sleep going down the tubes; very cranky babies

[jmoran544]

In the  last week my ds and dd (10 month old twins, 8 months adjusted) have not been napping very well, and are getting crankier by the day. This morning they awoke (they sleep in the same room at night) at 5:30am. It is now 7:30am and I had to put them back to bed because they were yawning and rubbing eyes and crying. They cried for a few minutes but now they are asleep. About 4 days ago they started taking only 40 minute naps in the pm.  They have slept well during their morning naps, usually getting about 1:30, but their afternoons have been very short, and they wake up crying.
Are they not getting enough sleep at night? Could this be causing overtired babies?
5:30-6:15 wake
6:30 6 oz formula
8:00 cereal and fruit
8:30/9:00 nap  (I've been putting them down after three hours wake time)
10:30 4-6 oz formula
12:15 lunch
1:30/1:45  (I recently switched from putting them down at 1:15 to 1:30. So far I have not had much success getting them to nap for long stretches)
5:30 dinner
6:45 bedtime bottle- 6 oz
7-7:15 bed

[jmoran544]

Can someone reply?

[lawnseed]

how long did their afternoon naps used to be?

[jmoran544]

Thank you for responding. Their pm naps used to be 1:30-2 hrs.

[lawnseed]

wow that is a big difference:(

it seems like ones affecting the other which is affecting the other!! if it was the nap which went first, then that may be the culprit. either way, it may be you need to work on extending both naps and mornings.

if they wake up crying from a previously long nap it sounds like they aren't transitioning into deep sleep again. have you met the 45 minute nap monster before?! it can sometimes mean (especially if they've not done it before) that they've been put to bed slightly over-tired. are you watching their tired signs or watching the clock? on some days 3 hours may be too long, on others just fine. it could also be that their sleep is disturbed - perhaps by each other?! well done for doing so well with twins!!

but it does also feel like 530 is too early for morning (as i'm sure you'll agree!) have they ever drifted back off to sleep again if you leave them? or do you always have to go in?

as i don't have an 8-10 month old myself, i'm not sure what the average day's routine is like- have a look at some EASY routines and see how yours compares. it may be that because of their early starts their A time is too long, resulting in over-tired shortened pm naps.

hope some of this makes sense - I'm a bit of a rambler!

if you do have to work on extending their sleep it would be with pick-up, put-down. have you done this before?

sorry you had to wait for response!!

let me know your thoughts. (may not be on til tomorrow eve, my laptop dead, using DH's1!)

Lorna x

[malialeanne]

Hi there. It sounds like the 2-1 nap switch issues that many babies encounter around 10 months. Some babes can start having problems related to the switch as early as 8 months. There is a ton of great info on the 2-1 switch thread here: https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=59266.0. And there's FAQ post here.

Also, I think a bedtime after 7 p.m. is on the late side for a 5:30 a.m. wakeup. I would aim 6-6:30. 30 extra minutes of sleep is a lot for a baby and can make a difference in their overall sleep.

HTH!
Malia

[malialeanne]

Whoops forgot to give the link to the FAQ: https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=95670.0

[lawnseed]

there you go - someone who knows the stage:)

[jmoran544]

Thank you, everyone, for your insights and advice. I am trying to sort it all out. It seems I have to do the following:

Put the kiddos to bed earlier in the evening, closer to 6:30 rather than 7:00.

Try to stretch wake time to 3 hours in the am, and 3.5 hours midday and in the pm, but only if they are not showing signs of being tired.

Can I ask more questions?

*What happens if they are tired 2.5 hours after waking? Do I put them down for a nap or stretch a little more. Because it would seem that if I put them down for a nap earlier they would wake earlier, thereby leaving too much wake time after the 2nd nap and before bed.

*I don't like the concept of PU/PD. Is that wrong? It is very difficult to do that when there are two babies to deal with. Is there something else? Does W2S work for naps?

*If I put them down to bed at night around 6:30, and they are waking up between 5:30 and 6am, how long will this last? When can we put them down at 7 and later and expect them to sleep twelve hours? I assume that at age three we won't be putting them down for bed at 6:30.

[jmoran544]

A couple more things... They sleep in separate rooms for naps, my dd in her crib in the twins' room, and my ds in our bedroom in a bassinet. When they wake early in the morning one twin wakes the other. They usually wake up and babble happily for at least twenty minutes. We pray for longer : )   They used to be able to fall back to sleep if they woke as early as 5:30, but not anymore. We just hope they won't start crying, so they can hang out in there a little longer.

I have tried PU/PD before, but the kiddos only seemed to get more hysterical and extremely hot and sweaty. And I can't see a way to do it with twins- in fact I believe it is impossible if I were to do it right. Is there another option?

[malialeanne]

*What happens if they are tired 2.5 hours after waking? Do I put them down for a nap or stretch a little more. Because it would seem that if I put them down for a nap earlier they would wake earlier, thereby leaving too much wake time after the 2nd nap and before bed.

I have had this problem while trying to transition to from three naps to two. I ran into problems trying to keep dd up when she really needed to nap, so I don't really recommend that (although many times she's just fussy and bored and she gets a second wind when we change activities). What I did was just try for a mini catnap of 15-20 minutes or so in between nap two and bedtime.

*I don't like the concept of PU/PD. Is that wrong? It is very difficult to do that when there are two babies to deal with. Is there something else? Does W2S work for naps?

I don't know HOW PU/PD would work for twins! LOL. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to do it, you have to do what feels right for you. Quite honestly PU/PD never worked as a nap extension tool for us--got dd WAY too stimulated to go back down. W2S can work well for naps. It can be tricky to get the timing right but I know lots of BW moms have had success. Some go in 20 minutes into the nap, some do 30. It's trial and error.

*If I put them down to bed at night around 6:30, and they are waking up between 5:30 and 6am, how long will this last? When can we put them down at 7 and later and expect them to sleep twelve hours? I assume that at age three we won't be putting them down for bed at 6:30.

When they can comfortably be awake longer their bedtime might naturally move a bit later. As they move to one nap it's generally a longer nap toward the middle of the day, then as they move into toddlerhood it's an afternoon nap. But, many experts do recommend that babies, toddlers and young children get 11-12 hours a night until at least age 3, so bedtime probably won't be too much later than 7 unless you are lucky and have two late risers on your hands.

[jmoran544]

Thank you. Today I will try going in the pm and doing W2S. And a mini catnap might work.

This morning they woke at 5:30 and played for 15 minutes. Then they started crying their heads off until we got them up. Dh and I were very cranky with each other. Of course, they have consistently slept through the night for the last 4-5 nights or so, with occasionally cry-outs which didn't last more than a minute, so I'm trying to appreciate that. I just feel so bad for them that they are so overtired. It must not be much fun.

[jmoran544]

OK, so dh and I talked and we are going to try to put the kiddos to bed by 6:30pm, in hopes that they will sleep better and longer, even if they still get up at 5:30am. It is going to be difficult for dh, because he usually gets home from work at 6:00. He won't be able to see them for very long.

I'm hoping that they will eventually wake up later, so we can push bedtime slowly back toward 7:00. I want to be a family again!- not a sleep scientist.

If they sleep from 6:30pm to 5:30/6am, then what will our day look like? Do we need to shift feeds? Do I need to wake them early from am nap? When is the best time to start thinking about the pm nap?

Currently:

5:30-6 wake
6:30 6 oz bottle
8:00 cereal and fruit
8:30/9 nap (this depends on when they get up; I've been putting them down 3 hrs after wake up)   about 1.5 hrs
10:30 4 oz bottle
12:15 lunch
1:15/1:30 nap (if they woke up at 10, I put them down at 1:15; any later it's 1:30, unless they are really tired)
THIS IS WHERE THEY TROUBLE SEEMS TO BEGIN
3:00 wake up from nap, unless they didn't make it through the first 40 minutes, which has been the case this week and often since we dropped the catnap
3:30 6 oz bottle
5:00 dinner (just switched this from 5:30)
6:00 baths  (just switched from 6:30)
6:30 bedtime bottle (just switched from 6:45)
6:45 bed (I recently pushed this up from 7:00)

[lawnseed]

sorry you've had no replies in a bit:( it's a busy site. how's it been going? (my computer's not well btw, so i'll read when i can!!) are you getting to grips with it? it can be very frustrating - i'm a bit like you with my youngest - mornings i can handle, but we seem to hobble somewhat towards bedtime! if it's any consolation, i had 530 wakings with dd1 around this age and they did resolve - although i'm not sure why!!! maybe it was when she went to one nap - her am nap started getting shorter, transition times aren't easy. anyway - how's it going?

L