11mo - It’s turned into a nightmare!

[debo620]

I guess it depends on how long she sleeps.
I think I would wake at 3:30ish
bed 7pm

[traineeparent]

Hi there

After a bit of experimenting, I definitely think she needs more than 30 mins in the morning, it was making her really overtired (plus also because she'd had a short night's sleep from going to bed so late).   I'm going to go with 45 mins and try that out.

Still got problems settling at ngiht even after 45min AM nap plus good PM nap.   I think it's the standing thing plus SA.

I've got to organise her 1st birthday party now (yay!) so I'll be back on the boards in a few days. Got to get through the next few days!   

[Ydnic]

Hi there,

I am going through something VERY similiar with my lo!  Naps are disastrous lately.  At first I thought it was they 2 for 1 switch, but all that did was make for a seriously overtired baby.  I HATE overtired.

In our case, I'm getting to be suspicious that there is some serious mental developmental stuff going on.  He is doing, saying so many new things.  It seems like he's forgetting (temporarily, I hope) the things he already knew or just not able to shut his mind off to sleep.  Naps were always a disaster with us when he learned a new physical skill like rolling and crawling that is part of what made me suspect this.

Once we're back on track and caught up with some sleep, I plan on shortening his AM nap as well.

It totally sucks, doesn't it?  Take comfort in the fact that someone else is going through the same napping issues as you are.

Cindy

[traineeparent]

Hi Cindy

Thanks, it's good to know I'm not alone!  I always get worried that it'll never get better!   Her problems have been after a milestone - crawling/sitting/pulling up all in the same week!!!

cheers
Caz

[traineeparent]

Hi there

Well the 1st birthday party went well – yay!  Now I’m over that, back to sorting out these problems.   

I’ve had 2 successful days with cutting short the AM nap to 45 mins and getting a PM nap.  Yay!!     One day I got PM nap of 1:40 mins, the other was 2hrs!  But she was really hard to settle both nights.   

We did:

7:00  She woke (Day 2 – 6:40 She woke)
9:40  Start wind-down, asleep 9:50
10:35 woke her (45 mins)
1:25  Start wind-down, asleep 1:40   (Day 2 – 1:05  wind-down, asleep 1:20)
3:20  She woke = 1:40 hrs  (Day 2 – She woke 3:15 = 1:55 hrs)
6:45  Bedtime Start wind-down, asleep 8:45   (Day 2 – 6:40  wind-down, asleep 8:05)

She’s still NW-ing 2-3 times every night.  Usually 4 hrs after falling asleep, DH can usually resettle. Then 2 or 4am, DH tries but usually feed.  Sometimes 4/5am.

So I’m wondering what to do to tweak the routine to get her to settle better at night.  Do you think bedtime was too late or too early?  Should I have woken her from her PM nap?  She used to be fine waking at 3/3:30 and bedtime 6:45/7. But that’s 2 months ago now!!

Re the settling problem, if it’s SA, should I stay in the room so she can see me, or leave/hide and keep coming back when she’s upset?  That’s what I used to do to sleep train her.  Weaned her off shush-pat (used to do it all the way to sleep, then at 5-6 mo, got it so I could put her down and walk out).   For the last few weeks I’ve been staying in the room where she could see me (dark room so right next to the cot), but I think that was confusing her, she thought it was playtime, kept throwing her lovies out of the cot.  So a couple of nights I tried going back to the old way.   One night it worked, and she lay down and I rubbed her back, hid, went back and forth a few times then she settled and went to sleep. But last night she just kept standing up.  I also figured she’s teething so I shouldn’t try anything “new” (even though it’s what I used to do) I’m so confused!…….. ended up getting her up and trying again later.  (Yesterday wasn’t great re naps, had a PM appt, so 1 hr nap in AM and 30 mins PM in car, so perhaps that was the problem).

I’m still getting days where she just won’t settle for the AM nap.  Often at the weekend when DH is home, but weekdays too.  He used to put her down for naps fine, but he’s had problems for the last 2 months now. Any ideas why? Is she older and more aware of him???

Also if anyone comes over for lunch she’s hard to settle (overstimulation?)  Does anyone else have that problem?  I want to have a life!!  I’m always in 2 minds whether to put her down ASAP since she’s tired, or do a longer wind-down – perhaps it would calm her more.

Also I’ve had days when she just wouldn’t go down for the PM nap.  Perhaps I’ve left it too late.  Like today - she woke from AM nap after 35 mins = overtired???  Tried to put her down a bit earlier for PM nap but she wasn’t having it. Tried a bit later, no dice.  Teething?   So took her out in the car.

Now having said all that re settling, DH has just managed to put her down quickly and easily!!! And that’s after a 35 min AM nap and 30 min PM nap in car!!!  Remains to be seen if she stays asleep all evening.        He reckons we need to turn down the light in her room more gradually (main light to lamp to nightlight to darkness) and not rush out. SA.

Back to naps – the 2 days I had success with cutting short the AM nap, she was pretty tired from late bedtime and nightwakings, so was ready for nap at 9:30.    One day she was not tired so didn’t put her down till 10am, woke her after 55mins, then she wouldn’t go down for PM nap.  Was that cos she wasn’t tired after too long PM nap (55 mins), or too late PM nap?  I’m not sure what I’ll do if she doesn’t seem tired at 9:30.   But I guess I should stick to the same times for a few days and see what happens?

Any suggestions welcome!  Thanks again for all the support.

[debo620]

well a couple of things,

I would think that her total sleep needs probably are in the range of 13.5-14.
 I would suggest aiming for a 2h-2.25hrs of naps and 11.5 of nights.

I would also suggest just putting her down at 9:45am everyday, allowing the nap to run no later then 10:30am.
    next nap start windown at 1:15, asleep by 1:30 and wake at 3pm.
I know I previously said 3:30pm, but I do think the fighting a bedtime is not tired enough to go to bed. she then probably gets OT in the process and is up til after 8, kwim? with NW etc.
so wake at 3pm
bedtime 7pm, hopefully asleep by 7:15
and then waking 6:30/6:45.

the SA thing is tough.
There are two methods, WI/WO or gradual withdrawal. It really depends on your LO. I personally feel you may be better with WI/WO. I believe most would just say their phrase and then leave, return when they are upset etc. There is a link to wi/wo method in Toddler sleep FAQ.
The  other option is to stay in the room, but totally turn your back on her and ignore the playing etc. then slowly you move the chair further and further out of the room. this method may take longer.

HTH, 

[traineeparent]

Hi there

Thanks for the 3pm suggestion debo620 - that seems about right.

Thought I'd give you an update.  It's been a mix of good and bad. The good news is that she's settling really well at night now!  Yay!   (Touch wood).      DH does it most nights and just turns down the light gradually. We've only had 1 bad night when she wouldn't settle - that was after a birthday party so probably too excited.   And 1 night when she fell asleep then woke after 35 mins and wouldn't go back to sleep for 2 hrs.  All other nights have been quick and easy.

The naps have been up and down.  Since I last posted, only 1 good day - where I woke her after 45 mins and got a good PM nap.  2 days in the PM nap she woke after 35 mins and I resettled her (rubbed her back).  Perhaps a little overtired.  3 days I woke at 45 mins, then she wouldn't go down at all for PM nap.  5 days she just wouldn't go down for a AM nap at all - took her out in the car sometimes. 3 of those days I got a PM nap, others not at all.

I wonder if it's because she's getting a better night's sleep that she can stay up later in the AM? Or perhaps I should go back to waking after 35 mins.  It's usually around 9.30 for AM nap and 1/1.30 for PM nap.  I can't pick what's in common the days she won't go down.

Early last week she was starting to wake for the day earlier and earlier (5.30am) which had me worried, but it seems back to 6.45-7am-ish now which is good.

She's still waking 1-2 x a night. She was regulary wanting a feed at 11pm/12am - getting earlier which was ridiculous. But last night not till 4am which is progress.

Sunday night she had a fever and virus so taking it easy for a few days.  She does seem to be on the mend.

It's been incredibly frustrating, but at least we've made progress with settling at night. Phew.

[debo620]

Hi there,
sounds as things are going well.

I would still consider a 30min am nap and watch the clock, at 9:30am, and then have her in the crib for 12:45, asleep by 1pm type thing.

with the 45mi am naps, the pm nap is so unpredictable---it can be very hard to judge the right amount of A time afterwards to get a good pm nap. if you wake after 30min, you can cut the next A time short---even have her in her crib after 2.5 if you would like so that she plays and fall asleep when she wants. this is what we did and it worked great.

[traineeparent]

Hi there

Thanks.  I might give the 30 min nap another go, especially if she's had a good night's sleep. I think last time I tried the 30 min AM nap she was settling badly, going to sleep late, so it just made her more and more overtired.

If I put her down early for a nap, sometimes she'll play/babble a bit for a few mins then fall asleep. Other times she'll babble then build up to crying. I'll try it and see.

Any ideas on why she's refusing her AM nap quite frequently? Do you think it might just be part of the transition?

Settling's been great, until tonight!!  But it was a different sort of day, probably overstimulated.

Thanks again

[debo620]

so is she still waking at 7?
what time are you offering the am nap, how often is she refusing it?

[traineeparent]

Hi there

Thanks for your support 

She’s 13 months now.  I would have posted sooner, but haven’t had time to catch my breath, it’s been so bad. 

To answer  your questions: She’s still waking between 6.45 and 7 everyday thankfully.

I generally put her down about 9.30, sometimes as early as 9.15, sometimes as late as 9.45.    In the last 19 days, she’s gone down only 8 times, despite seeming tired.  Other days I’ve given up and (most days) taken her out in the car.   Once a week she’s now got a preschool group thing which means I’d have to leave extra early so she could nap en route – or else she just gets a PM nap when we get home – that’s what happened on Tuesday (she slept for 2 hrs at 12.30, then asleep at 6.20pm, woke 1 hr later, banged her head, not asleep again till 9.40pm).  The 3 days since then she’s refused the AM nap.  I’m wondering if it’s part of the transition to 1 nap - should I fight it or should I just regularly take her out in the car for a nap – saw someone do that in the 2-1 nap thread.

I admit I’m giving up more easily on the AM nap.  It takes a few mins to get ready to go out in the car, so don’t want to keep trying to settled her and leave it too late for a car nap.  Most days she just stands straight up.  I don’t even get to the door, if I do, she screams.  She won’t just play and then settle down, if I’ve put her down too early she cries too.    The times she goes to sleep (AM or PM) she stays lying down.

Looking back, the only successful combination lately seems to be a car nap of 15-20 mins which ends up being at 10.30ish, nap at 1/1.30.  That only happened 2 days, because generally she would sleep 35 mins in the car.  Today she seemed so tired after only 8.5 hrs sleep last night so I went early and she had 45 mins in car. But then she’s just refused her PM nap. I’ve got to go out anyway so I’ll go earlier and she’ll get a nap in the car.   

Yesterday I got  PM nap after 15 mins in the car in AM.  But then I messed it up cos I delayed putting her to bed (although she seemed tired) till 7.  She wouldn’t settle until after 10pm. – overtired and just wired! I was worried if I put her to bed too early she’d wake after an hour and not go back to sleep – which has happened a few times. 

As for the settling at night, we’ve had 2 weeks of her settling easily at night (with 2 wake-ups and not back asleep for hours) then the last 5 nights have been mostly bad – 3 nights she wouldn’t settle, 1 night woke after an hour and up for hours, (1 night woke after 45 mins and DH resettled).   I’ve been AP-ing a bit, getting desperate.  I’m starting to wonder if she’s forgotten all her sleep skills!  Why is their so much regression? She seems to have such a short sleep window, miss it and I’m in trouble.

She’s definitely not getting anywhere near 14 hrs sleep. She’s averaging 12 ¼ incl naps! Used to be more like 13.5 when she was 8 months.  She’s usually asleep from 6.40pm/7pm till 6.40am/7am, but I subtract the  time she’s awake for feeds in the night.

I think I’m going to go around the twist, it’s really driving me crazy.   

[traineeparent]

I'm just wondering if milestones are affecting her again. Not that we've really got over the last milestone (sitting, standing, crawling all at once)!!  She's been cruising a lot and free-standing. Yesterday she took 5 steps by herself!  First steps - I didn't see them, DH did!  So wondering if she's learning that and has forgotten how to go to sleep??  Sometimes I've seen her stand in the middle of her cot, but  it's not like that's what she's doing instead of going to sleep.

[debo620]

Hi there,
definately the milestones can effect sleep. walking....thats exciting. just give her as much practice as possible during the day.

I think that she is refusing the am catnap maybe b/c its being offered to early after a 7am wake-up
so I would stick with 10:15-wake after 30min, so awake by 10:45
next nap 1:30-3
bedtime 7

[traineeparent]

Hi there

She did 8 steps in row! Very exciting, and at last I've seen her do it too.   

I wonder how long would the walking milestone could affect her?  I don't feel like the sitting/pulling up milestone was long ago!  And I don't feel like we've recovered from it.

You might be right that she isn't tired enough at 9.30 for the AM nap.  But most days she is rubbing her eyes by then.  I guess we had a lot of days when she was tired after those nights where she's not settled till 10pm -  so she was more tired in the morning.  But now that she's settling well (3 nights in a row now after one bad one, touch wood it will continue) she could stay up longer.  So today put her down at 10.30 (slightly later than intended) and she refused the AM nap.  Too late to go for a drive, so she just had one nap. Gave her lunch and put her down at 12.40, she fell asleep but only slept an hour, woke crying.  Tried to resettle her, no luck though she seemed tired.  I think that just reaffirms for me that she's overtired and 1 nap a day isn't enough!   

I'm getting to the point of thinking it's best to just go out in the car at 10 instead of this fighting her everyday.  If I put her down at 10.15/30 then if she didnt' go down it would be too late to go out, cos it'll mess up the next nap.  It's just so frustrating spending so much time getting her to sleep. I could accept it when she was 3 months old, but 13 !!

Anyway she went to bed at 6.30 and was asleep straight away and is still asleep - so far.

I just don't know what to do with her when I miss that sleep window, she's just wide awake.  Even if you do your best to avoid it, it will happen.   Any suggestions?  They even say don't do PUPD if they're overtired.  (I don't want to do PUPD anyway).

[debo620]

well, I know what you mean about jut not wanting to fight for a morning naps, so if you know she'll sleep in the car at a reasonable time (before 10:30) then go for it. Now when she refused the am nap today, I think you probably would have been best to offer the 1 nap at 5hrs after waking (so say 12pm) 12:40 was probably a bit late and thus the short nap.

Honestly, my son is 18months and has been on one nap for like 2 months, and it is still a struggle. today he woke early (6am) and then fell asleep in the car for 10min at 10:45, this kept him going in his crib til 1, and I have to have him up by 2:30--so he'll be asleep by 7:15 or so.
so 10min nap plus 1.5hr pm nap----he probably would have been better off with a 2hr plus nap starting at 11:30----so this is why we are past the stage of 2 naps. but this morning he was a grump.

the overtired, missing the window thing, i understand that too. At this age for us, if I miss the window (actually the clock ) at bedtime ----then he takes FOREVER to fall asleep, usually though he just plays for 30min plus mixed in with some fussing. I may have to go in a couple of times. Now at this age, you dont PU, I just say its bedtime and lay him down, hand him his lovey and leave. He does sometimes cry when I leave---but gets over within seconds, if he conitnues to cry, I just go in and repeat etc, sort of a WI/WO thing.