5mth old - 30 min nap times

[VCM]

I have just started EASY, ssh pat and pu/pd with my 5 mth old - he was doing 4 hrly feeds and activity time but needed the pram/car or breast to settle off to sleep. This has developed over the last 1-2 months and was at the point of being back to 2 hourly waking up and feeding to get off to sleep during the night, despite being down to one night feed a month ago.
I'm finding resettling at nap times is very difficult. He sleeps for 30 mins on average and when I resettle using my voice with hand on him of ssh pat he is calm for 5  - 10 mins but then gets worked up, cries and I try pu/pd which seems to make him more worked up and frustrated. So far resettling for naps results in an hour + of this and then it's next feed time so he's very overtired.
Generally I'm lucky if he has 3 30 min naps a day...
Is it just persistence that's needed or should I be doing something differently?
Any suggestions?
Vanessa

[andibig]

Hi vanessa
would it be possible to have a look at your routine.usually 30 min naps are a sign of overtiredness.sometimes they they get body jolts as they transition into the next sleep cycle and this can wake them up too.
Andrea

[VCM]

Apologies, meant to add this yesterday! I am fully bf at the moment.

E: 7am
A: 7.45am (7.30 if a shorter feed)
S: 9am (try and put down 20-30 mins before. This sleep lasts 30-40 mins max. Have spent last 3 days using pu/pd after he wakes which lasts until next feed. Despite looking exhausted and almost going off to sleep again after tossing and thrashing, he doesn't go back to sleep. Lots of crying, frustration and the odd burst of cuteness/chatter!)
E: 11am
A: 11.30am
S: 1pm (put down at 12.30, although am considering going earlier given the lack of sleep at 9am slot. This sleep is 30-40 mins; have been trying to resettle with shh pat and pu/pd to no avail - we have an hour + of tears etc.)
E:3pm
A: 3.30
S:4.30/5pm (sometimes no sleep here at all) has activity before bath at 6.30)
A:5pm (has activity before bath at 6.30)
E:7pm
S: 8pm
DF: 10.45/11pm

Left out the Y as not a lot of this going on at the moment! I think he definitely is waking himself as he transitions and is overtired as well! I am so he MUST be!!! 

I have cut the usual 1.30/2am feed first time last night using soothing with my hand and voice - he didn't cry at all and took about an hour to go back to sleep. I was typically feeding again at 5/5.30am but have been able to settle without a feed using voice and hand on chest the last 2 nights which takes about 30 mins (no crying) and he then sleeps through to 6.20/6.30. This is the first time ever he hasn't fed during the night! I know I was prob comfort feeding to get him back to sleep so hoping now he'll start sleeping through?

We let him amuse himself in the cot until 7, or my husband gets him up and has a play until 7am feed. I wonder if this is tiring him out more as he is very sleepy after the 7am feed. Perhaps the window is earlier and I'm making him last too long before the first nap of the day?

Hope that gives you a better picture.

[andibig]

thanks for the info .

i think i would move his am nap a little earlier for now.some LOs at this age can tolerate 2.5hrs awake time (nearing in mind he has been awake since 6.30am).possibly aim for a 8.30-8.45 nap time and see if that helps.this means you'll have to move your other naps earlier as well.i agree you need to bring the 1pm earlier as i think he is overtired and thats why he is fighting the nap.
if he doesn't take a catnap in the afternoon then i would definetely give an earlier bedtime so that he can catch up on the sleep he ha misse during the day.
remember the catnap near the end of the day is considered your "freebie" nap so it can happen anywhere-buggy,swing etc.its the first nap they drop anyways.

regarding the feeding at night.its not unusual at this age for them to have a night feed still (sometimes two).
HTH
Andrea

[VCM]

Thanks Andrea.

Last night he woke at 3.30am and resettled with my hand on him and low voice after 20mins and then woke again around 7! I'm guessing from this he's not missing the feeds and hoping if we keep going he'll eventually not need to wake as there's no pattern of night feeds to wake for. I'm just so excited that he's sleeping better at night and hoping we can keep it going.

I will try moving the naps earlier. We are having no joy with resettling after the first 30 mins of his naps. He just gets more and more frustrated and upset with pu/pd, despite obviously being tired and trying to throw his head side to side to get back to sleep. For example yesterday he had 30 mins in the morning and then 20-30 mins at lunchtime, and about 2 hours in total of crying pu/pd trying to resettle; by 5.30pm yesterday he was SO tired he fell asleep and I had to wake him for bath etc. as was worried he then wouldn't sleep at 7.30/8.

Perhaps I should try the WTS...

Appreciate your help.
Vanessa

[andibig]

vanessa
not all little ones respond well to pu/pd and really it used as a last resort if all other sleep training isn't working.personally it never worked with sasha and just wound her up even more.

I would definetely use W2S to see if that extends the nap.you have to do it for at least 3 days and then also for the rest of the week for it to stick.if that doesn't work i have another trick up my sleeve that may work
ANdrea

[VCM]

I've been trying a few things the last few days but not sure I'm getting anywhere!

I've tried adjusting nap times so they're earlier, putting A into the cot about 1.5 hours after waking. He usually goes off to sleep after 10-30 mins of shh/pat and my voice settling/soothing.

I've also tried to sit with him to stop the 'jolt' after 30 mins or so into the nap. Only found this has worked twice (out of about 6 naps) increasing his nap time from 30-40 mins to 1 hr and 1.5hr (yay!). Not sure if it's a fluke or just going to take practice!

Resettling after waking at the 30-40 min point during naps is not successful AT ALL!!! I am limiting myself to 1hour of resettling at the moment and then giving up. I'm not sure how much crying is too much. He gets hysterical with pu/pd, sobbing and shaking in my arms, but as soon as I give up and walk away from the co he's all smiles.

Also, I'm doing a df at 10.45/11pm works ok but he's still waking between 1 and 5 times a night. He doesn't cry, just throws his legs out in front of him repeatedly. Sometimes he's doing this in his sleep but sometimes it wakes him up. I'm not sure if this is because he's hungry or just stirring in his sleep. He usually resettles if I retuck the blankets or soothe with my voice and hand on his chest.  I'm reluctant to try feeding again as he's not crying. Thoughts?

Thanks for your help...feeling like I could be on the edge of a breakthrough or could just be turning into a shh/pat wreck!

[andibig]

ok regarding the night wakings something that may help is a sleep sac.we used one for sasha as she always kicked blankets off and it was too much hassle to keep rearranging them.if he is not crying is it possible that he is not actually waking up and just stirring.sometimes its worth leaving them to see if they resettle themselves.
regarding the resettling i would (IMO) just do pat/sh and stick with it so he knows what to expect rather than do sh/pat then pu/pd etc.
the holding down through jolts does take a while but should find if you stick with it that you'll need to spen less and less time holding down.i'd probably go in a little earlier into the nap say at 25 mins to make sure you catch that jolt.

try this for a week and if that doesn't help then we may have to look at awake times again.its real detective work!!!
HTH

[rob1lu2]

It may also be, if he's missing that little catnap at 4:30/5:00, that he's way too tired to go to bed at 8pm. Do you move his bedtime up to 7 when he misses that catnap? They say that if they are overtired from the nighttime, they don't get good sleep in the daytime.

I used pu/pd with my four month old - they say 40 minutes is the max time you should use it. It's very stressful to do - both for you and for him, so give yourself a break after 40 minutes.

Hope that helped!

[VCM]

Have wondered about a sleep/gro bag...will definitely investigate.

I'll try 'catching' the jolts for a week and doing shh/pat without pu/pd and see how we go.

I do try and put him down earlier if he misses a late catnap, but perhaps not early enough.

Thanks for your suggestions!

[andibig]

vanessa
grobags-they are brill
keep us posted honey.will be thinking of you
Andrea

[jmdryka]

Hello

Just wanted to let you know you are definately not alone.  I have a 5 month old daughter and started pu/pd about 3 days ago.  Although nights seem much better...naps are another story.

What you described in your son is almost the exact problem I am having with my daughter.  Her naps are about 30 minutes max.  Trying to put her to sleep after that is just a war...she'll doze for 5 minutes...just enough to give me hope...then wakes up again and screams for awhile.  I get really frustrated during these times.  Sometimes if it has been 30 or 40 minutes of trying to get her back to sleep I just wait till she dozes off a little ( I can tell when it isn't going to stick ) and then just pretend with her that she had her nap and stop for awhile.  I don't know what else to do without going crazy in that room!  It is like she won't let herself go all the way to sleep in case she hears the floor creak as I try to creep out...

Anyways...just wanted to let you know your not alone!