How to drop a night feeding?

[SarahMksm]

Can anybody give me advice about how to drop a night feeding?  I'm breastfeeding, so watering down the feeding won't work.  I think that getting rid of night feedings is the only solution, but when your baby is in the habit of feedings and gets hungry at those times, what do you do?

I have a five-month-old who is basically on this schedule:

7am   wakeup, breastfeed
8am   breakfast (solids)
9am   nap (usually until about 10:30)
11am breastfeed
12pm lunch (solids)
1pm   nap (usually until about 2:30)
3pm   breastfeed
5:30pm   nap (45 minutes)
6:15pm  dinner (solids)
6:45pm  start bedtime routine
7:15pm  breastfeed
7:20pm  bed

This is an idealized schedule, of course.  She often takes only a 45 minute nap instead of 1 hr. 30 minutes, especially for the 1pm one, so then I add an extra 45 minute nap at 3.  We often end up getting off course during the day, either because she takes forever to go down for a nap or we're running errands or something or other, which is why that last nap usually ends up being at 5:30 or 6 instead of 5, as might be expected.  Sometimes we end up with a 4 or 4:30pm nap somehow, so I add a 6 or 6:30pm nap and she goes to bed at 8.  I *try* to be consistent, but she isn't!

Anyway, we pretty much go right into dinner and then the bedtime routine as soon as she wakes up from the catnap, but she's still sometimes overtired going down.  She generally ends up waking up every hour for the first part of the night, which I know means overtired, but I don't know why she's overtired or what to do about it.  Anyway, I'll finally give her a dreamfeed at whatever waking is in the 10:00 hour.  She'll generally wake several times at night (12, 2, 4, 5, for instance, but it's very irregular, no pattern whatsoever).  I feel like she keeps waking in anticipation of her night-time feeding (she generally needs to eat once or twice in the night).  I know it's not habit waking, it's hunger waking, but that's because hunger itself is a habit.  I know she's capable of sleeping from the dreamfeed to the morning, but she's gotten in the habit of being hungry during the night.  How does one fix that?  I really think that the night wakings aren't going to stop until she isn't taking any night feedings.

I can't just "increase intake during the day" easily, as she's a breastfed baby who doesn't seem to want to eat much.  She'll nurse for 5 minutes or less at a feeding.  Stretching her feedings to 4 hours made no difference, she doesn't seem any hungrier when it's been 4 or even 5 hours since a feeding than she is when it's been 2.  We're on solids now, and she eats a lot in the way of solids, but it hasn't made much nighttime difference yet.

Any advice for how to drop the night feeding(s)?  I've sort of tried making her wait a bit longer for the feeding every night, but she's so unpredictable that it's hard.  Sometimes she takes 2 ounces or less at the dreamfeed, sometimes she takes over 3, even close to 4.  So how can I treat every night the same when she isn't always starting with a full tank?  She takes maybe 3-4 ounces a feed during normal daytime nursing sessions, I think (judging by what she'll take from a bottle).

[Layla]

From what I am reading, she takes 4 catnaps (or 1 long morning nap and 3 catnaps)

She'll generally wake several times at night (12, 2, 4, 5, for instance, but it's very irregular, no pattern whatsoever).  I feel like she keeps waking in anticipation of her night-time feeding (she generally needs to eat once or twice in the night).  I know it's not habit waking, it's hunger waking, but that's because hunger itself is a habit.  I know she's capable of sleeping from the dreamfeed to the morning, but she's gotten in the habit of being hungry during the night.  How does one fix that?  I really think that the night wakings aren't going to stop until she isn't taking any night feedings.

Alot of babies after 5 months start waking at night becuase of an incorrect/irregular schedule. So I would actually not offer her a catnap as late as 5:30/6pm & instead put her to bed early for the night (like 6/6.30pm). Do you find that you have to wake her from the catnap when its that late? If yes, she's probably going into night mode at that time.

The morning nap is almost always easiest to achieve. I had lots of problems with the afternoon nap as well and I had to do w2s for a LONG time to get her to extend it. Are you aware of the w2s method at all? I used to walk into her room at 30mins and make her stir (move her blanket or do something just enough to make her move) & then leave. This should wake her from one cycle and into the next and she should then sleep longer. The catnap I wouldn't do any later than 5pm personally and although you can get one late in the evening, if the catnap is too close to bedtime, it can interrupt night sleep. She really needs to be having at least 10.5-11hrs at night.

All those wakings at night are normal, and we all wake so if she's just waking and stirring a little and then gets herself back to sleep, I would let her be. If she's crying & its a full blown cry, then I would try shh/pat if its been anything under 4-5hrs before her last feed. If not, I would feed. Is she in your room?

To get rid of the night feeds (if you are BF-ing), then you would want to limit the time at the breast (so instead of 5min feed, reduce to 4mins, then 3, then 2, etc...) and she should be taking more in during the day. I don't think you should make her go any longer than 3.5hrs. Its not uncommon for BF babies to do 3hrly feeds during the day... so I wouldn't be pushing her to 4hr feeds. She could be an efficient eater.... do you feel like she is emptying the breast? Its also not uncommon for babies at 5 montsh to have up to 2 night feeds (1 DF & 1 close to the morning) so I wouldn't be cutting them out altogether. Once solids are more or less established, I would be working on cutting feeds out but in the meantime I think this is also a schedule issue.

hth

Layla

[SarahMksm]

I'm sorry, I guess I was unclear about the naps.  On good days, she's managing two long naps, morning and afternoon, then an evening catnap around 5:30.  So three naps, two long and one catnap.  Sometimes it ends up being a long and three catnaps, but that's certainly not what I want to have happen.  Wake to sleep doesn't work at all.  I spent about three weeks trying it, then gave up.  I have other things to do then spend hours in her room every day.  Often now she'll wake after 45 minutes or an hour, and I'll go in, cover her eyes, give her her pacifier, and shh/pat and she'll go back down.  Sometimes she'll sleep straight through.

You're right that it feels odd to have such a late evening nap.  But otherwise, if she ends up taking a 4pm nap, she'll be up at 4:45, and even with dinner she'll be in bed by 5:30 or 6.  Isn't that way too early?  And no, I never have to wake her from a late catnap.  She always wakes herself up after 45 minutes for that one.  Of course, she often does at nighttime, too.  So if she ends up needing a nap at 4, do you think I should try to postpone that nap until closer to 5, or go ahead and put her down at 5:30/6?  Do I then need to worry that she's going to wake up really early?  I'd really like her to sleep 'til 7.

The reason that I wanted to cut out her nightly feed was just that I felt like she keeps waking up and instead of putting herself back to sleep thinking she needs to be fed first.  I don't feed her every time she wakes up, but since I feed her *sometimes* when she wakes up, I thought maybe I was confusing her.  Or does it not work that way?

Last night she woke up half an hour after I put her down, no big deal, then at about 10:30 for a dreamfeed.  Then she woke at 1am, and I gave her the pacifier, and then at 4am.  That would be okay, except of course that she woke up at 6:15 and thought she was up for the day.  Finally got her down, but it took forever and then she only slept for about another 15 minutes.

She doesn't seem to stir a little and then put herself back to sleep.  She either stays fully asleep, or she wakes up and works herself up very quickly to a full-out scream.  <sigh>  I've tried giving her time to see if she'll fall back asleep, but the moans she makes always escalate into crying.

The whole schedule thing is just such a pain.  She slept through the night when she was just one month old, needing no dream feed and just one nighttime feeding.  So wonderful.  Then I started EASY at three months and... WHAM.  There went my good sleeper.  I feel like I'm floundering, trying to figure out what I *was* doing that she liked.

With limiting time at the breast during the night... if she doesn't nurse for long (falls asleep at the breast, or just doesn't eat much for some reason), then she's up again in an hour.  When you start to limit time, how do you prevent her from just wanting to nurse more often?

[Layla]

You're right that it feels odd to have such a late evening nap.  But otherwise, if she ends up taking a 4pm nap, she'll be up at 4:45, and even with dinner she'll be in bed by 5:30 or 6.  Isn't that way too early?  And no, I never have to wake her from a late catnap.  She always wakes herself up after 45 minutes for that one.  Of course, she often does at nighttime, too.  So if she ends up needing a nap at 4, do you think I should try to postpone that nap until closer to 5, or go ahead and put her down at 5:30/6?  Do I then need to worry that she's going to wake up really early?  I'd really like her to sleep 'til 7.

If you can, try & stretch her to 4.30-5:15pm catnap and do bedtime at 6.30pm. I would rather an earlier bedtime than a later one & only 9.5hrs at night. The earlier bedtime seems counterproductive but she might actually surprise you and sleep better and still wake at her normal time.

Btw, the wake up time in this house changes all the time and it ranges from 5.30-6.30am (and sometimes 7am). I think anything after 6am is acceptable and there are of course some babies that will wake naturally at 5.30 as well. 6-6.30 is early but not ridiculously so. I think once her naps are more or less stabalised, the wake up time will as well.

The reason that I wanted to cut out her nightly feed was just that I felt like she keeps waking up and instead of putting herself back to sleep thinking she needs to be fed first.  I don't feed her every time she wakes up, but since I feed her *sometimes* when she wakes up, I thought maybe I was confusing her.  Or does it not work that way?

The problem with cutting all the nightfeeds now is that she might actually be hungry for some of them. So if its been 5hrs then I would feed, for all the other ones I would shh/pat. I don't think its confusing. She's waking in between her sleep cycles & still needs help getting back to sleep. Do you respond to her the same way all the time? Do you think she might be dependant on the paci??? Would she settle with just shh/pat?

The whole schedule thing is just such a pain.  She slept through the night when she was just one month old, needing no dream feed and just one nighttime feeding.  So wonderful.  Then I started EASY at three months and... WHAM.  There went my good sleeper.  I feel like I'm floundering, trying to figure out what I *was* doing that she liked.

Things will always be changing, trust me! There comes a time when they do better on a schedule so that they are not awake for too long, too short, etc... Its harder to convince a 5mo to go to sleep than a newborn. She'll get there.

With limiting time at the breast during the night... if she doesn't nurse for long (falls asleep at the breast, or just doesn't eat much for some reason), then she's up again in an hour.  When you start to limit time, how do you prevent her from just wanting to nurse more often?

Well if she's falling asleep at the breast rather than eating, thats an indication that she is using the breast as a prop. Exactly how long is it before her last feed that you feed her? At night I mean???

[SarahMksm]

Well, for instance, last night she had a dreamfeed at 10:30, took almost 4 ounces (!!!) and then I fed her at 4am.  She had one wakeup before that, at about 1am, but she went back to sleep pretty quickly with the pacifier and shh/pat.

I'm not sure if the pacifier is becoming a prop or not.  Generally after the dreamfeed I don't give it back to her, so when she wakes at 1am it's not that it's falling out or anything.  I give it to her then, but not after I do the night feeding unless she seems restless.  However, if it is a prop, I'm inclined to say it might be worth it, as long as she's only doing one pacifier-retrieval wake during the night, as she's close to the age when she'll be able to put it back in herself (she can do it during the daytime, although it takes her a while and she usually gets it upside down, but I swaddle her at night because she rubs at her face and eyes, which makes me nervous, and she also knocks the pacifier out), and also because the ease with which she goes down with it (as compared to before I started using it and had to shh/pat for hours) makes it worth the night wakeup.

*If* she'd continue what seems to be starting to be a pattern of one wakeup at 1am and a feed at 4am, I guess I could deal with that.  So you think I should just keep the 4am feed for now?   What about when she takes a miniscule dreamfeed and then wants to eat at 2am?  Not feed her?  Or feed her?

[Layla]

I think what happened last night is good! If she's taking in a feed at 10.30 & then in the early hrs of the moment, thats ideal for a 5mo (both of my girls did that at 5months as well). So all the other times, I would let her try & re-settle herself & if not, shh/pat her.

What about when she takes a miniscule dreamfeed and then wants to eat at 2am?  Not feed her?  Or feed her?

Has she done this before or are you talking in general for the future?

[SarahMksm]

She does this not infrequently.  She's a bit irregular about what she'll take during the dreamfeed, and sometimes when she hasn't taken much (and sometimes when she has!) she wakes in the early morning hours (1-3am) wanting food.

[Layla]

Thanks Stacy . I didn't even pick that up. The solids might have something to do with it as well.

[SarahMksm]

I definitely think that she's not taking enough milk during the day, but it's not because of the solids.  She wasn't nursing much even before I started them about a month ago.  The nights have actually gotten a bit better since I started solids, I think because there's some milk in the food.  Before that she was waking up every 1 1/2 to 2 hours all night long.  She just doesn't seem very interested in nursing.

[SarahMksm]

So if I did drop a feeding of solids, which should I drop?  Lunch?  If I usually do a veggie for lunch and cereal for dinner, should I start doing both for dinner?  As for getting more milk into her, other than cluster feeding all day I don't know how else to do it.

[SarahMksm]

I don't *think* the breastfeeding issue is a supply issue, because she doesn't empty the breast at a feeding.  I often still feel full after a feeding and so I pump to save the milk.  I don't think it's too much milk, either, but I think that would be much more likely to be the problem then too little.

I had actually sort of thought about getting rid of the dream feed, as I've heard that it can sometimes disturb the nighttime sleep, but she actually wakes for it (in fact, she often wakes every hour until I give her the dreamfeed, then she'll finally sleep for a few hours), so I didn't think I'd be able to drop it cold turkey.  But maybe I could gradually edge it earlier?

Last night I gave her a bottle when she woke in the middle of the night, instead of breastfeeding her.  It was a bit early, around 3am, but she was definitely hungry.  She took it and then fell right back asleep and slept 'til morning.  I think she takes more from the bottle than the breast.  I wonder, do you think I should try to feed her by the bottle during the night, to make sure she takes a full feeding?

As to your questions:  when she wakes at nigh, she starts with moans.  Then she works her way up to full-out screaming.  It usually takes about 5 minutes, although sometimes a bit longer, to go from first moan to first scream.  If I don't want to feed her I generally go to her, covering her eyes so that she can't see me (it wakes her up if she sees me), give her the pacifier, and shh/pat (sometimes I pat her chest if she's rolled to her back--I prop her on her side to start with, she sleeps better that way).  If necessary sometimes I fix her swaddle and turn her to her side, because depending how awake she is she sometimes flails and disturbs herself more that way.  *Generally* when she wakes during the night, she's lying there screaming but her eyes are still sleepy and often closed or half-closed.  If that's the case, she generally settles extremely easily, like in 30 seconds or a minute.  If she's wide awake, though, it takes considerably longer to get her to go back to sleep.  She's generally wide awake when she wants food, although food settles her quickly and she'll drink with eyes half-closed.  If I offer the breast she'll usually just take one side, nursing for 10-20 minutes, then spitting out the nipple, snuggling into my arm, and going to sleep.