be!) it might be an option worth trying!
Anyway, I hope things improve for you all & sorry if my post is of no use or interest but I just felt for you when I read your post!
Kate x

[dorninger]

thanks twinkle for your ideas and support.  very nice to get compassion right now. We have introduced solids- for the last 2 weeks or so... he still BF as his primary nourishment but we are definitly increasing his solids steadly.  We actually did try formula a while back when I was having some milk production issues and he had a bad reaction to it, so no go there... HOWEVER I have to tell you and Layla that last night was amazing!!
He only woke two times last night (11:15 and 2:00- we fed him both times) and only fussed and stayed awake for 15 minutes!!!! The only change was that he stayed up much later last night.  We went to a barbaque (fathers day) last night and got home at 7:15- his normal bedtime.  So I skipped the massage and bath and went right for a change and feed and got him in bed at 7:45.  He then just played and sang  to himself for an hour, probably unwinding from the stimulating party and then without fuss went to sleep at 8:45!   
SOOOO- What to make of this... Put him down later?  Go to parties everynight?   I'm not sure... But I'm happy and so is he today.. Maybe this is just his fathers day gift to us?

[Layla]

Sarah, thats wonderful news!

I think getting rid of the catnap and spacing out the naps during the day would help. I am afraid if you put him to bed past his bedtime everynight, he will get overtired and it might get worse. He might have been pooped & so thats what made me think that if he's not catnapping, he's not getting so much daytime sleep so should have more solid sleep at night....

About solid & formula - I wouldn't advise it. I think the last solid meal should be around 5pm & tbh, I've never heard of feeding solids at a DF. Feeding solids too late in the day can cause uncomfort & I was told to add a few teaspoons of rice cereal to the milk as well but then she woke 2hrs later & threw up all over me . Babies also become much more efficint at emptying the breast as they get older so I am sure he is getting what he needs as long as he not being BF every 1-2hrs & not snacking.

Sarah, I have to go now so may not reply for a few hours. Jasmine screamed out & woke me up and its only 4:34am here so I might get some more sleep before I am up for the day.

You're doing great! I am so pleased he was able to give you guys some rest 

[dorninger]

Layla
Sounds like you were up early!  I hope you got some more zzz's... I have always loved the name Jasmine...
So, we will go with the new plan of skipping catnaps and see how it goes.  I'll log and let you know how it goes in a couple days.
All my best.
Sarah

[Layla]

Sorry Sarah... don't want to be annoying . Just want to give an indication of the A times if he's dropping the catnap (so that he's not up a long stretch before beditme & getting overtired). Its about 3hrs (other than the morning A time which is usually a little shorter, 2.5ish hrs)

9-10.30 - morning nap
1.15/1.30 - 3ish - afternoon nap
6.30ish - bedtime

Good luck

[dorninger]

That's prettty much the opposite of annoying.  You're awesome.  Thanks for making that clear.

[dorninger]

well, I couldn't go a full few days without another post with more questions 
So we did the new sch yesterday:  Here's how it went
9-11 S
2-2:50 S (tried and tried to extend it, no go)
6:15pm S (after only 15 min of mild fuss)
8:40 awake- hysterical crying, really quite bad (we had still cluster fed and another bf right before bed)
Would not calm down until being fed at 10:40 (the whole time I basically knew he probably would not go back to sleep until I fed him... )
10:40-2:40 S (good stretch!)
2:40 awake, feed
5:30 awake, up for day

So, two questions:  It seems he just likes to be fed every 3-4 hours at night.  Should I just give in to this even though it may mean 3 night feedings?  If I do, do you think he may then start waking more often?

He averages only 9-9.5 hours of sleep a night.  By pushing his bedtime earlier I wonder if I'm shooting myself in the foot by having him wake up even earlier.  5:30 is rough for me.

I'm okay to give this a few more days if you think things may switch around, but I need a little encouragment to do so

I realize his afternoon nap wasn't good.  So today I will limit his morning nap to 1.5 hours and see if that helps.

Thanks!

[Layla]

Hey, I am glad you posted.

The afternoon nap is always hard! The morning nap is usually the easiest to get but I agree with you in that if he's taking a short pm nap, that could be an indication that the mornign nap was too long. You might also want to try w2s for the pm nap. I had to do that a few times cause Jasmine was stuck on the 45min pm nap & it was purely habitual. So I used to go into her room at 30mins & stir her (move her blanket or stroke her palm or cheek) and then leave. Just make sure you don't wake him. You just want to stir him so that he's in and out of the cycle. Anyways, it will take a couple of days to catch up on sleep. Its great that he had an early night. I persoanlly wouldn't do a feed any less than 4hrs... he really should be able to do 6hrs so I would do pu/pd rather than feed every 3-4hourly. It can become a habit (again).

9hrs at night is not enough - he should be getting at least 10.5-11hrs at night.

Let me know how it goes with the nap today 

[dorninger]

Hello dear Layla
Well, it's been a rough one.  Here's how the last two days and nights went.  As you will see the naps have been spot on, and the first night not bad, but last night was terrible...
5:30am awake
6:40-7:00 catnap (not intentional- in the stroller)
9:00-10:30am nap
1:20-3:20pm nap (terrific!)
6:45-10:05pm sleep
10:05-10:45pm awake
10:45 feed
10:45-1:45 sleep
1:45am awake- replace paci, back asleep easily
3:00 awake, feed
6:20 awake for day

yesterday:
8:50-10:20 nap
2:00-3:30 nap (put down at 1:30- took 30 min to fall asleep)
6:50 sleep
7:20-8:10 awake, crying hard (this is unusual- only 30 min after going to sleep, it doesn't seem to me that he should be OT ... ?)
9:15 awake, replace paci
10:15-10:40 awake
10:40 feed
12:30-1:30 awake, crying on and off
1:30 feed (i gave in, i really was tired hadn't slept much at all)
4:00-4:30 awake
4:30 feed only 1 oz (i gave in again, but also wanted to see, was he really that hungry again, so only gave him an ounce and he fell back asleep- hum...)
6:20 awake for day...
So once again I'm wondering what I'm missing here?  Especially because the naps have been so good.  He really doesn't seem to be teething.... it is hot here so maybe that's part of it?  He also is a bit constipated, he hasn't had a BM in 3 days- we go through this now and then since he's been on solids, so maybe his tummy hurts?.... I don't know.
Now for part two of this post entitled
"What the Heck are we thinking??!!"
Okay, so I have to also tell you that in a week we are travelling from the US to Austria for two weeks... UGG.  I mean I'm excited, but of course feel a good amount of dread concerning what this will do to poor Phoenix's sleep.  I just thought I'd mention this as it's coming up, I'll be out of touch for a while, and I thought you should now the whole story.
Hoping things are well over there with you and yours.
Sarah

[Layla]

Hey Sarah

So once again I'm wondering what I'm missing here?  Especially because the naps have been so good.  He really doesn't seem to be teething.... it is hot here so maybe that's part of it?  He also is a bit constipated, he hasn't had a BM in 3 days- we go through this now and then since he's been on solids, so maybe his tummy hurts?.... I don't know.

His naps are good indeed! I would say if he hasn't had a BM in 3 days, that might have something to do with it? Do you give him water at all? Maybe try prune jiuce (diluted) or some prunes in the morning so he does a BM at least once during the day. What type of solids do you give & when (sorry if I asked this before).