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ACTIVITY => E.A.S.Y. Forum => Topic started by: amayzie on June 06, 2012, 21:32:57 pm
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continued from here:
Whether to persevere
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Happy chatting!
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Great advice as always Bec!
Oregongirl- I agree with Bec. I have gone through several cycles of OT with dd, and I have the most sucess doing whatever it takes to get her back to sleep/ as much sleep as possible. Once the cycle is broken, she sleeps much more independently- until thenext time ot sets in. Seems the pattern for us is when we have disruption in our schedule after traveling, being out in AM, or trying to tweak our Easy.
Dd is teething, and now wants nursed to sleep. She was a little constipated too, so I had backed off a little on solids and was nursing more often. It's always something.
I went back and read my threads from ds and I was much more positive about him at this age. I think he was "less" spirited than dd is. So much going on: easily constipated, teething, SA, easily bored with her toys, and wanting desperately to be walking.
Bec- she may indeed walk sooner than later. The same day she pulled herself up, she started cruising. Wish her mood would improve a bit. Hopefully once these nights get sorted out, she'll have a happier disposition!
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I'm currently in an OT cycle! :( such a bummer b/c I'm on day 9 of being prop free but I had to AP a few naps in the carrier yesterday and today. I didn't realize it was a cycle until she woke up this morning acting OT (all hyper delirious, screaching, etc...) I didn't know that was possible! I tried to end it by keeping activity low in the am and taking her on a walk in the carrier and then transfering her to the crib with a much shorted A time than usual. Still only got me a 35min nap!
So the trick is just to get them as much sleep in the day as possible?
Poor dear is so all over the place emotional when she's OT. She acts so hyper and happy but then mad and frustrated at the same time. I have to remind DH not to get her wound up when he see her like that...it's so tempting because they play along, but her little limbs are so jerky. :(
We'll see how long this lasts!
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Ok so now i have a thumb sucker?! she's been escaping her swaddle lately and i found her sucking her thumb yesterday and heard her doing it again last night at 3am...i guess this is a good thing? She's always been very sucky but we're not using the paci.
My only fear is that her limbs are still so crazy (anyone else with a spirited have crazy limbed children?) She's a major face rubber, or face "clawer" most of the time as she gets tired. I left one arm out for the first time this AM nap and she fell asleep sucking her thumb, tho her fingers were kind of scratching her eye a bit.
Anyone have advice for swaddle weaning? I hope I'm not jumping the gun on this. Especially during an OT cycle, but maybe this will help...
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Amy - DS rarely pulled up on furniture and never cruised :P He just started started standing up counterbalancing himself against bags/rugs, whatever he could find really and then started walking. It was pretty freaky, really...
Teething is typically worse with spirited LO's too as they feel everything so much more :( TBH, I feed to sleep if I have to still and just wean it (if I have to - usually not any more) with hold to sleep and GW.
Jessleigh - the issue with the cycle is that if LO gets really OT, they end up with all those lovely stay-awake hormones coursing through their system and struggle to get through a transition. APing on purpose in these instances can be the quickest way to recover from the OT and get back to the world of sleep. Also, when LO isn't so OT, she will settle herself better too ;)
My only fear is that her limbs are still so crazy (anyone else with a spirited have crazy limbed children?) She's a major face rubber, or face "clawer" most of the time as she gets tired. I left one arm out for the first time this AM nap and she fell asleep sucking her thumb, tho her fingers were kind of scratching her eye a bit.
Yeah... could be normal, could be a spirited thing - depends on her age (I can't remember, sorry!) DS had crazy arms/legs when he hadn't had enough physical activity during his A time and it would keep him awake which resulted in OT more times that I'd like to recall. Keep her fingernails trimmed and it shouldn't be too much of an issue. I think once she works out definitely where her mouth is, she'll keep her fingers there for sucking :P
Swaddle weaning - I did it around 5 months for good when he rolled while swaddled (Argh!)... I had to hold his arms/legs down while he fell asleep but in 2 days, it was done and he was happily a tummy sleeper (or in the corner of the cot with his legs up against the bars ??? ). Always put LO down on their back to sleep but if they roll over on their own, its ok to leave them where they land provided the cot is a safe environment without blankets/toys/etc. that can smother them.
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Jessleigh -have you tried the Miracle Blanket? www.miracleblanket.com I was having similar issues with the flailing limbs until I was introduced to it. It helps swadle the baby. I also found that before the Miracle Blanket my daughter (7 weeks) was hardly sleeping during the day, she now has 3-4 1-1.5 hour naps per day and sleeps from 7pm to 6am, including a dream feed! It was a miracle!! LOL
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Thanks Bec - i think we've made it past the cycle. I let her have one arm out for all naps yesterday and while she did need some help, she found her thumb through the 30/45min transition! FIrst nap was a whole 1hr30mins! Second nap she woke at 40 but i just helped her with her thumb and she was back down in 10mins. Hopefully she keeps this up. Last night she was awake more but I'm assuming it's because she's just getting used to the one arm out thing.
and yes, keep the nails trim is a must. Her little fingers keep scratching at her eyes, especially when she's OT, so keeping one arm out is helping but a bit scary at the same time. So sad when she keeps putting her thumb in her mouth only to make herself cry because her other fingers won't sit still. Make a fist little girl! :) Hopefully in a few days she'll get a better handle on it.
Scatmat - thanks for the suggestion! I'll have to look into that for our next LO. I'm actually starting to wean the swaddle now (i use a Halo Sleep sac which has velcro too) as she has found her thumb and wants to suck.
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Great that you made it thought the transition Jess! Both kids broke out of the swaddle within two months, so I bought the miracle blanket, but DS broke out of that too. I weaned it early as he was an early roller, and became a tummy sleeper. For dd I bought the WOOMBIE- which I liked much better than the miracle blanket. It is like a cocoon you zip up with their arms tucked in. So they can move their arms within it, but can't move them far enough off their body to get their face. It also had openings for the arms you can open up when you are ready to start weaning it!
So yes, both kiddos had these issues.
Bec- your lo walking like that does sound amazing! I am amazed at E's progress. I got out the activity table, and she is just cruising right along! She is attempting to pull up in the crib already too. Did your lo have trouble sleeping during all of this? Her legs just don't want to stop moving. And my lo frequently sleeps in the corner of her crib with several limbs hanging out the bars. ::)
No improvement here with sleep. Naps have been good, so I can't figure out what's going on. I guess I shouldn't say no improvement- in our 9 hour night last night, she only woke 4 times instead of the nine or so times she's been waking the last few days. It's been a week now of multiple wake ups and I feel like a Zombie.
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She is attempting to pull up in the crib already too. Did your lo have trouble sleeping during all of this? Her legs just don't want to stop moving. And my lo frequently sleeps in the corner of her crib with several limbs hanging out the bars.
Yes, he did have trouble sleeping while hitting new physical milestones - often would pull himself up while asleep and wake himself by falling back down and cracking his head on the side of the cot... it was great when he started walking around his cot in his sleep :P He still sleeps with his arms/legs out of the cot. We are thinking to do the big bed transition early because we're moving and have got 3 queen size beds thrown in with the house. It will give DS more space to move around while asleep but could be dangerous.
With the legs not wanting to stop, this was a big issue for us too. I really did have to take him out to the park for 2hr every morning and wear him out physically - swimming, cruising, etc. in the fresh air did amazing things for his ability to sleep because he was physically tired as well as mentally tired and his body would relax enough for him to get a good restful sleep. I also then took him out during his other A times and let him explore - shopping centres, libraries, coffee shops, etc.
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So tonight, I put her down to bed, left and came back in because she was fussing. There she was standing up in her crib! I am NOT ready for this! Surely this will effect our nights. I don't remember ds liking PD too well. What's the best method for spirited who wake standing? She doesn't like getting down yet. :(
Your ds sounds a lot like my dd! We just got a playset which will help wear all the kids out, and we belong to a pool. She went down fairly easily for naps but fought bt. The fresh air that she got today certainly helped naps. I've been trying to massage her backs and legs to get her to stop moving in bed.
I had to move my ds to his toddler bed before he turned two because he learned how to climb out even while wearing the biggest thickest velour sleepsack I could find. :(. He transitioned easily lucky for us. A queen matress on the floor would be nice. Ds would love all that space to roll! ;)
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What's the best method for spirited who wake standing?
I just PD and said sleepy phrase and left the room, then came back and repeated PD and sleepy phrase when he cried - let him stand if he wanted to, pretty much like the 'transition to bed with a toy' phase of the GW I wrote out before, yk? After a few days he worked out how to get down himself (lucky us!).
I've been trying to massage her backs and legs to get her to stop moving in bed.
I did this too but it was an epic fail here - he HATES massage unless its really really firm - the squeezing down his legs was the only bit that helped him calm down but it didn't help the movement in bed while asleep :( Even now, he flips and flops around in his sleep, he finds a different position during every transition and ends up in some really whacky positions that DH and I are convinced cannot be comfortable...
I think DS has some pretty terrible episodes of growing pains - could that be the screaming? What's her mattress like - I presume its firm like cot mattresses are meant to be... maybe she is more comfy on your bed because its softer? Maybe its the beginnings of SA? WDYT?
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My only fear is that her limbs are still so crazy (anyone else with a spirited have crazy limbed children?) She's a major face rubber, or face "clawer" most of the time as she gets tired.
Our little miss is exactly like this, when she gets OT, I put her to sleep with scratch sleeves on, because otherwise she wakes herself up scratching. Before the scratch sleeves, I was trimming her nails 3x a day and she would still wake up with little scratches. [
quote author=timmysmommy link=topic=231892.msg2520496#msg2520496 date=1339077402]Oregongirl- I agree with Bec. I have gone through several cycles of OT with dd, and I have the most sucess doing whatever it takes to get her back to sleep/ as much sleep as possible. Once the cycle is broken, she sleeps much more independently- until thenext time ot sets in. Seems the pattern for us is when we have disruption in our schedule after traveling, being out in AM, or trying to tweak our Easy.[/quote]
This is very true, it's just crazy because little miss seems to get OS and then OT soooo easily. She loves to be out and about though, at first I thought that might help wear her out mentally and physically, but sometimes it just seems to rev her up more. I haven't been able to find a good balance yet. Right now, she is all out of sorts and whiny and growly. It's when she is in a cycle like this to remember that she isn't always this way. I guess I should just remember that she gets more intense, so when she's happy it's more intense, and also when she tired or grumpy.
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Wanted to say thanks Bec for your fast response!!! I really wanted to have a plan before bed!
Gtg- I think I hear her standing in her crib. ::)
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Hello ladies!
I'd like to join this thread - seeing the last message is almost a month old, I hope it still goes on....
I don't even know if we fall into babies or kids - please feel free to move my post, if we have outgrown this thread! :)
So, I recently did the toddler quiz and it has clearly shown that DS2 is spirited and I will be needing help and advice on some things. I've been reading throughout the forum and I saw that a book, RYSC is often mentioned and recommended. Unfortunately in my country books in English are scarcely available and as it hasn't been translated into Hungarian or Serbian, I can't get hold of it. I was trying to find an online copy if it existed, but couldn't... Not sure where else to look...
Vic is an extremely active boy, started crawling very early and is now walking holding my hand - still seems not confident to start off alone, except for a few steps. His sleep was horrendous until I cut dairy, it has been much better recently. We are going through 2-1, though and it messes up a lot of things around here. :P
He is very social ( as opposed to DS1, who was soooo touchy in his social relations...), smiles and makes friends to everyone, but is very much attached to me - going through SA right now. I'm currently getting him used to my MIL's place as they'll be watching him when I go back to work. Not an easy task, he can cry so desperately, it's heartbreaking... :(
The other thing I'm not familiar with is tantrums. DS1 was almost tantrum-free and he was very easy to handle. Vic is another matter - if something is not the way he likes it he arches back and screams... e.g. he's not allowed to switch on/off the computer and if I direct him the other way, he throws a tantrum like above. I ignore it for now, but have no clue if I'm doing it right or not... :-\
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Do you have an international kindle? I know RYSC is available on kindle... Otherwise, I can try to grab a copy on amazon and send it to you, its a godsend and no mummy to a spirited LO should be without it!
Ignoring tantrums doesn't tend to help a spirited. Their tantrums are actually based in their emotions - they feel so strongly that they don't know how to handle it, so working with Vic on creating him a quiet safe place he can go to relax/calm down is one idea - I did this with DS when he was slightly younger... we made a quiet corner, stuffed toys, books, etc. and went there to read/sing when I noticed him getting tense. He now tkse himself there and sits and reads or cuddles a stuffed toy for a bit/angry - this is any time he is overwhelmed, too many visitors, getting frustrated/angry/overstimulated. He does the same at day care - goes to the bookshelf/soft toy shelf. Naming his emotions is another one. Sitting with him and cuddling him or being near him at least when he is having a tantrum is something that helps calm spiriteds down too. Calmly talking to them - not sure if its the words or the calm voice of mum that's helping...
Will check back in a few days when I'm on a computer I can type better on too.
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OK, I'm so slow in technical things - kindle is a device on which you can read books? I tried to find Serbia on the international kindle list, which I did, but after that I couldn't find any details as for how I could buy one here... :-\ Then I checked UK prices and oh boy, it's expensive, I don't know if we could afford it... :( I think I could save up for a paperback copy and then try to arrange sending it... ???
Thanks for tips on tantrums - actually that was what I did with DS1. I just thought he is too young yet, but maybe it's worth to start establishing a habit. I haven't left him alone when upset, I just put him down and sat beside him. I'll try to use my voice more, I'm sure it'll help. He's just getting really frustrated currently as there are things he's not allowed to do and it's so hard to cuddle him when he arches and kicks around. Also he's on the go all the time, so sitting in a place to calm down might be a real challenge.... :P
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I hope Bec can get the book to you! It helps with understanding spiriteds. My DS was spirited as a baby but is a mellow toddler. I can talk him through a tantrum- but like I said he is SOO mellow. I Use the happiest baby on the block "fast food" method for tantrums. It is called fast food because you repeat the order before saing anything new. Say your lo is upset because it's time to leave and they don't want to go. While tantrumming you would say, "no leave, no leave, you don't want to leave now" using emotion to show that you understand they don't want to leave. I continue this until he is calmer, and then I say, "I know you don't want to go but it is time to leave now" etc.
I think try to avoid the tantrum in the first place is really important. So giving a warning for transitions, "we're leaving in 5 min", trading toys, avoiding the candy aisle in the grocery, giving two choices," do you want the apple or banana",etc.
Can you pinpoint your lo's triggers? DS melts down when OT so I really pick my battles if I know he is OT. Dd has just started throwing mini fits when she's mad- arching her back etc. Should be interesting to see how she is in a few months!
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Tecike - you don't have to have a kindle to read the ebook, you can just download it as epub and read it on your computer. I just bought it to read, and it was $13.95 NZ so pretty cheap!
Good luck!
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roimata - I wish it was that simple! Looked up epub, you have to buy it there - which is fine, not expensive, except that Serbia is not on paypal and they say *it's not for sale in my country*! :(
timmysmommy - Thanks for your tips! I will surely try them! I used to talk through with my DS1 as well, but he was so easy in that respect!
Right now the trigger is everything that he can't do - say, not touching the computer, getting the remote and generally rules around the house... He just has to learn these things. Hopefully he will learn it fast! :)
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I bought mine from whitcoulls.co.nz you could try there maybe???
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No, no luck... :(
I can't pay online... and I checked all free ebooks/ downloads, it's not available.... :(
This is the time I wish I lived somewhere else... :(
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Lol Teckie! Ds finally learned the rules at 2 yo! He listens most of the time now. I tried Timeouts, etc when he was younger and it never sank in. I wound up just using lots of distraction. So if you see him heading to the computer, I'd try to pull out a favorite toy. If I was taking away the remote, I would have another toy to give him in exchange. I remember being really frustrated that I couldn't find a way to keep him out of the kitty litter. Gross. :(
I don't know what to suggest about the book. How hard is it to ship from the US to where you live? Could I mail it to you?
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Amy, I know it will take time (more than with DS1, he's such a rule-guy, just LOVES rules... :o ), and it's just wishful thinking that it'll be easy... :P
I'm doing the same with distractions, and he proves really hard to distract, but I'm not giving up! :)
We have an old remote I give him, but he's not stupid - when I give it to him, just throws it away and still wants to reach mine! :)
I suppose mailing would be fine, I just don't know how much it would cost and how I could pay you. Will go to the post office on Monday and ask!
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Hon, I'd happily look for a copy here and post it. Honestly, it'd be worth it just knowing you have it and would be able to use it and pass it on if you saw the need.
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I just finished the book - I think it helped me understand DH more than anything! He's lowish energy, so I hadn't thought of him as spirited, but he totally is! Do you think that Tracy's idea of touchy babies is included in the RYSC book as spirited?
My LO is 14months, and we've just successfully used wi/wo to solve a blip in sleeping caused by teething/illness etc. But he still sleeps really badly with his carer. Has anyone got tips for helping spirited children with carers? Mostly the carer comes to our house with two other babies, so he's in his cot with all his usual stuff most of the time, although sometimes they all go to the house of one of the other babies. When that happens he sleeps in the cot, and the girl whose house it is sleeps in a portacot as she's fine with sleep. He only ever short naps with her and really fights PD.
So he always get OT with her, combined with missing me for 7 hours and he ends up a mess that evening (it's only 1 day per week).
I'd love to hear what has worked for other people!
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Yes I think touchy and grouchy are in rysc as spirited because of there extremes on the scales of the things she outlines- personalities? Sorry I can't be more technical than that since it has been awhile since I read the book so I forget the proper terminology.
Big hugs on the sleep issue. I often wonder what my kids would do elsewhere. Not sleep I guess! I have a hard time getting them to sleep here at home in their dark rooms with white noise!!
Maybe Bec will have some suggestions!
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Yes, I think touchies probably do fit at least as s-p-u-n-k-y, if not spirited, as a lot of the sensitivities covered in RYSC are part of a touchy's temperament.
What's his routine Roimata? Is the carer doing some quiet activity to help him relax without letting him know its nearly sleep time before he naps? We just had a breakthrough with sleep at day care about 5 months after starting and that was 2 days a week in the same cot every day. Overstimulation was a massive problem initially for DS.
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His routine is all over the place as he's in the 2-1 transition and been sick, but before all that he was doing on an average day
WU 7am
AM nap -9:30-10:30
PM nap 1:30-3:30
BT 6:30-7
Today's (at the carer)
WU 6am
AM nap 9:30-11:30 (I was there so put him down - he was upset so did WI/WO a few times but had to leave wile he was still crying so she took over)
no PM nap she put him down at 1:30 and he didn't sleep, just sang to himself for an hour then she got him up. I'm not surprised as it was only 2hrs after a long nap!
I tried to APOP a buggy nap but he didn't fall asleep so we did EBT at 5:30 and it's just gone quiet now at 5:50.
That AM nap is the longest he's slept with her, maybe because he has a cold and I put him down?
Generally my routine with him is, change nappy, into sleep sack, go into bedroom, read a story, sing his lullaby while I walk to the bed and lie him down. I do wi/wo if nec at the start and if he wakes before 45 mins.
She can do this if the other kids are asleep already, but otherwise has to do most of the settling in the lounge with them, he usually goes to sleep okay, but just doesn't sleep very long and most of the time she's too busy with the others to wi/wo.
I don't know about the quiet activity part. because there's only a few of them it's pretty low key most of the time, but I think she does a story first.
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Yeah, we had that - DS would go to sleep fine but not sleep long enough.
That AM nap is the longest he's slept with her, maybe because he has a cold and I put him down?
Or maybe he was more relaxed with you there or maybe he was getting more attention while you were there (my guy is a major attention seeker and liked to be up while the other kids were asleep so he could monopolise the two carers) or maybe its the breakthrough sleep you've been waiting for and he'll sleep better from now on. Hard to know :-\
I forget how old he is... maybe you need to cut that AM nap to a CN of 20-30min to get a long nap at 1:30 which I presume is when the other kids sleep?
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Sorry, roimata, I don't have any useful advice right now with carers... but I'm reading along, as in Sept. I'm going back to work FT and then I'll face all these issues! My DS will be watched by my MIL and FIL and I'm trying hard now to get him used to sleeping at their place. He has a cot there and I take him 3 times a week for his am nap there. I'm putting him down now, but it takes ages for him to settle atm. Hopefully by Sept. we'll get to the point where the ILs can put him down. FX for you to figure it out!!! :)
So, I went to my bank and managed to get a credit card with which I can shop online! ;D Yay! I'm going to order the book now!
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Yay Tecike!
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Boo again to my country! :(
I can't order from Amazon - I tried a dozen books from different sellers and countries and none of them ships or delivers to Serbia. They keep saying that they're *unable to ship to my address*... :( :(
The only way might be if I gave a US, UK or other address, but then I'm not sure how any of you could mail it to me. In the post office here they told me they don't know how much it would cost.... :-\
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Just send me a message with your address, and I'll mail my copy to you. I bought it used at a great price. No worries! :)
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Hi everyone,
I'm new to this thread and so glad I found it!
My LO is 13mo, apparently low sleep needs kid, already transitioned to 1 nap a day (45-50min), sttn for 11-12hrs...
The thing is he just won't nap before 6.5hrs A!!
This makes our mornings suuuper long. I've tried 5, 5.5, 6hrs and he totally fights it. He cries and cries, stands up a million times and reaches for me, to take him out of the crib.
I know A time should be shorter, but the rule doesn't seem to apply very much to us! :D
If he sleeps longer than 60min I cap the nap so that he's ready for BT at 7 or 7.30, which he usually is (after only 4hrs A in the afternoon).
Has this happened to any of you?
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Yeah, we're high A time (so super long A in the morning and a shorter A in the afternoon) but high sleep needs which makes it a hard balance to strike. There are lots of kids with low sleep needs, you're not alone. You may find more mums of LSN LO's here: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=221808.0
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Sorry, Ana, no help here... Vic is LSN, but with short A times and 2 naps.
Amy, sorry if I seem impatient, but I sent you a message last week, have you received it? :)
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Tecike, sorry for the delay! I haven't been on here much lately! I just sent you a message! The book should arrive in a few weeks! Hope it helps!
Hi Anna! DS is low sleep needs. Dropped to one nap at 10 months. Your schedule sounds just like ours around that time, only I opted for a longer nap, and shorter night so DH could have more time with him. At 27 months he naps every third day. On no nap days he is up from 8-9 sleeping 11 hrs, occasionally 12. On nap days he is usually up from 8-10 with a two hour nap late in the day. Cutting the nap only changes bt by a half hour so I just let him sleep. He is really hard to wake, and is usually cranky, so I have often opted to let him sleep. He has always done longer A times in morning, and shorter before bed. Hth!
I'm still trying to figure out DD. She doesn't like to sleep at night. Her A times seem fairly normal. I think I've finally got her doing 11 hr nights, although we still have several nw's.
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Hi Everyone,
I'm new to this thread, so forgive me if I'm not using it correctly. I have a spirited 8 month old. He's mostly a joy unless he's OT, which once in a while is hard to avoid as a two-working parent household. But we've come along way and he does pretty well generally.
I'm wondering if other spirited-baby parents have to deal with fussiness and fighting when changing your LO's diaper and/or clothes? If we change him immediately after waking up, he's usually cool, but at other times during the day and in the evening (after his bath and before bedtime) he gets pretty upset, keeps his legs straight, etc. which makes the whole changing and clothing process a bit difficult. I try going slow, going fast, trying to make him laugh, singing, etc., and nothing seems to be a silver bullet. The daycare teachers say this happens there, as well, except with one of the teachers, who he LOVES, so I'm not sure how to address this. I'd welcome any thoughts or ideas.
Thanks!!
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Hi HRD!
Yep, getting dressed and changing diapers are major issues here, too. My DS was the same as yours before he started crawling properly, now he bolts off as soon as he sees a piece of clothing in my hands. He thinks me chasing him is a great game, he laughs loudly at me catching him and then he's fairly easier to dress when I sit him in my lap. It's summer here, thankfully, so right now it's just a T-shirt and shorts, but I don't really know how he'll handle the winter clothing... :-\
Now, nappy changes are another issue, as he can't crawl off... ATM I don't know what to do either, as for a few days now he's discovered that it's great to play around with his willy... not an issue unless he's pooped. You can imagine the scene - me holding down both his hands and legs in order to clean him and keep him from smearing poop everywhere... major disaster and screaming. I tried giving him things he's otherwise not allowed to touch, but he throws everything away. Then I tried making funny faces and singing to distract him, nope, he won't have it... ::)
So, I'm with you on welcoming new ideas!
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My LO used to be the same with nappy changes and getting dressed too. He's waaaay better now though!
When he was 8months he was a really good roller and would roll as quick as lightning if he got the chance. Between 8 and 10 months I used to change him on the floor with my feet clamping down his arms by his armpits, so he couldn't roll! That earned me plenty of funny looks!
Have you read RYSC? She talks about the different attributes of spirited children, eg if your LO is sensitive they might not like the textures or there might be a thread annoying them. If they are persistent they might want to do it themselves. If they find transitions hard, they might want to stay in their old/ dirty items.
I tried quite a few things, not sure if any worked by themselves or if it was a combo of things.
We essentially did PU/PD for nappy time. I didn't want to ignore the crying as I reckon he was trying to tell us something, we just couldn't figure out what it was! So if he cried, I'd pick him up, cuddle him until he stopped, then put him down and keep going. It made for some loooong changes at first!
We started using baby sign to tell him in advance when we were going to change his nappy or clothes. Then we would bring something he was playing with over for him to hold to help with the transition.
We tried to do something he liked afterwards so he'd have a good association with changing time, eg story or game.
He loves food so I tried giving him a piece of fruit leather to chew on during the change.
Telling him what was happening in advance - eg This is going to go over your head, 123, now! Then playing peekaboo when his eyes were covered.
Teaching him how to help. At 14months he now takes his shoes/socks and nappy off, puts his arms in his sleeves and lifts his feet up for his trousers.
The best thing we've done recently is keep him standing as much as possible. He loves to see what's going on and I think it makes him feel less helpless. Obviously that won't work with a younger baby but maybe doing it on your lap might help as Tecike suggested.
Hope some of those ideas are helpful!
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Thanks Roimata9 and Tecike. Those are great ideas. My LO rolls over as soon as he can on the changing pad, as well as tries to crawl away (though not super quickly, yet). I stopped changing him on the table a while ago afraid that he would roll off.
He loves to stand, though can't do it on his own yet. I have changed his nappy and clothes while he's standing and holding on to a window bench in his room and true enough, he was as happy as can be. Haven't tried changing clothes in my lap, will do that. We just started signing, so that's a great idea, too, and I'll certainly try doing something super fun right after to start those kinds of associations. Unfortunately in the evenings, usually what comes immediately after is our goodnight routine and sleep, which i don't think he thinks is fun. In fact, the past couple of nights, he hasn't settled down to sleep until about 9-10pm (can't get him to stop wanting to crawl or cruise around - two new skills he's acquired), but alas, this too shall pass.
Thanks again!
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Anyone have trouble with their LO's sleep and traveling? I'm not sure if it's a temperment thing or what (might be her touchy side too) but the first 3 nights of vacation were hell. Lots of screaming at BT. PUPD just made it worse (o man. I've never heard this poor girl scream so hard) so i ended up holding her to sleep. It's understandable i guess, being in a new place. But this has made traveling daunting. We're leaving again tomorrow. Staying with my parents for a few nights and then off the Hawaii! Yay!! Excited but nervous. Not looking forward to the 9hr drive (we're gonna try drving thru the night and hope she sleeps) or the 6hr plane ride. Or the 3hr time change for that matter. I try to bring a few comfort items from home and do my BT routine to keep things as normal as possible. Anyone else have trouble with traveling? It just seems like she's so high maintenance with sleep!
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Getting spiriteds to sleep when travelling:
*Have LO play in their room/cot as you unpack their stuff, make it as similar as possible to home with lovey, etc. Give them some time to get used to the surroundings
*Extra wind down and cuddle time
*LOTS of reassurance that although their entire surroundings have changed, you are still there with/for them - really important to have some just mummy/daddy/baby time when visiting family, I have found - used to do E, split A - 2/3 for family to play, 1/3 for mummy/daddy/baby play w/o extended family, WD with extra cuddles, nap
*APOP with something that's easy to wean - honestly, sometimes the only way to get a spirited to sleep when they're still shaking with excitement and overstimulation 2hr after BT is to APOP. If LO was an independent sleeper before the trip, they will be again but keeping them secure and well rested is so much more important than keeping sleep completely independent all the time. DS sleeps worse when visiting than when teething canines!
I think you're right to drive through the night, that's what we'd do if we had to drive so long, kiddo lasts all of 10-15mins in a car during A time ;)
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Thanks again bec! Super helpful. I didn't think about limiting playtime to just mommy daddy time before nap. Makes sense. And I'll be sure to give her extra cuddles. :)
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Hello,
I have a very spirited 6 month old little girl. We were on the EASY plan and everything was great until we moved her crib down to the lower level. She was crawling just past 5 months and I thought she was going to fall out of her crib any moment. She was perfectly happy up until the move to fall asleep and even when she awoke she usually just babbled to herself. Now she won't go to sleep. EVER. I feel like I am losing my mind! She will be just dropping off, then opens her eyes, crawls over to the slats in her crib, tries to stand up and then bangs her head against the sides and then screams. Now she's completely off any kind of schedule and with my husband working nights I am going bananas! She was such a happy baby (always climby - never cuddly) and now she's a total nightmare!
She also had two bottom teeth by the age of 4 months and it looks like she's teething again. She's also been on solid foods for a few weeks. I also thing she may be getting some separation anxiety. I think perhaps there are too many variables right now to point towards any one thing. Any advice?
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You may need an EASY tweak - this is a typical age to be dropping the catnap and she may just not quite be tired enough... The head banging on the side of the crib is scary, sounds awful :( DS did it too - always when teething and it was to distract himself from the pain, so maybe some teething meds would help?
She may also be going through a wonder week - http://www.thewonderweeks.com/index.php/about-the-wonder-weeks/your-babys-10-leaps/mental-leap-5
There are a lot of things going on for her at the moment, so give the routine a tweak, give her a little extra TLC while she teeths and her brain makes a whole lot of new connections and remember, this too shall pass :)
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Welcome 2012 Momma!
I just need to vent a minute! I am just exhausted with my two lo's! My older ds is quite easy now that he is older ( comes out as y on rysc) with the exception of his aggression toward other kids older and younger, and in particular his sister. DD is much more spirited. She seems VERY easily frustrated and fusses on and off all day. She is still waking at night although I had a few sttn when I started supplementing with formula. Recently when she wakes her leg has been stuck between the slats in the crib. Two of her three wakeups last night were stuck legs. I think the hardest part is they are both high energy, and low sleep needs. I'm cutting naps for both right now trying to get some shorter days. For the last 10 months I've had kids awake from 6:30-10:30 plus multiple nw's and I'm just completely drained!!
I don't really need any advice I guess. I've been on the discipline board for my son, naps boards for both kids, and nw's board and bfing board for dd. Our travel for the summer is over I think so I'm hoping we can settle into a new schedule that will help. Ds only naps every three days, and I'm experimenting with one nap for dd in a desperate attempt to have everyone asleep by 8:30 or 9 each night.
Thanks for listening! Maybe I should have posted on the couch!!
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Ok, not sure where to post this question so I'll start here.
Dealing with a 3 hour time change. HI is 3 hours ahead. I went on the FAQ board regarding travel but the advice didn't help.
We had a LONG day yesterday. Up at 4am. She did great on the 2 flights luckily. When we got here I wasn't sure what to do w bedtime so I just gave her an extra Carnap and put her down at 7pm HI time hoping shed be tired enough to go back to sleep if she woke at 3am.
Nope. One NW at 1am. Then again at 3am and would NOT go back down.
That means her first nap will be around 6am. Do I let her nap as long as she wants or wake her at 7 to get back on track? Should I keep putting her down for BT at 7pm?
Do any other mothers of a spirited have advice for a 3 hr time change? Thanks!
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Hugs, Amy xx I hope you can get them onto a nice routine that allows you a bit more opportunity to rest.
Jessleigh - How long are you there? I can't remember ::) I'd be really tempted to keep her on the same time zone as home if its a week or so :P If its a longer visit but not permanent, I'd just wing it. I don't think there's any nice easy way to get a 3hr change into a baby :P Maybe a super EBT and crossed fingers - she'll be OT from that long day and the short night so she may just do a really long night.
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Thanks Bec. Had a peaceful evening with both kids asleep by 8, but Emily was up most of the night. This isn't new obviously. I think it's SA. She won't go to sleep without me in the room. Then wakes up at night to see me. Should make me feel special right lol!
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Should make you feel special :) I know it doesn't feel that way in the middle of the night though, believe me. We have had wicked SA since we moved :(
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Thanks for the note Becj86. Another horrible night last night. I think she was up at least 10 times last night. We tried putting her down a little later this morning and she went to sleep around 930, only slept for 30 mins, then shushed her back to sleep for 10 mins and she slept another 40 mins. We are going to attempt the next nap a little later too, around 2 pm or so and nix the catnap. We are giving her baby Advil and some Anbesol for her teething. Here's to hoping!
I was wondering if anyone has tried the Safe T Sleep for their spirited one? I am wondering if it works because I think most of my LO's problem is waking herself up from all the movement.
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We didn't use anything other than a blanket to swaddle... so I'm not much help there. FWIW, DS moves around a lot when sleeping, I often wonder if its actually restful :P It did wake him when he was younger but once he found a couple of comfortable positions (to him, no way no how could I sleep like that) he would sleep better without restraints.
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2012mama, so sorry, no help here. We're also using a blanket only as my DS is the same as bec's - moving around all the time and sleeping in really awkward positions. Thankfully he's not waking anymore with all the moving around.
Amy, oh yeah, the SA that makes you feel special! Well we're having it as well and it doesn't make me feel special... :P Probably there's something wrong with me! ;)
Well, I've finally read the book! It was a real eye opener for me... I have to work on myself more than I thought, but hopefully it won't be so hard! Fact is, I'm an introvert and I just have to work on my 'talking side' as apparently talking through is much more important than I figured.
I also need to do my first plan to success and I'd like to ask for some help there. I'm going back to work FT in 2 weeks and Vic will be watched by my ILs. We have trouble with SA and sleep, as in over a year I was the only one putting him to sleep naps and bedtime. We have been working on SA over the summer, I was leaving him with ILs for a short time first and gradually increased it. He is fine with them now, though they say he often looks for me but they can distract him easily lately and had no major screaming. He napped there twice so far, the first time he did an hour and the second time 5 mins! :o They were trying to do the WD we do at home, no success obviously. So I took the book to make a plan...
1. Predict the reactions - he's slow to adapt, so the crib and environment is fairly new to him, also the change in the perosn putting him to sleep might disturb him. He's energetic, so will toss and turn quite a lot while falling alseep - I told this to ILs, so they're prepared. Should I tell them to be consistent and develop their own WD to help him nap there?
2.Organize the setting - as he's now familiar with their house, the bedroom and the crib, I made them a white noise CD and told them to darken the room. Not sure, if this is enough...
3. Work together - got lost here a bit, as he's so young to talk with. I am telling him how he will spend his mornings with granny and how they'll play together. I told him he 'd take a nice nap and by the time I pick him up he'll be well rested to play with me. Not sure what he understands of all this... :-\
4. Enjoy the rewards - That's the part I look forward to! When he did a nice nap, I told him I could see how good he slept.
Does this sound OK?
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Yay Tecike! So glad you've read the book and able to apply it so well :)
I think its probably worth getting your IL's to make their own WD routine that is similar but not the same as yours. Keep in mind it will take time for him to get used to it. It took DS 5 months to nap at daycare as he would at home (time and restfulness wise). He always went to sleep fine but was so OS he would always short nap. They actually called me when he slept >45mins because it was such a milestone :P
I found the book helpful in terms of realising I needed that alone time to recharge my energy so I could give it out again to DS - I'm an introvert as is DH, DS is an extrovert ::) We both are pretty depleted by the end of the day.
I found that talking to DS even though I wasn't sure how much he understood was really helpful. It helped me think it through so I could explain it and talking to him like I knew what I was doing - so with confidence and conviction - helped him to feel more calm I think too. I thought of it as practise for when he does understand but its amazing how much they do get at this age.
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Hi All!
I'm new to BW and EASY and would like to join this thread. I confess I haven't read all of it but it seemed like a good place to go to for "spirited babies"-specific questions/issues/support/etc.
My DS is 4 months old and quite spirited. I have a really hard time reading his cues, especially sleepy cues, because it seems like he's always wound up and flailing. We're dealing with a bunch of issues that I've posted to other boards but I have a question for you all - What kind of wind down routine works for your babies at nap time? Or, do you remember what worked at 4 months? Right now the only way I can get DS to sleep is by nursing him (prop) and he only sleeps for very short times (I think he is OT and OS). He also seems to have somewhat negative associations with his sleep sack, because he starts to cry the minute I lay him down to zip him into it. He works himself into a frenzy quite easily. He's never fallen asleep on his own, and I don't even think I've ever seen him settle on his own. What works for your spirited kiddos?
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Minimal winddown was best with DS. At 4 months, he often slept swaddled on the floor so he didn't feel like he was missing out on anything, then I'd sing to him and he'd go to sleep.
45min naps are developmental at this age - quite normal when LO's sleep is becoming more cyclical.
Doing a modified shush/pat worked nicely for sleep training, but I did it once DS was well rested and into a good routine that suited him. How's your EASY?
Keeping activity low-key and going outside a lot both helped with sleep.
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SukieCat, my boy was the same as yours at that age. It got to the stage where he would start screaming if we just went into his room, let alone try to get him to sleep.
What worked for us was lengthening his A time - I also had trouble reading his cues and had left him at the same A time for too long.
I would do a really low key activity for about 20 mins, then our routine was: nappy change, put into sleep sack, story, walk to the bedroom singing his sleep song, put in bed, stroke forehead and say sleep phrase.
He slept in a hammock, so I'd bounce him to sleep before that. I decided to go cold turkey on the bouncing, extend his A time and do the routine. It worked really well.
Good luck!
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Hello all, I suddenly had a lightbulb moment.
I saw this on my unread posts list, and realized that, of course, my youngest is a spirited child indeed.
I've even recommended others to read up on spirited kids before, but all that has obviously just leaked out of my brain since my youngest was born 18 months ago.
But when I read up on it now myself, it was just such a great lightbulb moment.
Everything fits on him since he was in utero.
That explains a lot! Lol.
So, hiya, I'll just hang out here with you guys.
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We are still working on establishing our EASY routine. I am aiming for A times of 1 hr 45 min to start with. This morning's nap was a total disaster, he ended up not napping at all. He laid in his crib yawning for awhile and I stayed with him but he never really settled. He'd start crying and I'd try sh-pat but that doesn't really do anything for him either. For his afternoon nap I ended up letting him comfort nurse to sleep because I figured he'd be a monster if he skipped another nap.
He seems to know when I want to get him to nap, and he doesn't like it. He'll start to cry as soon as we go into his room if it is dark. I've tried to get him to sleep in other places too but nothing works except nursing. I think we'll need to do PU/PD but I'm a bit scared to start because I think he'll just scream the whole time. I don't typically let him fuss much in his crib because it escalates very quickly to all out screaming. Did any of you have to do PU/PD with your kids? Did it work? What do I do if I'm trying Pu/PD and he becomes inconsolable? Usually when it's nap time, me picking him up doesn't calm him down.
At least when it's not nap time he is a very happy baby. The only time he gets worked up is when I'm trying to get him to go down, or when he is OT after not napping...
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PUPD is often too stimulating for a spirited baby. The thing with PUPD is that you have to have the right routine first and you have to have tried something else for at least a week before you go to PUPD because it is a last resort sleep training method. Here's how to do it properly: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=208990.0
At this age, DS had a sleep window of about 2 mins - too early and he wouldn't settle due to UT and too late and he'd not settle due to OT, so its really important to get that routine spot on and pay as much attention as you can to cues.
He seems to know when I want to get him to nap, and he doesn't like it.
This is really typical of spirited LO's. You could try making his room a happy secure place for play and for sleep. I had DS play in his cot during his A time to get him familiar with his surroundings and create pleasant associations. A lot of spirited babies only sleep in the dark. DS sleeps in broad daylight during the day, so you don't necessarily have to darken his room for naps. Spiriteds also often have trouble with transitions, including from play to sleep so bringing something from A time with him to the cot may help - DS was a little older when I did that but I just picked him up with his toy and put him in bed and he would play til he was ready to sleep, then sleep or cry out for me to lie him down and help him off to sleep.
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Have you read this: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52857.0
Do you think that may help?
I know a lot of spirited LO's do better with gradual withdrawal rather than PUPD.
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Bec - thanks for the suggestion of gentle removal! I hadn't read about that method before. I was dreading doing PUPD with DS because I know he'll get really worked up and probably scream the whole time. Gentle removal seems like a better place to start. So as I understand it, I'll do our normal naptime routine, including nursing him, but when he starts to get drowsy, that's when I'll put him in his crib (as opposed to waiting until he's deeply asleep while nursing)? What do I do if (when) he starts crying? Repeat the process?
The funny thing with DS is that I know he CAN self-soothe... at night time. For example, he got up at 3:30am to feed (we don't do a DF), and when we were done I put him back in his crib drowsy but kind of awake and I left. I heard him babble a bit on the monitor, but then he went to sleep. I think it's because it's so dark in his room at night. We don't even have a nightlight in there. I think he gets distracted during the day and he doesn't want to shut his eyes and miss any of the action. I'm not sure how to transfer our night time success to nap time success. I'm super thankful that he sleeps well at night - at least we have that going for us!
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Is part of the issue with dropping the feeding before naps that you aren't sure he's eating enough? It often is...
In which case, I suggest feeding at wakeup and again 45min-1hr later. That way you know he's not hungry at naptime and he only has to go 3hr between feeds to get to WU from his nap.
DS was much better at night sleep than self-settling for naps for a long time too. I'll have more of a think about what else we did.
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I would say that we got into this pattern of frequent nursing because there was concern that he wasn't gaining enough weight. So from early on, basically every time he fussed, I'd feed him. That got us into this habit of nursing to sleep, and now it's the only way he'll sleep. So yes, I'm concerned about putting him on a 4-hour easy because of the time between feedings and his lackluster weight gain. However I also realize that in our current "snacking" pattern, he probably isn't getting enough hindmilk, which is probably contributing to his weight problem. I think he could go 3 hours between feeds, but I still have no way to get him to settle for naps without nursing him. Does that make sense? So I need to figure out a way to help him self-soothe for naps, and it'll probably involve weaning him off of his nursing to sleep habit, or I guess cutting him off cold-turkey. Either way I think he'll have a hard time with it.
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BTDT re: weight gain concerns and feeding frequently. DS actually had terrible gas when I fed him that frequently though and I was constantly told I had an undersupply even though I was plainly still engorged almost all the time. I happened upon info re: oversupply and that was my answer. DS actually went really quickly to being quite happy with feeds 4hr apart and that was at 3 months (and went from gaining 20-30grams per week when fed frequently to 200g per week when fed 3hrly, then 400-500grams per week when fed 4hrly), so its possible - just not likely as most EBF babies don't make it to 4hr between milk feeds til after solid is established.
What happens if you give him the opportunity to sleep but don't try to make him? By that I mean go for a walk with him in the carrier/pram just before nap time or go for a drive in the car and let him fall asleep on his own terms.
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I think it's more likely that I have an undersupply issue rather than oversupply, since I'm only engorged first thing in the morning. We've had nursing issues from the get-go. DS was jaundiced when he was newborn and we had to strip him down and wipe him with a cold, wet washcloth to keep him awake while nursing, and he'd still fall asleep. I'm not sure he ever really learned how to take a full feed b/c he'd fall asleep first. Maybe if we stretched out feedings, then he'd be hungrier and eat more? We've started supplementing with some formula, which I know could hurt my supply further, but I want to make sure he's getting enough to eat.
We used to be able to get him to sleep other ways though, through rocking and shushing. Now he'll only fall asleep nursing, and even when he does fall asleep and we manage to transfer him to the crib, he frequently wakes up after only a couple of minutes. He doesn't even sleep well after a bottle of formula, when I know he is full. We've tried putting him in all kinds of contraptions when he is sleepy, and he doesn't fall asleep in any of them - swing, carseat, stroller, glider, baby bjorn. We tell everyone that we have the one odd baby that won't sleep in the car. He also won't take a pacifier - I've tried loads of different types. I think he'd really be soothed by one but he just prefers mommy. :P
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Maybe if we stretched out feedings, then he'd be hungrier and eat more?
That's the idea.
I've read a couple of your threads and whilst you've got these reflux issues, you may be best off feeding to sleep (AESY) until you can get the pain under control.
DS used to fall asleep feeding too. The midwife who brought him to me to feed showed me how to stimulate his reflexes so he'd keep sucking til he took a full feed even if he was asleep. So I'd latch him and when he stopped sucking productively, I'd count to 20 then rub his cheek/jaw and if he started sucking productively again, let him keep feeding. If he continued comfort sucking after rubbing his cheek, he was done and I would take him off and just cuddle him.
I think a lot of your sleeping troubles are related to the reflux, so I'll leave you in the capable hands of the ladies on the CRC board with respect to that.
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We've started him on reflux meds and we'll see how he is in a week. Thanks for all of your helpful replies! I'll probably be back when we try again... :)
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That's great. I hope it helps him :-*
Always here to help out, we mothers of spirited ones must stick together ;)
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Hi Ladies - I was just reading through this thread and...oh my you have all described my LO, he is a 4 month old spirited (through and through!) little monkey!!
I have quite literally hit a breaking point with our EASY routine and I am just at a loss at what to do any more. We have always (ALWAYS!) had short naps and still do to this day, thus DS is constantly OT. And when he is OT, wowzers...hyper does not even begin to describe it. If I put him in his chair he kicks violently and gets so excited (not necessarily a "good" excited) and lately he's discovered yelling...not crying, literally yelling/screaming. After 4pm it just takes everything in us to keep him at bay from having a complete meltdown.
There is no such thing as "relax" time with him, he is virtually never still, his limbs are going nuts about 90% of the day. I am trying to wean the swaddle because he has started rolling over and also sucking on the swaddle blanket and leaving it over his face, but good lord...how do you tame those limbs!?
I need help from other Mama's with spirited LOs because I am going completely mad. He has no "shut down" mode, the more tired he gets, the more hyper he gets, and the harder it is to settle him. This whole non-napping business is just a recipe for disaster with a spirited one. This sounds horrible, but I just don't have the patience for it any more, I really don't. I am so exhausted!
So, and advice would help - with naps, games to play during A time, ways to settle...anything! I'm about to go off the deep end!
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Lindsay - Unfortunately I don't have any advice for you but I just wanted to say that I totally feel your pain! I am in the exact same boat and I'm about to lose it over here. My DS sounds a lot like yours, and we are having a hell of a time with naps. I've never been able to settle him in any way other than nursing. Hopefully some other Mamas have some advice!
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At this point I don't even think it's important to be focusing on a routine any more, my goal is to simply get as much daytime sleep into him as possible, and try not to lose my mind doing so! I have no issues with APOP at this point, but I am finding that even that isn't working!
On the odd day he has a glorious 2 hour nap, he is sooooo happy!! I just want to see him like that all the time. The poor guy is just an OT mess every single day, and thus his mother is a mess too, and then no one is happy!
I also just want to say...please remember to take care of your self! I've been so stressed over this that I haven't been sleeping at all over the last month, so I think my lack of sleep is really compounding the problem because I am just sooo exhausted and MOODY (poor, poor DH!). I had a visit with my doc today and she prescribed a medication to help with my sleeping, so I hope that if I am not so tired, I can properly help DS not be so tired too :)
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Lindsay, your LO sounds so similar to how mine was! I remember how exhausting it was, and how hard to stay positive when I'd go out and there'd be all these babies who were so much calmer than mine, and if they got tired, they'd just fall asleep in their mother's arms.... But you know, at 16 months now, he is super happy and confident, way more so than those same babies who now cower on their mum's knees when we're out!
I managed to get Lachie to a stage where he would do 3 good 2 hour naps a day, so it is possible! LOs are all different, but here is what worked for us:
We APOPed like anything to get his body into the habit of sleeping, then once that happened we worked on removing the APs. He slept in a hammock which was in our office as I worked from home. I would bounce him in the hammock to sleep, then at the slightest stir would bounce again to resettle. This worked really well as long as I got the timing right.
Double swaddling - we used 2 light muslin swaddles (so it wouldn't matter if they went over his face) the underneath one we'd do an Aussie swaddle and then a normal wrap on top. That kept him pinned in nicely, and the Aussie swaddle give them access to their hands to suck through the wrap.
Reducing stimulation, he was really sensitive to new things and sudden noises, so I kept the house really quiet, no radio or TV. I have a thing about toys, so he only had (and still has) a few toys. He would get really OS when we went out, so I would always wear him when we were out, and for about 1.5 months when he was really bad, we didn't go visiting. If people asked me out, I explained he was going through a sensitive patch and was a lot more comfortable in his own space, so could they come and visit instead. He loved our front pack, so I wore him around the house a lot, that seemed to calm him down when nothing else would. He also would go crazy if he was sitting up somewhere that wasn't snuggling with me or DH, so I just left him on the floor instead. I guess they can't see as much that way, maybe?
BT/nap routine that was the same each time so he knew what was coming
Not clock watching, but just whipping him into bed at the first yawn or eye rub. I actually was putting him to bed too early, because of his OS he'd melt down and I'd assume he was tired. Actually he wasn't, he just couldn't cope with all the stimulation. Keeping things really low key extended his A times which extended his naps too. I don't know what other people think, but I wouldn't worry about games at 4 months. Going for walks in a front pack and being sung to, read to and cuddled is all I tried to do at that age. He had a minimalist play gym that he lay under while I had a shower, but other than that we didn't really do games.
Hope some of those ideas help, hang in there!
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And SukieCat, don't discount oversupply just if you aren't often engorged. I was only ever engorged the odd morning, but had definite oversupply - I'm, erhem, rather well endowed and i just think you can hide a lot of milk in these puppies without anyone realising!
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roimata - thanks for the reply, but I really think it's more likely that I have low supply, or that LO just doesn't nurse efficiently. I think a big part of our problem is that he associates nursing more strongly with sleeping than with eating, so he never really eats well, especially if he's tired. Still trying to figure out a plan to break the nurse-nap cycle that is easiest on both of us. :-\
Also, I'm still struggling to find any method of settling him. Today I tried doing a short wind down: lights off, fan on, into sleepy blanket, and he was in his crib. Then I stood there with a hand on him, trying to be comforting, but he'd just look up at me and smile and kick his legs. But he was also yawning and eye rubbing so I know he was tired! If I tried leaving he'd start crabbing until he worked himself into a wail. How do you think I can best help him if my presence is too exciting and my absence is too distressing? ???
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How do you think I can best help him if my presence is too exciting and my absence is too distressing?
Difficult, right? DS was like that around 5months or so... I used to stay there but close my eyes (so no interaction, but still there) and just rest my hand on his chest and sing softly.
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No worries- you know your body best!
Re the too exciting being there but gets distressed if you leave - I used to find that too! I would lie down on the big boy bed in his room in the dark so he couldn't see me and sing our sleepy time song. Or sit under his hammock and bounce him.
Both ways he knew I was there but couldn't see me to interact.
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Have you had a look into tongue tie being an issue, SukieCat? That can affect milk transfer and make a LO quite tired as feeding takes so much extra effort than it should.
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Thanks for the suggestions! I'll have to try eyes closed or being out of sight but singing.
We visited LCs a couple of times early on and they checked him for tongue tie (he's fine). They were able to measure how much milk he was getting and he was transferring plenty, so I'm not sure what the problem is now. For some reason he doesn't seem to get enough hindmilk. The formula supplement is helping him gain weight now, while I'm still mostly nursing, so he's still getting a lot of the benefits that come with BFing plus some extra calories.
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I had the issue with not getting enough hindmilk, so I used to pump before he fed, just for a couple of minutes to get rid of some of the foremilk, so the ratio he'd get would be more hind than fore if that makes sense. That might help perhaps?
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For some reason he doesn't seem to get enough hindmilk.
This is an oversupply issue, but most LC's and doctors will tell you that you have an undersupply til you believe it. You could try block feeding so only one side for a feed and then start with that side for the next feed. Are you switching sides during a feed? If so, what is the sign from LO that you read as time to switch? DS used to clamp down on my nipple at the second letdown every single time, then he'd fuss and wriggle and I thought that meant he was trying to get milk where there was none but actually he was dealing with the additional milk flow and struggling. Once I did block feeding, I was able to downregulate my milk supply and he got more hind milk.
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I'm not really convinced it's oversupply... I just don't feel like I have that much milk. When I pump at the end of the day I barely get 2 ounces, total. I'm afraid to even try block feeding because I've read that it can decrease supply, and I don't want to risk it in case I really do have low supply. I usually switch sides during a feed. Most of the time DS falls asleep and then I wake him up and switch him. Then he falls asleep again so I try to keep him asleep and put him down for a nap. He tends to be on one side for 10-12 minutes. Even when I'd wake him up and put him back on the same side, he kind of acted like he was giving up and he wouldn't really try to get more milk.
I might pop over to the feeding boards to see if I can get some more opinions...
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That'd be a great idea. Pumping's not a great indicator of how much milk you have. xx
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Hello everyone!
Girls, when did your spirited ones drop the nap (the last one)?
Mine is 15mo and has refused to nap 3 days in a row now...I'm freaking out...he's too young!!! :o
He had refused to nap before, 2 days max, but then everything went back to "normal"...but now he doesn't seem tired, I leave him in the crib for 45min (after usual wind down) and nothing! he sings, babbles, jumps, bounces against the bars of the crib, sometimes bangs his head against them :-\
He's been getting early BT these days and he's sleeping well at night so far, but I am not ready to drop the nap! LOL
Has this happened to you?
Thank you! ;)
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Hasn't happened to me, Ana, thank goodness! DS is HSN which makes that crazy spirited thing a bit easier to cope with...
These ladies over here have older spirited children (over a year/18 months) and may be more help to you :)
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Wow Ana! I agree with bec, thank goodness it hasn't happened here, either! DS is 14 mo and still on 2 naps... like you, I wouldn't be ready for no nap this early!!! Hope you get some useful advice on here! FX for you!
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Now I'm really jealous! ;)
No nap today either...what am I going to do!? :-\
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How long a night are you getting, Ana? If you post on Sleeping For Toddlers the mums of LSN children will probably come out of the woodwork to support you, or I know of a few I could PM to pop onto your thread if you didn't get many responses. Most of us (with napping kids :P ) would be a bit clueless, unfortunately but I know of a few mums around that have really LSN kids.
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I have been posting lots of questions on this site but this place looks like the place I need to be posting them. Please help me .... My spirited LO will only fall asleep being rocked in my arms and then I have to sit down ever so slowly and hold her throughout her whole nap. She wakes and gets OT if I don't do this. I have ensured she doesn't get OS through A time, I have tried low key wind down and I am only trying to put her to sleep next to me on a bed, not even in her cot at this stage. She cries and squirms so much I don't think she can even hear my sh pat! I just end up reverting to the only thing that will get her to sleep because when she is OT she is even more difficult to deal with? Also, is it wise to wake a spirited baby or just let them get the sleep they need even if it moves your EASY about?
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If I recall, your DD has reflux? In which case, sleeping on you may just be how she's comfortable - at that angle...
FWIW, DS slept on me for almost every nap til he was almost 4 months and he was an awesome independent sleeper within a couple of days of sleep training. He was used to the routine, used to sleeping at that particular time, was well rested, etc. and what remained was to put him down in his cot. Frankly I'm not sure how mums of refluxing spiriteds cope, each one is a challenge at this age and to have both wrapped up in a tiny screaming bundle would be terrifying to me. Having said that, I used a gradual withdrawal process with Logan and that was great for him. He was used to falling asleep in my arms, so I would hold him til he was nearly asleep then put him down in his cot and comfort him to sleep from there, then gradually put him down more awake over the next days. I think you would have to know that she's not in pain when lying flat though, before you start that or anything similar. In your shoes, I'd be doing whatever you have to to keep a routine in place and keep her rested.
We actually did a lot better with no wind down (or minimal) because DS didn't want to miss anything, so any cues that it was time to sleep didn't go down too well :P
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Thank you so much for your response. The doc does think she has reflux. She is on gaviscon at the moment. She sleeps so soundly on me, that's what makes me think she is not in pain (she used to squirm and grimace as though she was uncomfortable). I had a successful nap and BT yesterday. I bobbed her until she was sleepy and then laid down and stayed with her until she was in a deep sleep. That has not been so successful this morning! I am so anxious that she is not going to be sleep trained before I go back to work. I can't imagine any daycare provider standing around bobbing her up and down and I am petrified she is going to be left to cry :(. When I read the baby whisperer solves all your problems the other day I was overwhelmed with the number of mistakes I have made and felt like I needed to make a start on helping her to sleep by herself. I still have six months off but the last three months have flown by already!
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Ok, well the best thing you can do is get the meds right for her so she is comfortable enough to sleep. You've got 3 months still, so don't get too worried. Try to put her down for each nap a little more awake but if she's just not having it on a given day where she has been fine before, don't feel bad about AP'ing a nap so she remains rested. Spiriteds often do have troubles going off to sleep if you don't get their window precisely. DS had a 2min window for ages and if I was too early or too late for the nap to start, it was a nightmare to get him down but that window grew and now its not such an issue. A lot of this all comes with development.
re: Daycare - get your doc to write a note about what her reflux means for her sleep-wise. You may be able to find one that can let her sleep in a swing or something so she's upright and less uncomfortable. I honestly have seen a carer at the daycare my son goes to carrying a toddler while he slept because he was needing cuddles and just not sleeping well that day; and also have seen them with babies sleeping on them for long periods of time, so there are people/places out there that will do that. You should start looking for somewhere that you're happy with the vibe of the place and that will fit in with your routine. I was able to write out DS' routine and they followed it for me, even when it was not convenient for them. They are being paid by you to look after your child the way you ask them to.
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Melsie, I had a spirited refluxer without meds. I agree with everything bec said. As my DS was uncomfortable lying down, I held and rocked him to sleep for more than 4 mo, and waited for the 4 mo GS to be over and only then started to sleep train him with the same GW method. Make sure your cot is elevated, it helped us loads.
We also have a very short WD, which still includes a bit of holding, rocking and cuddling before I lie him down. And if I miss his window, he gets so hyper, it takes ages to settle him down.
Hope you figure everything out for daycare!
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Melsie, are you on the reflux boards? They are amazing over there. I had a spirited refluxer who became a completely new child once we put him on omeprazole. It only took 3 days, and he started going to sleep independently.
Don't despair about the AP at the moment, your baby's in pain and needs the extra comfort that others don't. If I were you, I'd get that part sorted first and then worry about the sleep side. I remember someone on the reflux boards telling me that reflux babies usually sort out the sleep once the pain is gone, and that was definitely true for DS.
HUGS!!!!
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How will I know when the reflux pain is gone though? I know it's different for all babies buut what is the average age for it to settle down? I know it sounds silly but she seems much more content in her A time already?
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The reflux board would be the best place to answer that. For DS he went from crying constantly unless he was feeding or sleeping (and sometimes would cry in his sleep too) to having long periods of no crying, he smiled for the first time and started laughing. He also started sleeping in his bed, not on us for naps.
He would always cry out after 20 mins of sleep too, which stopped when he went on meds.
We tried gaviscon which didn't work, he was still spilling a lot. Then we tried ranitidine which made it probably 75% better, then omeprazole solution which made it 100% worse again and now on omaprazole granules he's 100% better. I tried taking him off last week and after day 2 he woke screaming every hour. On it he sleeps through the night regularly, has good naps and is generally really happy - although still spirited so gets OS.
Good luck!
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Thank you. I will have a look on reflux board.
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hi i am new to the forum. my baby is 5 weeks and i think he has all the makings of a spirited baby. i am taking him for cranial osteopathy next week as people have suggested this may help him settle. has anyone else tried this? we're not really in any routine yet as it's just a constant battle trying to get him to sleep more than a few hours in 24.
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Hi, welcome :)
I haven't tried it, but at the very most, it will only help with physical misalignments/discomfort. It won't change any of his personality traits that make settling more difficult.
When you say you're having trouble getting him to sleep more than a few hours in 24, how many is he sleeping? I'm asking because at this age, most babies are still in a 'sleepy' newborn phase so if you're having trouble getting him to sleep and stay asleep at the moment, he could have pain causing an issue. How is he fed (breast/formula)?
To be honest with you, most people are still figuring out the routine at this point. If you keep at the EAS order, things should start to come a bit easier in the coming weeks. Keep in mind that A time is pretty much taken up with eating at this age, so a quick nappy change is often about as much as you can fit in between feed and sleep.
How are you getting him to sleep? He may sleep better in a sling/carrier where he's nice and close to you. Its good to start as you mean to go on, but honestly independent sleep is pretty easy to teach at 3.5-4 months after you've had plenty of newborn snuggles.
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hi
He was a forceps delivery so the health visitor suggested cranial osteopathy may help if he has pain in his head.
He’s breastfed and gaining weight and giving me plenty of wet/dirty nappies so I think he gets enough to eat. I’m not sure if he’s colicky or not, he doesn’t seem to be in pain although he does get wind and his tummy gurgles quite dramatically sometimes.
He sleeps between 8 and 10 hours in 24. Most of that is 2 hour sleeps in the night which is why I think he may be spirited. In the day I think he just gets over stimulated and over tired so then it’s really hard to settle him, plus he’s always been really alert so I guess he doesn’t want to miss anything.
In the day he sometimes will sleep in the sling or if I lie down holding him sometimes that works. At night I try to start him off in his crib and then bring him in with me for night feeds. If I can’t settle him in the crib I just have him with me. I swaddle him (much to his disgust) but he still manages to kick a lot which keeps him awake. I try pat/shh, and other people have managed with rocking but not me. we have a sound machine that plays a heart beat and i pat in time with that. He likes to be held most of the time so it is hard to lie him down. It worries me that I don’t think he’s getting the amount of sleep he needs so I do anything I can to help him sleep but he really fights it often I end up spending the whole S time trying to settle him and in the end I have to feed him again because he’s got hungry fighting and yelling.
It’s hard going and very inconsistent, so hard to really put my finger on what works and what the problems are but I just feel he would be happier with more sleep!
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(Sorry I' coming in in the middle of another topic)...
Just wanted to say thank you bec, I'll definitely post on sleeping for toddlers...although I'm getting very good nights (+11hrs straight, very rare NW) they aren't as long as they were (he could go +12hrs) and now no naps! I'm ready to give up on naps if he is, as long as he keeps good nights going, but I'm beyond scared of him getting OT! :-\
Let's see what they have to say over there!
Thanks! :-*
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All good, Ana :) Hope he sticks with those good nights for you. xx
Smitch100 - Have a read of this, I just have a feeling there's something going on other than spiritedness to have him sleeping so little. Reflux 101 - General reflux information
Let me know if the cranial osteopthy works :) I hope so!
I'd say he's really really overtired. At this young age, and while you're not sure if he's in pain or not, the important thing is to get sleep into him as easily for you as possible and to keep you sane. Have him in the sling/pram/whatever he prefers, go for walks, lie on the couch with him on you, AP to your hearts content to get him to sleep. At about 6 weeks, I gave up on having DS nap in the cot and just gave him the opportunity to sleep when he 'should' be sleeping. By that I mean I just fed him in the morning, changed his nappy and then went for a walk - he would look around and then fall asleep when he was ready. I'm not saying that will happen for you, but it worked for my spirited at around that age and it helped me to get out of the house and get some exercise. It meant I kept the EAS order but the clock was pretty much irrelevant.
Hugs xx it is exhausting when LO won't sleep.
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Hello,
Just wondering if any of your spirited babies are like mine? She is teething the top four teeth all at once and has been for weeks now. She is screeching, screaming, clinging to my leg, irritable and very aggressive. I know it must be painful for her but the constant whining is doing my head in. It eats away at my nerves and I end up snapping :( My son hates it too, then he acts up because he is frustrated. Any ideas? She is 10 months old. I've actually become afraid to go out because of her screeching and trying to propel herself our of the pram...I'm also worried about what toddlerdom might bring. She's exhausting me mentally and I desperately need some tips. Thanks
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Yeah. The teething is BAD. If I was in that pain, I'd take a panadol to take the edge off, so that's what I did with DS, just kept the panadol going 4 doses in 24hr and added in additional if necessary at night (nurofen for most kids, DS reacts badly to it :( ).
Could you take her to a park where her screeching isn't so contained and she can move around? I'd be doing that.
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thank you, that is pretty much what i'm thinking to just get him to sleep whichever way works. The cranial osteopath thought she can help, we have another session next week. She didn't think he seemed refluxy but stomach is definitely one issue as i can hear it churning and he is quite windy. thank you for the advice, will report back after next osteopath visit and in meantime will try to keep him propped just in case there is reflux as well.
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hi just wanted to say thank you for the reflux info, i took him to the doctor and after a day and a half of gaviscon he is already like a much happier baby and actually sleeping and not crying so much. Thanks once again x
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That's what we're here for xx
Keep in mind that babies often 'grow out' of gaviscon helping and need to move to something else to help them later on. The ladies on the Reflux board know a lot more about all that, but thought I'd better just bring it to your attention.
So glad he's sleeping and seeming more comfortable.
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that's so great re the gaviscon! I remember starting to suddenly enjoy my little one when his meds kicked in - all the best!
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Hi all, I'm just jumping on this board for the first time, so I haven't been back through to read through where the convo is right now. I have a Spirited/Touchy LO (such a FUN combination), and TBH, I don't always know which traits are Spirited and which are Toucy, so I'm guessing on my post here.
I was curious if any of you also have LOs that are restless during your BT winddown? I don't think it's causing any issues because "most" nights she does go down pretty good (although we do have the occasional night where DH and I are up and down the stairs a million times). But I just find that she never sits still! So before bed we do a bath, BF, book, and 2 songs. She loves her books and likes grabbing at the pictures. Then I turn off the lights so she gets calm while I do the songs. But even during the songs she's pulling herself up to sitting, then back down, then twisting around to look around the room, then back up to sitting, then back in my arms, then more twisting...well, you get the idea. :) It is never just this calm time where she is still and I hold her. Do you all have similar things going on (or did maybe at this age)?? Oy.
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Yeah, at that age (and still at nearly 18 months, TBH) books were way too exciting for DS to be part of wind down. We did read with him, but usually straight after a feed so he had plenty of time to calm down before nap/bed time.
Spirited LO's often do best with a minimal WD... There are a few mums around with touchy spirited LO's ;)
Is the sitting new? That can cause some disruptions just because LO wants to practise all the time.
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Thanks Bec!
The sitting is pretty new. She can't quite get herself completely sitting, but she can get herself up enough to look around (quite an ab workout!). Thanks for the tip on the books. Maybe I'll take 5-10 mins in the morning to read to her after her morning feed before I have to head out to work. I skipped the book tonight, and she was much calmer during her WD. She didn't fall asleep right away, but we're also dealing with some teething, so ya know...if it's not one thing....
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Well, I never did books at WD, they're far too exciting for my DS2. And yes, he was all into moving around, even in his cot. To tell you the truth, and I don't want to discourage you, he still tosses and turns all the time until he falls asleep. So it's like I turn on the songs, put him in his cot and he turns a million times, checks every corner, and even when his eyes are closed, he still turns around a few times and the only time he's completely still is when he's asleep (at least for one sleep cycle, then he turns about for a minute or so before settling into another sleep cycle...)! ::)
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Thanks Tecike...it's always good to know other moms are seeing the same thing. My LO is much the same...lots of movement in her crib, and she's been like that since she was a NB (although obviously she moves more now). It's not uncommon for her to do a 180 degree turn in her crib from when I last check on her to her NF. I may stick with just a song or two for WD to keep things to a minimum.
These spirited LOs are such a handful at times, but so much fun too! :D
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These spirited LOs are such a handful at times, but so much fun too!
Totally! ;D
DS is a wriggler too. He sleeps in the most odd positions and moves a lot still at nearly 18 months. When he was 3 months old, still swaddled, etc. he would wriggle still in his swaddle from one end of his cot to the other between each NF ::) and once he wriggled around and turned 120 degrees and had his head under the blanket :o Needless to say I took the blanket away and just dressed him in an extra layer after that.
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These spirited LOs are such a handful at times, but so much fun too!
Totally! ;D
This!!! ;D
My LO knows to fall asleep near the end of the cot with his legs up on the rail... :P You can imagine how all this moving around had not helped is reflux... it was a joke when I elevated the cot, even in the first few months, he never slept with his head on the elevated part, he would often end up with his bum on the elevation and head hanging downwards! A real exiting position for a refluxer! ::)
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it was a joke when I elevated the cot, even in the first few months, he never slept with his head on the elevated part,
That is so funny! We had the exact same thing. DD didn't have reflux, but we elevated her crib to help with gas. She NEVER slept on the elevated part. She would just wiggle down to the flat part and sleep there. I feel like part of her self-soothing or self-settling is to move, wiggle, kick, etc. Do you see the same with your LOs? For a while I slept in the guest room next to her room, and after her NFs, I would hear her kicking the mattress (and sometimes the wall) for a while after I put her back down, and then all of a sudden it was silent. She wasn't crying, just kicking and moving and then it's like she would just fall asleep in whatever position she ended up in. Needless to say, she also sleeps in some of the most bizarre positions I can imagine.
I'm amazed that some LOs like being swaddled until 6 months. My DD was such a swaddle escape artist, that it was a joke to even try after about 8 weeks (plus she rolled in her swaddle...what a nightmare).
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My LO (at 9mos) is also always very wiggling and crazy limbed all the way up until she finally goes to sleep most times. Short WD work better for us too. Just bath, bottle while i sing a soft song with dimmed lights. then sleep sac and bed. Most nights she wrestles around in there, on all fours, sitting, sometimes pulling up, sometimes fussing, sometimes babbling (even though i know she's tired). Often takes her 15mins to finally sleep. :) So you're not alone!
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Jessleigh, are you finding the sleep sac works with your LO? It's starting to get cold here, and I've been thinking about trying to use one for warmth for DD, but I'm worried that she'll hate it since she's used to kicking and putting her feet on the crib slats, etc. I know she can technically still do that stuff, but I imagine not as easily in the sleep sac. Just curious.
And it is good to know that I'm not alone!!! :)
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Jessleigh, are you finding the sleep sac works with your LO?
yeah totally. but then again, she's never been without it bc it's what we transitioned to after the swaddle. i have a thin one and a thicker one now that it's getting colder. it's quite loose so she's able to move around still and now that she's crawling i find her crawling around in there or pulling herself up even with it on. I think once a baby's used to it it shouldn't be a problem. Just make sure it's not too small. :)
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hiya everyone, just need somewhere to let of a bit of steam and get some support. My lo is 18mo and is going through a very difficult patch. He's just so whiny and demanding, everything escalates so quickly! Its only at home, he's great with the childminder (once a week) and with my friend who has a baby of a similar age, so we do baby swaps. So its just when he's at home with me or DP. I know this points to boredom or need for simulation but its so hard to keep up! This would mean being out of the house all day every day and we just can't manage it - we live in the north of england so now with the winter coming the desire to leave the house is getting less and less! It doesn't help that both me and DP struggle with the blues at this time of the year anyway.
Even when we leave the house, we come back for food/naps and all hell breaks loose, we just had a proper melt down, almost a tantrum, whilst i was making his lunch because he wants to be held, over the oven whilst I'm cooking! Some things I just can't do! And he wont be distracted, this boy is persistant!. We're tearing our hair out! I'm trying to be calm but DP is losing it and I'm trying to calm them both down. I've read RYSC and ROCRO but I'm struggling! DP is fantasizing about leaving us, I know he wouldn't but it not nice to hear.
Please tell me this is a phase! (till the next one)
What makes it worse is he such and angel with other people, possibly because he gets the stimulation he needs. I'm sure my friends think I'm making it up or exaggerating! Sometimes I think maybe I am, and I'm just rubbish at this! How are we going to cope when the real tantrums start??!
Sorry I just needed to get that all out. I think I need to hang out here for a bit with people who understand!
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Hugs!! That sounds very frustrating! Maybe check out the activities board to see ways to get out energy inside the house?? My girlfriends daughter is very spirited and even in the winter she has to make sure that they get out at least every second day or else being at home is just too crazy!
This is my first post here. I just did the quiz and found out that DS2 definitely has a spirited side, so I figured I would take a quick read of this thread to see what others are going through. He is definitely a very "active" sleeper and interesting as we slowdance for a winddown he wiggles around, babbles (loudly) and then just boom, he is asleep. I often miss the drowsy period to put him down! Good to know that short WD is best!
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Hayley, DS has a cupboard set aside for him in the kitchen (plastic containers, etc.) - I redirect to that cupboard whenever he goes to other parts of the kitchen that are dangerous. He is also capable (and you will be able to judge if your LO is) of sitting on the bench if given a task like washing potatoes in a bowl or stirring dry ingredients together for a batch of biscuits. He does know 'hot' and will not touch hot stuff.
FWIW, I do spend all day outside the house except when DS is napping and when we come home for dinner prep, so he's had quite a lot of mummy-time at the park or swimming or something and can usually cope with 15mins of alone time while I scramble together something resembling a meal. DS does better with food that's been prepared and he doesn't have to wait - he often will lose it if he's hungry and I'm making something, just needs something to tide him over - could you try giving him a couple of crackers or some fruit while you make 'lunch proper'?
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Hayley, I totally hear you! This was our experience a few months ago. My LO was great when we were out, or had people over or was with his minder, but whiny and grizzly at home with me.
Someone suggested taking note of what triggered him, and I found that really useful. I wrote down what was happening when he was at his best and worst and compared the two. That might help for you too?
What I found was the whiny-when-home-just-with-me time, wasn't entirely accurate, it was more whiny when at home with me when I needed to clean/cook or do something he couldn't be part of. If I was sitting playing with him, he'd be great. this, I think was why he was great when we had visitors etc, as he had people focussed on him who would play with him or redirect him before he got grizzly.
It was particularly bad when we got home from his day of childcare, as he hadn't had mama time, was usually hungry and I needed to cook - 3 major causes of meltdowns all at once! To fix that, i started giving him some food on the way home and stopping off at the park or library or something to have a bit of mama time before getting home. Then at home I would try to have something prepared already for dinner (I'd make double a different night and freeze half) and I'd wear him in the front pack while I heated that up. That worked well for a while, now he's happy to stand on a chair at the sink and "wash dishes" while I prepare his meal.
So his meltdowns typically were caused by hunger, tiredness, not enough mama time, getting frustrated with his toys, being told no or not being able to join in on the adults tasks. Taking these away as much as possible really helped!
here's what we did:
We completely child proofed the house so he can wander at will without being told no
We rotate his toys so he doesn't get bored of them.
Bought him a broom and clothes line and taught him how to use the minivac so he can "help"
Fed him 4 large-ish meals instead of 3 meals and 2 snacks.
Make sure he gets lots of attention when he's been away for the day.
Really protect his naps and BT - he is high sleep needs and pretty much has two speeds: stop and fast forward
He is sooooo much better now, so have hope it will improve!
Obviously your LO's triggers will be different, but hopefully that might give you some ideas on where to start.
Good luck!
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Thank you for the hugs, support and suggestions!
I do generally let him 'help' when I cook, he gets big pan, a wooden spoon and I let him have the peelings to 'cook' :) Or I let him 'wash up' but then I have t completely change him and mop up the floor! But this day he wasn't interested in that, he wanted to be in my arms and over the cooker and wouldn't be distracted from this. But I have realised that he been super hungry these last few days and the tantrums were happening at lunchtime, so I've been giving him his lunch 15mins earlier and its really helped! I think it was a hungry/tired thing. Plus this week he's been able to go to the childminder and have his regular playdates because last week he had conjunctivitis so I couldn't do much with him. Him being ill probably wasn't helping either.
I took him to the park and all he wanted to do was put sticks in the bin! I wouldn't have minded except I had to lift him up for him to do it! Its like being with someone with OCD sometimes! Eventually we had to leave because of the call of nature, and he protested loudly most of the way home! Sometimes he gets really locked in to a task which can be great but also if we have to take him away from it, it results in a major meldown. I'm trying really hard to come up with new activities, the activity threads are really helpful, i think things are much improved by the fact he's out of the 'putting everything in his mouth' phase :) so he can play with my buttons (closely supervised of course) and I let him play with pennies. But everything I come up with bores him within a few days and I have to think of more stuff. I've not got much of and imagination at the best of times! :) I've always struggled to keep this boy stimulated. I'm ashamed to say that when I'm really tired I do resort to dvds, which he loves and absorb him like nothing else!
Writing it down is a great idea, Roimata, I will do that, if only to prove to myself its not just me boring him, but maybe it is!! Sometimes its hard to think when he's tugging and moaning and squawking!
Next week is half term so my childminder can't take him as her little boy is home, also my regular play date swapses mum is away too, so I'm trying to make a plan for every day to keep the grumpies at bay! I'm a bit apprehensive, but at least he's not ill (touch wood) which should help!
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Good to know that short WD is best!
Hi Nadia! I never posted after asking these ladies for help with our WD, but their advice was dead on! I shortened our WD to just bath, BF, and a very quiet song with the lights out, and now our BT has improved significantly! Now when I put her down, at worst, we have to go up once before she is asleep. Before, we were up there many times sometimes and it was really frustrating. Eliminating the bedtime story was actually really helpful (I never would've thought!).
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Glad to hear that the WD change worked for you at BT!! Who knew that such a little change could make such a big difference!!
Wondering if spirited LOs get frustrated with toys a lot easier?? Starting at 2.5 months I have had to take some of his toys away as they made him mad. He had a turtle with a mirror on the bar of his bouncy chair and learnt that he could move his hands towards it when he was 2.5 months, well I ended up having to take it off as it looked like he was trying to push both his hands on either side of it to grab it (he wasn't able to grab things yet, his hands were still pretty much fists), and then got mad when he couldn't bring it towards him self!! It was interesting to watch at first and then I just felt so bad for the little guy cause he just kept getting mad that it wasn't doing what he wanted it to do!!
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Wondering if spirited LOs get frustrated with toys a lot easier?? Starting at 2.5 months I have had to take some of his toys away as they made him mad. He had a turtle with a mirror on the bar of his bouncy chair and learnt that he could move his hands towards it when he was 2.5 months, well I ended up having to take it off as it looked like he was trying to push both his hands on either side of it to grab it (he wasn't able to grab things yet, his hands were still pretty much fists), and then got mad when he couldn't bring it towards him self!! It was interesting to watch at first and then I just felt so bad for the little guy cause he just kept getting mad that it wasn't doing what he wanted it to do!!
Definitely this, my lo has always been frustrated by this short comings!! I would have to keep an eye on his frustration levels. Its a fine line between letting practise something but not letting him get really frustrated and distressed> I always changed toys or activties when this happened, or had some quiet time. Also he got (and still does gets) over stimulated really easily, I realised pretty quickly that he couldn't have anything in his cot at all otherwise he would get excited and be so much harder to get to sleep! He's a bit better now...
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How to help a spirited LO self settle? B is a horrible napper, always has been. We quite literally have never had long naps except for a brief stint of about 2 weeks when he was 4.5 months old, right now we are battling 30min ones. On the birth clubs someone mentioned that often we are afraid to let our LOs cry when then wake early from a nap for fear of CIO, when in reality they are trying to self settle. This really hit home for me, because as soon as I hear a peep I pretty much go running in, because my experience has been that his "self settling" escalates pretty quickly.
I don't know how to solve our nap problems if I am not teaching him to self settle. But, we know the way these spirited ones are...he goes from 0 - 60 in a very short period of time and can get hysterical so quickly.
So...I don't know what to do. He has zero self settling skills, I have always rocked him to sleep, and pretty well always went to him when he wakes up. This morning I tried leaving him to settle, and it did sound like genuine settling for about 20 mins, but then the cry escalated and I had to go in. This afternoon his cry escalated almost immediately.
I don't know what to do!
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Hi Lindsay! I'm so glad you posted over here because I SO wanted to comment on your post on the BCs, but know that I shouldn't. :) I have the same problem with Ina. She is the exact same way...goes from 0-60 in no time at all. I wouldn't say B has no self settling skills though because he can give you pretty decent nights (when he's not sick that is), so you know that he is able to transition through different types of sleep without your help.
I would say two things that I've done: 1. if he's just whimpering or moaning, leave him unless or until it escalates. 2. If he's crying, but not hysterical, look at the clock and give him 3 mins before you go up there. If he escalates and gets really hysterical, then go sooner.
I found that giving myself a "rule" helped me to not race up there every time. I like the idea of leaving him too if he is crying and stopping. My only issue with that is that with Ina she will scream and then stop for a second, then scream again. It never sounds like settling to me, so I end up intervening for those too even though she is starting and stopping.
Having said all this, we are also still dealing with 30 min naps, so I'm not one to offer much advice! Maybe I need to tell DH to leave her for a few mins when she wakes from those short naps. It's so hard to tell sometimes what's going on with these LOs. Good luck! :D
Use your best judgement too. If it does not at all sound like he's settling then go check on him. Sometimes I get to her bedroom door, and she stops crying, so I just wait outside her door for a few mins.
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What's your routine?
If that's spot on (or at least the first A time is and then you're getting a 30min nap), you could be dealing with a few other issues often overlooked - overstimulation or not enough physical activity. Overstimulation - baby's brain is still running a mile a minute and when he stirs, he wakes and just wants to pick up where he left off - usually still tired but raring to go. Not enough physical activity - arms/legs/both move while sleeping because they haven't done enough moving while LO is awake to need the rest - brain needs the sleep but body doesn't.
At 6 months, LO's usually need to be in the same place they went to sleep (or a really familiar, safe place) to go back to sleep if they wake - so that's where going to sleep in the cot is important. I found that helping DS transition into the cot for naptime was helpful - a toy or something involved in the last activity before naptime went in the cot with him and he would fight sleep a lot less - he'd often sit in the cot and play then lie down and go to sleep or call out for me and I'd go in, lie him down, tell him it was sleep time and he'd go to sleep. You may find shush/pat or some variation in the cot helps keep him a little calmer as you start this process.
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I wouldn't say B has no self settling skills though because he can give you pretty decent nights
This is true! If everything is going normally we usually have a fairly easy 7pm BT, 1 NF between 1am - 2am, then up for the day around 6:15am. Him being sick and teething can for sure throw this for a loop, but when all is good...it's good!
What's your routine?
Well, it hasn't been great lately to be honest. He has spent the better part of the last month and a half sick - he got a cold that took a full 3+ weeks to completely get rid of, then he was well for about a week or two, then last week picked up something nasty (I actually think it may be Fifths Disease!). So, with all this...the routine has been off kilter. His A times are hit and miss because of how sick he's been. Though, before he was sick...we had a pretty solid routine, but still short naps.
Other than the odd time I bring him into my bed for a snuggle, he always sleeps in his crib at night and for naps. Overstimulation could be an issue, but he is definitely getting enough physical activity - he loves his jolly jumper and his exercauser and we do lots of floor time where he can roll around, reach/play with toys.
I have vowed to spend this week focusing on routine and trying to get his A times back up. We were around the 3hr mark, but I wasn't finding it was helping to lengthen naps. I usually sneak into his room at the 25min mark and start patting to help him through the transition, and it was working really well for a while (it was a process though, and would take about 15-20mins), but lately I've not been having as much success unfortunately.
I like the idea of transitioning a toy into bed with him, so I will try that :)
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Kirsten, I LOVE you new pic btw!!! :)
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The reason I ask about routine is that LO's and particularly spirited LO's tend to have a very narrow sleep window, so if you're not confident you're putting him down when he's just the right amount of tired (not OT or UT), you can't expect him to go to sleep easily, yk? Also when he's sick, you will probably find he needs a little extra TLC ;)
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I can usually get him to go to sleep easily (though, usually by rocking), it's the staying asleep that's the problem...and self settling (or lack of it). But yes, I know what you mean, the window of opportunity still applies and I am sure would help for him to transition on his own. We've pretty well never been able to nail it, so no...not confident at all! I really struggle to understand what his A times should be.
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Well, at least 3hr at this age, if not 3hr15, as a starting point... With a good night that should be reasonably easy first thing in the morning. Have you any way to APOP a decent nap in the morning to get yourself a better start to the day and then work on independent sleep with the afternoon nap?
What happens if you get him drowsy by rocking then put him in the cot? Can you shush/pat him the rest of the way to sleep?
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Kirsten, I LOVE you new pic btw!!
Thanks!!! :D
Overstimulation - baby's brain is still running a mile a minute and when he stirs, he wakes and just wants to pick up where he left off - usually still tired but raring to go.
I keep wondering if this is our problem, but I can't seem to sort out what is making her OS. What sort of things typically make an LO OS, esp a spirited LO? I think this might be it because she naps pretty well at the babysitters, but generally naps lousy at home whether she's just with DH or with both of us. She wakes up from her naps happy though. There is no getting her back to sleep or her getting herself back to sleep. Of course, even if I could figure it out, I can't talk DH into changing anything. He just figures if she's happy, then no problem. But that's another topic all together.
She's on at least a 3hr A time, but it doesn't seem to matter how long or how short her A time is, we can't get longer than 30-45 min naps (except on random occasions). Just thinking of what else I can try.
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What sort of things typically make an LO OS, esp a spirited LO?
TV, excessive excitement - generally hysterical shrieking we saw was OS, not just happy so winding down (just some quiet time) afterwards is important. If OS was inevitable (like visiting grandparents) we worked on 2/3 A time for them to do what they wanted (within reason) and 1/3 A time quietly playing with me/DH in a closed room to calm down before naps.
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Our A times have been on the low side lately because of sickness, but I pushed him back up to 3hrs this morning, which was a huge struggle, but I got a 1hr 20min nap! For the first time in....I don't even know how long!
So, I stuck with a 3hr A time this afternoon, and...15min nap! What the heck??? But, I let him settle himself, and he's been back sleeping for a little over an hour.
Kirsten, I know what you mean about the screaming and stopping in quick intervals. I left B alone to settle again today, and again...he almost throws a fit at first...like he's really PO'd that I haven't come running, but after a few mins it was start/stop and he would cry a little, and then you could hear him sort of talking and settling himself. Believe me, he is not quiet when he lets out those cries...they are loud, but they don't sound desperate so I left him to it. And within 15mins he was back asleep. I think before I was definitely confusing this with CIO because of how loud he can be, when in reality he was just settling...loudly! And it tapers off, he isn't screaming bloody murder for 15mins or anything. I *think* I am coming to better understand what is a real cry and what isn't. I think in spirited ones it can be confusing!
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I am having a lot of trouble calming LO at night. He is just over 4 months and we are starting sleep training ( PU/PD) because shh pat does not work. However, picking him up does not work either! Nothing seems to work except nursing, which obviously needs to stop. How do you calm your spirited babies? My LO gets all worked up and sweaty and screaming until he is blue in the face. He will do this for hours ( I gave up after 2) and I feel like I am being cruel! I know he is not hungry as he wakes every 1-2 hours and used to (at about 2-3 months) go 6 hours at night before waking. Once he hit 3 months he regressed.
Do your spirited babies have this temper? How do you handle it? Thanks!
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Do you have a wind down routine for him at night? We started having a lot of trouble at BT a couple of months ago, and I got the good advice here to shorten our WD and eliminate the BT story. It made a huge difference for us to make those changes. Also, is his BT consistent and at the same time each night? That sounds like a lot of screaming. Does he have reflux or any other issues that might be causing him discomfort? And yes, my DD does have quite the temper. :)
TV, excessive excitement - generally hysterical shrieking we saw was OS, not just happy so winding down (just some quiet time) afterwards is important.
Yup, this makes sense. I have talked with DH before about not having the TV on when he has DD, but he thinks I"m over reacting. Clearly I need to somehow get through his head that this would help. I wish I had 4 or 5 days home where I could be in charge and show him how this would make a difference. We get a fair amount of high-pitched shrieking too. I'll keep in mind your 2/3 plan for next week when my ILs will be here for the US Thanksgiving holiday!
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I should have been more specific. He does great at BT, after a bath and lotion, but he wakes up multiple times at night ( as many as 6-8!) and it is nearly impossible to get him back to sleep without props- nursing, rocking, paci. He gets him self so worked up! How do you calm your LO when there is a tantrum?
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I *think* I am coming to better understand what is a real cry and what isn't. I think in spirited ones it can be confusing!
This took me a really long time to figure out with my spirited LO too. He can be very loud and persistent, and I think I still rush in sometimes when he is just settling loudly. He is approaching 7 mo, and you'd think I'd have his cries figured out by now, but I agree that it can be quite confusing, especially with a spirited one!
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Kellensmom, sorry, I completely misunderstood. We use a paci for DD when she needs settling, but it's not time yet for a feed. Don't forget, the paci is only a prop if your LO cannot sleep without it. So if he falls asleep with the paci in his mouth, and he needs to replugged every time it falls out of his mouth, then it's a prop. But if it falls out and doesn't wake him up, then it's just a comfort item. Not sure what is the case with your LO...just didn't want you to think that using the paci makes it a prop. I would still be concerned with hours of crying like that. It seems like there could be some discomfort. Could he be teething? Also, how many times a night are you feeding him? If this is a recent change (like last few days) it could be a GS? Just some thoughts.
He is approaching 7 mo, and you'd think I'd have his cries figured out by now, but I agree that it can be quite confusing, especially with a spirited one!
Me too! I am sure I rush in too early many times, but she usually gets so worked up so quickly that I'm afraid if I let it go too long she will just be more awake.
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Kellensmom - Often PUPD is too stimulating for a spirited LO. Its also a last resort training method when you've used shush/pat or a variation consistently for at least 2 weeks with no improvement.
A variation of shush/pat or gradual withdrawal is often more effective and less stressful. A baby who is taking 2hr to settle though, is possibly in pain or over/undertired. Do you have a post elsewhere on the boards?
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Just wanted to drop off hugs Kellen'smom! I have no advice because my spirited dd still has nights where she wakes repeatedly. She is going back to sleep on her own, but it still WAKES me up! I found the multiple wakes were due to being OT. Our routine became much easier once we were down to one nap. My lo likes an early nap, and a long afternoon. Pupd did not work. We used paci to resettle. It became a prop and I've tried twice unsuccessfully to wean it, so now it's here to stay. The ladies on the sleep boards are terrific and will give you great advice if you post there! The ladies here are great for specific spirited questions- like pupd not working for spiriteds. GL and get sleep wherever and whenever you can!
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Hi Everyone,
Just a few general questions.... and perhaps an ear....
I have a 9 month old little girl who is, let's just say, a handful.
She started up on her knees and standing at 4 months, crawling at 5 months, signing words at 6 months, climbing up the stairs at 7 months, saying 3 words at 8 months and is now walking with a walker, cruising, and holding only one hand or to the couch while walking. Everyone seems so amazed at her development except me. I am in awe at the speed of her development but I feel like my friends with babies think I'm bragging when I'm talking about her. Truth be told, I am secretly jealous of the moms with babies who don't even roll over at the age of 7 months. Her constant need for entertainment is exhausting. If I put her in the living room and block the door (I am still very visible in the kitchen making her food) with a low level leather bench, she chewed the side off and now pushes it out of her way to crawl around it.
She also throws temper tantrums regularly. I don't think I've ever heard of a 6 month old throwing a temper tantrum, hitting her mother, and biting her just for changing her diaper!
I guess I would just like to hear we're not the only ones out there!
Thanks...
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Hi 2012 Mama :)
I have a spirited with pretty speedy and atypical development too, so I get what you mean when you say your friends think you're bragging. DS was walking at 8.5 months, walking well when he turned 9 months and running at 10.5months. He never cruised - just stood up in the middle of the room and did squats at 7.5 months - that continued for a month then he walked. You can imagine that I soon stopped going to mothers groups...
What I did though, was take him to the park and the library and places he could meet older kids and watch and marvel at him as he negotiated new places and new social situations. I also opened his world to lots of things that many babies never get to do - he loves swimming and now at 19 months is putting together the motor skills not usually present til age 3 and really working on swimming freestyle... no doggy paddle for this kid once he saw me swimming laps once :P
Can I also suggest you read Raising Your Spirited Child and start implementing ideas now in an age appropriate way (for practise for you).
There are more of us out here, this is a safe place to come and ask questions, talk honestly and openly about LO's development and not feel bad about it :) Yes, these spirited kiddos require a lot of energy, but they can also be a lot of fun if you let them!
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Hi there 2012 mama!
I get what you are talking about being exhausted from entertaining them. I had an angel baby for my first child and having one with some spirit is definitely a change, lol. DS1 was happy to sit and play on his own for such long periods. I just put a few toys around him and he was super happy. I know that this will not be the case with DS2. When he is sitting a toy will only last so long before he needs a new toy or a new environment to sit in. Unless we are on a playdate or at moms group. This week at moms group I swear that he was sitting or on his tummy without any toys for the entire 2hrs just watching the kids run around, so nice to not have to keep changing things up for him!!
I know that my one friend with a gifted, very spirited LO found that putting him in activities geared for kids a little older helped a lot. So maybe think of activities that you would think for a 18m/o or 2y/o and try those? You might be able to relate more to those moms as well!!
HTH!
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Hi 2012 Mama!
I also know how you feel with the constant need to entertain them!, some days it is easier to deal with than others that's for sure!
I completely agree with Nadia and Bec, sometimes getting out is the best thing you can do! My DS also loves swimming, so I take him to the pool on Monday's, and on Wednesday's he goes to baby reading group at our library. It is also nice for you to be able to get out of the house :)
That said, you obviously cannot go out every single day, and there are those things you need to do at home...make baby food, do laundry, vacuum, cook dinner, etc. Some things that work for us - I bought a used jolly jumper for $5 and it is honestly the best $5 I ever spent! I can put him in there and he is content to bounce for a good 20mins (prime time to vacuum!), and he can burn some serious energy.
I know TV can be overstimulating for some spirited LO's, but my DS loves the Baby Einstien movies, particularly the Baby MacDonald one . In the morning when I have to wash and sterilize his bottles and make formula, I feed him breakfast in his high chair and then leave him in the seat and set up a movie on the laptop with a few toys on the tray, and this gives me enough time to do his bottles etc. Plus, it is far enough away from nap time that I have time to help him wind down so I don't think the movie really overstimulates him.
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Hi all I just wanted to see what you all thought. I think my LO is a mix of spirited and textbook, it sometimes depends on the situation can this be the case? Do you find spirited babies have unusually high A times? My LO is 6.5 months today and is at 3hr A and I'm needing to up it I think because for the past 2 weeks he's been waking up at 5:30 then 4:30 now it's 3:45. Needless to say we're both exhausted. I think he is going through some mental leaps right now. Just wanted to see if you all have experienced that. :)
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Hi there!!
DS2 is a mixture of spirited and textbook and currently we are at 3hr, 2hr40min, 3hr for our A times (he is 5 months old). I really don't know if spirited LOs on average have higher A times. My girlfriend has a fully spirited DD and she has always been a high sleep needs girl! Maybe try posting in the EASY forum if you need more thoughts?? It is hard to know sometimes when it is time to up those A times!! Hugs!
HTH!
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I have seen some incredibly low sleep needs spiriteds and some really high sleep needs ones too. The thing with spirited LO's is more that they experience things 'more' - so emotions are generally stronger and more overwhelming than other kids (not to negate others' emotions at all).
Mental leaps can mess with sleep regardless of temperament...
Temperament can come out in different situations - DS is a spirited angel, so angel for most of the sleep related matters and spirited for every moment he's awake. It was really hard to get him to wind down and relax enough to sleep when he was 6 months old, but once he was calm enough, he was really happy to lie down and sleep - he seemed to know he needed it.
Spiriteds also often struggle with transitions from one activity to another (often the reason getting them to sleep is tricky).
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my lo has low sleep needs, rarely sleep more than 10 hours at night, and has consistently had high A times. He definitely goes on that EW loop, - getting earlier and earlier every morning - when he needs his A times extending.
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Hey Mamas! Just jumping on for moral support...In regards to sleep, i agree it varies in spiriteds. Mine has always been low on A times and gets into OT cycles VERY easily.
Which is the reason for my 'popping in.' :) We are in another either OT cycle or UT/OT and i haven't sorted out which. I feel like i have the hardest time knowing what she needs lately. I can do the same A time and get extremely different results every day. I feel like I'm always on guard with getting her OS and i always give her at least an hour at home with low key play before nap if we've been out. But I often feel like all my efforts are for not. I often feel alone in this as none of my friends have trouble with their LO's and sleep.
It's hard when i see my friends out late with their LO's or they put them down late for a nap bc they were out running around and their LO's still take that 2hr nap, whereas, if i don't walk on egg shells with her, i'm doomed to get 35/40min OT or OS naps. It just gets exhausting. Maybe I'm trying too hard. Not sure if anyone else feels like this with their LO??
I've been on the naps board and i think i stump everyone who tries to help me. :) She's a mystery with sleep!
We were doing a great week of 2 naps either 1.5-2hrs with only 3hrs 15mins A time (i was seriously on cloud 9! BEST napping she's EVER done!). Then suddenly one nap was 30mins, then the next, and now a week later, we've been doing short naps where i have to APOP just to get her some sleep.
Maybe I'm totally missing it? Maybe what i think are OT signs are just how spiriteds are? Maybe her A times really are too low? Her movements are jerky a lot. Just gets super wound up really easily. If she sees a dog or cat, its over. Every limb is jerking 1000miles per minute and she's bouncing and screeching like crazy. If she hears a plastic bag or tin foil or the blender she freaks. I can't blow dry my hair with her in the room. Sometimes i seriously wonder if theirs something wrong with her. But there's not. She's just so sensitive.
Am i just being too uptight? Are babies just sometimes super highstrung and i need to lighten up and be ok with her getting wound up? Maybe im so worried about OS all the time that she's understimulated...I know I'm thinking myself in circles.
Sorry for the vent. I feel like most of the time I'm ok with the fact that that's just how she is, but this last week has been a bit stressful. Just needed a little BW support. :)
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Lots of big squishy BW hugs xx
A lot of it sounds like OS to me. She's pretty sensitive to OT too, from what you're writing.
DS was like that with noises, until he knew what was making the noise and how. So with the blender, I'd hold him and show him the blender, then show how I plug it in and press the button and show I can shut it off again. I wonder though, if she's also got some kind of sensory thing since she's jumping at some reasonably commonplace noises she's experienced before? Here are some links you may find helpful: sensory integration dysfunction- when los react strongly and Anyone want to discuss highly sensitive children?
Have you tried squeezing her limbs as a massage to try and help calm them? I have an hilarious video of L flapping his arms up and down as he walked - everyone was amazed he could stay standing let alone walk because he was flapping his arms so vigorously it would shake his whole body. He still does it now but less frequently...
I tried to find ways to help L calm down rather than preventing the OS - nice tight hugs (a simple but effective suggestion stolen from RYSC) work really well here, so when L is OS, I can usually wrestle with him and get him into a hug or at least have a big cuddle when he gets upset and turns to tears. Often I'd combine that with a calm voice explaining what's happening.
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Interesting ... She's not quite as extreme as the hypersensitivity I read about. She's fine w tastes and touch and lights, etc. but I do wonder about noise. Whenever we go to a social gathering she always very cautious and observant first and if ppl get in her space too quickly she gets aggitated. But eventually she warms up.
Good suggestions about showing her the things that bother her? Ie blender. I've done this before but I think I just need to be mindful to continue to do it to help her.
Question: would u say she's ot when she wakes acting hyper? I mean, just carrying her from one room to the next her legs are kicking, arms flapping. She's crawling all over the place but then pauses to grab her blankie, suck her thumb and roll on the ground. She's happy one minutes, agitated or frustrated the next. Plus she's always yawning now from the start of every wake up time.
Does this sound ot or OS to you? Carried over from previous days? She's having to have ebt of 6/6:30 but generally gets 11-11.5 hours at night and still wakes like this. Dh says, she's a baby! She's gonna act crazy! But sometimes I wonder ....
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Hello Mommas,
I'm new to this board, but have been reading it for the past few days. I have a very spirited nearly 8 month old boy who is extremely active. We are having a horrendous time sleeping at night, despite all my efforts with a good EASY since birth. I've posted on the main EASY board and am getting great advice there, but just wanted to join in here for some extra support. I'm exhausted and discouraged. :(
Jessleigh, it seems like our babies have much in common. My baby is very sensitive and gets extrememly hyper. He can't slow down. I miss his tired cues bc there pretty much are none until he's ready to crash. His activity times see to be rapidly increasing, almost too much. Apparently has pretty high A times for his age.
Do any mothers on here have a sample routine that you have used for your spirited baby with a 3 hour 30 A time? I am having problems fitting two naps into the day and still making bedtime. It seems like maybe my baby needs a full A time before bed, but I'm still trying to figure that one out. The short PM nap at the end of the day seems to lend to OT by bedtime, but I can't get my baby to down easily without a longer A time. We seem to have endless nights of NW either way. He is a great daytime napper. Nothing is really making sense right now. After last night, my brain is mush and I'm not convinced I have had anything right for the past several months! :( I do know he about to get his first tooth, but all this NW has been happening forever...so I believe most of it is routine related.
Thanks everyone!
Jenny
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I mean, just carrying her from one room to the next her legs are kicking, arms flapping.
L did this when he wanted to be put down, stay where he had been or go somewhere other than where he was being taken.
She's happy one minutes, agitated or frustrated the next.
Pretty normal at this age (though more extreme with spirited LO's) - the frustration of having their brain at this stage of development but not being able to communicate what they're thinking and not being able to move around as they want to is really tough for them. Have you tried signing some of the key things she might want to communicate? DH used to ask L where he wanted to go and he'd lean that way and DH would walk that way, kind of like being DS' legs when he was frustrated about not walking.
It seems like maybe my baby needs a full A time before bed, but I'm still trying to figure that one out. The short PM nap at the end of the day seems to lend to OT by bedtime, but I can't get my baby to down easily without a longer A time. We seem to have endless nights of NW either way. He is a great daytime napper.
Is the A time before bed really packed with activity? Overstimulation can be a massive issue with bedtime and some babies around this age get overstimulated just having a bath...
Jenn, with L he was super active and high A time but also average-high sleep needs - just needed each in bigger chunks. So he would do 4hr A in the morning (heavy duty activity like swimming, crawling/walking around the park/shopping centre - not busy here ;) ), 2hr nap, 3ish in the middle A, 45min CN and 1.5-2hr to bed and then sleep like a champ at night. Everything in my day was geared towards having him in as many stimulating places with open spaces as possible, so he could interact or not as he chose and he did much better being able to take himself out of the equation than if I was trying to read when he needed to have a break.
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The A before his bedtime is consistently the same every night and I don't think it is too stimulating. We rarely are out and about in the afternoon/evening. For the first two hours, he is crawling around in living room playing on his play mat with his toys. The last hour or so is when Dad gets home from work and gives him his bath, gets him ready for bed, reads to him, cuddles and bottle. He does love seeing his dad so he gets excited and happy when he comes home. They play a bit, but I don't think it's keeping him from going to sleep well, and dad keeps it very low key before bed. I am usually always the one to come in and actually put him to bed, but that is just so I can observe how easily/or not he goes down. But he does not mind if Dad puts him down to sleep. And he has no problem falling asleep if he has had a full A time. He just lays down without a peep and goes to sleep. He just has to be tired enough, at least that is how I am interpreting it. It is the exact same way with his daytime naps too....if he's tired enough, no fight whatsoever and no crying. He takes great naps. When he moved to 3 h 30 m A time, the naps didn't fit so well anymore and we started having to do a short nap in the PM. I feel maybe that is throwing us off as I'm just not sure when he is ready to go down. The timing is hard. He fights if it's too early. So far, I think he goes down okay about 3 hours after a one hour PM nap. We are full of NW's though which seem to always coincide with him needing an A increase. We have struggled with a consistent 5 or 6 am early waking since he was about 12 weeks old. I used to feed at that waking. We also have very frequent NW's, often they happen all night long and I'm not sure if it's UT or OT or both. They seems to always get better with A time increases, so I lean towards UT, but they just do not really make sense. I do not know where our problem lies right now. Katherine on the main EASY board has started working with me to try to work towards figuring this out.
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Hi Jenn, our LOs are right around the same age, and both spirited, so I can relate! We had the SAME issue with BT where she was clearly UT. We figured it out because she would scream in her bedroom, but as soon as we brought her out of her room she calmed down. DH took her downstairs and let her have some quiet time for a bit, and about 20 mins later, she'd get fussy, we took her upstairs, and she was out for the night. So I knew her BT was too early on the days when she took the CN too late. It seems like with my DD, it does not seem to matter if she takes a 2hr nap or a 30 min nap, she still needs to same A time. So I did spend some time this weekend trying to move her naps around by bumping up her A time in the morning. Below is what our weekend looked like, and after weeks of 30-45 min naps, we are seeing some real improvement with a bump in A time.
WU-7
1st nap: 11-1
2nd nap: 4:15-5
BT: 8
My problem is, I'd like her BT to be 7:30 because I have to get her up around 6:30-7 before I leave for work on weekdays, but I just haven't figured out a better routine yet. Same as you're seeing though, my DD fights like crazy if she is UT. I actually shoot to have her be a little OT to err on the side of caution. If she is just a little OT, then she generally goes down no problem and sleeps pretty good.
Lots of NWs is so tough and frustrating. You mentioned that he is a good napper. Do you think he's getting too much daytime sleep? Since he's spirited maybe he needs more time to burn off energy during the day? Good luck!
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Kirsten,
Thank you so much for replying! I am so glad and relieved to hear someone with a spirited baby who has the same issue with A time. I have been searching these boards for two weeks trying to find someone who had this issue. I find also, that even with a short nap in the afternoon, mine still needs almost a full A time following to go down at bedtime without fighting. And he is exactly the same, he will scream and stand up in his crib and bounce if he is not tired enough, and as soon as I turn the light back on, he will calm down. In fact, I had this issue tonight. My baby woke all night last night, so I was concerned about OT today, and he only napped one hour this morning. When I put him down for afternoon nap, he slept for 2 hours and then I actually woke him at 4, which was two hours, so he could have time to get sleepy before bed. I planned on putting him to bed at 7:30, which would be our 3.5 hour A time, but he just wasn't even acting tired in the least. I tried but he screamed. It ended up being 8:10pm before I could get him to settle. I had to try about 3 times before he was ready. That was just over a 4 hour A time. So now I know never to allow that long of a nap of an afternoon. Normally I would never do that, but I was trying to catch him up on sleep from what I thought was a night if NW because of OT. Many times my gut says it is UT, but all you really hear so much of the time is NW being due to OT. I think I have perpetuated the problem many times being convinced it had to be OT when really it is UT. It's hard for people to believe sometimes that his A time is so high I think...
So your baby will go down for his second nap with only a 3 hour A time after a two hour nap in the morning? And then he goes down ok with 3 hours after a 45 min nap. I guess you could cap your morning nap at 1.5 hours and then 45 in the afternoon, which would put you at 7:30, but that may not be enough day sleep for your baby.
Yes, I have wondered if mine was getting too much day sleep. We just recently bumped up to the 3 H 30 min when he started NW again and that put him at about 2.5-3 hours of day sleep, so I don't think that is too much.
We have been trying this EASY:
W - 7
S - 10:30-12:00 ( Iwould try for 2 hour nap here, but he started waking at 40 min UT)
A- 12- 3:30
S - 3:30-4:30 (capped this nap)
B - 8
NW's improved greatly for a few days and then he started NW again. I tried putting to bed a couple of times at 7:30, he fought me like he was UT, and he was up all night on those nights. So I am almost positive he still needs the longer A time to bed. Many nights, the waking is just excessive...like every hour or more. And I just don't understand how even OT or UT could cause that excessive waking. Sometimes he is crying out of frustration, but acting like he is not very tired, so I think UT. He gets so frustrated if I'm trying to make him sleep and he is not tired, hence the crying I think. Sometimes he is just very restless. He is teething with his first tooth since last week and it has yet to come in. I can barely feel it. But he has been waking like this long before this tooth coming in and I have been medicating him at night but doesn't help with the waking.
I am just stumped on what to do. I know his NW's drastically improve with the increase in A time. Every time they get better...so I think he is UT. But then I just can't seemed to find a balanced routine to keep him in consistent sleep. He seems extremely sensitive to everything!!!
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The last hour or so is when Dad gets home from work and gives him his bath, gets him ready for bed, reads to him, cuddles and bottle.
We struggled - DH was so low key but L shook with excitement (quite literally his whole body would shake) for 2hr+ after DH got home. Great that he's doing the bath, bottle, etc. as that helps, but wondering if you could further help him cope by building some big tight hugs into the bit of BT routine that you do? Just to help dispel the energy from his body...
Many times my gut says it is UT, but all you really hear so much of the time is NW being due to OT. I think I have perpetuated the problem many times being convinced it had to be OT when really it is UT. It's hard for people to believe sometimes that his A time is so high I think...
UT is often misjudged ;) I too found that it was easier to err on the side of OT at this age. The OT wakings at night tend to be early in the night, within the first few hours of falling asleep for the night or an OT EW is consistently 9.5hr-10hr after going to sleep for the night. I found if DS was OT, he was less coordinated than usual so if my gut said he was UT, it was best to go with that :) Keep in mind these little spirited babies really do break a lot of the rules.
If he is UT and therefore not taking restorative naps, he can become OT by the end of the day.
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Keep in mind these little spirited babies really do break a lot of the rules.
yes they do! I often feel as you do, Jenny, that i have no idea if she was UT or OT and im constantly second guessing myself these days and feel like i just don't know what my DD needs. No fun. Hoping to get it sorted soon. Good luck to you guys!
Also, would you guys say a 40min is UT? For some reason i thought it was OT for us, but now I'm wondering. I also get 35min naps which i thought was OT but I'm also wondering if UT. It's so hard bc a simple 5min difference could actually be a HUGE difference! I never get the standard 30 or 45. It's usually 35 or 40. Maybe they're both UT? makes my head spin. ...sigh...:)
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Anything over 30 was UT/OS for us, OT was usually 20-25min - woke crying and would resettle reasonably easily most of the time. 35-40min I'd say in your case could well be UT/OS or both - the idea is that its the length of the sleep cycle and LO just isn't tired enough to stay asleep through the transition into the next sleep cycle or is too wired from the OS. The OT waking is before a full sleep cycle has happened :)
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Jenn, I've heard a few ladies on this board talk about a 2-1 transition as young as 8/9 months. I'm no expert (so Bec can correct me), but is it possible that he may only need one nap? You may be able to move around his A times enough to go to only one nap maybe? I'm starting to think that we might not be too far away from one nap (hopefully one long one!). The BT situation is tough. I can't believe that at only 8 months she knows when we are taking her into her room it means sleep time. Because as soon as I cross the threshold to her room, that's when she starts to freak out.
I also keep thinking that I need to find some activities for her outside the house. I work FT, but I was trying swimming for a while on the weekends. She hated the coldness of the pool (she is also Touchy), but I've been meaning to restart that since she is now loving the bath. Not sure what your days are like, but maybe he could use a few activities to tire him out?
That still seems like a lot of NWs. When you say they improved with longer A times, how much did they improve?
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I've heard a few ladies on this board talk about a 2-1 transition as young as 8/9 months.
Starting the transition, for sure - we did one full nap and a catnap of 20-30min at 8 months and went to one nap at 10.5 or 11 initially, then hit a snag and went back to two naps for a couple of weeks to recover him from some nasty OT and back to one nap for good at about 13 months.
I can't believe that at only 8 months she knows when we are taking her into her room it means sleep time. Because as soon as I cross the threshold to her room, that's when she starts to freak out.
This is really the key to the refusal - DS was like this around 5 months, it was crazy. I found having a quiet corner in his room for reading and giving him some A time in his room so he didn't associate it only with sleep, but also with other calm activities really helped.
I also keep thinking that I need to find some activities for her outside the house.
These don't have to be organised activities - L did really well with a trip to the park to explore or to the local pool for a splash/swim and even to the shopping centre to crawl/walk around in the air conditioning when it was hot. He now knows almost everyone who works at the shopping centre and they know him. These are all familiar places to him now and he still enjoys them because there's something new, new people, new lizard living in between the bricks or whatever, yk?
Agree that's a lot of NW's, Jenn. Can you link in your EASY thread so I can pop on and have a look at a bit more detail?
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Hi Kirsten and Bec,
Here is the link to the other thread where Katherine is helping me, I hope I'm doing this right? Not sure how else to link it.
7.5 mo spirited baby with high A time, how do I adjust EASY?
Caution...it's a long read. :)
The NW's drastically improve with A time increases, although I've only been able to get rid of his EW for a one week span, right after we dropped the catnap early 6 mo and moved his A time up to 3H 15 m. He slept blissfully for 8 days and then started crawling. Everything messed up again bc I had to decrease his A time temporarily when he started crawling, adding the catnap back for a week or so...and then I've never gotten his sleep back. Went back to the 3 H 15 M routine, and he started short napping, so already needed an A increase. That's where we are now...a huge mess.
Thanks for your help. I do appreciate it SOOOO much!
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Oh, and yes, I most certainly think he's headed towards the 2-1 transition, but he couldn't make through the full day right now w/o a catnap in PM. I get easily get a 1.5-2 hr nap from him in AM if his A time is long enough...and then a 30-45 min catnap in PM...I just have to figure out the window to bedtime. He just seems to need a longer A time there in order to go to bed. I knew he was going to be fiesty when I was pregnant with him....he was all over the place then. :) I do try to wear him out during the day, but he does a pretty good job of that himself. He goes all over the house. I have just had to childproof every single room. I do take him outside to play in the yard as much as the weather will permit. My family just has one car right now, so we aren't able to get out too much. Dad takes it to work. I know it would help if we could.
Any advice on how to medicate for teething so that I'm not giving him too much, but would like to keep him fairly pain free so we can best figure out this routine problem. I started giving ibuprofin yesterday as the tylenol didn't seem to help.
Thank you ladies!
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Hi Bec,
Can you give your input on this since you have a spirited one with long A times.
Last night my almost 8 month old woke up a 1am (I think due to teething). I gave more meds but it took 1.5 hours to get him back to sleep). Then he woke up at 6:15am ready to go for the day, standing and bouncing holding onto the crib rails and laughing out loud. I have a horrible habit of putting him in the swing to get him to 7am...I have been doing this forever because he has had this EW forever, but I stopped feeding at it when he turned 6 months old. He still wakes and is happy and ready to go. So I do use the swing to get to 7am out of desperation. He will not let me hold/rock him back to sleep...it agitates him and he pushes off me.
So he only had about 8.5 hours of sleep last night plus the time he was in the swing, so maybe 9.5 hours total. He woke up at 7:30 in the swing and was happy as a clam crawling around all morning. I put him down for AM nap early because I thought he would be OT. I gave him 3 h 20 min A time up to this AM nap. Normally we have 3 H 30 min A time, but before these NW's started again, he was beginning to give me 40 min naps with 3 h 30 min A times.
He slept 1.5 hours. I gave him second A time of 3.5 and I capped that nap at 45 min to maintain bedtime. He has been very difficult to get to bed the past few nights and he seems to insist on a full A time, even after a short 45 min PM nap. I got him up at 4:45 and planned to put him to bed by 7:15. I figured he would be tired after a short night of sleep. He would not go down at 7:15. It was 8:15pm before I got him to sleep, and that was with the pacifier, which I only have to use when he is not quite tired enough to settle on his own. We normally have no problems putting him to bed if he is tired enough. So he ended up with a 3 H 3 min A time after a 45 minute nap.
I had this same thing happen the night before, coming off of a 2 hour PM nap (we had a long night of excessive NW that previous night so I let him take a long nap...big mistake). He needed over a 4 hour A time (4 h 10 min) before I could get him to sleep.
His nightwakings have always improved when I increase his A times. Does this make sense to you? Could he possibly not be tired with these long A times, even after short nights? He is very spirited. I just cannot believe how quickly he goes from one A time to the next increase. I am always behind bc by the time I get him sleeping again, he's ready for an increase and he starts NWing all over the place again. I'm not sure even how to proceed from here...he seems so young for this. Depending on how tonight goes, I want to take a couple more days to make sure this is really the case. I just have such difficulty believing he could still handle these A times even after these short nights of sleep. Katherine is helping me as well. I just wanted to get your take on it too and maybe some advice?
Thank you so much,
Jenny
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His nightwakings have always improved when I increase his A times. Does this make sense to you?
Yep, makes sense :)
I just have such difficulty believing he could still handle these A times even after these short nights of sleep.
This is why its actually pretty important to push enough - if you stick around with too-short A times and he isn't getting enough restorative sleep because of that, he will become OT and the only way to help it is to push the A time to get good naps and BT.
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Thank you, Bec. Same advice I received from Katherine regarding pushing through A times.
He slept till 4:20am this morning, resettled with paci, but back up at 5:00am. I just can't seem to fix the EW. The other NW's have gone away with the increase in A's.
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JennI just want you to know I am going through the EXACT same thing with my LO who is just shy of 7 months. He was ahveing NW/EW even though I'd just upp'd his A time about 3 weeks prior and he did 3 good weeks then it all went to hell in a hand basket. They been helping me over on the EASY forum as well to see if we could figure out what was causing the EW. We've upped his A time to 3hr 15/20min, with a Full A time before bed and since he seems to be lower sleep needs and is barely doing a 10/10.5hr night we're pushing his bedtime a little bit later. I haven't read all your posts but it seems like discomfort might be waking my LO but he's just not "tired" enough to get back to sleep on his own. He woke at 4:30 this morning I rocked him and jiggled him for 45min before I got him back to sleep and rocked him till 6. BUT 4:30 is better than 3:45 which we were getting. So hopefully it's working..
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Hi Skadiver,
Thanks for posting. Good to hear some other moms are having similar issues. :) I hope you are able to get your baby's EW's figured out too. It's amazing how fast they change and grow...really challenging to keep up with them!
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It's very challenging.. It's no joke that just when you think you've got it figured out it all changes again. Sometimes I just want to give up EASY because some friends who don't follow it have babies that sleep through the night. But I know he's low sleep needs now and although he says textbook on the quiz I think he's just SUPER alert. I I also know with his reflux and with out that routine and this board I"d be so worse off than I am now. We're sticking it through. :)
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I hear you! I feel the same way at times because I have several friends with babies the same age as mine who have been sleeping through the night for ages now, and they don't have any routine at all! It is so very frustrating. But the book has taught me everything as a first time mom and I know it works well. I think my baby is just difficult to figure out.
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If you think about it though at this age they do have a routine, their babies just may handle variations and going off routine easier. They probably get up at a similar time, eat at a similar time and nap at a similar time, but their parents just aren't as aware of it. If you think about it like that then you know that they aren't so different in routine but their babies are just easier. :)
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Well, that is very true!! :)
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Hey Jenn and Skadiver,
Just wanted to say I'm going through the same thing at 11.5months. My DD has always has low A's for her age so we're doing 3.5 here, but now i'm stuck in yet another OT or UT/OT cycle with short naps and EW's. Just when i thought things were going great something changed out of the blue and here we are again trying to up those A's without exasperating the OT. I definitely feel alone sometimes too as all my friends seem to have great sleepers. It's good to pop on here and find that I'm not the only one! You guys are doing a great job! :)
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Hi all,
I thought I would join this thread as I have a 4mo spirited little girl! She is really testing me at the moment and I thought I would see if you had any wise words given that most of your spirited LOs are older...
We have just been through a tricky couple of weeks weaning the dummy (paci) and moving from 3hr EASY towards 4hr EASY, we have ended up at 3.5 for now. I have particularly been working on naps as she was a great one for power naps as I call them, rarely taking more than 30 or 40 minutes at a time. I have had some great support from Katie80 on the PUPD board through this time and we have made progress. She has forgotten about the dummy ;D and she has learnt to suck her thumb and transition some naps on her own. She still isn't sleeping through at night but I generally only have to get up once a night to feed and given that she is breast fed I think that's fairly normal. All good.
Or so I thought... this week she has been crazy! She has been fighting naps, yesterday she only had 1.5hrs all day! She has started fighting sleep at bedtime which she has never done. When she is awake she is manic - not crying particularly but shouting at her toys, arms and legs going crazy just FULL ON! I was thinking she was horribly OT but even after a good night's sleep (eventually) last night she woke up today in the same mood. What is the best thing to do, try to tire her out with activities or reign in the activities and keep things calm? How do you get out of one of these cycles?
I have managed to get her to nap for 1hr30 this morning by rushing in as I heard her stir to pat her back. Not great I know but seemed to work and at least she will have had a restorative nap and I got a break!
Thanks
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She still isn't sleeping through at night but I generally only have to get up once a night to feed and given that she is breast fed I think that's fairly normal.
That's actually really really good for an EBF baby ;)
I have managed to get her to nap for 1hr30 this morning by rushing in as I heard her stir to pat her back. Not great I know but seemed to work and at least she will have had a restorative nap and I got a break!
This is actually what I suggest with a spirited LO if they're OT. At this age, she's still learning to transition and its absolutely fine to help (to only have to pat her back at this stage is great!)
re: stimulation - things that helped us were: no TV during the day, only one complex toy (cause/effect type things) or two/three simple toys (stuff to grab at/chew on) ever at one time and definitely nothing that made electronic noises (rattle was ok, singing dancing toys were way OS). Going outside for a walk and chatting about what I saw was good. L loved tummy time (on tiles or a zigzag blanket - nothing on the floor in front of him or he'd cry, just wanted to get moving and was already up on all fours at 4 months. All this as well as keeping things low key for at least the last half hour of each A time and keeping our actual wind down ritual really short...
Taking a transition item from play to bed helped him with going to sleep too, just put him in bed with a toy from his last activity and he'd go to sleep on his own (he was a little older but he slept on me til 3.5 months and sleep trained in 3 days).
Sticking like glue to routine helped enormously too. Any chopping and changing just took ages to fix. We'd go swimming and if it interfered with a nap at all, there'd be 3-4 days of difficult sleep.
FWIW, 30-40min naps are often associated with overstimulation with spirited babies.
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Im going to post this in the general forum, but wanted some advice from other moms of spirited babies...
Hi everyone! I'm new here, and new to EASY. My son is just shy of 9 months. Until the last couple months he was a great night sleeper, so I never worried about having a schedule. After a couple months of worsening night sleep, I'm now starting to look at implementing more of a routine.
He is definitely spirited!
I'm trying to get him to go down on his own so he can hopefully learn to go back to sleep when he wakes. He's always done this at bedtime, but was nursed for naps and when he woke during the night. He has been fighting this change like crazy, and he just screams. I sit beside the crib and try to comfort him, but haven't been picking him up.
After looking at some of the sample schedules on this site, I've started to look at increasing my sons awake time. He has often only been going roughly 2-2.5 hrs. However when extending them this past week, things have gotten much worse! his naps have become almost nonexistent and he may wake after only 15-20 mins. He's also been waking multiple times in the night, and he's up around 4-5am, still tired, but he fights going back down and when he does its for less than 30 mins.
Today I decided to heck with the schedule and just put him down when he was sleepy (about every 2 hours). I also nursed him to help him windows. He went down without a fight and had 2 2hr naps.
I don't know what to do. With the screaming when it's time to go down... I've noticed a change in him during the day. He is more agitated, clingy, up and down. He screams if he thinks you're trying to sit with him, for diaper changes... Both things that would happen before being put down for a nap.
I feel like I'm hurting our relationship and it seems like its not helping.
Is this just his personality making him more resistant to a change in routine?
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I just discovered this thread and it's great to know that a lot of others are having similar experiences with their spirited LOs. I feel so frustrated sometimes when it seems like everyone else's babies are so calm and adaptable so it really helps me to know that there are many others experiencing the same thing and the challenges are because of DDs temperament, not bad parenting.
Sticking like glue to routine helped enormously too. Any chopping and changing just took ages to fix.
I find this is true of my LO (not that our routine is perfect yet ;D). DD and I don't go out (other than walks) more than once or twice a week because it wreaks havoc with her naps and nights. I've found that a lot of people don't understand how important routine is for a spirited baby and I feel a lot of pressure to take her out more often. I often feel judged for my choice to respect DDs need for routine by not dragging her around with me even if it means I get out less. Anyone else ever feel the same? Any tips for politely letting people know why we are choosy about what's worth going out for?
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I've found that a lot of people don't understand how important routine is for a spirited baby and I feel a lot of pressure to take her out more often. I often feel judged for my choice to respect DDs need for routine by not dragging her around with me even if it means I get out less. Anyone else ever feel the same?
Yep. Its me that deals with the weeks of OT fallout - night terrors, frequent night wakings, screaming nap wakings, awful behaviour, etc. though so they have ZERO say any more.
Its not worth worrying about - DS needs something and an adult wants something. They are the adult, he is the child, they can understand that their want can wait and happen later, they can understand the nature of prioritising (and if not, what are they really doing in my life?). He cannot, he doesn't have a concept of time yet, he's a child so DS' needs come first.
Any tips for politely letting people know why we are choosy about what's worth going out for?
I just say we'll be able to be there at x time, when L has had a sleep and is more able to enjoy himself. If they get upset with that, I say he's a bit difficult and not very pleasant to be around when tired and he cannot sleep when overstimulated. If they don't like that, stiff.
This year we said we weren't travelling for the holidays but people were welcome to join us here (not a bad place, a lot of people pay a lot of money for hols in the Whitsundays). Everyone was all keen then when it came time to organise it, no-one came.
Maybe that's all a bit harsh and maybe it will lose me some family good will but hey, I'd rather have my sanity ;)
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Hello ladies
I am also new here and my 7.5 month old is piece of work ;D. Lily & Bec I know what are you talking about... In my husband's family they think that I am well nicely said dragon (raw translation, I am not going to use bad word ;D) and that I am making out but I do not care anymore. It is amazing how adult people are selfish... This is my first (and only) kid and I am surprised how people react i.e. one grandmother ::). Our vacation was disaster (she was 3.5 months old) ... I have one question - maybe I am brave or crazy enough but I am thinking to go overseas when DD will be 11 or 12 months old and stay at least one month - or maybe little longer - but then I am thinking to put her in daycare because I would do some work. Does it make sense to think about that? Or not even think about it? ;D
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maybe I am brave or crazy enough but I am thinking to go overseas when DD will be 11 or 12 months old and stay at least one month - or maybe little longer - but then I am thinking to put her in daycare because I would do some work. Does it make sense to think about that? Or not even think about it?
If you go, plan on at least a week or two of mayhem while she settles in. Honestly if I was going overseas (though that'd be an exercise from Australia), I'd go for 2-3 months min at that age so as to enjoy at least part of it.
When L started daycare, he slept no more than 45min for the first 4 months, never 1.5hr til 5 months after he started - just too overstimulating ;)
It is amazing how adult people are selfish... This is my first (and only) kid and I am surprised how people react i.e. one grandmother
Agreed!! You know my thoughts on that... When DS was about 14 months, I finally heard for the first time that I am a good mum and I do know DS well. They have come around. We had a great relationship before kids and it was a bit rocky for a while but its getting better as L gets older.
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Tweetie, I'm pretty sure DH's family also thinks I'm a "dragon." ;) They also are not good at adjusting their timetable around our LO. Last week they showed up at 7 to visit her knowing that her bedtime is 7:30 and would not hand her over to me despite being told that she needed to get to bed. Needless to say, BT did not go well. I've got no advice on travelling overseas with your LO since the farthest my babe has gone is an hour from home, but listen to your instincts - you know yourself and your baby best.
I thought maybe I was overreacting by thinking it took days for DD to get back on track from an adjustment. Reading that others experience the same fallout makes me realize I'm not imagining it.
Right now we are visiting my parents and it is not going well to say the least! After a week of STTN she's back to NW, multiple resettlings after I put her to bed, and short naps. The good part is that my mom respects how hard it is when DD is off routine and helps out a lot with her (even taking care of her so I can have a nap ;D).
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If you go, plan on at least a week or two of mayhem while she settles in. Honestly if I was going overseas (though that'd be an exercise from Australia), I'd go for 2-3 months min at that age so as to enjoy at least part of it.
When L started daycare, he slept no more than 45min for the first 4 months, never 1.5hr til 5 months after he started - just too overstimulating ;)
Thank you Bec. Travelling from Croatia to States is also exercise especially if you are heading to midwest :). My DH could get max 1 month off (and we have a dog) so he would go back and I am still not sure do I have strength to stay with her additional 2 months (my DH would be stressed out with the third month :), because of his DD not me :)). In addition we are talking about the daycare with foreign language ... I started to teach her sign language...
Agreed!! You know my thoughts on that... When DS was about 14 months, I finally heard for the first time that I am a good mum and I do know DS well. They have come around. We had a great relationship before kids and it was a bit rocky for a while but its getting better as L gets older.
I will never heard these words ;D. We had great relationship before we got the dog, God they started to interfere that I could not believe it :o ... Things escalated just before I knew I was pregnant and then peaked during my pregnancy (you could just imagine what happened when they found out - actually my MIL) that their (HER) grand kid was on the way... and we do not live with them... ok this is not confession topic :)
Tweetie, I'm pretty sure DH's family also thinks I'm a "dragon." ;) They also are not good at adjusting their timetable around our LO. Last week they showed up at 7 to visit her knowing that her bedtime is 7:30 and would not hand her over to me despite being told that she needed to get to bed. Needless to say, BT did not go well. I've got no advice on travelling overseas with your LO since the farthest my babe has gone is an hour from home, but listen to your instincts - you know yourself and your baby best.
I thought maybe I was overreacting by thinking it took days for DD to get back on track from an adjustment. Reading that others experience the same fallout makes me realize I'm not imagining it.
Right now we are visiting my parents and it is not going well to say the least! After a week of STTN she's back to NW, multiple resettlings after I put her to bed, and short naps. The good part is that my mom respects how hard it is when DD is off routine and helps out a lot with her (even taking care of her so I can have a nap ;D).
Because some issues in the past (read above) ;D I do not have problems that DH's parents would just appear (that would be their style) but I know what are you talking about. We do not accept visits in the afternoon A time (we did and end up with screaming and freaking out nights, after which we had 2-3 days of AP - Baby Bjorn and hours and hours of walking outside - I was dead after waking from the night ). We said that visit time is usual between 12 - 3 pm, but need to be checked the same day depending on DD sleeping :).
When my DD was 3 months old we went regularly to my parents' weekend house and she slept great there and enjoyed (half an hour drive)... I do not know how that would look like now.
At this time point except NW, resettling ;D I am dealing with two things:
- she does not want to be in the car seat anymore (not even 10 or 15 min) - it is disaster (she loved it in the past)
-another thing - when I go out with her (Baby Bjorn or stroller) she fall a sleep very fast - it is good when she needs it but now I would like to go out between naps so she gets some fresh air. Lately we do not go outside very often or go when she needs to sleep..
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you could just imagine what happened when they found out - actually my MIL) that their (HER) grand kid was on the way...
Yeah, I got told I really must look after myself while PG because I was carrying her grandchild :P I did point out he was my child and I was fairly concerned for his wellbeing ::)
she does not want to be in the car seat anymore (not even 10 or 15 min) - it is disaster (she loved it in the past)
Car seat went on phases for us, usually when L didn't like it, it was because it was uncomfortable - too hot with all the comfy but unnecessary padding or the shoulder straps needed moving up to the next level because he'd grown...
-another thing - when I go out with her (Baby Bjorn or stroller) she fall a sleep very fast - it is good when she needs it but now I would like to go out between naps so she gets some fresh air.
Could you try going out straight after a milk feed and take a snack with you for solids? a picnic...
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Yeah, I got told I really must look after myself while PG because I was carrying her grandchild :P I did point out he was my child and I was fairly concerned for his wellbeing ::)
::) I really do not understand what is wrong with these women ... :-X
Could you try going out straight after a milk feed and take a snack with you for solids? a picnic...
I tried that but she fell a sleep after 45 minutes... maybe I will go out just for an half an hour
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Do you just keep her in the pram? Can you just do a short walk somewhere and then let her explore?
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Just need a moment to rest here ladies.
Today was just one of those days that was just 100% spirit 100% of the day. I just put DS to bed and literally flopped on the couch utterly exhausted. I spent the entire day running after him, listening to him yell, trying to stop him from destroying everything, and just handling the spirited little creature he is.
Now that he crawls there is zero downtime in the day. He cannot sit still. Ever. Changing his diaper and getting him dressed is a complete nightmare, he is thrashing around, screaming, fighting me...which obviously happens multiple times a day with diaper changes.
I long for the days when he would sit in my lap and I could read him a book, or play with a toy. I need to find ways to have him have some quiet time during the day, some time where he can relax a little and not be so intense, but I don't know how because he can't sit still. At least when there wasn't 5ft of snow on the ground we could go for a walk.
Anyway, sorry for the rant, it was just a tiring day that's all. I am nervous for the 2 - 1 nap transition in the next little while. Thanks for this support board and letting me put my head down. Tomorrow is another day.
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Hugs xx Those days are tough! Have you a local library or something where he can go for an explore?
I long for the days when he would sit in my lap and I could read him a book, or play with a toy.
They'll come again - just not for a while if DS is anything to go by ;)
I need to find ways to have him have some quiet time during the day, some time where he can relax a little and not be so intense
A big tight hug from you will help him let some of the pent-up energy go (we added it to our WD).
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Do you just keep her in the pram? Can you just do a short walk somewhere and then let her explore?
There is no way she would be in the pram anymore, I put her in the sit even though she is still not sitting (there are three positions so I put her on the 2nd IYKWIM). Sorry this is my first kid and since she is not sitting or crawling yet I am not sure what did you mean when you said explore?
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Oh my, 5 feet of snow with a newly crawling spirited LO! Are you totally housebound with that much snow? We don't get snow here, so I'm not sure what it means for you. Can you go for drives?
I remember when DS started crawling, it was crazy! It does get better quickly though - as they get used to it they calm down a bit and it starts to wear them out, although do spiriteds ever get worn out???
Have you child proofed your house? I'd do that first, so that he can't destroy anything. As soon as DS started crawling, we moved everything up high and bought those cabinet locks so DS couldn't get into cupboards etc. That made a huge difference because I could leave him in a room and know he wouldn't trash it.
My other sanity savers were finger foods - he would sit in the high chair for ages if he had things to stuff in his mouth - and really long baths. He loved the bath, and it was a more low key thing for me to do with him.
Big hugs to you - it's a tough time!
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Sorry this is my first kid and since she is not sitting or crawling yet I am not sure what did you mean when you said explore?
Sorry, roll around on the grass/floor then?
Oh yeah, baths were great for L - I'd just put him in 2 inches of water and he'd be happy in there for hours ;)
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As Mum to a fellow spirited one I sympathise, my DD isn't crawling yet and reading your posts remind me to make the most of that fact ;D
We too have had the car seat phase and it lasted for about 5/6 weeks, full on tantrum every time no matter how long or sort the journey. Thankfully just before Christmas it stopped as quickly as it started. It has scarred me though and I still wouldn't dare take DD in the car for much more than an hour for fear of it coming back!
The bath and actually just stripping DD's clothes off works for us too, during that difficult hour (5-6pm) just before DH gets home from work and when we have already exhausted every toy and game I resort to taking some of her clothes off and putting her on the bed so that she can roll around and play with her feet and she LOVES being tickled and having raspberries blown on her body. Failing that just putting her on a towel on the bathroom floor works (don't know if it is the lights or the anticipation of a bath).
It's always good to hear what others are doing to keep their spirited ones entertained and pacified as I am always looking for new ideas! Has anyone tried a jolly jumper or similar? I am thinking of trying as DD is 5 mo now.
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Have you a local library or something where he can go for an explore?
We do and on Wednesday's I take him to Baby Reading Group at the library which is a baby reading class. It's a lot of fun - the read stories, sing songs, play with puppets, books, bubbles, and get to interact with other babies. The last session ended in mid-December but starts again this week, which will be good :)
Are you totally housebound with that much snow? We don't get snow here, so I'm not sure what it means for you. Can you go for drives?
We aren't totally housebound, no...unless the weather is bad of course. I live in a small town, so there just isn't really a whole heck of a lot to do here in the winter. He's pretty good in the car, but generally falls asleep so if we go anywhere worth while (usually at least a 30 - 40min drive), I know he's going to fall asleep in the car and it makes our naps messy. Even still, it doesn't bother me too much if he has 1 messy nap day. We have a great park, beach, and splash pad which was great to utilize in the spring/summer/fall, but in the winter...just feeling housebound and a little trapped some days. At least if we had a mall or something we could go and just walk around, but we don't!
Bath time used to be our favourite time, but now...ugh. He is constantly trying to crawl in the tub, or he stands up and tries to climb out...which is slippery and dangerous. Now that he's crawling he doesn't want to sit on his bum, so bath times are pretty short these days. They usually last until he starts horsing around and then I take him out, because constantly fighting with him to sit on his bum usually results in screaming fits. I want bath time to be a happy time, so out he comes when the funny business starts!
I used to take him swimming at the indoor pool when he was younger, but as he got older and went down to 2 naps, the time the pool was open for him really interfered with his morning nap, which is the one I try to keep the most consistent. It's hard to be bound to naps sometimes too and not have that flexibility. But, we all know how important they are!
Anyway, I am going to try to find something for us to do today so I don't go completely bonkers :P
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Has anyone tried a jolly jumper or similar? I am thinking of trying as DD is 5 mo now.
I just bought a Fisher Price jumperoo for my DD (she's 4.5 months) and she loves it. She hasn't quite figured out how to jump yet, but likes the bouncing/swaying movements she can make in it.
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A big tight hug from you will help him let some of the pent-up energy go (we added it to our WD).
Lindsay - This is a great tip. Spirited LOs of all ages benefit from tight hugs and firm pressure on their bodies. Although DD is my first child, I'm a teacher so I have lots of experience with spirited kids. Because they are easily stimulated their insides are often "buzzing" and a tight hug can go a long way to helping them settle down. A heavy stuffed animal (one with beans or something similiar) laid on the shoulders, back or tummy can also help.
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Has anyone tried a jolly jumper or similar?
We used a Jolly Jumper and DS LOVED it!! It was a great way for him to burn off some energy but remain in one place. We started it when he was 6 months and he knew exactly what to do. Every time I got it out he would squeal with excitement, and he would go for honestly 30 - 45mins and he would just be laughing the whole time. He doesn't like it so much any more, but it was great while it lasted!
So, good news...I signed B up for swimming lessons on Thursdays :) They are from 9:30am - 10am so *hopefully* we can get away with that timing and have him take a nap when we get home. Even if he takes an OT nap, I can usually re-settle him.
Lindsay - This is a great tip. Spirited LOs of all ages benefit from tight hugs and firm pressure on their bodies.
Thanks for the tip :) I'm going to try it!
We have been working this week on independent sleep, because I never taught it until now because rocking worked so well and he'd go to sleep flawlessly (bad BAD Mama!). It's been going surprisingly well so far, though sometimes he flights to sit up instead of lie down in the crib. Everyday seems to get better though, and the last 3 nights he's gone down completely independently at BT. Naps are a little tougher, but we are working on it.
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Sorry this is my first kid and since she is not sitting or crawling yet I am not sure what did you mean when you said explore?
Sorry, roll around on the grass/floor then?
Oh yeah, baths were great for L - I'd just put him in 2 inches of water and he'd be happy in there for hours ;)
That was I thinking but I was not sure ;D. We got so much snow that I could hardly walk to a small grocery shop (and I live in the downtown of the capital ::)). No way of exploring at this time point :). However I took her with me in the Baby Bjorn and she was enjoying. Got pile of the snow on the nose and the edge of the paci ;D (I forgot to take umbrella). She woke up crying and after that walk she is so happy and calm.
My DD also loves to bath and we give her a bath her each evening :).
I will need to check library I am not sure do we have something for such a small babies....
Regarding the car seat - this phase lasts since she was 4 month old - God that 4 month destroyed us completely, everything went downhill... the same is with the long NW since then... so refusing car seat and NW phase of 3.5 months and there is still no signs it will end :P O and also it started with the stroller - for sleeping ok, but for driving just for the short time
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Because they are easily stimulated their insides are often "buzzing"
Quite literally - we could feel L shaking with excitement even 2hr after DH got home :o
We don't go to classes at the library - just the kids section is great here :)
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Hi ladies, I've been doing some reading along on this post since my DD is also spirited. I underestimated just how important it is for things to remain consistent for her. We had 5 days in a row of her STTN last week (after a lot of work to get there!). My ILs came back to stay with us for a couple of nights, and they freed up DH and I to go out for dinner. We were home for BT, but just having us gone and her usual routine be different led to a 2+ hr NW that night. I couldn't believe that just that small change would upset her so much! Ugh.
As for daytime stuff...I work FT, so I'm not very good with suggestions, but my DH has been stranded at home with DD some days because we currently only have one car. He's been giving her a lot of bath time because she loves it and has a ton of fun and it kills a lot of time since he can't go anywhere. Another idea that I'm going to work this weekend is a ball pit. My sister did this for my nephew. She bought a small inflatable baby pool and bought a bunch of those little balls that they use in the ball pits at places like Chucky CHeese. She just filled the little pool with the balls and he loved it! Granted, he'd throw the balls all over the place, but it was hours of fun. :D
Lindsay, I saw your note about Ben trying to climb out of the tub. You could try giving him the whole tub and not using the baby tub. We bought a non-slip, rubber pad for the tub, and no longer use the baby tub. That has made bath time even more fun for her and made her much less frustrated. She does still pull herself up on the side of the tub though, but I can be right there to make sure she doesn't slip.
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Hi ladies,
First I'd like to say that I'm so glad to find this forum here. There are so much information that really helps me a lot to understand my DD. DD is a week from 6mo and such an energetic and spirited baby.
I used to work full time and only got to stay at home since this year. I found her cues are really hard to read, her feeding is a mess. She only eat when she's asleep and only on me no bottle no paci or whatsoever. And her sleep -- at least 5 NW plus EW is the best we can get. and only after I read BW and I realised how many props we created. We are accidental parenting to say the least of it and it really makes me feel horrible. Since this year I tried really hard to get her on a EASY schedule and we still have so many problems to solve. (lately Ive been really careful not let her sleep while feeding her except for the DF and it is getting better). and before she's always bounced or walked to sleep. I thought I'd deal with it till she out grow it yet things just gone worse fast. She was able to sleep up to 6 hr at 3 month yet the regression hit bad and eventually she's wake up every 45 to 90 mins. I felt bad thinking that her sleep quality is so bad. So just since last friday DH and I decided to use shh/pat and PU/PD to teach her how to sleep on her own as her prop is getting so worse that she'd wake after only 20 min and it is harder and harder to put her down. things are progressing but we still don't have the gut to deal with naps. that is we only teach her sleep during the night but let my ILs to bounce her to sleep during the day. I'm wondering if that will reverse her hard work during the night.. ANy thoughts? ALso, I had questions about her night wakening. So when I read about this thread it seems to me that spirited baby can use more A time. About how do you ladies do to stretch the A time without OT or OS her? If she'd wake up 40 mins after put into bed is that a sign of OT? or UT?
Thank you so much! I was thinking to post to other section but feel that our problem cover many part and here seems to fit.
Jing
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Oh and I forgot to mention her daily EASY schedule looks something like this:
6-7ish wake up breastfeed for 5-10mins (she never eats well during morning..)
7:30ish 1TBSP cereal
8:30-8:45a nap1 for 30min-1hr
10:30 or 11a E
11:45ish nap 2 for 45mins or so wake up cry and MIL put her back to sleep and lately she can sleep anther 1.5-2 hr till 2:30ish
3:30 ish E
4:45 CN normally 20mins
5:15 some apple
6:15 bath and wind down
6:30-6:50 E
6:50-7p BT routine
7:05ish put to bed
10:30ish DF
2:30a ish another DF
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Hi Jing :)
Its best to post your EASY question on the EASY forum - you'll get plenty of help there, I promise.
Having said that, you'll probably find that a lot of what you're experiencing with sleep at the moment is developmental to an extent. At 6 months, there is a big mental leap http://www.thewonderweeks.com/index.php/about-the-wonder-weeks/your-babys-10-leaps/mental-leap-5 and this is when DS also started to really depend upon being in the same environment as he fell asleep if he was to resettle, so if he fell asleep or was too close to asleep in my arms and then I put him down, he'd not resettle once he woke but if he went to sleep in his cot and roused during a nap, he could see where he was and would go back to sleep better.
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hi becj86
thank you for your suggestion. I'll post there as well. But I find DD is easily OS during her A time. Any suggestions for A time without OS? As I'm suspecting that sometimes she is UT for nap so I try to stretch A time a bit yet she's either get bored easily or go all the way to OS (feels like she needs more A time than average..).
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Hi Jing,
My DD is just a few weeks younger than yours and we are also stretching A times at the moment to get good naps. Something I picked up from this thread, possibly from Bec I think, is to keep the last half hour of A time low key and it seems to work. We do any stimulating play, tummy time, etc. near the start of the A time and keep the last 30 minutes for playing with soft toy, looking at a book, etc. in a quiet room. By doing this is have managed to stretch the A time by nearly 30 minutes in the last couple of weeks. Also I found switching the TV off helpful. HTH. :)
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Hi everyone! Haven't been on here for a while - lots have happened since I got a read! :-[
Jing, re sleep - I'd post on the sleep boards, the ladies there are always very helpful! :) One thing only, when I sleep trained my DS I was sticking to the same principle at all sleep times, naps and night as well. IMHO LOs can get quite confused if you react differently in the same circumstances - it was especially true for my spirited DS2. I had to dedicate the time needed for a technique to work, otherwise it would all go to pot in a very short time...
And I agree with PP, it's best to have quiet time at the end of the A times! If she gets bored a change in the scenery can work well - take her to another room, or take a short walk or something. My DS liked to simply look out of the window and I would talk to him about what was happening in the street.
OK, anyone having an irregular eater??? The past few months here have been quite strange - DS is having less intense tantrums, he's screaming less but he has become very irregular at eating. I don't know what changed, but now he has breakfast an 1-1.5 after he wakes up and then eats only small portions, he doesn't snack but has soup before his nap and the rest of lunch after and again eating very little. Then for the afternoon tea he eats loads, and for dinner again just a few bites. He has a BT bottle after bath. To be honest, he tasted chocolate during the holidays and now he demands it for each meal time - of course he doesn't get it! Do you think I should rearrange meals and give him the main meal in the afternoon? I just don't understand how he doesn't seem hungry for such a long time... :-\
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By doing this is have managed to stretch the A time by nearly 30 minutes in the last couple of weeks. Also I found switching the TV off helpful.
Yep, this is my standard suggestion re: OS :)
OK, anyone having an irregular eater???
Yep! L is very odd with his eating too. He has phases of eating almost all protein... dairy cravings (obviously not something V will do) and also eats heaps either at lunch or dinner, rarely eats much breakfast at all.
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In our house TV is forbidden when G is awake ;D only and only when I trim her nails - then Baby TV for a few minutes ;D.
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I just need a place to vent some frustration with some moms who I know will understand. All of my friends have such easygoing babies so they don't always understand.
We've just had a bad few days/nights. We're back to 40 minute naps (1 hr if we're lucky) and after a few weeks of STTN, she's been waking up at night and taking 1-3 hours to get back to sleep. I feel like I can't get her A times right and I'm always second guessing about whether she's UT or OT or just needs help extending her naps. She was doing 2 hour naps with no help from me and sometimes she would cry a bit in the middle but could settle herself. Now I never know whether to go in right away or give her a few minutes to settle herself and no matter what I choose to do it never seems to work and then I'm left wishing I'd have made the other choice. I'm trying to increase A times because DD is almost 5 months now and I think that's part of the problem but it's hard to know how much A time to give her after a short nap. I've gone back to swaddling her and using the swing which feels like a major step backwards. I don't know if this is caused by her recent immunizations, discomfort from teething, a developmental stage, bad parenting, all of the above or none of the above. All of the this just makes me feel like I can't do anything right :(
To top it off, last night was her 3rd long NW and when I asked DH to go help settle her, he told me was out of patience (all he was doing was laying in bed listening to me try to settle her - sure must be difficult)!!!!! As if I wasn't thin on patience after doing the long wakes the previous 2 nights while he slept! >:( He did apologize this morning and as a peace offering, cleaned the floors today but I really could have used his help last night.
Sorry for the rant - I just needed to get that off my chest.
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Hey Lily_layne,
I know exactly what you mean, DD is 5 months and 1 week now and whilst she has never STTN she had settled into 1 NW around 4-5am and then suddenly a couple of weeks ago she started waking at 2.30am for no apparent reason (aaaarrrrghhh).
There is a wonder week (developmental leap) around that time and I have certainly noticed a lot of changes - plenty of attempts to roll, sit, try new sounds, etc. I think we might also have some teething going on under the gums.
I think the LOs also reach a point when they can handle more A time, ours has increased by 30 minutes in the last couple of weeks and I am still getting some short naps so am looking to push a bit more (currently on 2hr 15min).
I'm sure it's not bad parenting, it sounds like your DD is normally a good sleeper so you have done great. I think it is a phase that will pass whatever the cause (3 of our last 4 nights have been without the extra NW so fingers crossed for you too!).
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Thanks for the encouragement! It helps to know that others have gone through something similar - it reassures me that it can't be all my fault if it's happened to others ;)
DD has never been a great sleep but usually a lot better than this. Thanks for the tip on the 1/2 hour A time increase. I've increased it a bit (10 min) and was worried about doing too much too soon but I think she is ready for more than I'm giving her.
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Hi Lily_layne and NewMum....I'm sure the more experienced moderators here will give you some great help. We have found that it is best to err on the side of OT with a spirited baby. Certainly, you don't want them to get too OT, but I find it best to shoot for longer A times and (for us) even a later BT. We recently moved her BT back an hour to 8:30 and it made a huge difference in her night time sleep and naps (sleep begets sleep and all). I think I was always so worried about her being OT that she was ending up UT and that led to those long NWs that Lily_Layne mentioned. Good luck! :)
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Just wanted to offer my support too to Lily_layne and NewMum...we know, we've been there! My DS was always a horrific napper, he had a good spell at around 4 months, but from 5 - 6.5 months it was horrible, and nothing I did made one bit of difference. I would say at around 6.5 months things just started working and by 7 months he was taking (and still is taking) great naps. It's so hard!! I also don't know if it was developmental, teeth, or what!
I asked DH to go help settle her, he told me was out of patience (all he was doing was laying in bed listening to me try to settle her - sure must be difficult)!!!!! As if I wasn't thin on patience after doing the long wakes the previous 2 nights while he slept!
If it makes you feel any better, I don't think my DH has ever settled our LO. He gets way to frustrated and like your DH has little patience. It would take a lot for him to get out of bed to help me! I think he just feels like he is horrible at it (which, to be honest...he is! LOL :P) so what's the point?
The mods here are great, but I just wanted to offer some support to say that we've been there, and for us, it did get better :) I know that doesn't help right now, but there is hope!
And Kirsten, thanks for the tip on bath time :) I ditched the baby tub and now bath time is a lot more enjoyable! (Except for the fact that I am usually soaked afterwards from B either splashing, or turning the shower on when the water is running!)
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We have found that it is best to err on the side of OT with a spirited baby.
Thank you for this advice!!!!! Once I read that, I started thinking about what's changed over the last week and I think the big thing was that I was worried that her short naps may be OT related so I was putting her down earlier which led to fighting sleep (I had to break out the hair dryer every nap to calm her down:)) and UT naps. It didn't help that last week she put herself to sleep without her paci or any crying and I've been aiming for a repeat performance and I kept putting her down before she showed any tired signs hoping that would do the trick. I also think I'm confusing some fussiness from teething pain as tiredness. Now that I'm thinking about it, she's not as sensitive to OT as I think she is - on days where I've had no choice but to keep her up longer she has typically had good naps after the long stretch.
Lindsay - Thanks for the encouragement and sharing your experience. It's a good reminder that our LOs behaviour isn't always related to what we're doing - sometimes it just is what it is and we need to accept it and adapt. I'm certain that my spirited DD was chosen for me to teach me patience and to help me learn that I can't control everything in my life:) How did you change your EASY to manage the short naps? Right now I'm doing AEAS after a short nap but I'm wondering if EASAS would work better? Did you add in any extra naps on days when they were really short?
Last night was better but not great. She woke up at 12:30 and I was able to get her back to sleep in under an hour and this time she actually seemed like she wanted to sleep. She woke up again around 3 but DH got up and settled her (yay!) - it took a few tries - she would go back to sleep and then cry out again in 10 minutes but was down again by 4. Her cry sounded cranky so I think it was teething pain that woke her the second time. She cried again at 5:30 but settled herself. She is one happy camper today. No teething rash and no fussiness and all smiles. I stretched her A time to 2 h 20 and she went down easily - my fingers are crossed for a good nap!
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How did you change your EASY to manage the short naps? Right now I'm doing AEAS after a short nap but I'm wondering if EASAS would work better? Did you add in any extra naps on days when they were really short?
Luckily, for the most part even though his naps were short, I was able to extend them by patting him on the back. On the days that didn't work I would absolutely add in a late-day cat nap if I could, and failing that...an early BT. Sometimes as early as 6pm if I had to! If I remember correctly, I think I was doing the same as you - AEAS.
Just wondering, are you feeding through the night at all? At 5 months it is still common to have a NF so I am wondering if any of those NWs are hunger related?
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I usually feed her on the first wake up and any other wake up that's at least 4 hrs later. Sometimes I know she's not hungry but feeding is the fastest way to settle her and I get to sit down and close my eyes :)
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On the days that didn't work I would absolutely add in a late-day cat nap if I could, and failing that...an early BT. Sometimes as early as 6pm if I had to!
When you did early BT did your LO wake up earlier than usual?
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Thank you for this advice!!!!! Once I read that, I started thinking about what's changed over the last week and I think the big thing was that I was worried that her short naps may be OT related so I was putting her down earlier which led to fighting sleep
GLad I could help! It took me a while to realize it, but when my DD is fighting me at naptime, then she's probably not tired yet. So DH and I have taken to giving her another 15-30 mins of play time if she is really fighting us. Sometimes it just takes her a few mins to settle for her naps, but if she can't seem to settle down, then maybe try giving her a little more A time and then try again. Usually works for us.
And Kirsten, thanks for the tip on bath time :) I ditched the baby tub and now bath time is a lot more enjoyable! (Except for the fact that I am usually soaked afterwards from B either splashing, or turning the shower on when the water is running!)
Haha! Same here. I give her a washcloth of her own to play with in the tub, and her new thing is to throw it out of the tub, which means a soaked washcloth is landing in my lap a few times a night. :) Glad B's enjoying it!
On the days that didn't work I would absolutely add in a late-day cat nap if I could, and failing that...an early BT. Sometimes as early as 6pm if I had to!
When you did early BT did your LO wake up earlier than usual?
I've done the same as Lindsay. If we have short naps, then we usually have to fit in a short CN, and often times we just suck it up and take her for a drive to get her to BT. I'm not sure what others have had as their experience with early BTs, but for us it never worked well. Anytime we tried for an early BT, she would wake up 1-2 hours after BT and be up for 30-60 mins. I'm not saying don't try an early BT, but if you see this pattern with your LO, then you may have to do the APOP CN (stroller, drive, whatever works) and keep the BT the same.
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When you did early BT did your LO wake up earlier than usual?
I don't think so, but during this time I also remember that he would still have OT wakings about 45mins after he went to bed, but I could usually settle him. We've dealt with EWs on and off throughout and for various reasons - teeth, too much daytime sleep, etc.
We have found that it is best to err on the side of OT with a spirited baby.
I thought about this today! B seemed really tired this morning for no apparent reason, and was acting like a bit of a bear, so I put him down for his AM nap 10mins earlier than usual. He went to sleep perfectly fine, but sure enough...45mins later he was up. I laid him back down and gave him his blanket and soother and he was back to sleep quickly, but I was cursing myself for not sticking to his usual A time. In reality, I think his gums were maybe just a little sore. Crazy how 10mins can be the difference between a 1.5hr nap and a 45min one!
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When you did early BT did your LO wake up earlier than usual?
I know my DS is older, but for us EBTs have always worked. He usually wouldn't wake earlier in the morning, but it gave him an opportunity to catch up on sleep. This was especially good when we were going through 2-1 transition - we had EBT for over a month and it worked wonders!
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EBT do not work for my LO as he does not tack on lost day sleep. If we have a bad nap day I'll apop a CN if need be, or just apop the end of the 2nd nap.
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Thanks for the ideas and support! Yesterday we had a great day (2 long naps that I had to wake her from) so I was feeling optimistic about having a good night but no luck there. She was up at 10:30 to eat and then went back to sleep fairly easily but was up and ready to play at midnight - it was past 3 before she went back to sleep :o The good news is that DH voluntarily got out of bed to help and he's going to try to leave work early today so I can get some rest. The bad news is that this is our 5th night with multiple/long NWs I have no idea what's causing this. It doesn't seem to matter how our day goes, DD is waking up multiple times. The only thing I can figure out is that the more she sleeps in the day, the longer the NW. Has anyone else had similar nights?
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The only thing I can figure out is that the more she sleeps in the day, the longer the NW. Has anyone else had similar nights?
I was actually going to mention this to you as soon as I started reading your post. I limit my DS's daytime sleep to about 3hrs - 3.15hrs, maybe 3.5hrs as an absolute max. Anything beyond that, and we are having crib parties at 3am. I know Kirsten had similar issues and I think she has pushed their BT back quite a bit.
Now that you know she CAN have good naps, I would stick to whatever A time you used yesterday that worked, but limit each nap to about 1.5 - 1.45hrs (not sure what you capped them at yesterday?) Hopefully that will help :)
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thanks for advice. I capped her naps at 2.5 and 2h yesterday. I think it was too much day sldoes
She just put herself to sleep for her nap which she rarely does so at least some good things are happening.
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Ah, just realized that she is just under 5 months old. So, I would say 2 x 2hr naps is probably sufficient, maybe a little less even, and no CN :)
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Maybe you posted this early, and I missed it, but how much daytime sleep is she getting now?
As Lindsay said, we also had a lot of long NWs. Moving her BT back an hour helped a lot. You may not need to move it a whole hour, but maybe see if doing 30 mins later would work?
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FYI I limit DD's day sleep to 3.5hr (she is 5.5 months old) so ideal day for us is 2 x 1.5hr naps and a 30 minute catnap. I don't always manage to get that much out of her but as long as she gets c.3 hours she seems to be ok. Fingers crossed we haven't had a long NW in quite some time so it seems to be working.
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When she was STTN earlier this month she was getting around 3.5-4 hours. This last week with the short naps, it's been as little as 2 hours on some days but yesterday was close to 5 hours. I'm fairly certain that 5 hours was way too much and was the cause of the long NW - I think I can definitely rule out OT as the cause of the NWs. She's consistently had lots of NW this last week, but on days when she's slept less she actually wants to go back to sleep so I agree with all of you that limiting her day sleep will probably help.
Moving her BT back an hour helped a lot. You may not need to move it a whole hour, but maybe see if doing 30 mins later would work?
How much A time do you give your LO before bed?
DH's vote is to drop the catnap but I think moving her BT back might be better because without the CN we'll either have way too much A time before bed (3-4 hours) or we'll have to shorten her day too much. She'll be 5 mo in 2 days so I think she might be too young to go without the catnap yet, but if you think otherwise, please let me know.
Things aren't all doom and gloom today - I think we may have her A time figured out. She put herself to sleep for both naps which she almost never does!!! I think DD knew she needed to do something to make up for last night:)
Thanks for all of the advice - it's really helping my sleep deprived mind sort all of this out.
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I agree with you lily_layne, we couldn't manage without the catnap either yet as I don't fancy the potential consequences of 3-4hr A time before bed or super early BT ;)
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NewMum - How much A time are you doing before BT?
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How much A time do you give your LO before bed?
Her A time before bed is the longest. If she's at home, then her 2nd nap usually ends around 4 or 4:30, so she'll have a 4 or 4.5 hr A time. But on days when she goes to the babysitters, she usually fall asleep for the 30 min drive home, so then she only has a 2.5-3 hr A time. She still falls asleep no problem though. We are finding the fixed BT to be working. Her naps are just about fixed too, but we go more on her cues than on her A time (DH's policy and it's working, so I won't argue). :)
NOt sure on dropping the CN vs moving BT. I think you have to see what works best for your schedules and your LO. If she fights the CN, then maybe she is ready to drop it?
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We do a shorter A time before bed. DD tends to wake up from catnap around 5.15/5.30 and BT is 7.00/7.15 so A time is around 1hr45 and it usually works fine.
Has anyone else had bath time problems? DD used to LOVE the bath but has screamed (tears and everything) the last few nights for no apparent reason. Last night was ok as I took a bath with her but tonight was back to screaming again. Any suggestions?
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Our A time before bed is pretty close to our other A times throughout the day - usually between 3 - 3.5hrs. We pretty well work on a set BT now too, unless he wakes from his PM nap really early, BT is usually around 7:45pm (bottle at 7:30pm).
Dropping the CN is hard, and you will probably find that some days they need it, and others they don't. I think we frequently switched back and forth between having a CN and a later BT and not having one and an early BT, dependant on whether he would actually go down for the CN or not.
Has anyone else had bath time problems?
We did around 6 months when DS learned to sit on his own - he didn't want to be reclined in the baby tub at all, but he wasn't quite stable enough for us to take the infant seat out of the tub yet. I did the same as you and took baths with him for probably 2 or 3 weeks until he could sit on his own without the insert. Wasn't a huge deal for me because I love the bath myself so I found it kind of fun :)
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Thanks Lindsay, that could be it as DD is learning to sit at the moment. I have also noticed that she doesn't like being placed on her back on the activity mat so much either and when I sit her up and prop her against me to play she is much happier. All makes sense now! :)
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I have also noticed that she doesn't like being placed on her back on the activity mat so much either and when I sit her up and prop her against me to play she is much happier.
As soon as my DS learned to sit up, he completely refused to be on his back at all. You should see me trying to change his diaper or get him dressed...it's a nightmare. I found once he learns something new, forget about anything he did before! Now that he crawls do you think I can get him to sit...ever? Nope.
You will probably find that as soon as she sits on her own and is stable, she won't need to be reclined in the tub, and bath time will be happier :)
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Hi- quick question. Have a 4.5 month old spirited son and wondering about a mobile above the crib. Will it entertain him while he falls asleep and when he wakes up early, or will it distract him from falling asleep?
Thanks!
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For us, the mobile was only good for entertaining her. It kept her awake if we put it on at nap or sleep time. We bought one that we could remove easily so we only put it up for times when it made sense, like if she woke up early while I was getting ready for work or something, then it would buy me another 10-15 mins.
On the bath topic, like I said to Lindsay, I found it easier to give her the whole tub, instead of the baby tub once I was confident in her sitting ability. I think spirited babies are big on having space to move (at least mine is!)so it was easier when she had room for toys and stuff. I just bought a non-slip mat for the tub.
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I agree with Kirsten on the mobile, we just use it for when she wakes up to buy us another 20 minutes. It makes DD squeal with excitement so definitely not a wind down thing for us!
Thanks for the advice on the bath, we do use the big tub but DD was lying down in it, she seems much happier sitting up in the tub! :)
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I just wanted to give you ladies a quick update. Thanks to the advice to increase her A time and err on the side of OT, our nights have gotten a lot better - only 1 wake up on each of the last 2 nights. BT has been a nightmare on the last few nights (this 3-2 transition is tricky ;)) but I'll take that over the long NWs any day! Thanks for helping me weather that storm!
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Thanks to the advice to increase her A time and err on the side of OT, our nights have gotten a lot better - only 1 wake up on each of the last 2 nights.
Great to hear!!!
I found the 3 - 2 transition awful. It was so awkward and it felt like every day was different, and the evening was an OT battle. APOP as much as you need to for the time being. We went on LOTS of evening drives! Worked out well because it was summer and I could get ice cream LOL :P The transitions are so hard, but once we were on 2 naps, I started for the first time getting 2 x 2hr naps a day :) That went downhill a few weeks later, but I think that was more a case of me not adjusting his A time. I am SO not looking forward to the 2 - 1 transition :-\
1 NW at this age is still perfectly normal! We usually toss between 1 NW and STTN at 9 months!
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I found the 3 - 2 transition awful. It was so awkward and it felt like every day was different, and the evening was an OT battle.
That's exactly how I feel! Pretty much every evening, I find myself wishing that it was any other season than winter so that we could go for a walk to get in a short CN. I usually end up having to rock her just to get it in which I guess isn't all bad because 20 minutes to sit and cuddle my girl is sometimes kind of nice:)
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Hi lily lane I just stopped by to give you support :). I have had problems with long NW since my DD was 4 months old (now she is 8 ::)). Last few weeks they started to decrease with the help of specialists here :). You could find me on general sleep issues (3-2 transition problems), now I am on NW ;D and I think I will end up on naps ;D. It goes in circle. One thing is solved another appeared ;D but if this long NW will sort out (as it looks like, I am afraid to say loudly ;D) then my life will be easier. Maybe I am naive, whoever things the opposite please let me believe in that just for short ;D. I always comfort myself - this is just a phase and it will pass :).
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Hi everyone! Looking for some support from other spirited baby mamas. I have 9 mo b/g twins and DS is VERY spirited. Luckily DD is textbook/angel but it it's still quite a handful with both of them. What I really need help with is sleep and NW. DS is still waking 3-5 times a night. He naps fairly well. Usually 2 one hour naps per day though he often wakes after 30 min and we do shhhpat or PUPD to extend to a full hour. We have a good bedtime routine and he goes down easily but the NW are so frequent that my husband and I are starting to loose it. Keep in mind that DD still gets up 1-3 times a night too (luckily usually only once unless like now she is teething). We are a very sleep deprived family. And in order to get him to even sleep as much as he does, we still swaddle him. He uses the woombie which is stretchy and he can still move his arms enough to roll around, sit up, etc but it keeps the flailing to a minimum and is the only way to get him to settle. Any other moms out there still swaddle their almost 10 month old or am I nuts? Anyway, just looking for some advice, tips or even just a little "yeah been there" kinda thing. I need to know that I'm not the only one out there with this problem and if I am, what the hell am I doing wrong?! Help...?
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Hi Shelby! Yes, we've all been there, believe us! The ladies here are fantastic and have some great ideas for our spirited little monkeys!
DS is still waking 3-5 times a night. He naps fairly well. Usually 2 one hour naps per day though he often wakes after 30 min and we do shhhpat or PUPD to extend to a full hour.
Sounds like an OT build up to me. 30 min naps are classic OT, and overall for the day 2 x 1hr naps is a little under norm for the sleep deptartment. 2 x 1.5hr naps is probably what you want to aim for. The NWs could likely OT related as well as I find my DS has a hard time settling into a deep sleep when he's OT.
What are your current A times? The ladies on the EASY board are fantastic and should be able to help with your overall routine if you post your day, but I bet if you were to work out those naps and extend to 2 x 1.5hrs it should take care of the OT, and the nights should get better :) Is there anything else that could be going on ie. teething?
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Hi and thanks for the reply! It's not teething. This has been going on from day 1. I have suspected chronic OT but I don't know how to remedy. He just wakes up from his naps and nothing gets him back down. His A times are about 3.5 hrs. Thanks for the support and if anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear them. Should I post on the easy board?
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I would absolutely post on the EASY board, those ladies can look at your routine and let you know if anything sticks out :) Your A times seem okay, maybe slightly on the high side - we are about 3hrs 20mins, but there are others who are at 3.5 at this age also.
We went through 30min naps for a LONG time...honestly every nap from about 6 months - 7.5 months, and nothing would help. I did A time adjustments and routine tweaks and you name it, then it just sort of corrected itself. I know that doesn't help you, but it was just sort of a phase we went through.
Have you considered over-stimulation? This can also cause short naps in spirited LOs. How do you normally spend your A time? TV doesn't normally impact my LOs naps, but I hear that it can cause OS in spirited babies.
I would post your routine on the EASY board and let those ladies take a look, they are fantastic and should be able to help! :)
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Ok thanks. I posted on the easy board so hopefully ill get a response soon. Hubby and I are at our wits end. It's 5 am as I write this and DS hasn't slept for more than 1.5 hrs at a time all night. The worst part is how he wakes and just starts crying and screaming like someone is stabbing him. It's so sad and stressful! Sometimes the only thing that will soothe him is a nursing but we've tried sooooo hard to keep him from needing to nurse to sleep that I try not to resort to that. Poor little guy. Poor us. :(
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PS- we don't watch tv but I do wonder if there are other things that OS him. We have a very stimulating, loud, energetic music class we go to once a week as well as a once a week play date. I also take them to our local playground a couple times a week and the grocery store once a week or so. Do you think maybe we need to stay home or keep activity to a minimum until we get this sorted?
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I found with my LO as long as i was home, tv off only soft play 30min before naps he was fine. If we did have a lot of people over etc it may cause a wonky night but I'm not going to tell people they cant come over and its only once in a great while so i dont mind.
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We have a very stimulating, loud, energetic music class we go to once a week as well as a once a week play date. I also take them to our local playground a couple times a week and the grocery store once a week or so. Do you think maybe we need to stay home or keep activity to a minimum until we get this sorted?
These activities once a week or a trip to the grocery store shouldn't be enough to cause too much OS I wouldn't think. And honestly, if you stay home all the time I will bet that you will go completely stir crazy trying to entertain a spirited LO! Sometimes getting out is important too :)
I agree, a good wind down routine helps before nap times and BT. Do you have lots of toys that have flashy lights/songs, etc? I find those can cause of bit of OS and I often have to take toys away from DS because he gets frustrated with them.
We have issues with any kind of wind down routine right now because DS cannot stand to stay still...ever. So sitting and reading a book or something of that nature is completely out of the question.
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It goes in circle. One thing is solved another appeared
Thanks for the support, Tweetie. I hope the long NWs have stopped.
And in order to get him to even sleep as much as he does, we still swaddle him.
I wouldn't worry about the swaddling. I know someone who swaddled their son until he was 2 (they used a bed sheet) - he just slept better that way. Spirited kids often do well with some tightness or pressure on their bodies - it helps them settle. If you don't want to do a full swaddle any more, maybe a tight swaddle with arms out or a tight diaper shirt might do the trick.
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You are welcome lily lane :). Unfortunately not , last night 2.5 hr party ::).
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We had a 2 hour NW last night too :( DD was really upset, teething and a cold I think... Such a shame as she slept through the previous night for the second time this week. Just as things look up another challenge comes around the corner! Fingers crossed for us all tonight.
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Hi ladies, I just wanted to say hi as I have just joined the EASY mods who moderate this support thread.
Please do post on the main EASY board if you would like help on more general issues from mamas outside of this thread :)
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Hello! I'm new to the forum and new to bw! I have a and almost 4mth old who is the epitome of spirited. I've been working on getting her on at least a 3 hr EASY, however due to reflux I have always fed her about every 2-2.5 hours since if she eats too much she inevitably spits it all back up. I'm able to keep her to about 2.5-3 hr per feeding and started dream feeding this week. Unfortunately she has started taking only 45 minute naps, literally on the dot. I have tried to get her back to sleep but she wakes up usually happy and smiling so I've tried to cut down the A time to make sure she is getting enough rest. She never sleeps longer than a 4-5 hour block at night before she is usually up every 2-2.5 hours until about 7. One of those times I know is for hunger but the other are not.
Just this week she has started screaming any time I start to swaddle and she get incredibly agitated very quickly and is soon screaming at the top of her lungs and nothing, not even being picked up calms her.
We have slowly weaned her from being bounced to sleep to sleeping in her bassinette. She rarely falls asleep on her own so we are wanting to work on that and more sleep at night since I am exhausted all the time. She is a fighter and it kills me to see her cry and cry, even when I am trying to soothe her. Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated it. She is a little on the small side and because she is so spirited I worry that pu/pd will rile her up more. Any advice would be SO appreciated from a very tired first time momma.
Here is a typical EASY:
7am-E
7:20-8:15/30-A
8:30-9:15-S
9:30/45-E (this is where I try to hold her off a bit by changing diaper, etc. so as to not feed her so soon)
9:45-11ish-A
11ish-12:00pm nap (depending if she goes down easily, she never goes down on her own-again nap is exactly 45 minutes)
12:30-12:50 E
12:50-1:45 A
1:45-2:30 S
3-3:25 E
3:30-4:30 A
4:30-5:15 S
5:30-E
5:45-6:45 A(bath, stories, wind down)
7:00E
7:15/30 (again not going down on her own, but she does tend to do BT much easier than NT) S
10pm-Dream feed
2am (stirs, husband picks up to get her back to sleep)
3am-E
6:30am E
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Mdittmer, I had a reflux baby to and instead of doing EASY, I would do EAEASY.
You may need to transition to this to get better naps out of her. I'm not an expert in A times, but I'm sure at 4 months my DS was up for longer than 1 hr 15- 1.5 hrs between naps.
I'm sure someone else can chip in here to give advice on what the A times could be pushed out to.
Good luck!
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Shelby- yikes on the twins! I'm impressed with anyone who survives babyhood with twins! Unfortunately, you may find that your spirited DS has different sleep requirements and A times as your DD, which I would imagine is tough with 2! I was often so worried about OT and OS that we ended up with a lot of UT naps and nights. My DD though goes to a babysitters 3 days a week while I'm at work, and there shes around 3 older kids with Lots of activity!
For those with long NWs, we finally figured out that we could tell if it was UT or teething/pain. If when we went in there, she stopped crying (and wanted to play!) then we knew it was UT. If she was still upset, even off and on, after we went in, then we knew it was some sort of discomfort. We try to use that to figure out if we need to tweak anything or if she just needs some meds or comfort.
Hi mdittmer, I'm also no expert and have no reflux experience, but my DD fights me sometimes too, but seems to settle when I put her down. It's like she wants a chance to get comfortable and settle in to sleep rather than having me hold her. It means less cuddle time, but it saves the fight!
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Hi mdittmer - welcome!
my DD fights me sometimes too, but seems to settle when I put her down. It's like she wants a chance to get comfortable and settle in to sleep rather than having me hold her.
My DD is the same way. She just seems to need her own space to go to sleep. It took me a long time to figure it out but when she arches her back it's time to put her down. Sometimes I even need to back off and not touch her for a few minutes (even if she's wailing) and then she seems ready for me to comfort her and help her get to sleep.
Average A time at 4 months is between 1h45 and 2 h. Slowly increasing A time might help with the naps.
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thanks ladies! i'll try your suggestions and try to get on the reflux board. i have to say today we had some small victories. i went in to try and wts at around min 30 of her nap, which didn't quite work, but at the 45 min mark i sh/pat and she went back to sleep! she slept almost 2 hours and it was amazing! she also went down quickly at bt, though still with the help of a pacifier (though it isn't a prop for her so i don't mind using it)
i cannot tell you all how much comfort i've found today after finding this forum. reading through all the threads and seeing that my little charlotte is not the only one has made me feel so much calmer-especially as a first time mom!
thanks again! i'm sure i'll be back... :-)
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i cannot tell you all how much comfort i've found today after finding this forum. reading through all the threads and seeing that my little charlotte is not the only one has made me feel so much calmer-especially as a first time mom!
Happy to hear you're feeling calmer. This site does the same for me! It's so great to know that others have gone through the same thing - it reassures me that the problems we're experiencing aren't my fault.
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ladies,
i have been using shush/pat and it seems to be working at times, but i know it takes time. she'll be 4 months on the 12th and i wondered how pu/pd has worked with your spirited ones or if you have done something different? i think it would rile her up more with her 0-60 personality :-)
also, i am working on winding down and have not been able to figure out a way that really calms her. she gets SO crazy before going to sleep (even when i'm keeping to the 1:45-2hr A time). any suggestions on things that have worked?
she was a disaster yesterday. barely could get her to sleep during the day and she was up a lot of the night with my dear husband who let me get some much needed sleep.
thank you so much. it's been a rough few day :P
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i am working on winding down and have not been able to figure out a way that really calms her. she gets SO crazy before going to sleep (even when i'm keeping to the 1:45-2hr A time). any suggestions on things that have worked?
My DD was like that to but it's slowly getting better. Loud white noise often helps to calm my LO and we turn it down and leave it on for her whole nap. Vigorous rocking also sometimes works. If I absolutely can't calm her, putting her down crying and then giving her the soother and patting her works to get her to sleep (she usually goes to sleep in under a minute this way). I also often give her the soother during the WD if she's not calm - sometimes she plays with it and sometimes she sucks it. If she's really upset, sometimes it takes a few tries to get her to take the soother but once she does, she passes right out. It's not a prop for her, so I use it as often as she needs it.
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PUPD is something I've only seen work for one spirited baby on here. It was a disaster with DS and it is a last resort method if shush/pat is used consistently for at least a week with no progress at all.
A minimal wind down worked best for us, and something to link through the transition from play area to cot, so I brought a toy he'd been playing with -a leaf or whatever- and closed the blinds, turned on the fan, put him and the leaf in bed and gave him the chance to settle. Used shush/pat if required. TBH, DS was a little older then than your DD is now. I had him sleep on me til 3.5months and sleep trained in a weekend. It's critical to be getting her sleep window though, if you're wanting her to sleep independently at this age. I did keep things calm for a while before nap time, so a walk around the garden or the house looking at things and chatting with me with plenty of body contact helped to calm him. A big tight hug helps A lot of spirited LOs release their energy and calm down for sleep.
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Mdittmer, I'm sure I've read that PU/PD isn't recommended for babies with reflux.
My DS was the same - even just going into his room to get a nappy would make him scream his head off. The only thing that worked for us was pushing out the A time and getting his window right. He had a short wind down. Change nappy, swaddle, carry into room singing our sleep song, put him down saying our sleep phrase and then a couple of pats. Anything longer at that age would set him off.
GL!
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Yes PUPD is a big no no for LOs with reflux. It sloshes the stomach contents up into the esophagus causing the burning sensation.
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thanks everyone. we will keep finding some modified version of sh/pat. i feel like it somewhat agitates her more! bless her heart.
another question, i've been trying to break her 45 min nap cycle that she is on to no avail. i've tried putting pressure when she jolts. i've also tried to put her back to sleep since she often ends up crying, but the only way i seem to be able to do that is to pick her up and walk around with her.
i've tried w2s, but i think i must not be waking her enough? she will stir a tiny bit, but it is extremely difficult to get her to rouse at all. any suggestions on what to do. i poke her lightly, try to tickle her face, or under her nose, but nothing. if only she would stay sleeping that soundly the whole time! ;)
thanks for all the help!
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i've been trying to break her 45 min nap cycle that she is on to no avail.
How old is she and what is her current A time? You might just need an adjustment :)
That said, my DS was pretty well a short napper until close to 7 months...yikes. I turned into a crazy person. I drank lots of wine LOL :P. All is better. That is until a few days ago when he started refusing his PM nap. Lordy it never ends ::)
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thanks lindsay! i know it is pretty normal to have shorter naps at this age (she will be 4 mths on the 12th of october). right now i have her A time between 1:45-2hrs. i haven't figured out her window quite yet and keep trying. do you think it should be longer or shorter?
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mdittmer - How are things going? Are you still getting short naps? Lately with my LO, I've been getting a few days of good naps and then it's back to short naps until I increase her A time again. I would try increasing you LO A time by 10 minutes or so for a few days to see if that helps.
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I would try increasing you LO A time by 10 minutes or so for a few days to see if that helps.
Agree, once she reaches 4 months she should consistently be around the 2hr mark :)
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How is the 3-2 transition going for you lily_layne? Have you tried the early BT? If so how did it go?
We are still going through it, on days when I get good naps the catnap is down to 15mins and I am having to APOP it in the buggy or car. I haven't tried the early BT yet because I am afraid of early WU but also I would struggle to fit enough feeds in if I did early BT or the gap between our last feeds would be pretty short and I don't think DD would be very hungry. However the catnap is so short now I think I might just have to go for it one day soon ...
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I'm ready to be done this transition - it feels like we've been doing it forever! DD has been having good morning naps but only 40 min in the afternoon so most days she still needs a short CN.
Have you tried the early BT? If so how did it go?
We have tried EBT on a few occasions. Most of the times she went to sleep easily but then was up 30 min later and ready to play for another hour. She seemed to think it was nap time not bedtime (or she was OT because BT was still too late - not sure which it was :-\! Once we got her back to sleep, she had pretty good nights. I tried EBT again on Sunday because we'd had a busy day with very short naps and that night she slept 13 hrs! We haven't had any EWs because of EBT.
I would struggle to fit enough feeds in if I did early BT or the gap between our last feeds would be pretty short and I don't think DD would be very hungry. However the catnap is so short now I think I might just have to go for it one day soon ...
The gap between DDs last two feeds is often pretty small (usually 2 hours) but it seems to work. I usually feed her when she wakes up from the CN (or at a similar time when she doesn't CN) and then give her a top up feed after her bath. If you don't think she'll be hungry enough, you could just feed her closer to BT.
How much A time does your DD have after a short CN? Mine seems to be able to do almost the same amount as she does earlier in the day so I'm wondering how much A time she can handle without the CN.
However the catnap is so short now I think I might just have to go for it one day soon ...
I'm right there with you! At this point, I'm thinking of just really pushing her A times and just resettling her during her naps for a few days if she's a bit OT so we can ditch the CN and be done with this transition.
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thanks ladies. things are okay. we have been trying to teach her to self-soothe. we didn't do pu/pd because it just riles her up too much so we give her a lovey. do some walking around quietly to wd and then put her in and put are hand on her. she does cry, but she calms down pretty quickly. we just tell her that it's sleep time and she is going down on her own more and more. i am still not having any success with the naps though! and she has never slept through the night (her longest stretch ever has been 8 hours, her longest recently is 5 maybe 6hours and then she is up every 2.5 or 3.5 to eat and seems genuinely hungry)
she went on a nursing strike earlier this week so i'm guessing she is still hungry from that. i just can't seem to get her to eat enough during the day no matter how hard i try. her reflux is pretty bad still, so she ends up spitting a lot of her milk up.
i have been able to get her to take a few 2 hour naps but only if i am there at the exact moment when the sleep cycle transition happens and hold down the jolts and sometimes give her a pacifier (it has never been a prop). she just can't seem to make the transition on her own. she literally jolts once and is wide awake! i can tell she is overtired so it is challenging to know how long to keep her up, when to put her down, etc. still trying things out.
if she only sleeps 40 minutes do i still give her a 2hour A time? this morning i put her down after 1.15 hour because i could tell she was tired and cranky, but again, only slept 40 minutes. sigh. i'm just worried for her and feel like it's never going to end, plus i'm just exhausted all the time.
thanks...
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mdittmer - reading your post sounds very much like where we were back in early December. We didn't do PU/PD either because it made DD really frustrated so we went for a very similar approach to you with a bit of shush pat. The naps took longer for us to come together as well and are still not perfect (but that's partly because DDs A time keeps on stretching!). Some thoughts from me having been in a very similar position:
- it is absolutely normal for LO to need to feed still, DD has only dropped her night feed in the last couple of weeks and she is 6mo next week. For us the number and length of feeds gradually reduced and eventually she stopped waking for them at all (On reflection this also tied in with when we started on solids). Hang in there it does get better!
- transitioning naps is tricky, I still have to go in on some naps (usually when I have kept her up too long or she needs a push in A time - so hard as the A time is constantly stretching!) but if you are consistent and get the A times about right she will transition some naps on her own. I think after a few weeks you will become more relaxed about it as well. I got myself really stressed but once I realised that if one nap was messed up it wasn't the end of the world, we could make it up later in the day I felt more confident. Eventually the number of naps that went awry really reduced as DD got used to the routine (I think spirited ones really like routine)
- if you get a short nap then reduce the following A time. Personally I reduce from 2.5hr A time to nearer 2hr or 2hr10. Otherwise you get a OT spirited one which results in another short nap!
- one thing I found useful with naps was to decide before I went in how long I was going to resettle for before abandoning the nap. DD got really worked up sometimes when I tried to resettle and just got more and more worked up as time went on. I used to try for about 15-20 minutes and if it hadn't happened in that time I would abandon the nap and take her to another room to calm down.
Hope that helps, keep on doing what you're doing because it really does come together in time. :-)
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thank you newmum79! you have helped me feel so much better! especially after last night when i put her to bed early (because i could tell she was tired) and she woke up at 11 to eat (she was starving) but then was wide awake for an hour! luckily my dh took her and then she did sleep until after 4am and then didn't wake until a little after 7. of course she has been talking to herself for the last 25 minutes since i put her down to sleep. goodness, these spirited one! i'll keep trying to work with her A time and hopefully i can figure it all out! thanks for your suggestions, i greatly appreciate it!
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Great thread! Ive been going back and forth the last couple of weeks with mine! He is tweaking his routine and I'm just not sure what to stick to. I'm getting help in the EASY forum yay. Its just so confusing. Before this he was doing the 10 month routine perfect and predictable, life was good lol.
xo
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I've split Blondie's posts to a new topic. If anyone can help please pop in here EW spirited LO
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Before this he was doing the 10 month routine perfect and predictable, life was good lol.
I hear ya! You are probably nearing the 2 - 1 transition which is where we are. It sucks. LOL!
Curious to see other's wind down routines if anyone wants to share. I find sometimes our wind down is non-existent because DS can't sit still for any length of time. I can't hold him to read a story or anything like that, he just gets too frustrated. I think our lack of wind-down is contributing to his independent sleep issues.
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What we do with my LO because he's exactly the same way hates being held to read to or a, so anything. I bring him into my room and I lay him on my bed with some toys, plush, or wooden no lights or sounds. I climb on with him and lay down. He climbs on me, rolls around and gets his yayas out but also realizes this is the play before nap time. Then about 15min before nap time we go in I change his diaper we sit in the rocker and I sing to him. Even if he's still whiny etc he's gotten most of his yaya's out and then I turn lights out, put him in his sleep sack and say sleepytime and walk out. He will roll around for about 10 min and then go to sleep. Sometimes the SA kicks in and he'll sit up and whine. I'll walk in lay him back down, repeat his sleepy phrase and then walk out again. Seems to work for him.
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What we do for wind down is I give him his stuffed cow and we walk around the house for a few minutes, then into his room, still walking around. He can't handle it if I sit down. Also often if I push his head gently toward my chest he will be less alert and looking around and his body actually relaxes. It is like I am telling him that it is ok to relax now. Then pop him right into bed. Depending on how active he was this can be 5-15 min. If I tried to sit with him and hold him, or read a book, or sing a song, he just gets stimulated by it and wants to play, but the movement of me walking while holding him seems to work to slow his body and brain down!! He just needs to be constantly moving, lol.
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I'm baaaack!
After we sorted out the horrendous night wakings and got our days back on track it was smooth sailing with predictable days, good naps and good nights ;D But, as we all know, all good things must come to an end. :'( I think I missed the boat on increasing DDs A times and we got rolling down the short nap hill very quickly! I feel like I'm back in the 3-2 transition because all of the short naps mean we often need an evening CN. We're also starting to get more NWs and EWs so I really want to sort this out. I'm getting some great help from Kara on the naps board but I've got a few questions for you wonderful ladies.
I know getting the A times and nap lengths right will get us back on track but it feels like it's taking forever to transition to a new routine because I keep getting the A times wrong and we get in a UT/OT loop. Should I just push the A time and suck it up and deal with the OT for a few days to get this over with or would that make it worse in the long run?
Has anyone on this board tried set naps? I know I'd love that, but I'm not sure how a spirited LO would handle them.
Also, if anyone has time to, I would appreciate it if you could post what your LOs day looked like at 7 months.
Thanks
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Hi, I'm new here, and I don't have time to read through this entire thread but can I just say how excited I am for this thread?! I have a spirited baby and am a FTM and a SAHM and practically a single parent (my husband works full time and goes to school so he can't be as involved).
Our dear daughter is almost 5 months and its been 2 months since we put her on EASY but her sleep is STILL inconsistent. I am not sure if this is the right place to get into our sleep/eating problems, but since she's Spirited, I thought it might be a good place to start.
So we never made the switch to 4-hour EASY because I couldn't get a 2 hour nap out of her. I relaxed a bit on the schedule and that seemed to help her figure out what she wanted to do a little more and I'm starting to get 2 hour naps once in a while from her. I'm contemplating trying to get that more consistent by switching to a 4 hour EASY. But our problem is this:
I cannot get her to take a full feeding first thing in the morning. Sometimes she'll latch for a min or two or five but she eventually gets so distracted that she wants to play. Then she gets hungry again at 8am (an hour later). So I feed her and let her play (so the nurse-to-sleep association isn't there) but now the entire feeding schedule is off! I have tried everything to help her take a full feeding first thing in the morning - dark room, nursing cover, quiet environment, something to look at while she nurses, varying positions...but none of it works. I think maybe she's just not as hungry but her last feeding from the night is around 4am, so she should be hungry enough for a full feeding, right?!
If I can't get her feeding sorted out, I'm afraid I can't get her on a consistent schedule. Which I'm okay with except for the fact that she's still super inconsistent in her naps and night-time sleep. I know she can self-soothe at night but she's never done it with her naps. I always have to go in and pat/sh her back to sleep. And it always works to do that, and sometimes she will sleep thru the 45 minute cycle, but lately its been inconsistent and really frustrating.
HELP! I need some fresh eyes/perspective on this.
So to be clear:
1.) Won't take full feeding at 7am wake up which throws off the rest of the eating times for hte day because she gets hungry at 8am and if I skip that feeding, she wakes early from her nap because she's so hungry.
2.) She can't self-soothe back to sleep from the 45 min nap wake up and she wakes up at the 45 min mark more often than not.
3.) I think Tracy would say put her on a 4-hour EASY to solve the nap problem but I can't do that until I figure out problem #1.
PLEASE HELP! =) Thanks!
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Hi, have you tried waiting to feed her until a it later rather than straight when she wakes at 7? So you would be doing AEASY instead of EASY but that is OK.
How long is she awake before you try to put her to sleep? Just wondering if she needs more A time. we would expect a 5mo to be on 2-2hr15. What about wake to sleep if she is already on an appropriate A time?
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My spirited LO is going through an OT phase at the minute. We're in the middle of tweaking his easy.
The thing I need advice with is when he wakes after 45 mins at naptime I'm finding it hard to get him back off to sleep again. He's so obviously tired but even by being in the room I find that I'm stimulating enough to stop him from going back off again. I used to do shhh/pat but that doesn't work anymore. PU/PD is a def no no as he just laughs when I pick him up and screams when I put him down. He has a dummy (which isnt a prop) and all I can do is go replug and settle then leave his room again. If I stay he gets all excited and his arms and legs start going all over the place. Any ideas as I've run out of things to do and def dont want to go down the crying route.
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When we had this problem, I'd APOP him anyway I could to get some more sleep. Luckily my LO loved sleeping on/with me and I used it during OT phases. It was even good for me too, because I'd catch a few zzz's with him... ;)
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But wouldnt that then become a habit?
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What about wake to sleep if the naps are always 45 mins?
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Hi,
Is there somewhere a pure description of a Spirited Baby? Now I've found this thread and I have a suspition that it might be what I'm dealing with.... the definition could be very helpful.
thanks.
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Here are descriptions The Five Types - Everyday Moments
And here is the quiz The BW "Know Your Baby Quiz"
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But wouldnt that then become a habit?
It hasn't become a habit here - he's an independent sleeper, so once we were through the OTness, he went back to self settling quite quickly. If you worry about it, you could try W2S as Ali suggested...
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Aaaaarrrrggghhh :-[
Tried APOP this afternoon but he thought it was a game. I tried not to look at him but he was still laughing. If he wasnt tired it wouldnt be a problem. If i bring him back downstairs he's grumpy and whingey within 10 mins. Will try w2s tomorrow. It may work betyer as when i go in his room its as if he hasnt seen me for a week. He gets really excited.
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Is the room completely blacked out?
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His room usnt fully blacked but its dim and its never been an issue. He goes to bed at 7 ok and thats when his room is at its lightest. Dont think its that.
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I was just thinking if it was completely dark he wouldn't really be able to see you and get excited.
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Yep, we completely blacked out the room for our 4-month-old spirited and did Hold Through the Jolts when she hit the 45-minute-napping phase and within a few weeks she was able to get over the jolts herself. HTTJ is quite involved, you can only really do it if they're the only baby at home -- I would literally sneak in at the 25-minute mark, crawl over to her cot, and hold her down with my arms through the bars (and a blanket over them in case it wasn't dark enough to completely hide me if she woke) until she was over the 30-minute jolt, the 45-minute jolt, and then the 10-minute jolt of the next sleep cycle. But then I'd sneak out again and have at least another half an hour of Y in peace :) Wake to sleep sounds easier if your baby responds to it.
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We ll dont want to jinx it but yesterday managed to get A time to where it should be (i think) and we've also put up a blackout blind. Hey presto naps were good and he slept right through with no early morning feed. I even managed to change a dirty nappy at 9pm without waking him up lol. I really hope we've cracked it(until next leap of course). Thanks for all the advice. I might be back later when it all goes to pot lol.
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Fab :)
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Hi. I have come to you all on this thread because after much reading, I believe this is the right place. My LO who is 7 months is very much a spirited baby as evident from even his first month of life. Although he has reflux, he is not medicated because we were advised that it was not necessary. After 7 months, he is still spitting up mildly (I gave up dairy and soy and he is exclusively bf) but he does not appear to be in pain as he is laughing sometimes when he does so. For the first month, LO cried all the time and was only comforted by the sound of a real blow dryer (vs applications on my phone). The crying diminished and by 6 months, he was crying much less and really only expressed true displeasure when bored or frustrated- especially in the car.
So. This is the issue. Due to heavy crying, he was held to sleep in first months often. I always tried to put him down partially awake and he would flash his eyes open when PD but still fall back to sleep. By 4 months, I was implementing shh pat for short naps somewhat successfully but it was not consistent; it would sometimes work and sometimes not. Tried holding through the jolts. Worked but he did not learn to sleep through on his own. Tried PUPD but only made him angry. He is still taking short naps for the most part and most recently is challenging the initial PD in his crib. What a nightmare. So finally after a sometimes "battle" to put him to sleep, he is awake as soon as you put him down. He is causing me to wait and hold him well into his sleep cycle now in order to put him down. I tried a few times before, patting, shhing, comforting while in the crib but rarely does it put him to sleep. Currently, I believe we are in an OT cycle as a result of all this. LO does NOT like to go to sleep for naps, but I can usually get at least two 45 minute naps a day with a possible catnap later if necessary. Only a month ago, I started to get an hour and half pretty consistently in the AM with a brief shhhing from me through the monitor after 40 minutes before he fully stirred. It doesn't work anymore.
I would love any advice or help with short naps and quick wakeups. My DS needs to learn to self soothe and return to sleep on his own (sometimes he can sleep 5-6 hours as he did often when younger). He has continual wakeups all night long varying from 5 to 15 wakeups in a night. I would like to begin gradual withdrawal but my experience with LO says that he will just lie there awake with a mix of crying, playing, wiggling and more crying. One night we tried for 2.5 hours, I massaged his legs and sang and stood there comforting at 1 AM determined to help him learn. He woke 45 min later (probably OT).
The thing is I am certain he will just skip the nap as I have seen it happen. So how do I begin? How can I help this little inquisitive man? He is desperate to stand and walk and has no time for anything but climbing and moving and certainly no time for naps. He legs never rest.
Thank you in advance for your experienced input!
Ali H
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Firstly big big hugs to you. I know how hard it is with an lo that doesnt sleep.
My lo had reflux due to cows milk allergy. May i ask who told you meds were not necessary? If your lo has reflux the only thing that will help is meds. From 5 months (it took that long for diagnosis) my lo was on omeprazole once a day. Was a faff trying to get it in him but so worth it. He sleot. This is only my opinion and i'm not pushing you to do it. Eventually he went onto neocate for his milk allergy and a minth later we stopped the reflux meds and havent looked back. I have a happy spirited baby who has just started sleeping through the night. He still fights naps but only for about 5 mi
ns as i make sure he's really tired when he goes d :)own. Hope this helps if only just a little.
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Thanks. It does help a little.
The spitting up was severe by month 2 and my pediatricians said that he had basic reflux and that it just meant a lot of laundry. I was pretty horrified. He was sleeping much better during the first 3 months of life- giving 6 hours many nights a week so that meant to the doctors he was uncomfortable.
The spit up just kept coming and was sometimes much more intense than other times so I went off dairy and waited for a month and half for it to get better. Holidays hit and we didn't think there was much improvement so I went back on dairy but the spit up I guess was worse. So off dairy I went and at this point, I was pushing to see a GI specialist even though my pediatricians kept saying simple reflux. I made an appt with a GI specialist and doctor did not feel meds were necessary. Dr recommended going off soy as well and there seemed to be an improvement with spitting up has continued and he sleeps worse than ever. I am so tried of arguing with the doctors that something more must be wrong and told simply that he is not uncomfortable so no meds are necessary.
Alas. My LO doesn't sleep well and I want to help him. The OT cycles are awful and now he has a cold. Teething perhaps.
I just don't know what to do anymore.
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Ali-
Do you believe the reflux is under control? I cut dairy and soy also, and it seemed to do the trick and I never had to medicate. I'm assuming you are not feeding your lo any dairy or soy in the solids you may have introduced.
Do you think the sleep issues are due to your lo being in pain or due to routine?
The first step is to try to get the pain under control. Until the reflux is no longer the issue for sleep, I would apop whenever necessary to get a good night's rest.
If you believe that his reflux is not bothering him for sleeping, and it is a routine issue, I would apop until he gets out of his OT cycle. This would give you an idea of his EASY schedule. Then decide if you are going to try shush pat or gradual withdrawal. Do your lo naps and BT early, knowing it may take longer for him to fall asleep. That way you avoid OT. As far as middle of the night wake ups, I would do whatever helps him to get back to sleep as quickly as possible. Once you've got him going down for naps and bt independently, I would then use whatever technique worked for middle of the night wakes.
My son liked shush pat. My daughter responded better to just the shush. Both hated put down. I would lay on the floor next to their crib and pat the mattress until they laid down, then rub their backs through the slat in the crib. Find whatever works that won't break your back!
You could try massage to see if that helps him to relax his legs which always seem like they want to move!
Big hugs on sleeplessness. I know exactly how exhausted you are. Do whatever you can to get some rest. Can someone else help you with night wake ups while you focus on sleep training during the day? You are going to need lots of rest so you can be patient. Earplugs might help, as well as doing relaxation techniques to keep yourself calm. I find singing to helps me relax when I'm trying to settle Emily. Her crying is a very angry cry- and it makes me feel angry. She has her own song I made up and sing to her when I'm frustrated lol.
Good luck, and keep us posted!
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So much of what you said has made me feel so much better. Let me just clear my eyes.
I have posted in the past and everyone just goes to reflux and meds which has made me feel like I have done something wrong. Making me think that maybe I should have pushed harder to get meds. But what you are saying makes me feel so relieved. My LO does not seem to be in pain when he spits up or is lying down. In fact, right from the beginning when he was crying and crying in that first month, I would lie him down on a blanket and then silence. He just wanted to be solo to kick his legs and whatnot. I understand lying down with reflux does not mix. So, that lead me to believe that the doctors and specialists must be right and he must just have a milk/soy allergy and is experiencing reflux but is not in pain.
I make most of the food myself so no dairy and soy for LO but he has been very keen to eat everything and chews his way through turkey, roast beef, burgers, etc.... I stand amazed but he loves it. I make every effort to be sure there is no soy or dairy in the new foods we are introducing but you know how hard it is as almost everything has soy.
All that being said. I do think his sleeplessness is routine and he is even developing more neediness the older he gets. I dread naptime. My body aches from the endless dance we have to do to get there and now he wakes up when I put him in the crib. I just don't know. Perhaps this is because 3 weeks ago we were on vacation and he slept in stroller and front carrier a lot and now he craves more. All I know is I have to help him get to sleep on his own.
Today..... He woke at 745. Cereal and Fruit at 9. And he did not want to nap and I did not want to battle so he did not sleep until 11. Usually he would take a nap at 10ish. Surprisingly, he quietly tucked his head into me and became quiet sucking on his "blanket". When I pd in crib, he stirred, cried lightly, rubbed his eyes. I shushed and massaged legs (which he loves) and he fell asleep. He is still sleeping. Oh. I forgot to mention I decided to use real blowdryer instead of sound machine today. He has stirred a few times but trying to sleep.
Is it possible he needs a longer A time and that his short naps are because he is not tired enough? Here I thought the battles to nap and short sleeps were due to OT. I just don't know. Wow... he is still sleeping. Blowdryer still on. Much stirring but asleep for 1 hr and 20 minutes. Praise be.
I just reread your post. I cannot thank you enough. especially your final words of comfort. I too have a song for Gray. It is such a relief to know you are not alone and it is amazing how much better I feel. I even have a little hope now. I must work on a renewed level of patience. This is not easy.
Thank you.
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Still sleeping!!!
I want to introduce a lovey. Recommendations on how to do that? Do I just have it at sleep times?
Thanks!
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Ali-
I have found my lo's fight sleep when they are not tired. My DS was low sleep needs and we were in a terrible short nap mess until around 6 months when I threw out any idea of normal and just let him do his thing. I figured out then that he needed much longer awake times than anything I read in the normal range. He liked the blow dryer too. I used the one on happiest baby on the block cd. I used it for night wakes too.
Regarding the lovey- did you mention he already had a blankie? As for introducing a new lovey, I believe it is suggested you sleep with it awhile so it gets your smell, then make it part of your wind down routine.
I hope the longer A time works for you. I know it did for my lo.
I promise you, he will sleep someday. I remember feeling that I would never sleep again, and my nerves were shot from all the crying. Two kids later, I've found peace in that they learn to nap and Sttn eventually. You will still experience hiccups- teething, illness, nap transition etc. but it gets better from here- I promise.
Give yourself big hugs for being such a super mom! And get as much rest as you can! Nap when he does, if you can. You need your rest to restore your patience!
The ladies on this whole forum are terrific. They have given me hope when I felt there was none!
Good luck and keep posting!
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Let him do his thing. I couldnt agree more. I think that is why when we were on vacation it was so easy. He just had to go with the flow and was awake for longer periods of time. Of course, changing things up and watching and knowing your son is one thing. This is hard to explain to the sitter who watches him 3 days a week. Hmmm. I will have to figure that out.
Thanks for all the advice and support. I will check out that cd as well.
I think once he shakes the cold, I will try to do some gradual withdrawal. He did well today but that, we know, could be a fluke.
Question about the milk / soy allergy. When did your LO outgrow it? What about milk later in his diet?
Thanks for the hugs too. I needed them today.
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I am so sorry if you think i was pushing at reflux meds. I misunderstood and thought that you thought it was reflux. Big apologies.
Regarding the lovey. My lo had a rabbit that was a blanket too but he kept putting it on his face then panicking. In the end i cut a muslin square into smaller squares (didnt want him wrapping it round his neck) and he sleeps with one at a time. He strokes it on his cheek.
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No. Not at all. Not pushing. I was just thinking that meds were the only solution. When I posted in the past, everyone always kinda of said - can't do anything until meds. I was discouraged because I thought then that I had been misreading my LO and I should have him on meds. So it possible to have reflux but not need meds to sleep comfortably. Then there is hope for my LO.
Could point about the lovey. He does sometimes get panicky rough with a item. He has a few small blankets- a muslin one too- that I have just been switching out with naps to see what he likes.
I truly appreciate all the help I have gotten. Thank you sooo much!
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Update.... I am saying this quietly as not to jinks it, but LO has taken a solid morning nap for the last 5 days. Yesterday, he took his longest morning nap (1hr 45 min) and then took a long afternoon nap (1hr 15 min- but I had to wake him to go his sister's softball game). And to top it off, he slept from 9:30 pm til 1:30 til 5:30 and finally woke at 7:30. This is a good night for us. He usually woke at least 4 times after 7:30 BT and then again at 11:30 and so on through the night. Yeah!! This is definitely a step in the right direction.
Today... 2.5 hours in the morning!!!! Wow.
Mind you this is all with the blow dryer on while he is sleeping but I suppose he likes that more than any sound machine I have purchased. I wonder if it is safe though.
One question.... his A time seems to be around 4 hours. Is this okay for him? I worry about OT. I don't want to experience that again. What should I do to avoid that?
Thanks!
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Great news on the longer naps! I would say if he is getting good rest, and seems happy, you are unlikely to run into OT. I would keep the A time at 4 hrs for a few more days and see what happens. I don't think it can get much worse than the sleep he was already doing ifykwim?!
I would be concerned about the hairdryer on that long. Do you have an iPhone? Or any way to record it and play it? I would worry about the hairdryer overheating.
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Great news! Those first long naps after weeks of short naps sure give you hope, don't they?
Mind you this is all with the blow dryer on while he is sleeping but I suppose he likes that more than any sound machine I have purchased. I wonder if it is safe though.
My DD loves white noise when she sleeps. As a newborn we used the hairdryer but now we use an app called White Noise Baby on our iPod. It's been a lifesaver. I would worry about the hairdryer overheating. I think someone mentioned the Happiest Baby on the Block CD - that might work well too.
If 4 hours A time is working, I would stick with that.
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I have that white noise app and it works well- but it dolidn't work as well as the happiest baby cd for DS.
I mentioned the hairdryer because my aunt had one short out. It wasn't turned on, just plugged in. But it started a fire, and melted her bathroom countertop. I didn't want to freak you out, but I don't even leave my hairdryer plugged in for just that reason.
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The blowdryer overheating concerned me as well which is why I always turned it off once he was in the crib. I decided to leave it on last week for the first time to see what would happen. I knew I would be right in the other room and had the video monitor on. He slept for an hour and 45 min for the first time in months.... months. No intervention. No assistance from me at all. I nearly wept. Now I am afraid to shut the darn thing off.
I have tried apps and purchased sound machines but apparently it is not the same. I spoke to my DH about recording the dryer sound but he still thinks it wont come in the same.
Shall I just buy the CD - expend yet another dollar - in the name of sleep and see if it works. I feel like I have purchased so many sleep aids for noise and none seem to do the trick. Definitely freaked out by the fire story though so Little Man is going to have to like something else. Going on amazon now to purchase the cd.
Thanks.... for your thoughts!!!!!
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My spirited DD is 11 weeks old and has always had trouble sleeping during naps. She's a very happy pleasant easy going baby when awake. Before I read TBW I used to rock/pat/hum until she was in deep sleep which took at least 30mins. Since I've been using EASY and putting her down drowsy she falls asleep really well initially... but then she wakes up and does not go back to sleep no matter how hard I try. I'm getting so frustrated. For instance: today we got up and she ate (EBF) at 7:30, tried to put down for a nap at first yawn at 8:15. ---She's never had more than 45mins of A time without giving me a tired cue. However looking back it seems like when I used to keep her up and let her get super tired, she slept longer but I also used props (swing, rocking, letting her sleep in my arms)--- She fell asleep at 9:00, and slept for 30mins. She never cries, just fusses. So when she woke at 9:30 I left her alone for a bit. She stopped fussing after 5mins but was wide awake when I checked on her after 10min. I tried and tried to get her back to sleep but nope. So finally at 10:00, I picked her up and fed her. She started fussing a bit at 10:45 so we did a wind down and she was asleep by 11:00. Then she woke 15mins later and only just now at 11:45 went back to sleep after half and hour of patting, pu/pd (seems to work better than sh/pat), and rocking (while crying out of frustration). She gets worse with SHH and likes a gentle pat. I can't go back to the cycle of rocking her to sleep for half an hour, laying her down for her to wake up as soon as she touches the mattress, and then have to rock her to sleep for another half an hour. I just can't. She gets so OT when she doesn't sleep well in the day. Yesterday was a really good day because she fell asleep for her first nap in her swing and slept for almost 2 hours! Then her next 2 naps in her cot were another hour each. Then she wouldn't sleep for her evening nap and became so OT she didn't get to sleep until 8:30pm. That's 4 1/2 hours without sleep. Then she was up every 3 hours all night. I know she can STTN because she did it just 4 nights ago. I'm getting so frustrated with how hard it is for this child to sleep. HELP!!
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Forgot to mention that she fights and arches in my arms when I'm holding her before her nap. Is she UT or just doesn't want to go to sleep? She's always craning her neck to look around too. Maybe my A times are too short despite sleepy cues?
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Maybe try moving her A time out slowly 15 min for a few days, then 15 more etc to see if it helps. If she sometimes babies get into an ut/OT cycle. For instance, a baby might be very tired in the morning if they didn't get enough night sleep, leading to wanting an earlier first nap, but they aren't tired enough to make it very long, leading to short naps. This was my DS. My dd hit a weird spot at around 3 months where she wouldn't stay asleep for her naps. I kept adjusting A times, and never got it just right. I would put her down to sleep independently, then if/when she'd wake I'd apop her back to sleep so she got her solid nap. Otherwise she would be up all night and it was miserable. We eventually worked out if that when she started sleeping longer again.
Hugs!! Keep us posted!
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I think she's just going through the same weird napping problems as all the other ~3month old babies I've been reading about. I went with the flow the last couple of days and followed my DD's lead and we've both been much happier and well rested. Even though her naps are shorter, she's sleeping better at night again. Her A time has been anywhere from 1.5 - 2hrs long.
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So bummed. I have tried a few different scenarios for sound for my LO but he wakes after a half hour. He has been consistently napping everyday between 1.5 and 2.5 hours but with the blowdryer on. I tried other sources for the "sound" but he woke after a half hour and did not go back down. I got him back to sleep but he could not settle. So bummed.
What do I do for my little light sleeper? I don't know what to use. I ordered another CD and will try that next.
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I got him back to sleep but he could not settle. So bummed.
:(
I wonder what it is about the hair dryer that works best. Is it the volume of it?
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Hi all!
I just found this thread and started reading through it and realized I have a spirited baby. All the problems I've been facing are posted through out!
I've read every freaking book out there. My DS is only 4 weeks old - and sleeps great at night! But he FIGHTS naps during the day something awful. My husband is up in the nursery rocking him right now - has been for an hour - just to insure he will sleep. =(
I'm overwhelmed and tired - and jealous of all the moms out there with newborns that konk out anywhere!
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((((hugs)))) Getting a spirited baby to sleep can be so tough, especially in the early days.
jealous of all the moms out there with newborns that konk out anywhere!
I felt this way too but I'll bet your baby will smile and be more interactive and fun before those sleepy LOs!
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I agree lily jayne
Our lo is a spirited baby and he has us and himself in stitches everyday and he's only 8 months old lol
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Thank you for pointing out the silver lining! I'm sure this LO is going to be SO entertaining - as well as a hand full =)
And, he fights naps - but is otherwise a REALLY GOOD baby. He rarely cries. Only when he's way over tired. I've had to come to terms with the fact that he's not going to sleep like other babies - I'm never going to get "schedule" out of him.
This forum is a life saver!!
Do your spirited babies tend to sleep well at night?
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Hehe pualani.
Thats one thing we realised too. we do things in easy but its never the same time everyday. we have wu and bt at the same time each day but thats about it. He just wants to be on the move all the time lol. No time for sleep in his eyes.
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Do your spirited babies tend to sleep well at night?
Mine does now (at 9 months) but it was a journey with lots of bumps in the road. As a newborn she was up 3-4 times a night and then she slowly dropped feeds on her own. She was STTN at 4 months and then started feeding at night again at 5 months. Now she mostly sleeps through unless it's a wonder week.
Your days will get more predictable eventually but it may take a while. I spent so much of DDs first months wanting a predictable schedule and it just added stress to my life and frustrated both of us. I wish I had relaxed and realized that there's nothing wrong with me (or her) for each day being different.
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Hallo ladies I am back. My LO is 1 year and started to test limits. I mean when she wants something she wants it and I can not distract her or it is very hard. However if I am not capable to distract her and she can not do or get what she wants she is mad, starts to scream and cry from anger. What to do: ignore? Sometimes it is short but sometimes it is really bad :P
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Tweetie, I don't really have time now, but will be back later with some ideas. In the meanwhile have you heard of the book, RYSP (Raising Your Spirited Child)? It was a life saver for me in understanding the temperament of the spirited LOs and has excellent ideas on working with them.
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Hi Tecike, thank you very much for reminding me I do have it just forgot to look at it :-[. Actually I have read about sleeping part (we have horrible issues with multiple and long NW - last two months :P, actually sleeping problems since she was 4 months old :P) so I am in survival mode :P. In addition I am still thinking she is a baby not toddler - I have a time to read it ;D
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Hey tweetie!
I don't know if you have seen this board:
Raising the spirited child 0-4 years thread 2
It has a lot of moms on it right now with 2 year olds (and a few of us with younger spirited ones!). And they might be able to offer some BTDT advice for spirited LOs that test the limits ;)
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Thank you very much Canadian_Mom I did not know about that one I will check it :).
I have one more question which is bothering me very much lately - how to prepare her for the day care? She is very spirited :P I have read about transition and all these things but I think it is harder when they are younger - I mean how to explain to 1 year old?
Tecike I was reading whole afternoon :)
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Oh, Tweetie, that's good for you! Hope you found some good advice there!
I have no BTDT with day care, as we have grandparents to watch our LOs, but I think you need to go gradually - is it possible to start her for only one or two hours or days at first and then slowly build time up? My experience is that even if we think they don't understand, we still have to tell them everything. I was surprised with my LO, I thought he didn't understand much of what I was saying.... and there were a couple of times I didn't tell him in advance what we were about to do and the transition was harder and more painful for both of us. Talk to her all the time and she'll surprise you one day! :)
Oh, and I have to check that other thread as well! :P
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Thank you Tecike :) I do but I still think she is too small to get it (in the books are examples for little bigger kids)- I am explaining constantly ;D
I plan to do it gradually but I am freaking out of NW - whatever happens in her life (change) everything reflects on nights. We switched to one nap a month ago and since then we do not sleep during night - multiple wakings till midnight and then long NW from 2-4 hr and it does not go away and I can not function anymore :'(. On sleeping board ladies are saying that are teething too - I believe (she does have some bump behind in the mouth) but knowing her I know that she is also OT and can not get out from that vicious cycle... no way out....
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Oh my, that sounds awful! :(
FX for you that the transition goes smoothly! To be honest, I can't imagine what I'd do if I were you... We had bad nights for such a long time when Vic was little, and I'm so happy he sleeps fine for more than 6 months now. I do hope the ladies on the sleeping boards will help you through this OT!
Hey, I've noticed we're 'neighbours' (though I'm a Hungarian living in Serbia), maybe I could help you out if it gets too rough? ;)
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Thank you Tecike. Yes it is awful actually it was - now I do not know is it getting better or I am just using it :-\ No it is better NW are now 1-2 hr and no screaming.... Yes ladies are great - I really do not know what would I do if I would not have their support and help....
One tooth came out - not molar which I expected :P
Tecike stop for a coffee in Zagreb :)
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Hi, I am new to this forum and have a spirited 4 mo. I have a question about managing A time for a spirited baby his age. It seems like he can't do any one activity for more than a few minutes without fussing. He will not sit still in anyone's lap, he is so squirmy and fussy, but he seems to get so easily frustrated by activity gyms, toys and his jumparoo. He loves it for 3 minutes and then starts fussing. Should I try to transition him to a different activity as soon as he starts fussing? Often, even if I remove the stimulation he continues to fuss. Quieter activities like lying in his crib and looking at his mobile, with or without music don't seem to satisfy him for more than 2-3 minutes either. It is so tiring.
He is so happy and smiley right after waking up but slowly gets fussier and fussier over the course of an hour. By one hour of awake time he is constantly fussy until he goes down for a nap. He naps ok at daycare, usually 3 naps of at least an hour, and one longer nap of 1.5-2 hours. He fights naps at home on weekends, but we try to put him down anyway. Any advice about why he is fussing so much and how we could help him be more content would be appreciated! I feel like I am failing him as a mom sometimes, I am so confused by his cues and what will make him happy.
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I think my baby is turning spirited, from touchy she's all smiles or screaming her brains out and I just can't work her out. All her cries sound the same shell push a bottle away then 10 mins later gobble down a whole bottle, doesn't want a toy then smiles and grabs for it. I need help working her out. She knows her own mind and I feel like she's always saying 'no mum you have got it wrong again!!!' I adore her happy times but when she's upset it's as if you are murdering her and she is inconsolable. ATM we are more aes then eas and settling to sleep involves screaming but she wants to do it herself, try and help and she screams harder. Help!
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lilycm - Sorry that it took so long to respond. First, you are not a failure as a mom. It is hard to figure LOs out especially in the first months. The fussiness sounds to me like he could be tired. Could you post what your day usually looks like?
candersen - My LO was the same with the screaming at nap time and wanting to do it herself. We eventually got to the point where she settled without screaming. How old is your LO? What does a typical day look like?
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We are at almost 2 weeks with no paci for a very spirited baby 5 months old (4 adjusted). She has THE hardest time unwinding(often crying herself to sleep) and going to sleep, and can not put herself back to sleep if she wakes up. I was afraid the paci was a prop, as I would need to put it back in her mouth, but now she needs me to pat/shush her back to sleep. Have I traded the paci for myself as the prop? She is looking looking for something to suck on to settle down, and refuses to use her fingers/hand. We don't sleep more than 3-4 hours at night and I'm exhausted!
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Have you tried a lovey/blankie for her to hold and suck on?
Once she is more used to settling with the shh pat you will easily he able to stop a little sooner each time and reduce the firmness or the patting and the volume of the shush.
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Thanks for the reply! We do have a blankie/lovey and she does hug it but man is it a battle to get her to sleep. We have moved to a 4 hour EASY and introduced a little cereal, hoping that would help her out at night. A quick rundown of what we did last night- Bed at 7:15, she woke up at 9:30, shush/pat until 10- no calming down, I fed her a 4 oz bottle(which is a full feed for her) back to sleep. At 11:00 I still did the dream feed she took an additional 2 oz. She woke up at 2:00- I've noticed this is a habit- thinking I need to wake to sleep tonight. She was acting super hungry, only drank 2 oz but was Wide awake :( Got her back to sleep at 2:45. She woke up at 4:00, pat shushed her until 4:15, woke up at 5:30 gave her another 2 oz back to sleep and then got her up for the day at 7:15. So needless to say this is a typical night- I try not to feed her during the night, but when she is completely inconsolable a bottle often gets her back to sleep. I have done pat/shush for up to 1.5 hours in the middle of the night. I have done BW with my 2 other girls( angel and textbook) and it worked amazing. I feel like I have no idea what to do with this baby and she follows no rules or patterns aggh!! Any thoughts are appreciated :) Also can someone give me guidelines on wake to sleep with no paci? And one other question...what is APOP?
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APOP is accidental parenting on purpose. That is when you deliberately use things like feeding to sleep, rocking, or using the car seat, buggy or sling to get LO to sleep, usually when desperate or you need to get some sleep in her.
It is completely normal to have a night feed at this age so I wouldn't try to force her to go the entire night without one if you think she is hungry. Here is the link on wake to sleep. How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
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Hi Mickstillman,
Just wanted to say that we are in a very similar position to you! We have a 5 1/2 month old very spirited baby, who finds it very hard to sleep! Our night times sound very similar to yours - she's been waking up every two hours - sometimes wanting a feed, sometimes not. She can't cope with the sshh/pat thing as it's too much stimulation, and won't take a paci, but our 'prop' is rocking - in the day in the pushchair, and at night the moses basket on a rocking base. (she's v big for it now but rocking is the only way she'll get to sleep, so I'd rather use that than the pushchair!) Going to try gradual withdrawal method to get her off it. I'm really sorry I don't have any advice to give, but I wanted to say that I feel your pain! It's sooo exhuasting being up every 2 hours, feeling like it shouldn't be this bad now she's 5 months. We've also tried some baby rice, today, so hopefully that will make a difference. Did it work for your LO?
Take care
Sarah
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Really struggling! Am posting my attempts to get EASY for our spirited DS on main EASY board but am finding it v hard to get things right for him & worried I'm failing him cos I can't get his A times or activities right & he's often OS or OT or both & not getting enough sleep. The older he gets & the more he develops & interacts with the world, the worse his sleep gets. Worrying about doing him some permanent damage - is that possible?
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Hi Scottishmummy,
I'm pretty sure you can't do permanent damage for missing some of your baby's tired/OS cues...
It takes time to get to know them and decipher their communication but I'm sure you're doing fine and will do even better with time...
In our case, at 3 months we were barely beginning to see some resemblance of a routine coming for us in the future; they're still so young at 3mo and need to feel you close a lot! Try not to worry so much, spend time observing him, trying to "read" what he's trying to "tell" you...
Listen to the advice you get but most of all listen to your intuition! You'll find so much knowledge already there in your mommy heart ;)
If you think it'll help, you can keep a journal where you log your LO's sleep time every day and make notes on the kind of day/activities he had, hopefully you'll find some sort of pattern that points towards the thing that might be messing with his sleep.
HTH!
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Hi everyone, newbie here and first post. Ive been trying to read older posts and find a situation similar so i dont repeat the same questions but nearly 2 months later im just going to write a post anyway. I wasn't sure where to post but seeing as my son is spirited I thought I would start here. Looks like his thread hasn't been active for a while but I can vent even if no one is listening.
My son is 24 weeks, 5.5 months. Since he was born we rocked him as nothing else would settle his screaming. We then found out he had reflux and has been on medication since 5 weeks. His reflux is under control with no signs of discomfort when spitting up and his cot mattress is elevated though he sleeps fine lying flat on his back when in bed with me. Since 18 weeks it seems things have greatly gone down hill.
We are on a 4 hour EASY. No night feed and he has purée with his losec morning and night (any benefit to rice cereal? I read its full of sugar and empty calories). He is extremely heavy, maybe 11kg now. I'm concerned but his doc, paed and health nurse don't think it's an issue. Should I be concerned? It's hard to rock him to sleep as he is so heavy. Tummy time and sitting is also going slow as his big gut is in the way and with his reflux he doesn't like it.
He has never slept thru the night. He use to sleep well, I would rock him to sleep, put him in his cot, wake at 4:30am to feed then wake 5:30, 6:30, 7:00 (so I would hold him to sleep usually after 5:30 wake up). This probably isn't really what you call "sleeps well" but compared to now it was). He has never self settled. Nothing has worked, if he wakes at night I rock him until he is completely asleep. Ssh pat and pupd doesn't work, it just makes him scream, and boy does he scream. I really want to address this issue somehow but I am at a loss. I even try to rock him less and he would just open his eyes and look around as soon as I stop. Even holding him while sitting and patting his bum isn't an option as he screams. The issue now is he wakes 10-15 mins after I put him down to bed at night or sometimes 30m (overtired?), 45m (undertired?) and sometimes after 1hr or so (in other words at random times). I now take him to my bed after about 2 wake ups as I can now only put him in his cot once he is in deep sleep but in bed I can lie there and pat his bum til he reaches deep sleep or when he stirs. I have no idea what to do and he seems overtired all the time.
I always have to hold him for naps. He can't transition to the next sleep cycle during the day. But now even when I hold him he stirs or wakes at random times. He use to sleep 1.5hrs twice then one catnap (but always was fussy and grumpy). Now he sleeps about 30m in the morning, 1.5-3hrs at noon (I let him sleep as he is so tired), then 30m in the evening. How much sleep should he be getting? His awake time is about 2hr15m-2hr30m. Should he have the same awake time in the AM (i tried shorter but no change) and before bed (he cries at bedtime and goes over his normal awake time)? Is it ok for him to catnap after 4pm? He gets cranky so fast. At 1.5hrs of awake time he is cranky. Nothing keeps him happy, I constantly have to move around or do something to keep him from crying and each new attempt only lasts for a few minutes at most.
We have a very short wind down and he doesn't like the paci, well he does but it doesn't help him sleep, only settles him if he is screaming in the car, else he just chews or plays with it. I know he is probably teething, his tooth came up but disappeared at 15 weeks. But I'm sure there must be something I can do. He started grunting recently too (teething?) and I'm sure I should be moving to 2 naps now but I'm just lost, tired, stressed, anxious, angry, falling apart, and scared, scared I'm not cut out for this and that it won't get better coz that's all I've been hearing (from people with angel babies) but it hasn't happened yet.
Sorry for my rant for anyone that stumbles across this.
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Hello everyone! I have a spirited LO as well. I find it hard at times to deal with her. When we finally got her on what was more like AESY she seemed happier and better rested ( used to take 30 min naps before) but not 2-3 wells into the routine ( she is just over 4 months) she act so differently. It's harder to put her to sleep ( she used to pass out 2-3 mins after I placed her in the crib) and she just started making very weirded noises almost squirching noises and gets all jittery and looks OT but we didnt change anything on the routine. And won't go down for S earlier either.
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Lots of hugs ladies, spirited babies are a big challenge, I have two of them ;) But trust me when I say, being the parent of a spirited is the most rewarding experience ;D I dont have time to post much now, but I will be back, I promise!
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Hellomama!
I hear you! We are not that bad as you LO but I hope you can find the strength to do your best!!
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Hellomama - Yes, both my spiriteds screamed quite a bit while I was sleep training, I learned my lesson and bought earplugs for when I sleep trained dd2! I found that the key to sleep training a spirited baby is getting the A time right. Dd2 is 5months old, and is in the process of dropping the cn, so some days we get two good naps and other days we get 1 good nap and 2 bad naps :( I suspect you are probably in the same phase with your LO.
Spirited babies tend to need higher than the average A times, so right now dd2 is doing 2-2.5hrs between naps, and up to 3hrs before bed if she only has 2 naps. There are no rules for how LOs like their A times to differ throughout the day. Dd1 liked increasing A over the day, and I thjnk dd2 is the same, but some babies like higher A in the am and shorter right before bed.
Dd2 also likes short wind down :) And she puts up a royal fuss as soon as I go into her room around nap time, lol. I think a lot odf spirited babies like a shorter wind down.
Have you read anything on gradual withdrawl? I never used it myself to sleep train, but im sure you coukd get some help from other people who hae had success with it. I used pu/pd with dd1, but if you think your LO is getting too upset and want to use a more gentle method then I think gw is probably the way to go.
Yikes! Gotta go ladies, dd2 just woke up after a 45min nap :( oh well, tomorrow is another day to try for a good pm nap ;)
Hugs all around :-*
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Thx AllaMJ I try everyday to keep positive and stay strong but its so hard.
Tinkerbell99 you have TWO spirited ones???? How do you do it? I can't handle it, he screams at everything! If I don't feed him fast enough, if I put him down to go to the bathroom, if he can't see me! When I'm out I'm so nervous coz he screams so loud everyone looks at me. I know I have to let go and just ignore other people's reactions but it doesn't help I haven't had sleep either. How do you make the difference between giving into his screams and letting him scream when he is misbehaving or just wanting his way? I don't want to let him "get away with" demanding things but once he starts he becomes hysterical. I know his pain cry but his other cries (hunger/tired/bored) seem the same. His cues are hard to read and I have to go by the clock for sleep and feeds. Only once I start rocking him does he yawn and he shows hunger signs all the time and I know he isn't hungry!
How did you sleep train with the pupd method? My LOs sleep window is so small that whatever method I try will result in screams and an OT baby, so maybe if you explained the way you did it I could apply it to the GW method. I have already tried but it hasn't worked coz his eyes pop open when I stop rocking and I have to start again and then he becomes harder to settle. When my LO is asleep and he stirs and starts eating his hands it's all over! It doesn't settle him it wakes him up! Does anyone else's LO do that?
I've got my LO on a 3hr A time starting today and yes I'm also working on the 2-3 naps and getting a really OT baby. Do you let your LO sleep past 4pm, does this affect their night sleep. My LO is waking at 5am to play now. I hope once his naps are better he stops waking so much at night. When you say sleep training comes down with getting the A time right is that because of the sleep window?
Thanks!!!!
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My LO gets very distracted by her hands and as soon as she startssucking them she is up crying. That's why we still swaddle. Going to try this product I ordered caked Zipadee-Zip wich supposed to help her transition from being swaddled to sleep unswaddled.
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Hellomama - Lol, having 2 spiriteds is tough, but when you learn how to deal with one any others after that are easier ;) Quite often you just have to give up control, like with eating dd1 learned at a VERY young age learned how to feed herself with a spoon. It all started when she would get angry with me for not feeding her quickly enough, so I started putting a spoon loaded with purees on her tray, before I knknewit she had learned how to use a spoon :) There is a support thread for parents of spirited LOs if you are interested in chatting or if you have questions with making some of the day to day things easier Raising the spirited child 0-4 years thread 2
To sleep train dd2 I would do her wind down, say her sleepy phrase, and put her into her crib. If she got upset I would pick her up and do shh/pat with her upright on my shoulder, OR if she wasnt too upset I could get away with just touching her face and sayjng "shhh". If I had to pick her up I would give her a chance to calm down then put her back into her crib. I would also put her back in if she was trying to put her self to sleep (she tends to grab her hair to soothe herself so that was a cue to me that she was trying to do it on her own). Actually standing there just patting her really helped me identify her mantra cry so that I knew not to interrupt it, and also identify her sleepy cues like grabbing her hair or pushing herself backwards. Here is my old thread that I started when I needed to sleep train dd2 Just over 3 months old. Can I use pu/pd? Have a read through, Im sure you could post on the pu/pd board as well and you could get some help developing you own sleep training plan...I dont think shhh/pat is the best option at this age, but another way to calm your LO (like touching my dds face) may work so that you avoid too much pu/pd ???
I think at this age 3hrs A all day may be too much. I think the only reason my dd can handle it some days is because its rightbefore her long night sleep!
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Hello Ladies~ It has been quite awhile since I posted which probably means things were going very well. Last time I touched base I was looking into a cd that would mock the sound of an actual blow dryer sound to help my LO sleep without the high risk of the actual blow dryer he loved. Found one and have used it successfully since he was 7 months. Clockwork naps of 1 and half each morning and afternoon. I never thought I'd get there. Of course, I do worry about his hearing. It is so darn loud in there. If I lower it or shut is off repeat, he wakes.
Of course, now that he is 11 months, we are experiencing change. His A time was about 3-3.5 hours and nap for 1.5, but he seems to be transitioning to 1 nap but can't quite get there. I will have to visit that board. We are also dealing with massive teething - molars. With the change in his schedule, NW have become more frequent and it seems everyday and night is different. He is such the spirited one, he does not seem to want to stop. A new battle seems to have begun. Hmmm. Hope to find some answers soon but wanted to reach out to you all who have children with the same dispositions to see how things went for you during this time.
Thanks!!!
Also, what about BF. My LO seems to still be quite attached to nursing. With my daughter at this age, she was mostly finished apart from BT. He is an acrobatic nurser as well as times. Anyone experience this?
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Hi AllaMJ thanks for the zipadee idea, I've never seen that one before but my DS would still eat his hands til the zipadee is drenched and soaking and I would have to change it. I've gone back to swaddling with the ergo which restricts his hands a bit as he hasn't yet mastered rolling over.
Hi Tinkerbell99 thank you for the links! Since my last post I've been a ssh/pat machine! Rocking is no longer! I never thought this would be possible with my spirited ds! And just as I started to feel confident I think at now 28 weeks he is going thru a sleep regression (not that he ever slept well) And now rocking and co sleeping (2 nights in a row so far, the first night it took 2hrs to rock him to sleep!). With the NW I would ssh pat and before I'm done he wakes up again or he will wake a few mins after I've left (even though he has been sleeping for a while with me still patting or with my hand on his bum) and this will continue all night long. Do I ride it out or is my day to blame? I'm struggling with his day naps as I can't seem to get it right. His first A time is 2hrs and the rest are 2.5hrs but no matter what there always seems to be a catnap that I have to fit in so that he will make it to bedtime, usu catnap falls past 16:00, but i stop his naps so its no later than 16:30 (is this too late). Do I need to increase his A time to get rid of the catnap? Or do I leave the catnap. Yesterday (maybe this was the problem) he was tired 1hr after waking (after 1hr35m nap) and I put him down but he only slept for about 25m. Pls let me know if you have any ideas! Thanks!
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Just an update. Today DS napped great but I'm not sure if this has ruined his night? I'm def not complaining bout his day nap which is usu not very good, but I can't seem to figure out what it is that is affecting his nw. Pls let me know if I should post this somewhere else, I'm still finding my way around the forum.
W 06:00
A 2hr (is this too short? And should i slowly push it to 2.5hr?)
S 2.5hr (is this too long I was thinking he could set his own sleep pattern? Plus maybe tired from a bad night?)
A 2.5hr
S 1hr (he woke happy but playing with his ear and then rubbing his eyes soon after)
A 3hr (he was struggling but should I have cn and pushed bt later?)
S 18:10 (20m)
And now this is where I am, DS won't settle, I'm ssh patting him but if he falls asleep he wakes a few mins later. This use to start at 1am, then at midnight, then at 23:00, then last night at 22:00 and now straight away. I think I might have to co sleep again tonight, I feel like I'm slowly throwing away my weeks of sleep training, even though he was having lots of nw at least he would settle for a couple hours at a time.
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It looks like his last A is possibly too long. So he is having ot wakeups ??? I would post your EASY routine in the EASY forum (its in the activity section on the main page) or in the night waking forum (in the sleep section of the main page) and include all the Es as well so everyone can see the whole picture :)
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Ok thank you. I will get my days written down and come back soon.
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The last few days ive been able to get him to sleep with a relatively short sshh/pat (it use to be at least an hr of screaming) but the NW are pretty bad. On Wed was my first AP since i started ssh/pat. I havnt mentioned the times i ssh/pat while he was lying in bed with me, just the times where i had to get up and rock him, as i didnt look at the time. Hope what i have written makes sense. Thanks!
WED 04/09/13
WU: 05:45 (play in cot, floor time before feeds to prevent vomiting)
E: 06:20 - 06:45 (10mg losec before feed)
A: 06:45 - 08:05 (2hr20m)
S: 08:05 - 10:05 (2hr, bed@07:45)
A: 10:05 - 10:45 (floor time)
E: 10:45 - 10:55
A: 10:55 - 12:47 (2hr42m, includes solids)
S: 12:47 - 14:00 (1hr13m, bed@12:30)
A: 14:00 - 14:45 (floor time, eye rubs seems tired)
E: 14:45 - 15:05 (10mg losec before feed)
A: 15:05 - 16:47 (2hr47m)
S: 16:47 - 17:10 (23m, capped cn, bed@16:30)
A: 17:10 - 19:30 (2hr20m, includes solids)
A: 18:10 - 18:20 (bath)
E: 18:25 - 18:35
S: 19:30 (bed@18:40)
NW: 23:30 (asleep@23:40)
NW: 00:05 (asleep@00:30)
NW: 01:00 (feed, tried to resettle in cot)
AP: 01:40 (rock and co sleep, asleep@03:00)
NW: 05:15 (unsettled but eyes closed, rock, asleep@5:30)
THU 05/09/13
WU: 06:10 (play in bed, floor time)
E: 07:20 - 07:40 (10mg losec before feed)
A: 07:40 - 08:45 (2hr35m)
S: 08:45 - 10:20 (1hr35m, bed@08:10)
A: 10:20 - 11:15
E: 11:15 - 11:25 (showing tired signs, so got ready for bed)
S: 12:15 - 12:40 (30m, coughed and woke, couldnt resettle, bed@11:35)
A: 12:40 - 15:40 (3hr)
E: 15:00 - 15:20 (10mg losec before feed)
S: 15:40 - 16:20 (40m, bed@15:30, i messed this one up coz i was out)
A: 16:20 - 18:55 (2hr25m)
A: 18:00 - 18:10 (bath)
E: 18:20 - 18:30
S: 18:55 (bed@18:35)
NW: 22:10 (asleep@22:16)
NW: 23:48 (asleep@23:51)
NW: 00:00 (feed, tried to resettle in cot, asleep@00:58)
NW/AP: 01:04 (rock and co sleep, asleep@01:30)
NW: 05:15 (rock, asleep@05:30)
FRI 05/09/13
WU: 06:40 (play in bed, nappy, then play in dh bed)
E: 07:20 - 07:45 (10mg losec before feed)
A: 07:45 - 09:05 (2hr25m)
S: 09:05 - 11:35 (2hr30m, bed@08:45)
A: 11:35 - 11:50 (floor time)
E: 11:50 - 12:05
A: 12:05 - 14:15 (2hr40m)
S: 14:15 - 15:10 (55m, bed@13:55)
A: 15:10 - 18:23 (3hr13m, messed this up)
E: 15:30 - 15:45 (10mg losec before feed)
A: 17:40 - 17:55 (bath)
E: 17:55 - 18:05
S: 18:23 (bed@18:10)
NW: 18:45 (asleep@19:10)
NW: 19:11 (asleep@19:32)
NW: 19:36 (asleep@21:00)
NW: 21:20 (asleep@21:40)
NW: 21:41 (asleep@21:50)
NW/AP: 00:15 (feed and fell asleep on bottle so i co slept)
NW: 03:30 (asleep@04:15)
NW: 05:15 (asleep@05:45)
WU: 06:55
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Hi,
Just an update, DS is fighting day naps now and sleeps only 30m at a time so I'm stuck in a overtired loop, maybe due to his nw. Not sure which to try and fix first... Or how.. Maybe up his A so I can get DS to 2 naps? It's been hard with him being so tired he barely lasts an hr. ..
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Yes, it looks like he definitely needs to drop that cn soon. At first glance it looks like Wednesday was too long A after a short cn, so he had ot nws, and Friday he refused his cn (?) So he got ot :( Do you think his reflux is under control right now? What is his dose of losec and how much does he weigh? The 30min naps and nws could also due to reflux so you should rule out that possibility.
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Hi!
Thx for the reply. How long should his A be after a cn? I thought the 'rule' (so to speak) is he shouldn't be sleeping too long for his cn and to have a normal A time? Maybe you could tell me what a typical day should look like in regards to A time. How long should his A time be after a 30m nap as that's what I'm in the middle of right now. DS is 10.7kg and on 20mg of losec which his paed and gastro paed thinks is fine. His reflux seems to be fine, I notice that on days he sleeps better he is able to play on his own, which I first thought was more to do with reflux causing him to not be happy to be by himself. His morning A is usu 2hrs, and his other A is 2.5hrs, should I slowly increase that? Once he is less overtired will his we stop? As he is waking at 5-5:30am around about.
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Hello,
Just found this thread! I am having an issue with EW from my 7 mo spirited baby (I have twins and the other is Textbook). He has had an EW problem since we moved 2 months ago. Wakes at 4:30 a.m. Before he would wake a lot at 5:30 which I know is not so much of an EW. Their EASY goes something like this (I say "something" because textbook baby has a higher need for sleep overall than the spirited one):
6:30 up, formula (textbook baby sleeps til 7 lately but mostly up at 6:30)
7:30 cereal w/ fruit
9:30-10:30 nap (textbook baby goes down around same time but sleeps a little longer)
10:30 formula
1:30-2:30 nap (again, textbook baby goes longer)
2:30 formula + veggies
5:15 dinner (either cereal w/ veggies or meat w/ veggies; working on introducing more proteins)
5:55 bath + formula bottle
6:30 bed
Going to bed is easy-peasy and spirited baby is in a good mood almost all the time. We recently dropped the CN and that did not stop the EW. He basically wakes at 4:30, babbles LOUDLY (i.e. interrupts my sleep but brother sleeps thru it) but nothing agitated & is not hungry (trust me, he lets me know when he's hungry!) Sometimes he falls back asleep 5:30-6:15ish, sometimes not. He shows absolutely no tired signs or OT signs in morning. So he will wake at 4:30, babble in crib til 6:30, come out for bottle & play happily til 9:30 nap. Tried wake to sleep last night at 3:30 and he still woke at 4:30, but I am not sure I woke him sufficiently. Any tips?
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Hi Eminvc,
My DS has been waking up at 4:30am too these past few night (last night at 4:10am) talking and showing no signs of going back to sleep only mine will become so tired that I have to try get him to sleep around the 2hr mark. The other nw during the night i can settle, but the 4:30am one is impossible. How did you go with dropping the catnap?
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Hi hellomama,
Well, I probably shouldn't have announced that I had dropped the CN, because yesterday we had an attack of the 45-minute naps and he had to take a CN because he woke up from his "afternoon nap" at 1:45. I did it all at once instead of increasing A time over several days, because he was actually UT for morning nap typically. So I just switched to lower-energy A and pushed until 9-9:30 depending on WU time. Moved the cereal feeding to 8:30 instead of 7:30 and then they sit in high chairs playing with plastic measuring cups, then I read stories to them in their high chairs. So it's all still a work in progress....did wake-to-sleep at 3:30 am and he made it to 5:30 this morning, babbled a bit and fell back asleep til 6:30!
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Hellomama - with a cn you can usually do a regular A time as long as the A time before isnt too long, AND its a 45min nap. I find that if I start cutting the cn shorter than 45 min then I have to really cut back the a time after th shortened cn.
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Eminvc I've been thinking of trying wake to sleep but haven't had the chance yet as DS seems to think its time to play in the middle of the night and he doesn't go back to sleep for a few hours.. I'm hoping the 3-2 helps solve some of his nw! How are you going?
Tinkerbell99 thanks for that, that makes a lot of sense and I don't know why I didn't see that earlier, I'm always second guessing myself and don't see straight. I was wondering how do I treat 45min and 30min naps while doing the 3-2? It seems I can't push his A after such short naps and it takes a while for me to get back on track with good nap times in order to push his A. How are you going with dd with your 3-2 transition?
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We are doing well, thanks for asking! I guess we are technically throught it, because she absolutely refuses a third nap these days. Its just a matter of trying to get good naps during the day, which doesnt always happen so we end up doing ebt a lot :(
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Anyone have ANY tips on how to APOP a very spirited boy back to sleep?
Every nap has become OT and I can't see an end in sight. Even after a 12 hour night, he still wakes OT. It's gotten pretty chaotic!
If I go in, he plays with me. If I stay away he cries so hard he starts to choke. The longer he cries for, the more impossible it is for him to go back to sleep. He does the typical spirited flailing limbs, screeching, calming himself, yawns, starts playing then back to wailing!
He is an outstanding self soother when he's not OT. I've tried everything and nothing is soothing him back to sleep after those 30 min OT naps...he usually ends up crying himself to sleep if I don't cave and get him up.
We are trying to tackle the 3-2 transition but its impossible with all this OTness I've created.
Also, he's been waking from 4:00am and dozing in and out of sleep until 6:00am. I always let him play in his crib for 30 mins or so before I go in but yesterday and today, he's been started to go back to sleep around 6:45 ish. I'm letting him do that because I'm desperate for him to catch up on sleep, but is that messing with his naps at all??
Tink- so happy to read you're doing so well with the 3-2 :)
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Tinkerbell99 that's great! Can't wait to be where you are right now!
Mandy.kamal hi, I don't have any advice but just wanted to say i understand as I'm going through OT naps too and it's getting worse and worse! I usually just have to get him up and try again in about 30m-1hr. I try rocking him and sometimes that would work but that's only if I'm in there fast enough. What I do is I sit next to his cot at 25m and wait for him to stir. You said that your DS usually cries himself to sleep if you don't go in and get him? How long do you let him cry for? I find my DS needs to cry a bit but because he is such a screamer I'm never sure how long is too long. Sometimes I rush in as I'm scared if I leave him too long I can't resettle him, and its usually the case, maybe I'm the reason why he can't self settle.
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Hellomama, I hate to hear we are in the same situation. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy!!
As far as letting him cry when he wakes, I can tell when he's soothing vs wanting me. The 'I need you' cry for my DS is very intense and he usually starts choking he cries so hard and I get in there immediately! But he usually fusses/squeals which turns into his mantra whine right before he drifts back off.
Has the wake to sleep been working for you? That's the one thing I have never tried! He's such a good self soother and I feel like I'm always just a distraction when I go to help him. I either get him excited or he will cry harder. So odd!
We have the same issue as you though in regards to crying too long and then being impossible to settle! It honestly just depends on the say with us...I never really know!
I hope your sleep issues fix soon....this is beyond painful!
How old is your DS?
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My boy is 7 months tomorrow (21st). Oh how time flies! And yours?
DS is the same with his cries, choke cry means get in here now but his mantra cry usu never leads to him falling asleep, it just goes on and on. How long is the longest that your DS will mantra cry before falling asleep? Maybe I just need to leave him longer and risk him being OT. Do you put DS down a while before his sleep window or at his sleep window?
To be honest, I haven't tried the wake to sleep as I'm sooooo scared he won't settle again as he has never really self soothed before. Every sleep needs my help. I'm so desperate for sleep so I'm just not brave enough.
I've just had a 15min nap and couldn't resettle! It's going to be a fun day!
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So here's how wake to sleep went for us:
night 1--woke him at 3:30 (he's been waking at 4:30). He woke up at 4:30 anyway. Think I didn't jostle him quite enough to "wake."
night 2--woke him at 3:30. He slept until 5:00.
night 3--he woke at 3:23 and proceeded to babble and play and make noise until about 5, then fell back asleep sometime around 6...and woke up at 6:15. Joke's on me!
night 4--I gave up on wake to sleep.
Sigh. He is now waking at 5-5:30, an improvement over 4:30.
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Eminvc I was going to do wake to sleep and then DS started wake at random times. Can't win haha. At least you tried and gave it your best. Hope things are going well.
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Hello Everyone!!
I am new to the spirited board but not the forum. I have a spirited baby. What a change from my angel one :P DS2 is 6 mths old and likes sleeping exactly 30 min for naps and bedtime. UT, OT or right on time who knows as it is always 30 min! Well maybe not all, we have had 5 1.5 hrs naps without resettling in 6 mths.
Recently we have had TONS of night wakings, it has slowed down now, but still painful to say the least. I do not cosleep as I am not a fan, but if I know he would not night wake as often, likely only to feed at 11ish and 3ish. He is still on 2 naps and a catnap and gawd forbid he can resettle himself - ugh! My personality is so not suited for the spirited type - any advice? Do you try and get a full nap, or just give up at 30 minutes and move on with life?
Things to mention:
-hates to be swaddled, has been in sleepsac for 3 mths but the arms, the flailing arms! We just tried 2 nights of no sleepsac and just a blanket, no better, no worse. Also tried his tummy last night, but it only last 1 hr.
-uses soother to get to sleep; has never fallen asleep for nap or bedtime without it; throughout night he does not use it, unless to resettle
- average size baby
-on 2.15 min A time, have tried for 2.5 today - will see what happens (well - nap is over and you guessed it, 30 minutes, with 1 hr of trying to resettle in which he fell kinda asleep in arms, but woke up the second I set him down even though it had been 25 min of me holding him to resettle!!)
-we call his room the dungeon as we spend every nap resettling. It goes like this on good day: sleep 30 min; resettle for 20-30; sleep for 30-40. Its getting very tedious and as his A time increases it exceeds his 4 hr feeds so then even though he has barely slept I feel I need to wake so he doesn't wake even more at night!
-shh/pat works 30% of time but usually hold and rock and soother is the only way, but like today that doesnt even work.
-he sleeps 50% better in carrier, but I cant wear it 3x day plus not sure that is very good sleep training
-also started food recently as thought itwould help, it hasnt
What the heck is my EASY going to look like with 30 min naps, BF every 4 hrs and also eating an hr after BFing - isnt it all going to jam together? When will I take care of DS1, and life in general???
Sorry its all over the place, but pls advice from some other parents of spirited ones would be great!
Lost in the dungeon,
Jemimah
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Hmmm, it sounds like the soother may be interfering with learning to resettle himself. I know with dd2 we ended up just weaning it because when I went in to replug at 30min, she just got super excited to see me and wouldn't resettle. I would also keep increasing his A time to hopefully drop his cn, dd2 is 6.5months and has been cn free for over a month now, so you definitely need to be slowly increasing his A time so he has 2 nap days.
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Thanks so much for the feedback! Will try increasing A time slowly, as I know that must be a factor. And for that darn soother, I suppose I should just throw it out!!
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Any chance you can provide EASY for me to aim for that does not have CN?
Right now we try for this:
WU/BF:6.30
A: solids:7.30
S:8.45-10.15
A: 10.15
BF: 10.30
A: solids: 11.30
S:12.30-2
A:2
BF: 2.30
A:solids 3.30
BF: 4 (have to pick up family so have to BF early, instead of after nap as we dont get home till 5.30)
S: 4.15-4.45
BF: 6.30 top up
B: 7
Much appreciated, Lisa
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Hi guys
DD is 11months and I've posted on other forums about her sleep difficulties.. Just browsing here and I wonder if it is OT that has her awake and screeching for about 2 hrs most nights since she was a month or two old. It always turns into whining, mantra cries and eventually real cries....at they point we go into her and usually she will settle within 20 min ( tho in my arms) and can be put down in cot again half adleep. What does OT appear like.. Flailing limbs, hopping round the cot, screeching and cooing loudly enough to wake us all? Cos if so maybe this is the issue
Thanks
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Jemimah - So sorry I didnt reply earlier! A 2 nap day will look different for every LO...I think I was able to get my girls having 2 nap days once I got their A time up to 2.5hrs, then 3hrs before bed, as long as they were also doing 2hr naps which didnt always happen, so we had lots of early bedtimes :P
Newbabe - I wonder if she is in pain. Any chance she has teeth coming in or getting ready to come in?
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Thanks Tinkerbell.. But don't think so.. Often medicate her, but the reality is this has been her pattern since she was tiny..
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If you go in right away and sit with her does she settle right away? Or does she still take as much time as it would if you left her until she got to the real cry?
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That's a good question.. It's been so long since we gave gone in straight away! I might give it a try!
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Do you have an international kindle? I know RYSC is available on kindle... Otherwise, I can try to grab a copy on amazon and send it to you, its a godsend and no mummy to a spirited LO should be without it!
What is RYSC? I have a spirited baby!
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A must read book ;)
http://www.amazon.ca/Raising-Your-Spirited-Child-Perceptive/dp/0060923288
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Hi guys
DD is 11months and I've posted on other forums about her sleep difficulties.. Just browsing here and I wonder if it is OT that has her awake and screeching for about 2 hrs most nights since she was a month or two old. It always turns into whining, mantra cries and eventually real cries....at they point we go into her and usually she will settle within 20 min ( tho in my arms) and can be put down in cot again half adleep. What does OT appear like.. Flailing limbs, hopping round the cot, screeching and cooing loudly enough to wake us all? Cos if so maybe this is the issue
Thanks
Newbabe,
I found with my baby that when he is OT if I will hold him (he likes being held upright so he can see over my shoulder) and do a variety of rocking, moving, shushing, patting, etc. that within about 5-10 minutes he is usually asleep. However, if I lay him down in bed when he is OT, he will usually keep himself awake moving, kicking, talking, etc. for an hour or more. Containing him in my arms seems to be what works best for him to calm down enough to fall asleep. Sometimes he refuses to be contained so I lay him down and then pick him up a little later if he still hasn't gotten to sleep. Occasionally he is able to fall asleep on his own, but not usually. He is almost 5 months old now.
Hope this is helpful.
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Hi I really need a support and help. I ammother of 6 month old LO veeery spirited. We have so big sleep difficulties :(. He isin OT cycle about 2 months or more going worse every day. I have no method to make him sleep. Everything stops working - breastfeeding, roking, swinging, boucing :(:(:(. During day he seelp in the pram but it also stops working now i have to move it back and forward all the time and he cries a lot, during night breastfeeding and bottel and he wakes many many many just after bottel or nippel. Please support.He is so ot all the time - you know what i mean i can't put him down even in my arms he is crying - what to do ? I was thinging about uppd - but scary about it... Now he is ill and tried to make him sleep today at home, tring for about 2 hours - bouncing and breast feeding he finally felt asleep but for 5 minutes! I don;t know what to do, i am so exhausted. We have no plan. and he is short napper.
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Hugs hun
If he is ill, there isnt much you can do :( What is his schedule like normally? I found with both my girls that if I thought they were ot, it was only because I was putting them down too early for sleep, so they were short napping because they were undertired making them overtired, if that makes sense.
If he isnt an independent sleeper I would probably work on that, it actually is so much easier with spirited babies when you teach them how to put themselves to sleep. Have you tried shh/pat? Pu/pd didnt work so well with my babies, but using shh/pat to calm them in the crib so they could put themselves to sleep worked much better ;D
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Hi Kabik, oh dear sounds like you're having a tough time of it just now :(
Wondering if you have looked into reflux and silent reflux as it sounds like your LO might be in discomfort and unable to settle to sleep regardless of what you try. Not all refluxers spit up huge amounts of milk, there are other signs which you might not be aware of. I had mine checked by several GPs and HVs before finally getting a diagnosis (and meds) from a paediatrician.
Reflux 101 - General reflux information
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Hello! I'm new to this forum and wanted to join in in the conversation on spirited babies in hopes that you might have some tips for a first time mommy! My spirited little girl is 15 weeks (12 days overdue so 17 weeks corrected). Since starting EASY 2 weeks ago, I have gotten her sleeping in her crib (woohoo!) by swaddling and on a more regular eating and sleeping schedule (although it varies every day!!) I have a few obstacles to tackle and maybe someone who has been there and done that will have some insight :)
She HATES being swaddled but certainly needs it in order to fall asleep. Unfortunately, she busts her arms out and her hands and fingers just wake her up more (she sucks on her fingers but it doesn't soothe her and she doesn't take a pacifier) and so I know she is eventually going to have to be un-swaddled. However, I'm worried because she flails and cries before falling asleep (even in her swaddle) and I have to hold her in my arms because I can't put her down in her crib unless she's asleep (otherwise she wakes, plays and then works herself into a full cry until I pick her up and settle her)!
So my question is two-fold.
Right now I only have to hold her for about 6-10 minutes after she falls asleep (which usually occurs after 1-10 minutes of crying) before I put her down (and I'm trying to decrease this every time); will there come a time where I can put her down and she'll fall asleep without crying and being held? And if so, how do I help her to get there? Or do spirited babies always cry before sleep? Should I just place her in the crib and let her cry in there while I stand beside for reassurance? Thinking about letting her cry 'un-held' seems sad to me but is there really a difference between my arms or the crib - she clearly seems angry at me for swaddling her making her go to sleep!
And what do I do about the swaddle? Do I continue to encourage independent sleep with the swaddle and then wean her from it once she can get to sleep without flailing and crying OR do I work on independent sleep without the swaddle?
Thank you mommas for your help :)
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Hi there. I just had a (very brief) look at your EASY on another thread. Have you started to increase her A and E times and move to the 4hr EASY yet? Could be that she is crying because she just isn't ready for sleep yet and wants to see a bit more of the world before her nap.Time to Transition - 3hr, 3.5hr or 4hr EASY
A longer A time can also help to increase the length of naps which I see are sometimes 45 mins and sometimes 1.5hr. She may be UT.
If you want to start getting her in the cot awake you can begin by your usual holding as part of wind down then PD when she is drowsy, you can continue to have your hands on her and shush/pat to reassure.
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Maybe consider a zip up swaddle like the woombie
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Hi Creations! I just looked at that transition link yesterday as in the past two days she's skipped her cat nap, has independently increased her A time (on some but not all of them), and has slept a little longer on some of her naps. I'm starting a variation today :) I'm not sure she can go 4 hr stretches in the day (EBF) so I'll start with 3.5 hours between feeds, 2 hr A time, and two naps and a cat nap! Since I've been tracking her for the last 3 weeks she's never really had more than 4 hrs of naps so I'm hoping this works way better for her! I'm going to try your suggestion about putting her down earlier if the longer A time helps with the crying, but in the past when I have done shush/pat from the crib she's gotten pretty worked up :(
Hi Ali! The Baby's R Us where I am only had small sized Wombie's so I didn't think they made them larger. I'll check it out! Thanks!
While I have you here I have one more question! She typically wakes between 6-7 am (more often 6) and so I start her day then. Today she woke at 530, I fed her and she slept until 7. How do you get your feed schedule back on track when they aren't hungry at 7 because of a feed at 530?
Thanks ladies!
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Just feed in the middle of her A time :) As long as the feed ends about 30min before nap time she shouldnt come to rely on it to sleep.
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Yes woombie do 3 sizes, 0-3, 3-6 & 6-12mo. my ds2 was in his until 8mo. They even do a convertible one with arm holes that have snaps which you can open to leave one or both arms out.
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Thanks Ali! I'm going to look for them! How was your son when you weaned him out of them? How did you know he was ready? Did he cry before sleep as well?
On a positive note, Day 1 of 4 hr EASY is going exactly to the schedule! (I thought she needed to eat more but I guess I'm wrong!) I had to do a short shush/pat to extend nap one, but it has taken less than 10 minutes to do wind down and put her in her crib! Go figure! :)
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Great update!
Just a note on the 5.30am WU. Tracy did say it was very normal for babies this age to start waking any time between 4 and 6am and if they are not shouting/crying for you then leave them in bed, it's one of those 'don't rush in' times when you can reinforce the WU by either feeding or helping to get them back to sleep where as if left alone they may lay awake for a good while but eventually go back to sleep. Obviously if your baby is hungry then yes feed :)
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Hi Creations! I will pay more attention to that if it happens again tomorrow morning. She had last eaten at 1 am so had gone 4 hours without food - I did notice that she settled herself at 5 am, but wake at 530 so I assume she woke from hunger?! I was more thinking - if I feed her now I can get her to sleep until 7 rather than having a 6 am wake up! I don't love having to put her to bed at 630 every night. :(
Kendra
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He was still loving the swaddle but had outgrown the Moses basket and looked ready to roll in the cot so I weaned it purely for safety. I did one arm out of the convertible and then the other a few days later. I had to help him with his arms for a few days but then he started rolling and sleeping on his side/front and the arms were kept in place against the mattress :)
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I did notice that she settled herself at 5 am, but wake at 530 so I assume she woke from hunger?! I was more thinking - if I feed her now I can get her to sleep until 7 rather than having a 6 am wake up!
Yes that makes sense too :)
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Hello ladies, it was my first night after a 4 hr EASY day and I need some insight!
7 wake (ate at 530)
7:30 feed
9-10 nap (woke at 10 I thought she was hungry but I was wrong!)
Resettled and napped 10:15-11:05 (I woke)
11 feed
1-1:40 nap resettled with S/P
1:50-3 nap
3 feed
4:50-5:30 nap (I woke)
6:20 bath (she started to get fussy here)
6:30 feed
Asleep at 7:35 (it took awhile to get her to sleep!)
8:45 woke up (resettled with S/P and out of room by 9:10)
10:45 dream feed
1:15 she woke and I fed (I should have resettled in retrospect!)
1:45 woke, had to re swaddle and HTTJ (jerking of her legs when in crib keeps her awake) out of room at 2
3:35 woke up (resettled with S/P out of crib then in crib and out of room at 4)
4:45 fed a small amount (I stopped her)
6 she woke (resettled in crib and out by 6:10)
7 wake up (she was in crib awake and happy with both arms out of the swaddle)
Why do you think there was so much night waking?! Normally she's up twice. In the past three weeks she's done this twice and I think it was because of a growth spurt. Could it be because her naps were disrupted? I don't think she got too much day sleep (according the the BW) and she was still tired when she woke in the middle of her naps, but I read (on another site) that naps should not exceed 3 hours total for the day after the newborn stage and she got 4hours 40mins! Or, could it be the darn swaddle she keeps busting out of (I ordered a woombie!) Or, could it just be the new routine?
Thank you :)
Kendra
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Erratic night wakes can happen when LO needs to go up to the 4hr EASY and during the transition whilst they settle into it. There's a GS at 4 months too. I don't think she had too much day sleep, sounds normal and well within the average to me.
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It could also be that she is busting out of the swaddle. I hope the new Woombie helps too.
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So Medi is 5.5 months and I've finally accepted she is very very spirited. I was in denial about it for a long time :p. she is wild. That's the only way to describe her. If she's smiling, she lights up the room. And she never stops moving. She's already on her hands and knees, can stand on her own if she has something to hold on to, and bounces like tigger. This is lovely and great but she wants to do it at 3 am :(. We've been having horrible nw's that go on for hours and hours, where she's rolling around and playing. She is gorgeous but oh my she's exhausting.
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Yes I think my Hugh is spirited too. He's happy but energetic when awake so initially I didn't realise he was spirited but I've realised he growls and shouts when he's not happy and knows what he wants more and more as he gets bigger. He is 7 months. Hi Sarah, we've 'met' on each others threads! Similar issues!!
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Hi to other spirited mamas out there!
I'm really struggling and sadly not enjoying my gorgeous little boy anywhere near as much as I want to.
We have issues with feeding (pulling off both breast and bottle, straining to sit up, getting fussy at both breast and bottle but getting fussy when they're taken away, not eating full meals and therefore eating often.)
We have issues with sleeping. If I'm lucky he'll nap for half an hour, but most of the time it's twenty minutes and he's constantly overtired...I spend the whole day trying to get him to sleep and not enough time playing. If he wasn't overtired I could accept the catnaps but he gets fractious because he's so tired. He hates his cot and wants to co-sleep - which we do at night to make it easier so we all get some sleep. He rarely shows tired signs just all of a sudden buries his head in my shoulder or goes into the "zone" - which I know is already nearly too late, especially when you need to spend time winding down a spirited baby.
Tried pupd to get him used to the cot and less dependent on his sleep prop (breastfeeding) but man did he scream and scream to the extent that he lost his voice. He fell asleep on us as we picked him up and woke up as we put him down (repeat) - we felt like we were torturing him. He doesn't relax or wind down or calm very easily. He flips from mantra cry to help me cry extremely quickly....
He often takes his first nap of the day very soon after waking up (staring into the zone an hour or less after wake up) and can often put himself to sleep after some light grizzling - not every day, but most - his nap lasts twenty minutes, and then he is unable to fall asleep independently for the rest of the day - he needs to be either jiggled in the cot (after a LOT of crying, sometimes 45 mins) or he has to be carried in the front pack, or get in bed with me. I don't want to keep giving in and getting him in bed but it gets to the point where I just think he needs to sleep so it has to be done.
I'm at the stage where I'm getting depressed as I can't get out and do anything or see anyone as he is overtired for the whole day after an hour of waking up as he never gets the refreshing sleep he needs. At night I have to go to bed early with him to co sleep and never see my partner. I'm at breaking point....help!
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Hello, lovey, I'm sure the cavalry will be here in a moment but I wanted to offer some hugs and support. Do you have an carrier at all? Maybe you could AP some naps in there and get out the door. I would definitely *not* feel bad about APing naps, I think you both need a bit of a break. Maybe give yourselves a day or two off 'officially' and then start again when you feel you have a plan.
Please don't beat yourself up that PU/PD did not work with him, it often doesn't for spiriteds, they just get more and more wound up. My LO1 was touchy (with a fair bit of spirit..!) and I implemented the 4s sleep ritual fairly religiously to get him to nap well. It did work and there were very few tears, so perhaps a gentler method might work for you both. I'm thinking 4S with Gradual Withdrawal, so you help him relax with the sh-pat and the gradually dial that down over a few weeks until he no longer needs so much help. Bear in mind that sh-pat often needs to be modified for spiriteds as they might prefer rubbing to patting and humming to shushing, or whatever!
With my nap mod hat on, I'd say the 20 min WU for his first nap, is him not being able to transition from light to deep sleep. Have you tried gently laying a hand on him around the 20 min mark? That sort of thing might help him get through the jolts and into deeper sleep. With LO1, I had a few weeks of staying by his cot til the 20 min mark and helping him through that, once he was past those jolts, he slept like a log for his nap, and he also learned to do without the help.
What does a good wind down consist of (Includes 4S ritual)
Short naps - why does my baby wake after 20 minutes?
Shush-pat - How to.
Please make sure to look after yourself - baby needs a happy mamma, the rest of it matters a whole lot less. Can you get some time alone to do something nice for yourself? A massage? I found even a coffee alone can be a real pick me up when I've had too much.
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Lots of hugsto you hun!
How old is he? Is it possible he has reflux? Both my spiriteds were also refluxers and often woke at 20min from pain.
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Ah these spirited babies, they sure keep you on your toes xxx. I find I have to be very consistent with all our nap and bedtime rituals, and that she is tired enough for sleep. She also really enjoys 5-10 minutes in her cot with her stuffed bunny before I get her changed for bed. It helps her to roll around and play and get it out of her system ready to go to sleep.
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spiritedmama how old is your lo? I have had three spirited babies of varying degrees. DD2 was touchy as well and took the most effort to sleep train. Honestly I never even attempted pu/pd with any of them as I just knew it would not fly! DD1 was fine with white noise and me by the crib, DD2 needed her own version of shh/pat and a strict set nap schedule and DD3 is so high energy and low sleep needs that if I dont give her long enough A times her naps are short and hard to apop back to sleep.
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He is 4 months...I guess he must be a bit touchy too? He is SO hard to calm down when he's in a rage - which most often happens at bed/nap time.
I am tempted to impose a schedule but then what if it doesn't fit in with his actual tired signs? Struggling to get him on any kind of routine - even tho Tracy deems in her sleep book, that this is what HAS to happen. What if you simply can't???
For the first time ever today, he napped for 1.5 hours - after a 2 hour A time. But I just tried to get him down for his afternoon nap about 2 hours afterwards, thinking it was the longer A time that had done it and he only napped 10 mins and woke in a rage.
Shh pat doesn't work for him. I have to jiggle his tummy as though he is being rocked but in the cot. And this can take up to half an hour to work - sometimes only for the sake of a 20 min nap.
Thanks for all your help guys...I sure wish I could find the magic answer. Going crazy here!
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He does sound like my DD2 a bit - we ran strictly by the clock and when she needed her A time upped I would do it all in one shot, but in a low key way. So if I was adding 15 min those min were spent walking in the darkened hallway or something.
2 hrs is about the average A time at 4 months, but since he is not used to it it may take a few days for him to adjust to it. Do you use white noise for sleep times at all?
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yes...rain sounds...it's the winding down thats hard...he needs a lot of help and it's very hard to calm him either from a rage, distress or from simply being wired and energised.
We could possibly do with darkening the room out. At night it works better because it's dark. But singing, and even rocking sometimes doesnt calm him. How do you guys do it? He gets SO tired but not drowsy at all. More erratic and OT than simply sleepy. He goes from 0 to 60 if that makes sense.....
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It's hard when they're so inconsistent. Darkening the room should help a lot. Medi doesn't get drowsy either. Tbh I pretty much do set nap times with her now as she doesn't show much sleepy signs. But I think your lo is probably still too young for that yet.
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I definitely watched the clock for LO1, as a guide really. Once I'd figured out whether the average A time worked, I could adjust from there. And do adapt sh-pat to what works for him, just remember to make it something you can work on reducing.
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Set naps can work for some babies even very young - DD2 did them from 3 weeks, with each leap in A time I just adjusted the set time. She is still a schedule junkie!
Do you do the same winddown every time? I found that helped here, as did a darkened room so there was nothing to look at!
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I cant do any sort of wind down with dd2, she goes bananas with anger! I literally wait for her tired sign (yawn for her nap), or bedtime (usually after a set pm A) and just turn on her rain sounds, sit with her until calm and plop her into bed!
I found both my LOs needed more than average A times, especially after a good nap.
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I've recently found humming a gentle lullaby over and over helps my spirited DS sleep when me saying a soothing phrase didnt. Also white noise tho we have had to tone that down as it got to be a prop. At 8 months he's just starting to get the idea of a routine And longer naps (after lots of APing and struggles). But keep at it I didn't really get serious with sleep training til around 5 weeks ago.
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Thanks for all suggestions/advice, ladies! I'll be trying a few things and experimenting with A times. Wind down is a work in pogress as i havent found anything that works yet...
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I think, often with spiriteds, less is more. Start by doing almost nothing, just hold him, work out how he likes to be held best, maybe in a particular position? My LO2 didn't like being held upright, she would always wriggle herself over into a horizontal position. Or, very tightly? Or, not? And then add in just a gentle rub, or a hum, or a whispered word. It may well be that he needs something but really not all that much. A times may help a lot, as if he's ready for sleep, he may need less wind-down.
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Our wind down takes 60 seconds tops! Diaper, into sleeping bag, white noise on, in bed!
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I think, often with spiriteds, less is more.
This was definitely the case with my LO. She can finally handle a few stories now (20 months) but when she was younger it was diaper, pjs, white noise on, quick cuddle (2-3 minutes tops) and down.
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Oh yes, too much wind down = wind up! No way can I read books to Medi before her nap, she gets sooooo excited.
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Please help me I am really struggling. My little girl is 8 weeks old and I think is a mix of touchy/spirited. In the day time she is a lovely, happy little thing but from late afternoon it's like she turns into a little devil! We have always struggled to get her to settle at the evening despite having a consistent bedtime routine since about 4 weeks. She just won't settle and can be sound asleep on us and then as soon as we put her down she wakes and either grumbles escalating to a scream or just screams straight away. Other nights she screams in our arms even. It normally takes 2 or 3 hours to settle her and it's exhausting. She has reflux and the medication does seem to have helped her feeding issues. But I don't know what to do to help sleep time. I have tried to implement a routine and limit her day time sleep and make sure she is having enough awake time but it doesn't seem to help. I wake her from naps in the morning only to find she won't take any naps from 4 ish. If I let her sleep as long as she wants then she won't settle as she is wide awake. She hates swaddling. Any advice anyone?
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Your LO sounds very similar to my DD at that age. Even though she fought it, we did find swaddling helped improve her sleep (once we could get her asleep) but you know your LO best so if she hates it, leave her unswaddled. We used the 5s's (swinging, shushing/white noise, swaddling, side position, and sucking). You can find some good videos on YouTube. This technique was a life saver. The first few times, it took a while to get her to sleep (30 min-1h) but it was an improvement over 2-3 hours. Once I got the hang of it, I could get her from top-of-her-lungs wailing to asleep in 5-10 minutes. At that age, she also had a lot of naps in the swing (and often the first chunk of the night).
What does a typical day look like?
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Thanks for your advice. So do you put to sleep On her side? Typical day varies a fair but, yesterday looked like this...
E 3.30
E 7.30
A 1h
S 8.40-10.45 (on and off 1h 45)
E 11.00
A 1h 30
S 12.15-14.00 (1h 45)
E 14.15
A 1h
S 15.00-15.30 (30 min)
A 1h
E 18.30
S really unsettled. Finally settled 10.39
I am religiously waking her after morning and mid-afternoon naps but then really, really struggle to get her to sleep anytime after that, even in my arms. I only managed to get her to sleep 30 min yesterday as we were in the car. I'm really at my wits end!
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She sounds very OT to me. She's still so young that I would hold off waking her from naps if it were me, until she finds her own ryhthm. Is there a reason that you've been waking her?
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Thanks mj&n. I've just been waking her based on suggestions I've read online and in books. I was thinking that if I let her sleep too long then it would affect her night sleep. Would you let her sleep on regardless of time of day (morning vs afternoon)? I've been trying to ensure that she wakes no less than an hour before her bed time so that she's tired enough to sleep at that point. It's my first baby and I'm so overwhelmed by all the info out here and I know I do have a habit of trying to 'fix' things. I know it's a case of most babies are unsettled until 3mos but I just want to do all I can to make it easier for both of us :-)
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I know I do have a habit of trying to 'fix' things.
I have the same habit - I'm still trying to kick it 21 months in! I agree with MJ&N about letting her sleep. I used to wake DD (over DH's protests) and it turns out he was right - waking her did not improve her nights. The days he was in charge and let her have really long late afternoon naps didn't really impact the evening or the night. At 8 weeks I'd probably just go with the flow with naps (easy to say in hindsight). At that age my DD was usually taking 4 (and sometimes) 5 naps on a good day.
We did put DD on her side or tummy to sleep. I know it's not recommended but it improved her sleep so much. When setting her when she was crying, we always held her on her side or stomach. Here's a link to some videos about the technique that worked for us: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=5s%27s+karp
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Would you let her sleep on regardless of time of day (morning vs afternoon)?
She is still sorting herself out, really, and will settle into her own pattern if you let her (I hope!).
I would wake her when it is time to feed, if she has gone say more than 30mins over her allotted feed time. I really only tried to balance out the Es when DS was this little, and it's a good way to start. Otherwise, as you say, it all becomes overwhelming!
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Thank you ladies, I really appreciate your advice. I'm starting today afresh and not going to wake her. Re only waking her if she's gone over her estimated fees time, will she not just wake herself when she is hungry? She normally goes 4h between feeds so I guess I should work on that? I will also make sure she has enough awake time. It's just all so difficult, and with all the conflicting information it's tough to know whT to do :D
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She normally goes 4h between feeds so I guess I should work on that?
She's 8 weeks, right? She should be feeding approx every 3 hours then, which should mean she needs less at night.
I will also make sure she has enough awake time.
I really wouldn't worry about this, she will spend most of her awake time eating at this stage. And all babies are different, some are just sleepy. Is she awake a lot in the night?
As an example, my DS is low sleep needs and used to wake waaay before his feed time. Nothing I did could make him sleep longer (still the same now, sigh) and so I just let him wake up, play, fed him at approx 3 hours and then played again until he was ready to sleep. The guidelines in Tracy's book (and in other places) are just that, guidelines - you have to get to know your own child and work out what is best for them. As long as you are following EASY you will avoid the 'feed to sleep' prop which can seriously backfire on you later.
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She only wakes once in the night, we are really lucky. It's this evening unsettled period we are trying to sort. So today I've pretty much let her do what she wants but still follow the easy routine and she has slept loads. But she has also had a fair bit of awake time. She's quite alert and does seem to want to spend time after eating interacting with me and toys but I do put her in her cot as soon as she shows signs of tiredness.
Friday
E 2.30
E 5.55
E 9.20
A 2h
S 11.30-14.50 (3h 20) she was so tired I wanted to let her sleep and she had taken more overnight than she normally would have
E 14.50
A 1h 25
S 16.15
I just want to make sure I do right by her :)
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You are trying and thinking and caring - that's all that counts as 'doing right'.
A word of warning - my guy is six now so I have no recent experience and may have forgotten a lot. That said, a couple of questions spring to mind:
Are you counting her A from wakeup or from when she stops eating?
Your gap between her feeds looks long to me. 9.20am to 14.50am, have I got that right??
As an example, this was roughly our feeding routine at her age: 7am, 10am, 1pm, 3pm, 5pm, 7pm. Plus two night feeds. I cluster fed in the afternoon as the dream feed just made him wake more at night.
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I am counting her awake time from the time she opens her eyes until the time she goes to sleep. There was a long gap today because I just let her sleep as long as she wanted. I figured she had some catching up to do. She does take quite a lot of feed (about 150ml) and she's a good weight so I figured it wouldn't do any harm as a one off. I do tend to cluster feed her too and then she only wakes once at night (last night 2.30 and then 6am for her breakfast. If I stick to the 3h routine I will have to go back to waking her after 2h as she does normally tend to want to be awake for at least an hour. So then I'll be back to square one. This is where my confusion lies :) ???
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Hi all, as this has now reached 30 pages I have locked the post, please continue to support one another here:
Sleep and EASY support for spirited babies