i can't take it anymore, 14 month won't settle to sleep and CIO doesn't work

[Lovejoy]

we generally had probs putting lo to nightime bed from beginning really, but eventually at about 8-9 months she settled into sleeping after bedtime routine (she's always been a good to nap baby)
her routine was:

wake: 7- 730am
eat: 8.00
Nap:  10-10.30
Wake:11.30/12
Lunch: 12.00/12.30
Nap:   14.30/1500
Wake 15/15.45
Eat:   1700
Bedtime routine 18.30
Sleep:  19.00

She had a chest infection and then teething which made her unsettled for bed.  We had to try controlled crying, that worked, but then she got another cold.
Since then we've tried controlled crying (over 2 weeks) it takes over 1 hr to exhaust her to sleep, she wakes up in night and won't settle herself so it takes an hour to settle her then,
We're not happy with CC, cos it doesn't work and frankly it's horrid to put her through it.  I want bedtime to be a nice moment for her not her tiring herself out.  (sometimes she is playing up)

What can we do?  (It's not seperation anxiety)

Please help

[andibig]

Lovejoy
Please don't use CIO!!!!its a horrible way to get them to sleep and as you said it doesn't work.
its quite normal for LOs sleep to take a while to get back on track after illness and teething-even with previously great sleepers.
Her NW and being unsettled at bedtime could be a combination of things.
1)as i said it can take a while for sleep to get back on track after illness
2)CIO has backfired-as in shes now worried you are going to leave her to CIO at bedtime and thats why shes unsettled then.therfore you could try gradual removal to regain her trust again.
3) could be ready to go to 1 nap

i think personally (IMO) i would try gradual removal to build the trust up again.i'll try and find a link for you about it
HTH
Andrea

[Jaime]

i agree with Andrea - i think Gradual withdrawal is the way to go.

It's not seperation anxiety)

well, it may not be true SA, but after a couple of weeks of CC, it kinda is about separation anxiety, in that she is worried about being separated from you, and you not returning if she needs help.

here is a link on gradual withdrawal:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63896.0

(((HUGS))) and HTH

[Lovejoy]

Won't she be dependent on us being in the room with her to sleep?  I mean when she wakes up won't she freak cos she thinks we've abandoned her?

so even when she wakes up the middle of the night i should do this gradual withdrawal?

[Jaime]

sorry if we weren't clear before!   

the first couple of nights, you actually would sleep in her room the entire night, right next to her crib/bed (hence the oh-so-cozy air mattress).  that way, if she does wake up, you will be right there to reassure her & calm her down. 

after a night or 2, you will be able to go one of 2 ways (you will need to feel her out since you know her best)
- stop sleeping there altogether, or
- gradually move your mattress farther & farther from her bed over the course of a couple more nights (again, staying there all night), until you no longer stay in there until she is asleep. 

the reason you would stay in there all night the first couple nights is to help rebuild that trust.  you are correct in that this can easily become a prop, but i don't think you intended to stay there permanently 

hopefully that clears things up a little?? 

[andibig]

sorry if we weren't clear before!   

apologies as well
you get so used to everybody knowing the BW techniques round here!!!

we used gradual withdrawal with sasha after a bout of gastro.after her illness we were still stuck with the NW and this really worked well for us

[Lovejoy]

please don't apologise, thanks ladies for advice, i'm being a bit  with it!
Can you explain how us being in the room with her is making her sleep independently? 
Also, I'm trying this today, but my dd was being excited about me being in the room, and just started playing, and babbling...i ignored her so as to not stimulate her

[Katet]

You being in the room isn't about independant sleep to start with it is about her getting her emotions back in order after the CC has messed up her brain chemicals & made her so distressed that she can't relax enough to sleep.
Once she learns to relax with you there, you then take steps to show her how to relax when you aren't quite so physically there.
To give you an analogy... you are being trained in a new job, your trainer is there 100% of the time to start, but as you learn the skills they stay near by, but as you become more confident they remove themselves (returning when you request help) until the point you can pretty much do it on your own.
So once she falls asleep with you in the room, with intereaction only when she is upset, you can start being less involved (close to the door) or even trying to leave if she is happy & calm... you return immediately she gets upset & only leave when she is calm... eventually over time you can leave after the bedtime routine & she will happily go to sleep without you there.
the beauty of this method is when things like teething/illness happen, you can still do it (like I am at the moment) & it always works.

[owelley]

Some of our lo's here if not all, have been out of sorts and clingy during an illness.  I love KAte's analogy of independence.  To get you lo to be independent, you first have to gain back his confidence.   Good luck and I hope you all some good sleep soon! 

[Lovejoy]

good analogy!

how long does it "normally" take?
I will have to do the move out rather than move away from her as her room is small - i'm sleeping in blankets as not enough space for even a mattress. 
Will stick with it.

[Katet]

Honestly, how long is a piece of string? , I couldn't say how long it normally takes, I just tend to do what is needed & have never looked at how long it takes.
I'd think you probably would probably wouldn't need to sleep in the room more than 1 night if you respond really quickly to night wakings... but stay in there until she falls asleep for at least 4-5 nights for bedtime & wakings or longer if she still isn't settling easily.
This time around with ds#2 (due to teething & overtiredness/routine changes due to holidays) we are on day 8 of me staying in the room to comfort him at bedtime... he doesn't tend to wake at night, so I'm only in there 15mins or so at his bedtime... I probably could try to leave with him awake, but I want to wait until after NYE & the last part of his eye teeth finishes cutting.

[Lovejoy]

well the good thing is at the moment there aren't tears at bedtime.  The bad thing is it's taking well over an hour to about 2 hours after being put down, while she fights sleep, changing position & constantly getting up to look around, even though she knows I'm there?  After being sleepy downstairs, during bedtime routine etc. & then she gets second wind once put down?

[Katet]

Sounds like it might be time to transition to 1 nap.
Since her am is the longer, one, try delaying that a bit & then limiting her PM to 30mins.
7pm bed to 7/730 wake is a a long night sleep for a baby still on 2 naps so I'm actually not surprised she is finding it hard to settle, Most babies who sleep 12 hours at night tend to move to 1 nap around 12- 14mo.
The average sleep needs at 12mo is 13.75hours, & at 18mo is 13.5, so looks like she is over that amount with 2 naps.
If you really like the 2 naps then maybe try 1/2 hour earlier wake up & half hour later bedtime. so she gets 11-11.5 hours at night

[Lovejoy]

i ne er force her to sleep, she does the tired  cues for morning and pm naps and then that's always a 3 hour A gap between each wake up and nap.  I then take her up to bed when she's showing signs of tiredness for bedtime, doing a wind down. 

What should i concentrate on, GW or shortening her naps? Or can I do both without totally jumbling up everthing even more.

Sorry to be so idiotic with all this!

[andibig]

I would (in my opinion) would cocentrate on the GW. others may disagree. once shes certain you are not going to leave her to CIO she may settle quicker. if then shes still taking a long time to settle at night then it would be time to take a look at her naps.
i will mention when we dropped Sasha down to 1 nap she would still show tired signs at her original am nap time. but she wasn't really tired enough to take her nap (if that makes sense) so i would take her out for a walk in her buggy so at least she was getting some rest tme.
HTH
Andrea

[Lovejoy]

hi ladies

well we are still doing GW, sitting on chair and sometimes it takes her 5 mins to sleep and sometimes 45 mins!  but at least she's happier.  However, yes there had to be one!  Her night wakings have increased and we rush in and settle her, sometimes she goes back to sleep within seconds, sometimes upto 2 hours.  So when do we stop GW?  Why have her night wakings increased?  Will we ever get it right???!!

thanks.  Double thanks for your wonderful advice and support

[andibig]

LOVEJOY
glad shes settling better .the NWs may be a sign of needing to drop down to one nap.
also its worth sometimes not rushing in at the first whimper (not CIO!!).we do this with sasha sometimes.she'll cry out (its not really a proper cry more of a whine) and occasionally settle herself otherwise we go in "lie down go back to sleep" and she goes back to sleep.
Andrea

[Katet]

I agree from my experience the NW are something that means the routine needs some adjustment. Have you limited one of the naps to 20-30mins, that might help... otherwise might be time to work in 1 nap.
Also if she is settling better but needing you more in the night, I'd start trying to leave the room... once she is settled pick an amount of time (I count to 300) & if all is calm, I attempt to leave... if ds gets upset (ignoring a protest cry) I go back to a point at which he is calm & then try to get one step further along the "chain" to me leaving the room before he goes to sleep

[Lovejoy]

i think we have accidental parenting - she will not sleep unless she sees me or hubby in the room with her.

[andibig]

Love joy.
i would start working on getting further out of the room.do you need to be in her room all night or just to get her to sleep?

[Lovejoy]

we need to be there until she sleeps and then with the NW we have to run in, we leave her incase she is just babbling/noisey, but she then gets up and cries and we crawl in and shh her until she sleeps.

[Katet]

It is an easy habit to fall into.
By now you are probably past the effects of CIO, so try to remove yourself earlier & "learn" the crys for "I need you" v "I don't like you going" v "I'm letting off steam"
I found with my ds#1 a verbal phrase that I could use from outside the room helped with me getting out of the room.

[mari]

Does she wake because you are not in the room?  How long does it take to resettle during the nightwakings?

[Lovejoy]

Mari - i'm not sure why she wakes up, but her NW sometimes she sleeps within 5 mins of shhing and sometimes it can take 1/2 hour (but she's not crying then, she is resleeping and then waking to see if we are still in the room)

going to try to get her to sleep at bedtime without either of us in the room tonight = feel nervous....

[mari]

So will you try Walk in Walk out, or Gradual withdrawl?

[Katet]

I've been in that situation a few times & honestly it is something that makes me nervous... I do a combination of Gradual withdrawral & wi/wo. But the key I find is to actually talk my children through what is going to happen & to use verbal messages so I can actually calm from outside the door.
My almost 20mo is now in a bed & I can hear him come to the door when he hops out & I can say before he opens it "mummy is here it's sleep time, hop back in bed" & generally he either goes to sleep on the floor or in bed without coming out" so I know it is about "testing"

[Lovejoy]

hi all

well we are sitting outside the room, and she sleeps within 10 mins.  We put her down and walk out and she gets upset and gets up to see if we are there, when she sees us sitting there she then lies down and sleeps. 
Should i bite the bullet and just leave her and then run in if she gets upset?

[andibig]

what about doing the above and when she cries just open the door ,let her see you then walk out again and close door??

[Lovejoy]

well we're pathetic parents   we are still sitting outside her bedroom, and even then there are tears.  We tried the leaving her, but she immediately gets upset when she doesn't see us sitting outside.  Even when i'm outside the room, she gets upset for about 10-20 mins and eventually goes to sleep after me walking in and shhing her.

EASY ROUTINE:

Wake 7am/milk
brekkie 8am
lunch 11
nap  12.00
Wake 2pm
Snack 2.pm
Dinner 5pm
Wind -down and milk 6pm
Bedtime 7.30
Night waking 1 hour after and has to be shhd
and then in middle of night.  Sometimes she sleeps through mostly she doesn't.

[mari]

I don't think that you are pathetic parents, I think that you are doing a great job.    When she wakes during the night, how long is she awake for?

[MDHmommy]

Hi there, I thought I'd add my 2 cents. My DS is 15 mos, and our story sounded *a lot* like yours!

My experience has been that a NW that's an hour after he first goes down is classic overtired sign. And then the NWs can continue from overtired.

They only way I was able to get out of this cycle was to a) start Wi/Wo to teach completely independent sleep. and b) move bed time back pretty significantly from 7:30 to 6:45.

I found that using Wi/Wo got me out of the lingering gradual withdrawl/I'm a prop game and using it in the night made the NWs that used to last for hour/s quick, 2 second things.

And, I found that moving bed time earlier made it possible for DS to get enough sleep to end the overtired cycle which was causing that first 45 minute mark NW, and in our case also a 5:00 AM wake up call!

Hope that's helpful for you!

[Lovejoy]

thanks- will try putting her down to sleep by 6.30pm
NW last about 1hr+  She cries, we recognise a going back to sleep mumble cry to a standing up i'm ed off/lonely cry.  so we go in shh her, put her down when calm walk out, get into bed and 5 mins later she cries and this continues for 1 hr.

We went to 1 nap a day hoping that would fix the NW, but as you say she maybe overtired - although if it's not 1 thing!
I would love to just kiss her goodnight, walk out the room and not worry about it and wait for her to get upset.  Should i resign myself to this is our life!  What really annoys me is that although we've had issues, we always tried to get her to sleep independently, and it worked and it seems that hard work was a waste of time.

Will attempt the WI/WO method

[MDHmommy]

Lovejoy, is it possible that LO could be getting some molars?
That every 5 minutes for an hour thing sounds like what happens with my DS when he's not feeling well for one reason or another, *before* I figure out that there's a problem!
Then I give him some tylenol, it continues for about 20 more minutes, until the stuff kicks in and it's like - duh, no wonder...
ANyway, just a thought. Those molars are pesky because they come so long after the last tooth came in that you almost forget all about teething for a moment! LOL...

[Lovejoy]

her molars have come through, but i dose her up with medised and dentinox anyway incase it's her teeth..but that still doesn't connect to the GW tears at bedtime.

[MDHmommy]

GW?

[Lovejoy]

sorry!! the gradual withdrawal

[MDHmommy]

Yeah, ok, you're right. I forgot about that part.

Do you feel like she's really *sad* or upset when you leave at bed time, or do you feel more like she's crying because she's not getting her way?

If it's the former, I'm not sure what to tell you, other than hang in there with GW. If it's the latter, GO FOR IT with the Wi/Wo. Start with 5 seconds at a time and increase to 8.

Let's see what others say re: the bedtime crying...

Kate

[andibig]

do you wake her from her nap or does she wake herself??just wondering if the nap needs to be longer or the bedtime needs to be at 7pm instead.

if the crying at bedtime is genuine upset that you could do a longer winddown-like an extra long bath and extra cuddles b4 bed.
if its more of a testing mantra cry then i'd do walk in/walk out.
i'd see if an earlier bedtime would help

[holdenlouis]

Just thought I would add what we went through too. We did the transition to 1 nap and poor Ds got so overtired he would cry unconsolably for 1.5-2 hrs. To get through this and teach independent sleep "again" I did wi/wo and sometimes I would have to stand in the doorway with my back turned so no eye contact. If he stood and was crying I would do PD and go stand in the doorway. Sometimes if he was frantic I would stand by the bed and rub his back until calm then inch my way to the door while he babbled and started to settle. So far this whole week he has gone to sleepand stayed asleep all night. We also did an early bedtime with transition to one nap. Also did short am nap like 30 min. to start then dropped to 20. Somedays he needs this to get to afternoon nap without getting overtired and somedays he doesn't need it. If he has a bad nap in the pm I put him to bed earlier also to avoid overtired at bedtime. Sometimes in place of the am nap we lie in my bed and have quiet reading time if I feel he is just not tired enough to get to sleep. HTH and good sleeping comes to you also.

Lisa

[MDHmommy]

Sarah, I love DS' name - how literary!

[holdenlouis]

Which name? Holden? Wasn't sure but my name is Lisa, my DD is Sarah. If so Thankyou verymuch

[MDHmommy]

Holden, yes, very literary Love it.