NW - wet nappy, overtired, milestone??

[Layla]

I am not ignoring you. Just going to put the girls to sleep and then will come back to tell you what I think (I promise).

Hang in there!

[Layla]

Sounds like you had a rough night  . He definitely sounds overtired and I would do a 6pm bedtime for a few days to help him catch up. Also if he's had a 45min nap for the pm and you can't extend it, try for a catnap at around 4ish. Because he's had such a short nap, he should take a 45min catnap to tie him over till bedtime. What time have you been putting him down for the pm nap? When you put him down for a nap, is he standing up and crying so you do pu/pd or just playing around for 30mins.

[DavidsMum]

fortunately he can not stand up yet, he just rolls around and then after about 20 mins starts crying and it escalates from there, or somedays it is crying from the get go.

PUPD doesn't always work as he thinks he is getting a cuddle then bam back in the cot. I will pick him up twice but after that he stays in the cot.....he is the kind of bub that the more you fuss the less likely he will go to sleep.

pm nap is trying to be at 1300. So yesterday he woke from am at 915....back in cot at 1300.....not asleep until 1345.

I am wondering if the fact that he is always overtired when he goes down so he pretty much crashes may be a factor...so he isn't really learning how to put himself to sleep as he  just passes out....then when he isn't overtired he doesn't remember how to go to sleep?

I have no idea what I am doing anymore....it has been a week with these set nap times and it is obviously not working...maybe I'll go back to the old nap 2.5 hours after you wake and have no actual consistency in our days???

[Layla]

Ok, so lets start from the morning nap. If it ended at 9:15, then the pm nap should be 3hrs later so more like 12.15/12.30pm & then I would have done a catnap at 4.30/5pm. He was probably OT by the time he was put down for pm nap.

Are you able to do an earlier bedtime to start with so that he is better refreshed in the morning & you are able to stretch him in the morning till 9am.

If picking him up makes things worse, then I would just do pd. So if he's fussing, playing, mantra crying, etc... leave him and if he really needs you, then go in, reassure him with your words until he settles and leave. If he is on all fours, pd and stay with him until he settles and then leave.

[DavidsMum]

Sorry I got that wrong...he woke from am at 1015. Back in bed at 1 but asleep at 145 then up at 255 and back down at 630.
I was sure you had got good sleep yesterday and would sleep through.

This arvo he did 1h15m and then I got a 45 catnap at 4pm so we are aiming for 630 bed at latest.

He seems a little more rested this evening....but I thought that yesterday too.   

[Layla]

Its ok, it takes a little while to get over the whole OT state. I am glad you got a catnap in. I would do that if you can until at least his pm nap lengthens. I hope tonight is better for you. Its freezing here (i'm in Victoria) so I understand what you mean about the weather.

[DavidsMum]

Something has backfired on me.

Got him down at 625  but now 700 and he is still awake...oops just started screaming.

[DavidsMum]

Have you ever come across this before Layla?

He will go down and then 20 mins later (so I assume he hasn't been asleep ..just trying) he starts fussing and crying.
Then I go in and pick him up and he instantly falls asleep in my arms...I mean instant.

It is not the first time this has happened. It is as though he just can't quite get to that final sleep stage on his own. What do you think that is all about...overtired, undertired???

I am not sure what to make of last night. He was making the loud noises at 340...then calling out at 400 but overtired mum ignored him and next she knew she was waking up and realising he was quiet 435...then I know he woke up again sometime after 5 (I checked the clock but do not remember what it was) but again I was sooo tired..... then at 6am he was really calling out and ready to get up. Very wet nappy again.

He wasn't hungry as he didn't ask for BF until 655....even watched DH have breakfast without demanding his own....unheard of.

He seemed a lot happier today as well, lots of giggles and smiles so hopefully he is catching up on sleep.

I assume he slept some more between 340 and 6am....when I asked DH if he thought he'd gone back to sleep at all he replied "I thought this was the first time he'd woken"......oh to be the daddy one.

[DavidsMum]

What a crap day...he will not sleep.

Put him down for his 9am nap...a bit of babbling then quiet...I assumed he'd gone to sleep and then 925 screaming....I guess he had  done the "be quiet for a bit" trick.

I tried everything to get him to sleep and then at 11am I gave up.

He is so tired, uncoordinated, rubbing his eyes, yawning, pulling his hair but definitely not sleeping.

I don't think he'll ever be getting a baby brother if he continues like this. 

[Layla]

Ok, lets start from the beginning. Did you used to hold him to sleep? How long and when did you stop?

He might be going through regression when you started sleep training. So something that happened today.... when you say you tried everything to get him to sleep, what did you try? Trying too many things can be quiet confusing. So if you are doing pu/pd for 15mins and then holding hands for the other 15 and then holding him and rocking for the next 15, thats too much handling and really confusing to him (not saying thats what you are doing but just giving an example).

When he wakes in the morning, go on about your day until nap time routine. Do your windown and in the cot. LEAVE him... let him talk, sing, mantra cry, whatever he wants to do for up to an hour. If he's crying then go in and do pu/pd. Give him up to 1hr to get to sleep. If he's NOT falling asleep, forget the nap and try for the pm nap (but earlier to avoid overtiredness & protect the schedule - so 11.30am). Again, put him down & leave. Give him an hour to fall alseep. If he's starting to cry & needs you, do pu/pd until the nap duration is over (let this be 1.5hrs for the pm nap). If he's fallen asleep & only sleeps a short time, then try for a catnap OR earlier bedtime.

I don't think he'll ever be getting a baby brother if he continues like this. 

Lol, or a baby sister 

[DavidsMum]

When he was ill last month I held him to sleep if he had trouble....but more so I used it to extend his naps and when he woke at night. He had so much fluid in his throat and blocked nose so the elevation helped him sleep better. This was for about 2 weeks and stopped 2 - 3 weeks ago...not really sure...

This morning we did the usual routine, play with mum and DH until 7, 7 =BF, 730=play on floor and talk to dog whilst mum has shower, 8=breakfast 2x weetbix, then more quiet play on floor "twinkle twinkle little star" that kind of stuff. 845 = change and into grobag, goodnight to the magnet on the fridge, goodnight to the frontdoor and cuddles on way to bed.....mum needs 2 yawns to know he is ready...into bed 855 and snuggles down

I came out and posted to you and then 925 = screaming. I went in and he was all smiles and giggles as soon as he saw me. If I left the room screaming recommenced, but when I am in there he just wants to play. If i try to put my hand on him as reassurance he just wants to play with my fingers and suck on them. He didn't even try and put his head down. Then by 10 he was getting upset so pupd then at 1030 I was desperate so tried holding him to sleep but still awake at 11.

It is lovely outside so after BF we went outside and ate some leaves and watched the posties drive by.

Then 12pm lunch and in bed at 1220 today. He carried on a bit but has gone quiet so maybe he is asleep?

The catnap could be my undoing, as he downright refuses a 3rd nap I have to rock or cuddle him to sleep...and it doesn't always work anymore.

I don't think he'll ever be getting a baby brother if he continues like this. 

Lol, or a baby sister 

Oh no I know what my sister and I were like as teenagers so I already ruled out a baby sister 

[Layla]

After 9 months, I think J stopped refusing as catch up around 9 months as well and if she took it, her nights were a bit funny.... so I would say if he's not having the catnap, then do 6pm bedtime.

I am just wondering... there's a wi/wo method for toddlers & I think I might have seen somewhere here a baby version. I'm just going to double check with the mods to see where I can find the link and if infact it can be used for a lo of 9 months old.
Because it seems to me like he wants to play when he sees you... so I think maybe wi/wo might be better.

I hope he has a nice long sleep in the afternoon. Poor bub must be so tired

[DavidsMum]

After watching him trying to sleep this arvo I realise the problem is he is totally OT.

So I think I need to abandon the current plan and get him some sleep....at all costs....not sure how to do that without AP
 

But I realise things are never going to improve whilst he is OT and I doubt going to bed 30mins earlier is going to fix this, it may help but if you think all he has had today is 45mins sleep and 15min catnap and was OT to begin with.

I have no idea what to do   How on earth did we get to this point?

[Layla]

I am sorry things are so tough at the moment. I am not sure what to say . If you rock/hold him to sleep now & say he catches up on sleep, then he'll have to be sleep trained at some stage and will still hit an overtired zone. I know 30mins earlier bedtime doesn't seem like it will help but it did in my case thats why I suggest it. To be honest, I used to put J to sleep as early as 5.30pm when she was extremely overtired (which has happened a few times with the time change and transition to 1 nap). There were plenty of days she would sleep only 45mins in the morning & pm & used to go to sleep for the night extremely early.

[nursekat]

So I think I need to abandon the current plan and get him some sleep....at all costs....not sure how to do that without AP
 

I can say I've done this several times with dd...she is very spirited and the more tired she is, the less likely I can get her to sleep at ANY cost!  Just know that in the future you will have to undo whatever you have done to catch up on sleep.  Sometimes it was also a salve for MY sanity, to get her caught up on sleep and to regroup and catch my breath.

At 9 months pu can be dropped and do just pd, especially if he is wanting to be picked up.  I did a combo pd and wi/wo at that age and sh didn't necessarily have SA, I was just teaching independent sleep.  Since she was so mobile and aware at this age, I wanted her used to me not being in the room, so I'd pd, do a little back rub then walk out.  If she sat up and cried out I'd go back in and repeat.  I'd try not to leave unless she was calm.  If that makes sense.  Not sure if it would work at this point as it sounds like he is pretty freaked out about going in the crib.  Have you read about the gradual removal plan yet?  Might be a try after you get him caught up on sleep.

As for the catnap, most babies won't take one when they are done with that stage, which is usually around 6 months.  I agree with Layla to save your sanity a tad and not try to worry about a catnap but work on an early bedtime.

And I may be going out on a limb here, so feel free to smack me around a bit , but have you thought of being UNDERtired?  My dd does exactly the same things if she is undertired as if she is overtired.  AND she has more night wakings, go figure.  I just know the few times I was pulling my hair out trying to force her to sleep and not being able to figure out why we couldn't get on top of the OTness, we tried the opposite direction and lo and behold she was just needing her day stretched out a tad more.

Also, call me crazy but what is his eating routine?  Believe it or not a lot of sleeping issues stem from eating issues as well.  Just wanting to cover all the bases.

AND...dang I just typed that and heard dd wake and there went my thought.  Darn Mommy brain.  If I think of it I'll come back.

Maybe if you can post a super detailed routine of what the past day looked like?  Include eating, amounts of food, wind-down routines, night wakings, etc etc.

And dang I'm headed off for the weekend.  I'm so so sorry I jumped in late.  I KNOW you can do this!!  You're doing so well just keeping it together as it is!  HUGS to you!