Author Topic: Frequent wakings linked to food intake???  (Read 1261 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dorninger

  • New & Learning The Ropes
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 28
  • Location:
Frequent wakings linked to food intake???
« on: June 22, 2007, 05:08:44 am »
Hey there
So, we have really been working on our DS's many night wakings for more than a month now-doing BW techniques and really feeling stuck and desperate as progress was good at first but lately has been limited.  I've posted to the NW board and have been working on tweaking routines etc., but really am starting to think that the NW may ultimately be a problem of food intake and thought I'd see if you ladies had any ideas...
So, my DS is 7.5 months old (weights only 16 lbs but is growing steady)... We are pretty much on the 4 hour EASY routine with two 1.5 hour naps... bedtime is 6:30-7:00 and here is where our trouble begins... he wakes typically around 9-10ish (we try to wait to 10:30 before DF #1) and then he usually wakes around 1-2ish ( we try to wait to 2:30 for DF #2), and then again around 4ish (I try not to feed him for this one) and is up to the day around 6:00... this is the least amount that he wakes, he does have nights where he'll wake more often - up to 6-7 times (like last night ugg).
Before a month ago he was in my bed and bf whenever he woke up (typically every 45 min to 1 hour), and now he is in his own crib, putting himself to sleep and being quite brave about all the changes except these darn NWings... The thing is, when he wakes he almost never goes back to sleep until we feed him- but he does take in a good amount (4-5 oz) and I realize he is quite hungry... We have introduced solids only in the last 2 weeks or so...
So his eating routine:
7:00 BF (usually feeds very short for this one- 3-5 minutes at most)
11:00 BF (better- maybe 10 minutes at most)
11:45/12:15 solids (1-2 oz of mashed apples/pears/carrots/squash and prunes)
3:00 BF (variable 5-10 min)
Sometimes another solid meal here, sometimes not
5:00 BF (variable)
6:30 BF/ Bottle feed expressed breast milk- So we at some point got in the habit of giving a bottle here after the breast in order to make sure he was good and full for this before bed meal... of course, this has backfired and he basically will not take the boob anymore at this feeding and demands only the bottle.  Typically he'll drink 4-5 oz at this feed
10:30 DF#1- 3-5 oz
2:30 DF#2 3-5 oz
both dream feeds are bottle fed in bed with expressed breast milk
SO.....
As you can imagine I'm pumping all day to get the 10-15 oz's I need at night- I was reluctant to BF him at night for fear that he wouldn't take in enough to stay asleep and also to reduce the chance he'd fall asleep at my breast .... but now it's a pain to have to pump all the time, and I wonder if he is getting most of his milk at night now....
Sorry for the long and disorganized post, I'm so tired and desperate for help!!  Any ideas or suggestions would be so appreciated.
Thanks!!

Offline veggy

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 5
  • Location:
Re: Frequent wakings linked to food intake???
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2007, 08:01:30 am »
this routine sounds exactly like mine. she is not yet on solids (only 15 weeks old) but basically drinks nothing during the day. has tiny sips of either breast or expressed milk. she seems to have gone off my breasts so i think takes more from the bottle. but she really will have barely anything all day and wakes up at almost identical times as yours - 10, 2, 4, 6 or sometimes more. i am exhausted.
i put up a post earlier today, but have had no responses. i don't know what to do. i feel like i should 'starve' her out over night so that she feeds in the day again, but how? am scared as she is also v small and light (only gains 2oz a week) and if i take away her food at night she'll be massively undernourished and won't sleep anyway. really hard.
have you had any ideas?

Offline dorninger

  • New & Learning The Ropes
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 28
  • Location:
Re: Frequent wakings linked to food intake???
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2007, 18:59:56 pm »
No, I'm kind of feeling lost.... do i cut down on night feedings, do i increase them... do i stop giving a bottle, do i only give a bottle.... waiting for moderators input... hopefully they will help us both!

Offline Samuel's mum

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 764
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 10636
  • Emma in London, UK
  • Location: London, UK
Re: Frequent wakings linked to food intake???
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2007, 19:36:28 pm »
I will try and give some thoughts but please do remember we are moderators and although we do post regularly on the board our 'official' job is to organise and move posts and keep an eye on things. It's the general membership who really have to keep this site going by 'paying it forward'. I don't mean to sound like I'm complaining but obviously we're volunteers and I wouldn't want your comment to put other members off from posting. :)

This board is to focus breastfeeding troubles and support but sometimes there are times when an overlap may occur. I don't want to repeat too much of what has been said on the NW board. I will respect the fact you feel this board is a place you need to visit for now (but I'm being a bit naughty as it really isn't a clear breastfeeding issue).

You've obviously made an enormous amount of progress in a month - going from co-sleeping and using the breast to transtition between every sleep cycle TO only taking one night feed after the 10.30 dreamfeed. That is amazing progress and I hope you are taking a moment to pat yourself on the back. You've have basically cracked the 'big one' - a complete nursing to sleep prop so a big well done. You may feel like you are the only person to have a baby of your age not sleeping through but you are not alone. Just read our poll on night feeds on this board.

As this is a breastfeeding board I can't comment too much on your bottles due to lack of experience but I would say you certainly need to continue to decrease his nighttime calories. You talk about being worried about breastfeeding as he may not take in enough calories and the desire to reduce the chance he will fall asleep on the breast. But you WANT to reduce nighttime calories (so they can be substituted in the day) and at the moment he's asleep on the bottle anyway as you are doing 2 dreamfeeds. You've gone so far in conquering breast=prop. I think you have basically cracked it.

If he's taking 10oz in 2 feeds that's a LOT. Expected intake at this age is 20-30oz so he could literally be taking half. He's bound to be hungry for it.

I would suggest you begin by reducing those bottles (if you really don't want to use the breast). And start with the 2.30 feed - you are working on reducing it to 0oz. You can do that as quickly as you want. Then you need to monitor his solids intake closely to make sure he doesn't just take more solids to compensate. He needs to make it up by increasing milk in the day. Breastmilk is richer in fats and calories than almost all solid food and if he takes solids to compensate it might not help nighttime hunger.

Then you may still get nightwakings but he is at an age where you really can expect him to have longer intervals at night. Whatever you do at 4am (when you don't feed him) clearly works and it's these techniques you can use for earlier wakings. For the moment you could continue with the 10.30 dreamfeed and try and get the maximum in him that you can. But at 2.30am you should be aiming to eliminate the feed entirely. If we were accustomed to having a big meal in the middle of the night we would be genuinely hungry for it and by reducing it gradually it should be able to be eliminated painlessly.

I personally would suggest you do cut back on using bottles but obviously that's from my breastfeeding perspective. It's much easier to maintain a natural supply when your baby is feeding directly on the breast. I can't imagine how you squeeze in all those pumping sessions while still doing daytime feeds. But it may not be the best thing to do immediately. At the moment your supply overnight is likely to have diminished as it's not been having any nighttime demand.

Hope that helps a bit. Good Luck.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 19:40:16 pm by Samuel's mum »
<img src="http://b5.lilypie.com/vpkWp1.png" alt="Lilypie 5th Birthday Ticker" border="0"  />
<img src="http://b1.lilypie.com/iPGj0.png" alt="Lilypie 1st Birthday Ticker" border="0"  />

Offline dorninger

  • New & Learning The Ropes
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 28
  • Location:
Re: Frequent wakings linked to food intake???
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2007, 02:21:48 am »
Thank you very much for your excellent ideas!  I just read your post outloud to DH and he said "she should be naughty more often"! (with all due respect).  We both were so releived to have some ideas on where to go with these questions.  And also I want to apologize if my comment in the last post made you uncomforable... I certainly did not intend that whatsoever!! I welcome whole heartedly any advice or support anyone is kind enough to offer- I didn't mean to say I only want you or a particular persons perspective... I really was just feeling desperate for anybodys response.  Anyhow, thank you again for your great ideas.
So, to follow up- (and this is very bfing related)- my DS is really resisting more and more the boob.  I don't know if it's because he is getting use to the bottle or if he is so excited about solids, or if it's a supply issue-- but more and more he is feeding for a minute and then pulling off, whining, and aggressively getting back on (often with a gentle bite- ouch).  He use to just do this at night when he had figured out I would feed him with a bottle afterward, but now it's in the day too (and I only BF during the day)  I definitly don't want to get in a situation where he will only take the bottle- we only started the bottle as a way to fill him after his bf's at night and then we thought df's were suppose to be done with bottles so as not to wake the baby(?)... but now i'm thinking we should totally discontinue it day and night and maybe even stop solids until he is taking good feeds from the boob again.... Do you think this is a good idea?

Offline Samuel's mum

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 764
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 10636
  • Emma in London, UK
  • Location: London, UK
Re: Frequent wakings linked to food intake???
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2007, 06:59:49 am »
Quote (selected)
"she should be naughty more often"!

 :)

I think there's possibly a couple of things going on - he may be less interested in the breast during the day because he's taking so many calories at night and really not motivated to feed properly (so a touch of the reverse cycling that Veggy is experiencing but not to her extent). It might also be that your letdown has been affected by a recent pumping session (I'm not sure how you are scheduling them) or perhaps your supply has been affected by less baby stimulation in relation to pumping stimulation.
I don't think your amounts of solids are a particular concern with only one regular meal a day (sometimes two) - it sounds as though you are putting a very high priority on milk.
However much more likely is a flow confusion issue due to the use of bottles. It sounds as though he might be beginning the feed and perhaps being frustrated by his need to achieve a letdown himself - it's just such a different feeding experience from the bottle and takes so much more work.
Dreamfeeds can be done with bottles or breast. Sometimes bottles are 'easier' because the milk just flows in and obviously for a sleepy baby that is a bit more straightforward but plenty of people on this board have done the dreamfeed with a breast.

I think your idea of cutting back on the bottles - as you can imagine from what I said earlier - is a good one. Or in a little longer you could find yourself only using bottles and exclusive pumping is extraordinarily hardwork (and not always possible to maintain). I don't think you need to cut solids out entirely but you could perhaps stick with lunchtime (as you really need him to be motivated on the breast in the evening when your supply may have taken a dip and needs his stimulation).
I think you've got a couple of options:
1. have an interim period where you try and promote breastfeeding a bit more (use the breast at night, use breast compression to make the breast less hardwork, try and get a letdown started just before he goes on) while at the same time making bottles less appealing (less milk in them, no1 teat if you are not using it already, making the position so he's a bit more upright.) You could also try and get hold of a haberman feeder where he will have to do the work to control the sucking as he does at the breast (some other bottles claim similiar things). While you are in this interim period consider yourself to be 'preparing' for the return to breast so have a real focus on boosting your supply - drinking well, pumping directly after feeds (not to collect milk for bottles but to send signals to increase production) and pumping as a substitute when he does take a bottle so your supply gets a boost at the same time. You could also take a herbal galactalogue like fenugreek:
http://www.kellymom.com/herbal/milksupply/fenugreek.html
Then after a week or so of this aim to remove the bottle entirely for a while.
2. Or your other option is to put the bottles down now and have a 'breastfeeding honeymoon'. Don't attempt to do too much apart from nursing. Have lots of skin-to-skin time. It will be like a growth spurt for your supply and he will need to come off schedule and feed more frequently. Evenings are bound to be a bit tricky initially as he will be used to bottle and your supply will be at its lowest then - so again use breast compression, you may need to cluster feed, when both sides are finished return to the first side again (he will get a new letdown rich in hindmilk). If you choose this second option - stopping with the bottle suddenly you will see your supply bounce back more quickly but it might be slightly tougher in the short term.

I don't think you should stay away from the bottle forever - you want to make sure he doesn't go completely in the opposite direction and no longer take them. But when you do reintroduce them I would consider buying one of those flow controlled bottles that Tracy recommended (if you know he has a tendency to flow confusion).
« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 07:04:28 am by Samuel's mum »
<img src="http://b5.lilypie.com/vpkWp1.png" alt="Lilypie 5th Birthday Ticker" border="0"  />
<img src="http://b1.lilypie.com/iPGj0.png" alt="Lilypie 1st Birthday Ticker" border="0"  />

Offline dorninger

  • New & Learning The Ropes
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 28
  • Location:
Re: Frequent wakings linked to food intake???
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2007, 21:01:58 pm »
just wanted to say thank you... i'm slowly implementing your ideas, we'll see how it goes :)