anyone want to chat about the 2-1 nap switch , thread#2

[samijoe]

Just wanted to respond quickly to Brenda...Rocco's mom.

So sorry you are feeling like a terrible mommy....but like the others have said, this transition is SUCKY and TERRIBLE and we all HATE it!!  LOL   You are just going to have to hang in there and help him the best way you can.

It seems like the 30min AM nap is not working for you anymore....so time to try something new.  I would give him only a 20min nap and i would wait to do it later as well.  While you are trying to fit these two naps in, i would seriously consider waking him everyday at 7am...and NOT letting him sleep till 730am (eventhough i know its soooo nice).  Waking him at 7 will give him the space in his day to fit both naps in until he needs only the one nap.

So maybe:

7 wake
11-1120  nap 1 (only 20min)
2hr A time
120-320  nap 2 (at most 2hrs)
in bed at 7pm...
hopefully asleep by 730.


Most of us use this formula for new A times....

10min nap is 1hr A time roughly following.
15min nap is 1.5hr A time following
20min nap is 2hr A time following
30min nap is 3hr A time following

Please note this is only a guideline...but these times are fairly safe for MOST lo's.

When you get to the one nap...and it seems to conflict with lunch etc....most of us split the lunch and make it a big snack previous to nap and a bigger lunch after...or vice versa.

I would try this routine and see how it goes.  Be prepared that he WON"T like to be woken at the 20min mark....and also expect this to take a few days to take hold.


Hang in there.  We are all here for each other.

sami

[MomofRocco]

Sami ~ Thank you so much for the great advice.  I am going to start today.  Luckily my husband has a four day weekend... so he will be a great support for when I am ready to start banging my head off the wall.  Anyway, what do you suggest I do here.... Rocco never goes right to sleep.. he sits in there and plays, talks, sings... whatever.  Sometimes up to an hour or more before falling asleep.  Partly, I think, because he may not be tired enough, or OT... but regardless.. he does it.  SO my fear will be that he will play in there until after 2 before even falling asleep.  So... do I hope that he falls asleep quickly... or do I put him in there a bit earlier to have a cushion for in case he wants to play.  I shouldn't say play....  I have a video monitor... and I am able to watch him at times... and it seems like that is just his way of soothing hismelf.  I don't know though.... lol, which is why I am seeking your advice.  So, I appreciate your advice.... and I look forward to hearing back from you!!!!!  THANK YOU!!!

Brenda

[samijoe]

Definitely start your winddown maybe 15minutes before the desired nap time.  Have him in the crib to 'play' it out and hopefully he'll sleep at the time we want.

More A time should make him tired enough to go right to sleep.  He isn't playing because he wants to play before sleep, he plays because it is not time to sleep.

Putting him in there a few minutes early won't hurt.....if anything, he'll only play for a few mins and then fall asleep.

All you can do is try it and see what happens.


Also, if you think he is dying after that 20minute nap, it is possible he won't hold for 2hrs.  So, you might need to make a call on whether leaving him the full 2hrs will make him ot.

Good luck.
Glad your hubby is there to support you!


sami

[MomofRocco]

Thanks so much Sami.  Well, he's in his crib now... it's 1030.  He seemed pretty tired.  So we'll see.  I will keep you posted on how the days goes....  and I am sure I will be back with more questions!!    My fingers are crossed.  Talkt to you soon.

Brenda 

[traineeparent]

Hi NewMum

Thanks for the reply.  It's so unbelievably frustrating isn't it!!  Just when you think it can't get any worse.

I've been staying in the room for her to go to sleep at nap and nighttime for the last few weeks (juist avoiding SA issue), and generally she goes to sleep very fast - but then she's so tired.   I rub her back if she's restless. I wouldn't mind putting a hand on her so much.... but feeding is really scaring me!

Does anyone else have guidelines for what ‘A’ time should be after a one nap day?  She wakes at 7, asleep about 11:45 or 12. 

Her nap has been 1:25, 1:40, 2 hrs lately.

I’m wondering if I’m putting her down at bedtime too early or too late?  She's leaping around and although looks tired, rubs her eyes, she cries if put in cot.

Also – if 1:15 hr means they’re overtired, what’s the cut-off point when it means they’re not overtired?  Is any nap length considered undertired? 

I'd be really grateful for any suggestions.    (See my prev post page 20).

[MommaHolmes]

I don't think there's an easy recipe for saying x length nap means OT, y length nap means UT - you just have to try and work it out for your own child cos I think they're all different. For our LO, a nap of 1hr30 or more is a 'good' nap, anything less and he is likely to be struggling by bedtime.

Similarly with working out how long A time should be after nap on a 1 nap day. Most people agree that anything more than 5.5 hrs is too much. For us, more than 4 hours before bed can lead to OT (usually hyperactivity!), so we've had to do a longer morning to make that work. If you aim to have your LO in bed 12 hours after waking, hopefully they should then be asleep 12.5 hrs after waking, leaving room for an 11.5 hr night.

At the end of the day, you just have to try a few things to see what works for your LO. The only thing I would say is that you need to give each strategy a few days to see how it settles down - a bad first day doesn't necessarily mean that it's not the right one!

[MomofRocco]

Sami ~ Ugh, I know everyday won't be perfect... but it just seems like we never have two good days in a row.  Yesterday was PERFECT!!!!  20 minute morning nap from 1040-11... then back down at 1245 asleep by 130.  Slept until 340!!!!!!!!!  But then it took him a LONG time to fall asleep for bed.  I was kinda caught off guard.  He was in there for over an hour before he fell asleep around 830.  Any idea why that may be?  He was awake when I got up at 7, so I am not sure what time he was up.  Certainly not too early....  then he was in bed at 1015 asleep at 1055, up at 1115.  We had lunch and he was back in his bed at 1... played until almost 2 before falling asleep.  And he was up at 3 with a poopy diaper, ugh.  So....  I am hoping that days will be more like yesterday and not today.  Do you see any flags that may indicate a tweak in his routine?  One thing that Rocco does when he plays is...  he has 4 little 11 x 11 inch blankets and one large blanket in there and he still takes a paci to sleep.... I have got into the habit of putting a few extras in there... so when he's "playing" sometimes he drops ALL of that out of the crib...  I usually go in and get it, but it gets pretty ridiculous sometimes.  But I think if he's tired enough and not OT, then he won't play like that.  Any insight there?  When are babies ok with a big blanket and a pillow?  I look forward to hearing all of your insight!!!!  Thanks in advance!!!!

Brenda

[Ydnic]

Well we've started a routine of a few consecutive 1 nap days, which he seems to nap really well with, but then back to 1 or 2 days of 2 naps.  He just can't quite do the 5 hour stretch every day.  But I feel like we're on the right track.

Brenda, I don't have any words of wisdom as far as tweaking the routine.  Sometimes ds will go to sleep with a toy cup in his hand, and he usually takes off his socks and throws them onto the floor before going to sleep, lol.  Guess its part of his winddown?  I dunno.

Cindy

[NiknLily]

Brenda

All I can say is hang in there things will start to settle down eventually.  We had 2 months of bad nap days, 2 nap days, 1 nap days, no nap days, NW's, EW's the lot Lily was OT to hell and back before I finally dropped the 2 naps completely and went for just 1 nap.  In hindsight I wish I had just pushed the am nap forward until it fell where I wanted it as Tracy describes doing in her books.  But I was too scared to drop to 1 nap too quickly and so hung onto it for as long as possible, which is what I think most of us end up doing.  For some this works just fine and for others it just causes mayhem as neither you nor your LO know if your on your head or your backside.  All I can say is give every new routine tryout a good 3 days to see if its working if not try something else.
HTH
Oh yes something else I've learnt.  When LO's play in the crib before sleeping it is possible that it will hinder them going to sleep.  Lily can play herself into OT then not sleep as a result.  So if I put her down too soon the likely outcome is she wont get to sleep just like if I put her down too late she wont sleep either 

[MomofRocco]

Thanks for the advice.... can you elaborate a bit more on how Tracy says to do it in her books.  I have been meaning to re-read the BW for Toddlers... but I am a full time student as well as a SAHM, so my days are devoted to Rocco and the second he goes to bed, my head is in the books.  Unfortunately, it's not the books I want my head to be in!!!!!!!!  My current class is Finance 404.... trust me, I would give anything to have enough time to read anything else!!! 

Thanks, Brenda 

[NiknLily]

This is from BWSAYP

By making the morning nap progressively later, you can eventually make it disappear! The suggested time table below assumes that your child is at least 1yr old and normally naps at 9.30am The times might vary, depending on your child, but the principles of gradual transition remain the same.

Days 1-3: Put him down 15-30Min's later for morning nap - 9.45-10

Days 4-6: If possible, put him down 30Min's later at 10.15-10.30, give a snack at around 9-9.30.  He'll sleep for 2-2.5hrs and have lunch at around 1.

Days 7 to however long it takes: Every 3 days make the nap later and later.  He might have a morning snack at around 10-1.30, go down at 11.30, and wake for his lunch at around 2.  You might have a few rough afternoons.

The Goal: Eventually he'll be able to stay up till noon, have lunch, play a bit and then take 1 deliciously long afternoon nap.  He might have some days when he just cant make it without a short morning nap.  Go with the flow but never let him sleep longer than 1hr.

My concern with this was that I couldn't tell what was happening to the afternoon nap while all this was going on as she doesn't say.  But I assume that you would keep offering an afternoon nap but cutting it short to maintain bedtime until you run out of hours in the day, hopefully by this point the morning nap would be late enough to not need the catnap later anyway, at this point you may also have to do a few early nights to prevent them getting OT.

Lily was pushing her am nap on her own before she started to drop it and we had run out of hours in the day to fit both naps in with her long A times.  This is where I went wrong if I had pushed the am nap forward and cut the pm nap in length I think she would of got through this easier than she did.

Thats just my opinion and hindsight is a wonderful thing 

[MomofRocco]

Hmmmm... interesting!!!  So, we are beginning to have eraly wakeups too   Not sure what is going on....  but I used to have to peel him off the mattress at 730 and now he's up before 630.  Which does not help the 2-1 transition at all... ugh.  Seems to be waking earlier and earlier....  do you suppose I should wait to put him down until 1130 and then just let him sleep as long as he wants?  Is that right?  Then what happens if he only sleeps an hour or so???  Then I have a cranky kid until bedtime???  OMG.  Now what?  He had been taking his am nap from 1045-1100 anyway..   But according to your last post I should let him sleep instead of waking him, right?  Or am I confused?  lol.... 

Brenda

[NiknLily]

Brenda, sorry to confuse you.  All I was trying to say is you can go 2 ways about this. Firstly you can do as I and most of us on here did and cut the am nap short to provide opportunity for a good long afternoon nap.  Or you can do the reverse, which is how Tracy describes to do the transition, by pushing the am nap forward and letting them sleep as long as possible then try to give a catnap late afternoon to get through till bedtime.

Ok so to follow Tracy's plan you would put him down 15Min's later than he is comfortable doing.  So if he can do 3.5hrs A in am then put him down for first nap after 3.75hrs A, do this for 3 days then up it again by 15Min's so you are at 4hrs A time, again stick with this for 3 days then every 3 days keep lengthening A time by 15Min's until the morning nap is now at or just after lunch time.  While doing it if possible offer a catnap in late afternoon but keep it short just to see him through till bedtime.  If he wont take a catnap then its early to bed.

Lily started to wake earlier and earlier until it was about 5am most days and I think it was because I messed too much with her routine.  Only getting that short am nap didn't suit her and she only ever took 1.15hr pm naps.  I also did far too many early nights to compensate for her general level of tiredness and I'm convinced this is what kept bringing her wake up time down.  Some LO's work well with an early night but I think they should be used sparingly or you can end up shifting there day from say 7.30am-7.30pm to 5am-5pm.  With a day that starts and ends so early it become impossible to transition well or to give the odd early night when needed.

In answer to what do you do if they only sleep 1hr then yes you do have a grumpy LO on your hands but hopefully it should be possible to then offer a pm catnap.  Regarding the EW I would say this is definitely a red flag that he is not coping well on the routine, it was for me I just didn't pay any attention and thought it was due to Lily being OT, which it was but I should of changed her routine to prevent it but I just floundered around in no sleep land.

Tracy does mention early wake ups and says that these need to be sorted before you start the gradual transition process.  She suggests using wake to sleep to do this.  The book says to go in 1hr earlier than they have been waking, wake them maybe change nappy then put back down to sleep, saying that they would be unlikely to wake fully and should go back to sleep easily.  Hmmmm.... I'm not too sure about that.  If I did try it I would be very gentle and just try to stir Lily without fully waking, but thats only because I know Lily would be wide awake if I went in and changed her nappy with no chance of resettling.

[meltown]

quick question...how long to you attempt a nap if they are refusing to sleep?  I just spent 45 min in B's room trying to get him down and I really can't keep at it that long everyday.  so I was curious what others are doing.  we are doing long morning short afternoon most of the time. 

[samijoe]

Why did you spend 45mins in his room??  Was he crying??


If it were me, id get out.  OMO

Could you have been keeping him up??


half hour used to do it for us...get them back up, feed some food and put down a bit later.



sami