Author Topic: Using solids to cut down from 15 BFs a day? Help!  (Read 1579 times)

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Offline Paddys mum

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Using solids to cut down from 15 BFs a day? Help!
« on: June 27, 2007, 08:28:46 am »
My 6 month old LO (or not-so-little LO) is currently having 6-7 BFs during the day and about 8 or 9 BFs during the night. He slowed down when we started solids (at 5.5 mths), but I think he's had another growth spurt and is back up hungry every hour and a half at least. He's currently having three "meals" of about 1-2 tsps a day but we're having trouble finding foods that don't constipate him (although having read the laxative thread, I've got a few ideas for tomorrow!). I don't want to increase the solids too much in case I upset his tummy even more, but I'm finding it hard to carry on with the continual BFing. (BTW, they are full feeds, both sides, if I stretch it out longer then the nights become even worse, I'm on maxolon and fenugreek just in case my supply needs boosting, and he hates formula!!)

Not sure if anybody can help, but does anybody have any tips for supplementing with solids? Any good foods to try, or foods to avoid? Should I be feeding him more in the three feeds (my GP said to just feed him until he stopped himself, but he'd just keep going forever and as I said earlier, I'm scared it will end up with more tummyache), or should I feed him more frequently? Any similar experiences?

Many thanks!!
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Offline Samuel's mum

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Re: Using solids to cut down from 15 BFs a day? Help!
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2007, 08:40:31 am »
Have you ever spoke to a breastfeeding counsellor or lactation consultant? I'm wondering whether it might be worth getting your latch checked out just to check he's feeding as efficiently as he can be.

How is his weight gain?

At night I'm wondering whether he might be using the breast to transition between sleep cycles (it sounds like every sleep cycle) - are the feeds shorter at night than they are during the day? Have you ever tried to settle him without feed? It might be that he has a nursing to sleep association i.e. he hasn't learnt to fall asleep without the breast and needs it to fall into a new sleep when he rouses in between sleep cycles.

Rather than increase number of meals - I would look first at your breastfeeding management. It might be because he is feeding so frequently he is taking in a relatively high proportion of foremilk and that is why he is becoming hungry again so quickly. Is he quite gassy?

It sounds as though your doctor is supportive but I would definitely have a chat with a lactation consultant and see if you can brainstorm some ideas.

Sorry I know I'm not really answering your question but I tend to look at the breastfeeding first - it is so important that milk is 'right' at this age.
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Offline Elvira

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Re: Using solids to cut down from 15 BFs a day? Help!
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2007, 13:17:25 pm »
Well, I can understand you Samuel,s mum and the number of feeds is exxagerated, but you are asking a very pertinent question (weight gain).  The fact is that some babies do need more calories and nutrients that breast alone can give them, at about 6 months.  One nephew of mine was like that and you can believe that he was extremely efficient emptying my sister,s breath (they looked like deflated balloons when he was finished! but that did not happen to me because have large breasts, my sister´s are naturally small and only big when full of milk so it was very visible in her case) and was gaining weight (and height) at 98 percentile...so he just needed more fuel.  In older times, mothers used to chew on some bread or other food and offer it to their hungry children whilst still nursing...


To Paddy,s mum (beautiful boy you have), I think the aim when you go on solids is to achieve less feeds as they also take longer to digest than milk.  You have mentioned that every bf is a full one (two breasts), it would be important to know if they are empty or  not after the feed and how long it takes.  You also mention that you do not want to cause him more pain, which means there,s pain żalways, even before starting solids, or only after starting solids? 

Your baby is 6 months already, apart from cereal he can have fruit which would help with constipation.  I have posted elsewhere that spanish doctors recommend a puree made with half an apple, half a pear, half a (ripe) banana and orange juice, or milk (your own expressed milk).  Not the juice and milk at the same time, the juice is acid and curdles milk.   Orange is laxative, but may be too acidic for small babies and cause problems if he has reflux problems.   Pears are also laxative. Rice is VERY astringent, and it is the cereal normally added to avoid gluten, perhaps you should try corn for a cereal... and offer water in a spoon after the cereal (it is easier in a bottle, but may interfere with bf).

The thing is, honestly, that 2/3 teaspoons will NOT take his hunger away, it is too small a quantity for that, and I would think too small to cause constipation.  If you try a milk-cornbased cereal, try half a cup at least to begin with.  The fact that he wants to eat more and you do not dare to give him more show that he IS hungry.  Remember that too little food can constipate you as well (even as an adult, if you have ever been on a restrictive diet you will know that this happens), anyway fruit should counter the effects of rice.   I also think you could add veggies now, again in spain we use potato, leeks (laxative), onion, tomato and carrot boiled together and pureed, no salt added but a teaspoon of olive oil (which also helps constipation), and if that goes well add meat, chicken or veal.   A word of warning here: in my case, my daughter always got constipated when I gave her a prepared food - the typical purees that you buy ready made - and NEVER got constipated when I prepared the pureé myself, and that was applicable both to fruit and to veggies+meat prepared food.  I used to buy the prepared ones only when travelling, but gave up on that and carried in a jar (using the ones that had bought) my own prepared food, going to the length of asking in hotels if they would let me cook her veggies (twice in her first year) and going only to the hotel that would let me. 

The tummy upset, apart from constipation, involves a lot of gas?  Reflux?  It comes immediately after a meal, half an hour afterwards, two hours afterwards?   Do follow Samuel,s mum advice as the nightly feeds do not make a lot of sense, but honestly...2/3 teaspoons are not going to make a big difference in his hunger. 



Offline Erin M

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Re: Using solids to cut down from 15 BFs a day? Help!
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2007, 15:55:05 pm »
Wow, you sound like you're having some rough nights.  Just wanted to echo what Emma said -- the issue may be that he's having trouble transitioning between his sleep cycles at night -- look at how he's nursing during those nws -- I can tell the difference with my LO between when she's hungry and when she's just looking to get back to sleep.  I would definitely encourage you to post on nightwakings or props where I'm sure you'll get some helpful advice on how to work on the nights. 

Offline Paddys mum

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Re: Using solids to cut down from 15 BFs a day? Help!
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2007, 23:22:29 pm »
Thanks everyone. I have talked to a couple of lactation consultants about it - and the advice changes! But, because he's such a big kid (10.2kgs or 22lbs 7ozs) and still gaining a lot of weight (150-200g or 7ozs a week), they all seem to agree that my overall supply is fine and that he's not snacking and just getting foremilk. I often wonder about whether or not he has a sleep association, because in order to get him to settle, I often have to feed for a long time (at night it can be two hours at the breast) - and wonder if he's settling because of the association (bad) or because he is finally satiated (good). The thing that keeps me going is that there are times when he wakes up in the middle of a nap or the middle of the night and calls out, but then settles himself back to sleep again. He also often just gets drowsy on the feed and is still a little bit awake when I put him to bed, or if everything is going just right and he's not hungry and not got a tummyache (and the moon is in the right phase  :)) then he settles himself to sleep as easily as he used to. I've been hoping (perhaps wrongly!) that this means that it's more likely to be food-associated than association-associated.

After the 3 and 4 mth growth spurt, I used the BW technique of giving less food at night and building it up during the day, and that helped get rid of the nightwakings then - but it's not working now - he just doesn't resettle unless he's had enough food (I also always try and resettle him first without food as occasionally it is wind or constipation-uncomfortableness that wakes him up). So I don't think that he's using me as a prop at night - he definitely seems hungry. Then again, I'm now so confused and doubting everything I do, that perhaps I've got it all wrong!

It could well be the case that I don't have enough breast "storage" capacity to keep him going after each feed, so perhaps I'll talk to a lactation consultant about that option and what I can do about it. The good news is that yesterday he only had 11 feeds, so perhaps we're over the growth spurt! And maybe it's just something I have to deal with this year until he doesn't need as much breastmilk...

Thanks again.

Offline Elvira

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Re: Using solids to cut down from 15 BFs a day? Help!
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2007, 14:30:47 pm »
You are very welcome, Paddys mother.  Because every child is unique, I know that some do need more calories and at the rate your child is gaining weight with - basically - your milk only, I would think he has no troubles taking your milk.  It is a fact - demonstrated fact as opposed to theory - that children grow in spurts, not steadily over a long period of time, and that at times are hungrier.   If I have learnt something over the years (I,m more grandmothers age than mothers age) it is not to be a fundamentalist of anything, but try to hear your deep instinct when you react to your own baby.  The night pattern does look strange, but there,s a thread about sleep problems as well.

However, if you feel baby is hungry, it is very likely to be the truth.  And when I tell you that two/three teaspoons are not enough (for hunger or nutrition), I maintain it. It is a fact.   If half a cup is too much or too little (considering most is milk) is open to the following consideration:

3 teaspoons are 15 cc, 2 are 10 cc (cubic centimeters).  Or 1.5 ounces, 1 ounce (fluid ounce).  Just a ship in a regular small glass (the ones used for wine). 
One cup is half a pint, or 236 cc.  A bit more than a glass (the regular ones used for water or milk). 
Half a cup is 116 cc.

Your child, when mixing solids and milk will need as a minimum 500 ccs of milk, that is two full cups and it will not hurt if he takes a bit more.

A half a cup of cereal mixture will contain mostly milk, as you wont need more than two teaspoons of cereal, perhaps a bit more, to make a mushy mixture.  This is not, in any way, an exxageration.  Besides, I have not recommended that anyone forces a baby to "finish up" (anything offered), but to let him he is will willing and eager.

I do not know of any expert who discourages the use of cereals, or carbs in general and yet I know many who forbid going overboard on protein and that is basically what milk is.  Cereals are a wonderful source of fiber, calories and complex sugars  that your body must proccess and that your body needs as an adult and even more as a growing child.  They are also a good source of b-vitamin, e-vitamin, iron and calcium and contain 6/12% protein.

 Now, milk is a very complete food, it contains enough  of almost everything, except iron and C vitamin.  It is not so brilliant on B or E, either.  But mother,s milk will contain more of these nutrients if she eats enough veggies and fruit.   

One of the reasons to start solid foods at 6 months is to provide for more iron and C vitamin, in a natural way and not thru medication.  Number one, for reasons that are not understood or identified in research, vitamins taken on their original food form work more efficiently than supplements.  Number two, giving vitamins or iron as medication can have side effects, and a notorious one of iron is constipation.

Industrial cereals made for children (not the ones made specifically for babies, which are controlled in more countries), l contain added sugar and sodium, added vitamins (to compensate for the ones lost in the overprocessing) and are not to be recommended for anyone.  Natural wheat, corn or oats are a very different matter and should form part of our diet (for adults or grown children, preferably whole grain). 

What one ought to aim for is the maximum diversity of food, and the failure of our societies is normally eating too much meat, milk products and potatoes, rice and bread as sole staples of a diet (an adult diet, I,m talking about), together with the use of industrially prepared food and soft drinks and sodas.   Even when one takes veggies, one tends to take only two/four kinds depending on cultural factors.  We tend to eat a lot of  peppers and tomatoes in Spain, together with marrow (zuchini) and aubergine (eggplant)  like in Italy or France.   Others tend to go heavy in mushrooms and aspargus or cabbage.... but miss the glorious variety of the whole vegetable range, from artichokes to beets, aspargus to brocoli, eggplant to watercress....(rarely used in Spain and a wonderful green to add to babies purees). 

In general, we take too MUCH fat and PROTEIN, not too much complex carbs.  And we are not getting any slimmer or healthier by eating that way.  Actually, spanish doctors say not to give more than a protein meal a day to small children, as that together with the milk is more than ample.  And really, in this I do know what I am talking about!






Offline Samuel's mum

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Re: Using solids to cut down from 15 BFs a day? Help!
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2007, 16:22:33 pm »
The message we are getting in the UK is that milk is the primary source of the nutrition for the first 12 months and it's imperative that milk is emphasised and a baby not take excessive quantities of less nutritional foods. We are told of the primary importance of the good fats in milk for baby's brain development and that 'too much fat' is not a focus we should be emphasising when it comes to the consideration of baby milk.
I do think the appeal of rice cereal (which seems to be emphasised for baby's first food) is waning - especially in the breastfeeding community as it is such a bland first food and bf babies tend to have more developed palates (as breastmilk has so much variety of flavour).

Paddys mom - We know that breast storage capacity does have a part of play in feeding intervals (although not overall milk supply in 24hr period). Research by Dr Hartmann in Australia has taught us recently that there is MUCH greater variation in breast storage capacity and the internal structure of the breast than we had previously suspected. It might be that your frequent feeding is affected by a storage capacity issue but if that was to be the case there's not a lot that physically can be done. However feeding intervals are also affected by previous habits and patterns. Breasts are like mini-computers that learn what is expected of them and produce accordingly (and babies' tummies can also be accustomed to a more frequent feeding pattern).  If you haven't spoken at an LC recently I would suggest another chat to talk through your options.

At night 2 hours at the breast is an extraordinarily long feed - I do think you have to consider whether there is a comfort factor going on. I'm not saying he's not hungry at night - if he's used to taking in so many calories overnight he almost certainly will be - but just that so many night feeds isn't something you have to assume is inevitable. Physically, you need to be getting more sleep at nights apart from anything.

I'm not saying don't increase solids, you probably do need to - but I would do gradually and mindfully and monitor his milk intake as you go. And I would chat again to an LC if you can. If you know constipation is a problem I would suggest to find alternatives to rice cereal.
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Offline Elvira

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Re: Using solids to cut down from 15 BFs a day? Help!
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2007, 12:41:53 pm »
Stacy, I am from Spain and here they would also strongly discourage to give prepared cereals (other than the ones specifically for babies), like corn flakes, cheerios, etc.  But it is not for the cereal as such, but for added things. Here they do not recommend starting on anything before 6 months, and they take it easy the first couple of months; actually the strongly recomend (now, not 20 years ago) breastfeeding...even the first years, doctors do not think it is "abnormal" to be breastfeeding past the first year.   

I studied medicine, not nutrition, as in those years (70,s) official medical schools paid scant attention to nutrition, here and in the US (where I,ve lived), but I became passionate in nutrition and its importance on your health.  After all, it seems obvious that what you eat has to be important, so I,ve been following research closely.  Of course whole grain is the better option, but is hard to digest for babies.  When I say cereals, remember I,m not thinking cheerios. I am thinking bread, and pasta and rice to name but three staples of humanity, however I would be interested in the latest research, and will look for it.  Certainly I feel there,s an abuse of commercial cereals, but natural oats porridge for instance is different.

You are very right  that cultural factors blind you; I am reading here of how many mums feed avocado to their babies and I have to think "now, why I never thought of that?"  It is not forbidden, it is a very obvious choice for a baby, and yet I never offered it to my daughter although it was easily available in shops.  Simply because it is not traditional in Spain, that is why.   However, natural cereals are an asset specially at breakfast when glucose is needed most.  What I have is bread, not your soft one but the crusty one, wholegrain, toasted and with olive oil (for breakfast).  But it is "cereal".

Samuel,s mum, I also find that there are too many feeds during the night for Paddy and as a matter of fact when I thought that my daughter would sleep better because she was having solids (doctor thought that too), I was sorely dissapointed because she continued waking up at midnight, 3 am and 6 am (went to sleep afterwards till 0900).  Until one day, she stopped doing it, so it was not merely hunger.  Must say I did not deny the breast, she needed it for whatever reason.  However that was  every 3 hours, and it looks to me that Paddy,s Mum nights are a nightmare!


Offline Elvira

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Re: Using solids to cut down from 15 BFs a day? Help!
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2007, 13:40:25 pm »
Stacy, looked through Canada official sites (Dieticians and Health), and NIH of US (Medline) for reccomendations, and saw not so very different from Spanish ones: do not add whole cow,s milk until a year of age because it causes low blood counts, add yogurt and cheese 8-9 months (do not say why, spanish say fermented milk can cross intestine and cause allergies), etc with the big exception that they recomend 4-6 months to start solids, whereas here we say not before 6 months.

But I found a link that supports your view - not of no cereals, but of later introductions of cereals - and because it is interesting I paste it here:

http://www.infactcanada.ca/complementary_feeding.htm

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Re: Using solids to cut down from 15 BFs a day? Help!
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2007, 16:05:57 pm »
Well, Stacy, I feel very comfortable with the kind of food mentioned in the link I pasted,  and the scheduling. Actually, my conviction is in favour of "natural food" as opposed to "industrial food" (mainly because of all these additives, etc), but you are right: children one year of age, even 10 months, are very different to babies 6 months old!  Have a nice week-end!