I'm new and have a few questions.....please respond!

[smartypants]

Hi there! I wasn't sure where to post this since I have two questions related to napping and two related to feeding. Actually, I am sure I have other questions but they'll come later!

First off, my name is Denise and I have a 4 month old daughter. We live in Ontario, Canada and what else can I say...life is great!

We are on the second day of the program and so far it seems to working well enough. Although, it really feels like she's just crying herself to sleep because we have to do PU/PD for every nap/bedtime (major accidental parenting!!). So here are my questions:

1. Did it feel like your babies were just crying themselves to sleep when you first started this? We are doing the PU/PD as accurately as we possibly can but it seems like she just falls asleep from sheer exhaustion! Is this normal? By the way, did anyone feel like their baby smiled less initially (or was less active?) We know she is is so sleep deprived etc but I am somewhat paranoid that she is losing trust in us!

2. What happens if your baby falls asleep in the carseat or stroller when on a walk (during Activity time) or if you're driving somewhere? We took her for a walk this morning (left at 7:50am thinking we had ample time to go for a walk and come back) and she fell asleep in the stroller at 8:40am when we were on our way home. I know Tracy's schedule is an ideal to follow and not written in stone but how strictly should we be following it in the early days of this program? Should we have kept her up and done the usual crib routine when we got home? Or is it better to just let her sleep in the carseat? We opted to let her sleep in the carseat and see what happened. We were prepared to do PU/PD if she woke up but it has now been an hour and 20 mins. How much will this set us back, if at all?

3. If she seems tired earlier than the usual nap time, is it better to wait it out or "follow her cues" and put her to bed? I know that Tracy's book says it's more important to read their cues and follow them but does this apply early on in the program when we're still adjusting her clock? I find that part very confusing. At what point in the beginning of the program do we stop looking at the clock as a guideline (i.e. first 2-3 days? or at a full week?). Or once they are used to the program and can fall asleep on their own?

4. My daughter is a really light sleeper...I am really dubious about dream feeding her between 10-11pm in case she wakes up. However, since we are so early in the program and I am not feeding her every 2 hours anymore, I am not sure if she is eating enough/still hungry. So...if I attempt the dream feed and she fully wakes up...I assume we do the PU/PD to get her back down. And if so, no more feeds for the rest of the night right? How important is this dream feed if she is already 17+ pounds at 4 months (already doubled her birth weight).

5. Tracy suggests doing a catnap around 5pm (my daughter was showing signs of fatigue at 4:15pm yesterday and I did PU/PD until she fell asleep at 5pm). However, Tracy also suggests cluster feeding/tanking if you want to make sure they're eating enough. So if this happens at around 5pm (as per the suggestion in the book), how does this work with the cat nap if my daughter needs one? Do you feed her at 5pm and then put her down for a cat nap right after? This seems to contradict not feeding her right before sleeping (Activity before Sleep). Or should she play and forgo the nap?

6. Finally...my breasts were so rock hard this morning! How long did it take some of you other mums out there for the boobies to sort themselves out?

I really appreciate any suggestions and help you can give! Feel free to be as direct and clear as possible because I am pretty concrete thinker!

Denise

[Missy Lou]

hi denise.  congratulations on the LO (little one) and i'm so happy you're on the boards.

before i start with my suggestions, my first suggestion is to relax.  i was a lot like you when i first started.  my DD (dear daughter) was also about 4 months.  everything seemed so overwhelming.  i was completely lost.  but it gets easier and things always seem to sort themselves out. 

1.  i would say no to a lot of crying and yes to not as much smiling.  you are teaching your DD a new way to sleep which will be a little weird to her at first.  don't worry that she is unhappy with you or anything like that.  assuming that her routine is good for her (which we can talk about later), naptime and bedtime should be something like this:  start winddown about 20 minutes before she should be asleep.  then lay her in her crib or bassinet and walk out.  if she starts crying, then you go to her crib and shush or hum or whatever is soothing to your daughter.  you can put your hand on her stomach or legs or rub her hair.  picking her up out of the crib can disrupt her trying to get to sleep so it's really there only to comfort your LO if nothing else is working.  if she is just so upset, you can pick her up and hold her and shush, pat her bottom for a few seconds and then lay her down again. tell her good night or whatever and leave.  you just repeat the soothing gestures (first in the crib if that works or pick up and soothe outside of the crib for a minute or so and then lay back down) and then put her back down to settle in her crib.

2.   just like us, sometimes LO is tired before the "scheduled" nap.  if possible, try to be home during the day so that LO has the opportunity to sleep in her crib (or another crib at someone else's house) as opposed to a stroller or car seat.  most LOs can sleep while in motion but you want to give  your LO the opportunity to learn to sleep in a bed.  i know it's hard to be at home during the day because you have stuff to do but try to if you can.  the last nap of the day (the catnap) is fine if she takes it in a car seat or stroller because that's the first nap that is dropped so however you can get that nap in is no big deal.  some moms will try to keep LO up if they are falling asleep too soon before their naptime because it will throw everything off and LO may only sleep a short time because they are just a little tired.  you'll need to decide that on a case by case basis.

3.  IMO (in my opinion) it takes some time for LO's body to adjust to a routine.  i still go by the clock most of the time and my LO is almost 18 months.  i think as time goes on (like a few months), you'll be more in tune with your LO and be able to tell if the yawning is really tired or just a yawn.  for now, i'd go by the clock - but again MAKE sure the routine is good.  when things get completely crazy again, you'll know it's time to adjust her routine again. 

4.  the DF (dream feed) is just a suggestion.  if your LO isn't waking many times during the night to eat, then you probably don't need a DF.  several moms here don't do a DF because it disrupts their LO's night sleep.  i wouldn't suggest waking her during the night to eat; however, if she does wake to eat, feed her.  several babies eat at least once during the night at 4 months to eat. 

5.  do you have The Babywhisperer Solves All your Problems?  or the first book "The Babywhisperer"?  I would suggest the Babywhispere Solves All your PRoblems.  it has more info.  the part from the book  you're talking about is just a guideline.  all babies will vary to a degree.  i think we need to discuss your LO's routine in depth instead of going by the book's guidline.

6.  can't help with the boobs.  i nursed until she was about 12 weeks and didn't have that issue.  have you asked on teh breast feeding board.  they have a ton of suggestions there and you can post your own question.

So please post what your LO's day looks like - when she wakes, eats, how long she's up, when she naps.  how she acts during the day during A time and before nap and bedtime. 
also do you know if your LO is touchy, spirited, grumpy, textbook or angel?
melissa

[smartypants]

Melissa,

Thank you so so so much for your very helpful information and reassurance! Ok, here goes:

1. i know she is not being left to cry it out...but i just feel so horrible when she is crying/sobbing in my arms. the worst part of it is over now and she no longer does the "heart sluffs" that Tracy Hogg refers to but it sure felt like she only fell asleep because she was crying so hard.

2. just so i get you...if she is meant to be asleep by 7:30pm for example (and i know it will take a bit of work to get her down), do i start the wind down 20 mins before she is meant to be asleep or do i factor in how long i think it will take to get her asleep? because clearly in the beginning, she is still fighting me on going down and she has not fallen asleep "on time" yet. and i doubt i could accurately predict how long it would take for PU/PD in order for her to be asleep on time. so...i'm thinking you mean do

3. so let's say we were home this morning (instead of on our walk which is where she fell asleep) and if i were to have kept my daughter up, would she not have been harder to put down at the regularly scheduled nap time because i did not follow her "tired signs" and she would have became over-tired? that is what confuses me...this whole follow the clock versus follow the baby's cues. i am getting the sense that initially, it is more important to try and follow the clock as much as possible to get things going and once we're in a rhythm, we can tweak it from there? am i right?

4. since she is coming off a pattern of eating willy nilly (which was really like every 1.5-3.5 hours), it feels like i will be depriving her of food if i don't DF her. believe it or not, i don't think i know her hunger cues! (which is often the case with "demand feeding" isn't it?). so when she gets up tonight...i am not sure if i should feed her. for example, she woke up just before 11pm last night so i fed her (when she would have normally had a DF). and it only took 10 mins of PU/PD. the second time she woke up last night, she sucked on my shoulder a little when i did the PU/PD but still went down.  not sure if this was just her wanting to be pacified or if she was really hungry! i just don't want to send a hungry baby to bed. during the day, she feeds for at least 15 mins and vigorously sucks for the first 5-7 mins. and i always feed off both breasts. how can i be sure this is enough for her? this is tricky.

5. i DO have the second book!! i read the first one last year and loved it. the second one is way more detailed and it seems so much easier this time around.

So this is what my day looked like today:

7am - woke up baby and had a 20 min feed
7:50am - left for long walk
8:40am - fell asleep in carseat en route home from walk
10:10am - woke up after sleeping for 1.5 hours but still tired. did PU/PD for 30 mins but did not go back down
10:40am - fully awake and a bit cranky
11am - feed for 15-20 mins
11:20am - play time (low key activities)
12:25pm - showed signs of tired(not smiling as much, lack of interest in toys, not as responsive to me)
12:30pm - laid baby down in bed - did PU/PD for 15 mins - asleep by 12:45pm
1:20pm - awoke from nap after 35 mins so did shushing (NO PU/PD!!!) for about 5 mins
3pm - woke up baby (after 1 hour 40 mins) - fed 7.5 oz bottle
3:25pm - play time
4:45pm - laid in crib - did PU/PD for 10 mins - asleep by 4:55pm
5:35pm - woke baby up (40 min cat nap)
5:35-6pm - play time
6pm - husband gave baby last ounce of milk in bottle (not sure why...)
6-6:50pm - more play time
6:50pm - feed for 20-25 mins
7:25pm - bath time
7:40pm - put in crib - did shushing and PU/PD for 350 mins
8:15pm - asleep!

in terms of her mood during play time...she is playful and focussed but not as vivacious, squealy and gurgly as she was a few days ago when we were not on the program. she will still smile and coo but needs a bit more coaxing. she seems to be checking us out a bit more...like she is sizing us up. and she still rolls over and reaches for toys etc but seems to have a much more limited attention span for play time.

i think she is a textbook/touchy baby. she never ever fusses or cries (unless hungry or tired and i have totally missed the boat). she is easy going and always smiling. a very happy little girl. for fun one day, i tried giving her a bit of rice cereal...she was totally open to the experience. will take a bottle and formula without any fuss. doesn't mind a wet/dirty diaper. loves to be cuddled etc. but i think there is a bit of touchiness in her in that she does not sleep easily....is a very light sleeper...i forget the other examples but she fits some of the examples that the book describes.

so there is my marathon post! sorry it is so long. again...thanks for your great insight and any further ideas you might have!

denise

[Missy Lou]

1.  i know it's really hard to watch them cry and not be able to fix it.  it is heartbreaking and can be really frustrating too.  i'm glad you recognize the difference between CIO (cry it out) and trying to do sleep training.

2.  if she is meant to fall asleep by 7:30, start winddown at about 7:10.  my LO is a lot older but we read or she plays with me in her room for about 15 minutes and then i stick her in her crib after that and let her fidget around for the next 5 or so minutes.  honestly, i probably do about 25 minutes of winddown.  her bedtime is usually about 7 so we go into her room at 6:30 and put on nighttime diaper and pjs.  then she plays/reads until about 6:45 or 6:50 and then i hug her, kiss her, give her paci and tell her good night and leave. 
i know right now her routine is wacky but i'd try to start working on things the way you WANT them to be. 

3.  yes - set a routine appropriate for her age and then watch her and see what happens.  then we look at how she acted on that routine and tweak it for her.  i notice that with my LO she'll yawn but not actually be ready for a nap.  like after being up 2.5 hours in the am, she'll yawn.  if i put her in bed, she might go to sleep but only for like 20 minutes.  see what i mean - she's a little tired but not actually ready for a nap. 
i know it's scary to possibly get LO to the overtired point.  i'm still paranoid about that.  but if her little body isn't yet adjusted and we just follow her "cues" then she'll never be in a good, age-appropriate rhythm. 

4.  at 4 months, she should be able to go about 3.5 or 4 hours between feedings.  my LO is small for her age and was 3 weeks early so we didn't move to 4 hour EASY until she was closer to 5 months.  at 4 months, i did 3.5 hours between feedings and then at 4.5 months went to 3.75 hours and then a week later 4 hours.  we did cluster feedings at the 12, 18 and 24 month marks for the growth spurts.  we did a DF until she was about 7 or 8 months i think.  if she is hungry, she won't go back to sleep.  i followed the book's advice and gave DD a pacifier when she'd wake during the night.  if she went back to sleep, she wasn't hungry.  if the pacifier didn't work, she was hungry and i nursed her.  that also helped DD drop the night feedings.  she feed i think once during the night in the fourth month.  don't think you're depriving her.  she will definitely let you know if she's hungry.
do you DF?

your DD may just be textbook and it's the overtired problems that are causing the seemingly touchy traits. 

i can't remember average A time for 4 months.  let me check and post again.

is DD overtired now, do you think?  not to prolong the AP but we may need to get her well rested before starting on a good routine hardcore.  tell me what you think and i'll post back about the routine.

[Missy Lou]

average A time at 4 months is about 1.75 hour to 2 hours.  i'd go with 1.75 or so for now and see what happens.  we can extend a bit if we need to.  if she fell asleep at about 8:40 - that's pretty much right on cue for her. 

i remember at this age that eating gets weird because LO's eating time will be after they get up from nap and not upon waking.  does that make sense?  she should eat every 4 hours but can only stay up 1.75 hours.  so she'll wake from the later naps before it's the scheduled eating time.  so some babies have gotten used to eating as soon as they wake.  to help them get used to time between waking and eating, do stuff like change diaper, cuddle, etc.  small things to take up time so they don't notice the gap.

for example,

7 - eat
7-8:45 - A time
8:45 - 10:30 - nap (1.5 hour nap)

10:30 - 11 - diaper change, etc.
11 - eat
11 - 12:30 - A time
12:30 - 2:30 - nap (2 hour nap)

2:30 - 3 - diaper change, etc.
3 - eat
3 - 4:15 - A time
4:15 - 5:15 - catnap

5:15 - 6:15 - get ready for bed - here is the biggest gap between wake and eat.  so i would use this time to do low key activities and take as much time as you can to bath and get ready for bed. 
6:30 - eat.  this is a little early but you want her in bed for 7 so she'll need to eat a little early. 
after eating, start winddown. 
7 - bed

10 - DF.  i would DF before the 4 hour mark so that she doesnt actually wake up hungry.  i feed her before she gets to the hungry point.  also, after the DF go to bed.  wait for her to wake you if she's hungry. 

what do you think?

[smartypants]

melissa, you've hit the nail on the head again. i was thinking the same things. and since posting my last questions last night, i have subsequently gone back to the book and read and re-read (during her long nap time) and am much more clear on things. i really like your suggested routine in your last post and will give it a try tomorrow. although, tracy hogg does say to stick very very closely to the clock for the first week because i am retraining her to sleep and my daughter will need the full week to become accustomed to it. do you think tweaking the routine so early in the program is ok?

however, both yesterday and today...we've had to wake her up from her naps at the 2hr mark. is this necessary or should i let her keep sleeping for another 15-30 mins. i know it's not part of the plan and i am not sure how strict one needs to be with the length of naps but a) she can't last more than 1.25 1.5 hours of Activity time and b) sleeps all the way to 2 hours at nap time  (we have to wake her). i stand corrected...she did just wake up on her own from her afternoon nap at 3pm today but was cranky/whining...which lead me to believe that she is not getting enough sleep. this is maybe why she is less excited and chatty during A time. granted, we are only on the 3rd day of the program so she could still be catching up. is it ok to let them sleep a little later if they seem to be the sleepy type? or is there some sort of cardinal rule about never alloing them to go past 2 hours? she will definitely go down for a catnap around 4:30pm.

otherwise, everything else is great. the PU/PD is almost nil! most of yesterday and all of today only required allowing herself to mantra cry or i have shushed her to sleep...and she'd be out within 10 mins or so. so i don't have the 45 min nap problem like a lot of other people here. and she can definitely go 4 hours in between each feed. and the last two nights, she has woken up somewhere between 10 and 11pm all on her own so i have fed her and put her back to bed without any hassle. so no need to try to dream feed since she is doing the work for me.

sorry but i did not understand this last part of your post:
"not to prolong the AP but we may need to get her well rested before starting on a good routine hardcore". what does AP mean?

[Missy Lou]

AP = accidental parenting.  what i meant was if she is so tired that she can't get to sleep then a routine won't work well.  so maybe you would need to rock her so she could catch up on sleep.  but it sounds like although she is tired, she isn't so off the mark that she can't fall asleep.

i don't think that the routine is too different than what BW would suggest.  i did tweak the routine but more for her age than for her specifically.  personally, i would try the above routine.  keep track of how your DD reacts so we know if there are some problems to fix.

i generally don't let DD sleep more than 15 minutes past the time she should wake.  i hate to wake her because she is super cranky if woken up.  but until your DD's body gets used to the routine, you'll need to intervene. 

IMO i'd still do a DF about 10 so she doesn't have to wake at all.  she'll sleep better if she doesn't have to wake because she's hungry.  but whatever works best for you guys.

awesome about pu/pd.  shushing in the crib is the best so you don't have to move her and fully wake her.  but sometimes shushing in the crib and comforting in the crib isn't enough so tracy came up with pu/pd.