PLEASE HELP! 5 month old no routine

[kmalbin]

Hi everyone,

I found this forum whilst desperately googeling how to get my baby to sleep as he wakes every hour sometimes more ALL NIGHT LONG to the point I end up sleeping on the sofa with him on my chest (I know this is not ideal but I'm scared to have him in our bed as hubby is a heavy sleeper).

Tyler is 5 months old, he used to sleep through the night from 8 weeks old until 16 weeks when he got bronchiolitis quite bad and its just gotten worse from there.  He was in hospital 4 weeks ago with bronchiolitis again and he is now just getting over chicken pox (I have a 4 year old daughter too)

So, I am at my wits end, I'm getting no sleep and I get no help during the day so no time to catch up on sleep as Summer (my daughter) is a busy girl and doesn't take naps anymore.

I found the EASY routine and am looking for some guidance on how to get Tyler into this routine as atm I have to rock him to sleep every time and once he's put in his cot, he wakes up!

His nap times are no where near as long as EASY says they should be unless I am cuddling him and he feeds 3 hourly on the dot, is he not sleeping at night coz hes not getting enough sleep during the day?

I dont know what to do anymore.

Please help.

Kirsty x

[liveandlove]

Hi Kirsty,

I wanted to send you some support and encouragement.    Hang in there, Mum. 

I'm new to this too, have a few of the same issues, and also am just starting EASY.  Have you read either of Tracy's books?  I think "The Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems" (referred to as "SAYP" on this board) is excellent: clear, organized, and detailed; even better than "Secrets of the Baby Whisperer" .

If you're willing to take advice from someone who hasn't much knowledge or experience (yet), I'll note that Tracy emphasizes not to start something and not finish it--it will just confuse him, and you won't see progress.  You might want to start by learning about the methods.  Here's one on starting EASY.  It also directs you where to find more in-depth info.  Browse the boards by topic (e.g. how to extend naps; tips for when you have more than one child), or search on specific concerns.

I hope you can start when you are well-rested, well-informed, and well-supported by equally committed, helpful family members.  That's the ideal, anyway.  Best of luck to you. 

[kmalbin]

Hi, thanks for the reply, I was getting disheartened seeing replies to other posts and not mine lol!

I haven't read any of the books, I only stumbled across this site in a desperate search for help but it does look amazing, and dare i say simple, once in place.

Thank you for the links, I have this morning tried the shush-pat but he was having none of it, I did however get him to sleep for 2 hours by rocking him when he woke after 30 mins, I know I need to cut that out!

I'm also confused about which routine to put him in, as he is hungry, to the point he screams the house down every 3 hours and not a minute longer.

Where he's been poorly, he's feeds have dramatically reduced.  He used to drink 7oz 3 hourly at 3 months, which i was told was too much, it then cut down to 2 oz 3 hourly and I've finally got him back up to 5oz 3 hourly.  Is there info on how much he should be having?

Will have a nose through the site and see what info I can get.

I hope it goes smoothly for you x

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Hi!  Don't know if I'll be able to help cos there are others much more knowledgeable / experienced than me but generally the first thing you'll be asked is to post your day in the following format:

E: (what did he eat,  when and how much)
A: how long was he awake for?  What times?
S: What times did he sleep from and to?
etc. Until the day is done.

It doesn't matter if things didn't happen in that order,  just post how your days are going (or how yesterday went) and someone will be able to take a look.

Is he completely better now or do you think he's still suffering?

Re: feeds I can't help there much but I think they all drink different amounts really!  My 5 month old is just starting on bottles but seems to drink about 5ozs every 3.5 hours but my daughter at this age was having 6-12ozs every 4 hours.  I've always just given them what they want as they've never had any weight gain issues.

[kmalbin]

Hi, that helps about the feeds, I was getting worried coz HV always says demand feed, but the hospital said I shouldnt be doing that as hes on formula :-/ he is a chunky boy, but def not overweight!

I think he's pretty much 100% again, he's just very scabby, lol.  How do you deal with poorly babies, does the routine change, do you stick to it? I'm lost :-(

Ok, so I'll post what he did yest, and then what I've tried today after reading info on this site

Yesterday

E 6:30am
A 7am
S 9am (20 mins)
Y = NONE LOL
E 9:30 am then straight to sleep for an hour in my arms after a huge screaming fit
A 10:30
E 12:30 then
S 10 mins woke up grumpy - tried to rock back to sleep and had another screaming fit finally fell asleep at 1:15ish
A 2:30
E 3:30
A 4pm
S 5pm (1 hour) in my arms
A 6pm
E 6:30
A 7pm
E 9:30 straight to sleep after screaming fit
E 11pm dreamfeed 1oz
E 2:30am then finally gave up trying to get him back to sleep in his cot at 4am and got comfy on sofa where he fell asleep until
E 5:30am then back to sleep until 7am

then today

E 7am
A 7:30
S 9:30 (30 mins)
E 10am
A 10:30
S 11:30 rocking until 12;15 (with a huge tantrum) then slept for 45 mins
E 1pm
A 1:30
S 3pm (1 hour)
E 4pm
A 4:15
S 4:45
A 5:30
E 7pm
7:30 bath then bed
He just woke after 40 mins and I've managed to get him back to sleep with the pick up put down routine till he calmed down enough to just have my hand on his tummy and HE WENT TO SLEEP, he actually went to sleep without me rocking him!!!!

So since posting the above about him going to sleep, hes been fussing since, he has gone back to sleep with just me soothing him in his cot, but he keeps jumping and waking himself up and crying again.

I've been sat by the cot for an hour, and I think, well I hope he is now properly asleep, but how do I know when hes in a deep sleep?

Scrap the above, as soon as I'd finished the sentence, he'd woken up again, so I've given him a bottle and he's gone back to sleep again.

This is what it is like every night, all night - please tell me what I am doing wrong, PLEASE HELP!!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Sorry, I haven't got time to post properly now and hopefully some more experienced eyes will see this soon but my first thought is that after all that illness he's probably overtired,  and the 20/30 minute naps and waking soon after bedtime probably indicate that too.  I'm honestly not sure whether it's best to tackle the rocking to sleep first or get his awake times right but if it were me I'd get him to sleep by any means possible for a day or two then try and work on him sleeping independently.  That's assuming I'm reading it right that you rock him to sleep for naps and at night time? Is there a way you know he'll sleep well and for a long time?  If so I'd do that in the short term until he catches up.

Maybe starting tomorrow,  try and get him to sleep a bit earlier (say,  15 minutes? ) for that first nap and see if a decent sleep then helps with the rest of the day?  For what it's worth,  my 5 month old has just come out of a spell of being overtired and I had to put him to bed 1hr 45 after last waking to let him catch up.  Not saying that'll be the magic number for you cos if you cut it too much it can stop him getting a decent sleep but reducing his A time a bit will hopefully help.

Let me know how you get on, and good luck for tonight

[kmalbin]

Hi lovelylily,

Yes you are right I have to rock him to sleep for every sleep.  The only way he'll sleep for longer periods is if I hold him for the whole nap which isn't ideal as my daughter is getting no time with me atm.  She starts school Sept and I wanted to get some mummy daughter time in before then but its just not happening atm.  She is brilliant and understands that her brother is poorly and needs my time, but I feel so bad for her.

From last night, he's been like this

E 12:30am pat shush until
S 1:45
E 4:30am pat shush until
S 5am then he woke at 6am and wouldnt go back to sleep so hubby took over
A 6am
E 7am
A 7:15am
S 7:45am (45 mins)
A 8:30
E 10am
A 10:15am
S 10:45am and hes still asleep now, Im going to go in and try to catch the 45 mins thing, see if I can get him back off.

I think your right hes definately overtired, but when he wakes at 45mins hes wide awake!

I also need to get him into a 4 hourly routine, how do I go about doing that? Do I wait till hes in a good 3 hourly EASY, or start now?

I'm so tired, lol!!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Aah see this is where my knowledge runs out....  I would say that a 45 minute nap was a bit UT and that going from a morning A time of 2 hrs 30 to 1hr 45 was too big a jump down for him but I'm battling UT/ OT loops myself so may well be wrong!  The advice is normally to change A times in 10-15 minute increments,  so if he was doing 2 hrs 30, aim for 2 hrs 15 instead and see how that goes. He probably needs to go to bed a bit earlier to get over the over tiredness, but needs to stay awake long enough to take a decent refreshing nap iykwim? It's such a difficult balance to strike though - as I said I'm struggling with it too!

Did he seem happy after his nap this morning or a bit grizzly or tired?

[weaver]

it does look amazing, and dare i say simple, once in place.

Hi Kirsty, yes, it is amazing and simple!

Lovelylilly has been giving you some excellent advice.  I'd say you're probably too tired to be reading books right now but when you get a bit of time, the Baby Whisperer Solves all Your Problems is a great read.  I constantly refer back to it.

You've got a couple of things going on here: a holding to sleep prop and short naps.  I'd say night sleep is being messed up by both of these.

You might like to have a look at the props board as you start thinking about how to deal with the holding to sleep issue. You can always start at thread there.   Here it is:
Props

One thing that might make you feel better is to know that 40 minute naps can be developmental at this age - I mean, at this age, some LOs just do 40 minute naps no matter what you do!  Frustrating!  Since it is developmental, it does resolve itself with time.  There are things you can do to help.  If he naps well in the buggy or sling, maybe you can transfer him into the buggy/sling and try to get him to do another nap straight away when he wakes at the 40 minute mark.  That way he'll get almost enough sleep and at the right time of day.  Worth trying, and you and DD could then get out for a walk.  If you can do that for one nap, and try to sit with him and help him back to sleep for another nap during the day, it will help a lot.

Those super short naps look like OT to me, so be conservative with his A times.  If he's OT, and he probably is from not sleeping too much at night (and you probably are too!), then he'll be doing lower A times than usual for his age. 
 
Have to go get baby LO2 up from her nap, but hope that helps for now!

[emmac1979]

Hi there

I'm still figuring this out big time for myself but I'd like to say that you're not the only one that gets woken hourly. My wee boy is 5.5 months and does the same. It's absolute torture so I know how you feel and you have my sympathies and hugs.

Like you, we also had no routine for naps and bedtime until a few weeks ago. The boy just wouldn't sleep. It's taken probably about 3-4 weeks to get to where we are now which is 2 naps a day. Sometimes we are lucky and get 2 hours, sometimes it's 20 minutes but we're getting there.

I'd say just to tackle one thing at a time e.g. morning nap and use the Getting Started EASY routine as a guideline then tweak as you go along.  My boy gets up at 7 (usually wakes anywhere between 6 and 7 but we get up at 7) back down for about 9 and he'll usually fall asleep 9.15 for however long. Then I just time having him back down 2 hours from when he got up and hope to catch his sleepy time.

It does get easier as time goes on but take it easy on him if he's been unwell Just know that you're not alone and you'll get there slowly but surely!

[kmalbin]

Thanks lovelylily,

Yes he was very bright when he woke from his morning nap but then was shattered after his 10am feed and I only managed to keep him up for 30 mins before he went to sleep.

When you say he needs to go to bed earlier, do you mean at night, or for each nap?  I'm finding it hard to grasp!

I've read the starting EASY at 4 months or older and think I will try that tomorrow, kind of makes sense to get him straight on the 4 hour rather than get him used to the 3 hour then change it again.

One question I do have is, do I not feed him throughout the night? It doesnt mention feeding him, just pick up put down until morning?

I hope we can both get through this with our LO's lol!

Hi Weaver,

I am definately going to get the book, I'm just checking the local library to see if they have any, if not will order online.

I have posted in the props board and hope to get some help soon on that, he also has a dummy (paci) which I have realised we are also using as a prop, so it seems i have a lot of work to do! But I am determined to do it :-)

It does make me feel a little better that its not just my DS that only sleep 40 mins, but I dont know how Im going to get around it as he doesnt sleep anywhere more than that other than in my arms or in the car driving. :-/

I think I will take this week to try and set this routine, then hopefully I have the rest of the holidays to spend with my DD during nap times etc knowing he's actually going to sleep when he's supposed to etc.

Hi emmac1979,

I'm sorry to hear you went through this too but I'm pleased to hear you have turned it around and that gives me hope lol!

Fingers crossed I can get this done, thank you so much for your posts and I look forward to any more help you can give.

I just thought I should post what it's been like the rest of today, to see if anyone can pick out where we going wrong lol.

Here is what I posted earlier.

E 12:30am pat shush until
S 1:45
E 4:30am pat shush until
S 5am then he woke at 6am and wouldnt go back to sleep so hubby took over
A 6am
E 7am
A 7:15am
S 7:45am (45 mins)
A 8:30
E 10am
A 10:15am
S 10:45am and hes still asleep now, Im going to go in and try to catch the 45 mins thing, see if I can get him back off.

So I ended up rocking him back to sleep as he was kicking right off and he fell asleep for another 15 mins and woke up bright as a button, I did catch him at 45 mins, and thought I'd got him back off, but as soon as I took my hand away he was awake again lol

A 11:45am
E 1pm
S 1:15 (in my arms, he was sooooo tired :-( (1 hour)
A 2:15
E 4pm
S 4:15 (30 mins)
A 4:45
E 7pm then bath then bed

So just to ask again, should I be feeding him in the night? or just pick up put down?

Also, are there any link to E.A.S.Y. by Weight” (page 29) and “Feeding 101” (page 95) charts?

And lastly, is there a reason I cant search for topics with the search bar at the top right of the page?  A search option would help me find info I need lol

Thanks again xxx

[weaver]

And lastly, is there a reason I cant search for topics with the search bar at the top right of the page?  A search option would help me find info I need lol

Just quickly, because it's bedtime here... yes, the search function only works for moderators!  Sorry!  Don't drive yourself crazy trying to use it.

As regards his routine, in my opinion, if he's OT, and he seems to be, I start where he is now, ie, feeding every 3 hours, and work the naps around that.  He needs to catch up on his sleep.  Once he's caught up, then shift him on to the four hours gradually.  In fact, it'll probably be an easy and natural change for him once he's well rested.

One question I do have is, do I not feed him throughout the night? It doesnt mention feeding him, just pick up put down until morning?

Is he exclusively BF?  Then you should allow for a dreamfeed (have you read about those?) around 10/10.30pm and up to two feeds overnight.  Feed him if he reasonably could be hungry.  If not, by all means try to put him down without feeding.  If he's upset, he may need to feed for comfort.

To be honest, Kirsty, I would start with daytime sleep and, with luck, the night time will follow.  If you try to change everything all at once, you risk a very sad and confused baby. 

Got to go!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Sorry, I meant put him down a bit earlier for each nap,  but only 10-15 minutes or so cos if you put him down too early he might not sleep for long enough to have a nice long sleep.  So today,  for example,  I would have aimed to have him asleep for 8 or 8.15 (up to 2 hrs 15 minutes after waking for the day) if he is usually awake for 2 hrs 30 before his first nap and see if that helps. If it doesn't,  then you can try having him asleep 2 hours after he wakes for the day. If he's having bad nights,  as Weaver says,  you might need to go nearer the 2 hour mark but see how he seems.

If he has a short nap then you need to have him asleep for his next nap maybe 15-30 minutes earlier than usual cos he'll be tired from the short nap.

 I don't want to confuse you with lots of different advice though.... It's hard enough being sleep deprived and even worse when you start driving yourself crazy trying to figure out how best to fix it!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Oh,  and just to add about the search,  if you put http://babywhispererforums.com at the front of your search in Google it'll return posts from this site.

[kmalbin]

Thanks weaver, i was so confused as to why the search wouldn't work! OK will start on the 3 hourly and go from there. Fingers crossed it works :-/

Thank you for the info for searching lovelylily.

I am finding it hard to grasp all the info, times etc. I'm going to go get the book somehow tomorrow so I have all info in one place, then I can just come for extra advice rather than expecting you all to basically read the book to me lol!

I'm gonna just give him what he wants tonight, so we both get a little rest, and start the day at 7am tomorrow on the 3 hour easy and see how it pans out.

I think I'll just concentrate on the routine atm and then work on removing props etc after (unless thats a really bad idea?)

Thank you all again, so so much xx

[weaver]

I'm gonna just give him what he wants tonight, so we both get a little rest, and start the day at 7am tomorrow on the 3 hour easy and see how it pans out.

This is exactly the right thing to do, take it easy on both of you.  Remember that you will need some downtime too!

[Buttonbobs]

Hi Kirsty, welcome to BWs, it really is a fab and amazing place and I hope you'll find lots of supportive parents here

I agree entirely with what weaver and lovelylily have advised. Just a couple of thoughts, your LO is probably Ot from all the illness and it may seem counterproductive but perhaps after a couple of days of holding to sleep you could start to put him on a more age appropriate EASY. He may need to eat every three hours now as he's catching up after illness, but if you stretch the feeds out a little he might take more at each feed and be able to last a little longer between feeds. Does he empty the bottle at each feed? If so, perhaps add another oz or two and after the first feed of the morning try to stretch him a little longer between feeds. He may take more at the second feed and last longer and then onwards for the next feed. Don't worry if this doesn't work as many breast fed babies don't manage a 4hr feeding gap until the LO is well established on solids and they manage well on an EASY pattern, it just might be a little more EAEASAE etc if you know what I mean. Just try not to feed to sleep as you'll be adding another prop to wean later on

As for sleep times, you will have an easier time breaking the rocking and holding to sleep prop if you he can nap after an age appropriate A time. Have you seen this?
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
So for a five month old you would want him to be going down for his first nap after 2hrs or 2hrs15 A time. This includes any feeding (ie from eyes open to eyes shut). It seems like you were getting an OT 30 min nap from a 2.5 hr A time first thing so why not shorten it a little while he catches up. So if you get a 7am WU, start to wind down at around 9am and aim to have him in his cot by 9.15am at the latest. Perhaps star by rocking first off and then before he falls asleep (so when he's drowsy) place him down in his cot and be prepared for him to cry at first. You can choose to try shh pat first, but if he doesn't respond to it you may need to try PUPD (an age appropriate version anyway). This will all be easier if he's just the right amount of tired to settle.

((Hugs))

[kmalbin]

Thanks weaver xx

Hi Buttonbobs,

I bottle feed so thinking he def should be going 4 hours between feeds so will try to stretch it, but for a couple of days you recommend 3 hourly and holding to sleep so he catches up?.  I have been trying the rocking and then putting down just before hes asleep then i hold him in his crib on his tummy and his head which he seems to go to sleep to, but even now he's in bed he's waking every 45 mins :-( but I am getting him back off with little fuss atm.

I read that I cant do PUPD if he has a dummy? I've posted in Props to get info on this just so confused as to what is right and wrong lol.

So if I get him down for a nap at 9:15am, he should technically sleep 2 hours?

If he wakes after 45 mins, I need to get him back to sleep, what if he wont? Just keep trying until 2 hours is up? or get him up and do more A time until its time to E?

I need to get this book lol xx

[Buttonbobs]

Hi hon, first of all sorry, I missed that he has a paci. You're right, PUPD doesn't work when an LO has a paci. I never found this a problem with my DD as she responded really well with shh pat and later on the gradual withdrawal method.

I think it might be good to hold him to help him catch up and then go for it in a couple of days, I wouldn't worry about ST until you're heading towards a better schedule.

If he wakes after 45 mins (which is a sign of an undertired nap) you won't have any luck resettling usually. If he wakes happy after 45 mins then I would get him up and instead of doing a full A for the next nap shorten it slightly. So if you're aiming for a 2hr 15 A after a good nap or good night, shorten slightly and aim to put him down after 1hr30 or 1hr45 after a shorter nap. You'll have to play around a bit to find the sweet spot for good naps, but in principle this should work.
If you get an OT nap (usually 30 mins and waking up grumpy) I would try to resettle. With my Dd I knew that if I tried for 20 mins and she didn't resettle then she was unlikely to do so. You'll soon get to know the signs of whether a resettle is likely or not.

Finally, if you get him down at around 2hr15mins A then he should have a good nap. A good nap at this age would be 1hr30 mins or longer. The thought behind this is that an Los sleep cycle is about 45 mins and two sleep cycles are restorative. Some LOs don't manage naps this length for a while (like my DD), and others are able to do longer naps. I personally would wake an LO who slept at nap time for longer than 3 hrs so that they get used to the difference between day and night.

The books are really helpful - hope you find a copy

[kmalbin]

Copy ordered :-)

Thanks again, one more thing though, lol. If he wakes early, say 6am and wont resettle, do I just move it all forward by an hour? ie, start E at 6am? xx

[Buttonbobs]

Yep

Treat it as a NW at first and try and resettle until your agreed WU time, but if as a one off he wakes early and you decide to start the day just shift everything earlier accordingly.

[kmalbin]

Hiya,

So I'd thought I'd give a quick update on last night and today so far.

I gave him his feed at 7pm, bathed him then got him ready for bed, tried to get him to sleep but he was crying as if he was still hungry, so gave him more bottle which he then projectiled across the room, composed himself and finished the bottle.  I took him into bed at 7:30 ish and he was already asleep by the time I put him down.

He woke at 8:15 but I managed to get him back off.

Then it went like this

E 1:30am fell asleep again at 2am
E 4:30 fell asleep again by 5am
WU 7am
tried to give him his bottle but he didnt want it until 7:45am so did A until then and after until
S 9:15 - starting winding down at 9am (2 hours but woke after 45 mins, rocked for 30 mins then back to sleep)
E 11:15am
A 11:30am
S 1:15pm started winding down at 1pm (30 mins then rocked for 15 mins and slept another 15 mins)
A 2:15pm
E 3pm

So I've got him going 4 hours (roughly) between feeds.  But I'm wondering how I go on from here as he only had 1 hour nap at 1:15pm?

Do I carry the day on as normal, or adjust times so he's not overtired for bed?

Help lol xx

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I would shorten his next A time slightly just to keep on top of things seeing as he didn't have a huge nap at 1. Sounds like you're having some success in lengthening naps though,  well done!  Maybe start wind down 15/20 minutes earlier for his next nap?

[Buttonbobs]

Looks good so far, and like lovelylily says just shorten an A time to compensate for the shorter nap. It sounds like that first nap was a UT one so you did really well to resettle. I could never resettle a Ut nap

[kmalbin]

Thank you for the advice :-)

When you shorten an A time to compensate for previous short nap, are they in theory meant to sleep longer for the next nap?

I put him down for a nap at 4:45pm but he woke at 5:15 so am I right in guessing this was an UT nap?

It's very hard to get the timings lol, I cant wait for my book to arrive.

Do you think I should extend his A time tomorrow to 2 hours 30 mins, so start winding down at 9:15 and aim for sleep at 9:30am and go from there? Then he only has a 1.5 hour S window, is that right?

xx

[Buttonbobs]

A 30 minute nap can be a sign of an OT nap. How was his mood when he woke? If he was unhappy then he was most probably Ot. We're you able to resettle him at all?

It might be that he needs a slightly shorter A time after a short nap while he catches up. You'll need to experiment with this to find his good A following a short nap.

I might well extend that first A a little tomorrow, perhaps by 10-15mins, then let him sleep as long as he will and hopefully it will be more than 1.5hrs, but it may not work straight away so stick with that new A time for a few days before changing anything else. It's not a strictly timed schedule as such but more a flexible routine so you'll still need to follow his signs. Good luck x

[kmalbin]

Hiya,

So last night went TERRIBLY! DS was up every hour last night and that was after taking an hour to settle him in the first place!  He has today woken at 6:30 (after getting back to sleep at 5:30 lol) and refused to go back sleep, so I waited until 7am to feed him and he's only had 1.5oz :-( he's also woken with very red, hot cheeks, is this normal teething symptoms?  Is this yet another battle for me to get some decent sleep? 

Im not sure what to do today, as he woke earlier and had a bad night.

I put him down at 8:15 will see how he goes.

Buttonbobs, he woke up crying but was happy as soon as I went in, so not sure what this was??

Im hoping my book comes today x

[kmalbin]

So monkey woke up after 35 mins, tried for 25 mins to get him back down, he kept dozing off in my arms but as soon as i put him down, ping! eyes wide open smiling at me. I'm assuming this is an OT nap?

Now I am completely lost with what to do :-(

 

[Buttonbobs]

DS was up every hour last night and that was after taking an hour to settle him in the first place

What did your day look like yesterday in EASY format sweetie? what time did you try to put him down for sleep. It sounds like he was either UT initially when you put him to bed or he was already OT and I can't really tell without looking at the timings. When you were trying to get him to settle, how was his mood?

Sometimes even after a bad night, LOs can manage a reasonable A time first thing. It might be that from 6.30am to 8.15am wasn't really long enough. So if he woke at 6.30 but you didn't get him up and going properly until 7ish then perhaps a nap nearer 9 might have got better results.

Sorry to hear he seems a bit out of sorts this morning. Did he have a fever at all? It could be early signs of teething, unless there are signs anything else is wrong. I would say try not to worry about it impacting on sleep yet, it might just make him a bit dribbly and sometimes a little grumpy. Once we've got your EAS a bit more on track then we'll be able to tell more easily if teething is impacting on anything.

((Hugs))

[kmalbin]

Hiya,

So my day yesterday went like this

WU 7am
tried to give him his bottle but he didnt want it until 7:45am so did A until then and after until
S 9:15 - starting winding down at 9am (2 hours but woke after 45 mins, rocked for 30 mins then back to sleep)
E 11:15am
A 11:30am
S 1:15pm started winding down at 1pm (30 mins then rocked for 15 mins and slept another 15 mins)
A 2:15pm
E 3pm
A 3:15pm
S 4:45pm (30 mins)
A 5:15pm
E 7pm then bath and bed for 7:30pm but he didnt settle until 8:30pm with lots of screaming etc
He then woke at 9pm and I got him back to sleep pretty quick, then slept till 10:30 (was planning on giving him a dreamfeed at 11pm but fed him at 10:30 instead)

Then it was pretty much hourly after that and took him quite a while to settle in between.

When I tried to put him to bed he was showing signs of being tired, but when it came to going to bed he just screamed and arched his back and pulled my hair and pretty much went mad! I ended up putting him in his cot like this and tried shush pat etc but it didnt help. He finally got himself in such a state that when I gave him his dummy again he fell asleep.

today has been

WU 6:30am + A
E 7am
A 7:15
S 8:15 (35 mins) tried for 25 mins to get him back down, he kept dozing off in my arms but as soon as i put him down, ping! eyes wide open smiling at me.
A 9:15am
S 10am as shattered (30 mins)
A 10:30
E 11am
11:45 (45 mins now asleep on me as wouldnt settle in cot :-(

We don't have a fever so hopefully not another illness, haven't been anywhere to catch anything as been housebound coz of the pox lol!

I'm lost with all of it i just don't understand it properly 

xx

[kmalbin]

DS is still asleeo (on me) he started crying at 1:10 and 1:30 didnt open his eyes or anything, and i gave dummy and he stopped.

Not sure if i should be waking him or if he needs this sleep.

where is the postman lolol!!

[kmalbin]

Aha!!

Now I know why he slept so long! He now has a low fever :-( could this still be teething? He always sleeps with a temp

[Buttonbobs]

Ok, so honey if he is teething it will upset things a little but you can rule it out if you want to by medicating and seeing if this makes a difference to his sleep behaviour. Poor little mite xx

Having said that I still think that first nap was a little too early so you had an UT nap which you couldn't resettle because he wasn't quite tired enough to go back down. But then he was a little OT for the second nap following the first short nap and that second A was obviously not quite shortened enough for him. Then after two short naps he was probably really OT and crashed a bit and as you we're holding him stayed asleep.

If you can I really would hold out that first A a little longer, ideally more than two hours.

[kmalbin]

Ok, gonna have to start again tomorrow.  It's all gone to pot today, hes come out in a rash on his cheeks now too, very grumpy and very tired.  :-(

So gonna get him down when I can and hopefully both of us will get some rest to start fresh in the morning.

I see what you mean about his first A time being too short, so will try lengthen and see how he goes.

Thank you for your help x

[weaver]

  It's all gone to pot today, hes come out in a rash on his cheeks now too, very grumpy and very tired.  :-(

Oh poor baby.  There's no point in sleep-training when he's ill, it won't work!  So take a break for both of you and hopefully he'll be better soon. 

[kmalbin]

Hiya, thank you.

So DS had a bad night and I ended up on the sofa with him again :-/

But today, I have had a bit of a breakthrough with shush pat and getting him to sleep in his cot 

I'm still unsure of where I am going wrong with his naps and why they are so short and how to extend them tho.

Today was like this:

WU 7am
E 8am (didnt want feed at 7am as had a feed at 5:30am)
A 8:15am (started showing tired signs at 8:45am, tried to put down but wouldn't go)
S 9:25am (10 mins shush pat) WU 10:15am shush pat until 10:45am but wouldnt go back to sleep
A 10:45am
E 11am
A 11:15am
S 12:20pm (very grumpy, fell asleep in cot straight away) WU 12:50pm shush pat 20 mins then slept for another 10 mins
A 1:30pm
E 3pm fell asleep, put him in cot then he woke up, shush pat until 3:15, slept until 3:45 very grumpy so rocked back to sleep for 10 mins
A 4:40pm
E 6:30pm then bath and bed by 7pm (16 mins of shush pat)

He woke at 7:45 and 8:15

Can you see what's going on and how I can rectify?

[Buttonbobs]

Is he still poorly honey? If so, there's not a huge amount you can do.

If he's well, you'll need to stick to the new A times for at least three days to see a difference, LOs usually need that consistency for things to settle. But it does sound like he wasn't quite right last night so I would expect things to have been a bit unsettled today.

((Hugs))

[kmalbin]

Hi Buttonbobs,

I dont think he's poorly, no temp anymore, just a bit of a stuffy nose.

Last night was much better, he only woke 4 times which is amazing for him, he also settled himself a couple times :-)

So his first A time is around 2 hrs 25 mins, so stick to that again today right?  Then keep him in bed until his next E time, even if its only shush patting?

Do I then need to keep him up for the same amount of A time again?  Even if he's knackered?

My book still hasn't arrived, but I read the interview with Tracy on here last night, and it seems I need to get more calories into him during the day - but how, lol?

Thank you all for taking time to help me x

[Buttonbobs]

If you get a short nap for the first nap, I probably wouldn't keep trying to settle for the whole time until the next E. I worked out with my Dd that if she didn't resettle within 15/20 mins she wasn't going to, I have seen other people try for 30mins or 45, but you'll soon get to know if it seems likely or not.

If you've had a short nap you can get him up and have A time until the next E. you'll need to shorten the A time before the next nap by half an hour or so (keep an eye on his cues) going for 2hrs approx from when you get him up. The shorter A is to take account of the fact that he'll be more tired after that shorter first nap. You may have to tweak a little to find your Los perfect A following a short nap as all LOs are different

What is it that you've read that makes you think he needs more calories in the day hon?

[kmalbin]

Hi Buttonbobs,

It was a special sleep interview with tracy hogg, here's the bit I got it from, I may be taking it in completely the wrong context tho!

Q:  So if night wakings are starting again, and it’s clearly hunger, you would feed him that night, but the very next day start trying to increase the calories?

T:  Yes, get the extra calories in wherever you can.  Don’t even think about the clock.  So if they get up at 7 and feed, you give them a couple more ounces at, say, 9.   Whatever you fed them in the night you’ve got to make up the next day – let’s say he woke up at 2am and gulped down 8 ounces.  Then you’ve got to get 8 extra ounces in the next day.  It doesn’t mean in one bottle or feed.  It may mean you’ve got to add an ounce to every bottle/feed they’re having in the day.  Say they’re having 4 feeds/bottles, that’s an extra 4 ounces.  Then, say after an hour that they’ve fed, you give them an ounce.  And then another hour later, you give them another ounce.  And then it’s not until about the third day that they’ll start to adjust during the day so they can take all the extra they need at regular feed times.  But if they’ve been sleeping through the night, and suddenly they start waking, I could put money on it that it’s hunger, and it’s calories.

[/b]

I understand what you mean now about letting him get up if he doesn't settle after 15/20 mins from a short nap, and shortening the next A time, so thank you for clarifying that part, but what if he again has a short nap and wont resettle?  I find I'm getting to like 3pm, he's had 2 short naps and is getting tired by 4:30?  How far forward should I bring bedtime etc?

Sorry for all the questions!

On a good note though, we've had an okish day today, and DS hasn't woken at all since he went to bed at 7:15 eeeeeeek 

I know the routine is still nowhere near where it needs to be, can you see any patterns or where I need to change?

WU and E 7am 5oz
A 7:15am
S 8:53am (fell asleep on playmat whilst I was drying my hair) (I know this was far too short an A time) (40 mins ish)
A 10am
E 11am 7oz
A 11:15am
E 12:15pm 1oz
S 12:25pm (struggled to keep him awake for 10 mins after having his bottle) (45 mins) shush pat for 5 mins
A 1:50pm
E 2:50pm 8oz
A 3pm
S 4:30pm (30 mins)
A 5pm
E 5:30pm 4.5oz
A 5:45pm
E 7pm 3.5oz tried to put to bed (didn't do bath etc as he was obviously shattered) kicked right off
E 7:10pm 3oz
wind down then bed
asleep by 7:20

and still STILL sleep :-)

[Buttonbobs]

Yes if you get a shorter second nap too you'll need to slightly shorten the third A time as well. If you find this is not helping at all it may be that your LO is able to manage a full A time after a short nap (but you'd need to see a pattern of this for a while before concluding this is the case as otherwise your LO may end up very OT).

Just to clarify, A time is from eyes open to eyes closed, so including E times.

If you think your DS is waking hungry at night some of these feeds will be normal and expected at his age. Many LOs retain either a DF or NF until at least 8 or 9 months or longer if solids are not fully established by that point. However, I would not offer milk at night unless our DS has gone longer than he would manage in the daytime. So, if he goes four hours between feeds inthe day then he should be able to manage at least this long at night if that makes sense.

It is difficult for me to spot a pattern after just one day of your EASY pattern, but I have my fingers crossed for your night and please let me know how tomorrow goes.

[kmalbin]

Thank you, makes sense!

We had a pretty good night, DS woke at 10:30pm where I gave him a feed (dreamfeed was due at 11pm) so thinking maybe bring the dreamfeed forward so he doesn't wake for it?

He settled himself in his cot after this (no shush-pat needed)

He woke at 4:30 and I thought he would probably be wanting a feed, but I gave his dummy and he settled himself again until 5:30 when he woke wanting a feed.

He's been a happy boy this morning, started showing tired signs at 9;15am, so started our wind down, in cot by 9:20am and asleep, all by himself within minutes!

I'm so pleased with how this is all going, it's been a week and he's already learned to self soothe :-)

Just need to get the right A times for his naps etc and we'll be well away I think!

Thank you so much for all your advice, will let you know how today goes x

[Buttonbobs]

What a good update, glad to hear things are improving. Keep us posted x

[kmalbin]

Hi,

So i thought I'd pop in with an update.  We have completely cut out rocking to sleep and DS now self soothes for all naps and NW (with dummy)

I have managed to get naps to 1hr (sometimes) but he is still waking usually 45 mins for every nap and is still waking 3 or 4 times in the night, he is also getting harder to resettle when he wakes early for naps, although NW are pretty easy to get back to sleep.

I am still struggling with a good A time for him, it seems to differ daily, and I am still struggling with naps and how to plan the rest of the day, especially tea time as I am trying to do dinner, sort DD and DS is grumpy as he's not slept well.

Yesterday was an ok day and looked like this

WU 6:40 (stayed in cot until 7am)
E 7am
A 7:30
S 8:55 (5 min wind down) wu after 30 mins shush pat 25 mins then back to sleep
E 11am
A 11:30
S 1pm (1hr)
A 2pm
E 3pm
A 3:30
S 4pm (30 mins)
E (starting solids, BLW few bits of toast)
A bath 5:45 then massage
E 6:30
S 6:45
DF 11pm but wasnt really interested
WU 1am 2 or 3 times
E 2:30am then slept until 5:30am gave dummy and WU 6:45 this morning

then today has been

WU 6:45 stayed in cot until 7am
E 7am
A 7:30
S 8:45 (10 mins to settle) (30 mins left to see if he'd resettle for 20 mins, then tried shush pat for 15 mins)
A 10am
E 11am
S 12pm (woke at 1:05 gave dummy and straight back sleep)

So I'm just wondering if you can see anywhere that I'm going wrong and if there are any other ways I can get him to nap longer, so he's not so grumpy in the evenings before bed.

Thanks in advance and I hope everyone is ok x

[kmalbin]

Also....

one of my main problems has just happened.

DS has woken up again 1:10pm so 1hr 10 mins nap

How do I go about the rest of the day, he's meant to E at 3pm, but I can guarantee he's going to be tired then a he's had 2 short naps today.  Do I try to get him to have another decent nap after that E (leaving 10 mins after E) or do I just bring the CN forward (which will be waaaaaay early)

Help lol x

[kmalbin]

Just thought I'd finish todays EASY (which has actually been very hard lol)  This happens quite regularly and I don't know if I'm dealing with it correctly or if I'm going wrong somewhere which is why it keeps happening?  I have read the book but cant find anywhere that explains what to do if short naps keep happening in the day :-(

WU 6:45 stayed in cot until 7am
E 7am
A 7:30
S 8:45 (10 mins to settle, asleep by 8:55) (30 mins left to see if he'd resettle for 20 mins, then tried shush pat for 15 mins)
A 10am
E 11am
S 12pm (woke at 1:05 gave dummy and straight back sleep, wu again at 1:10pm and wouldn't go back to sleep)
A 1:10pm
S 2pm (30 mins, would not settle again)
A 2:30
E 3pm
A 3:30
S 4pm (40 mins) was a struggle to get him down for this one but he was soooooo tired and grumpy from when he woke at 2:30
A 4:40
E 6pm
BT 6:30 (15 mins to settle)

Please, what am I doing wrong? x

[weaver]

I'm wondering if his A time is a too short for him?  It looks to me like he's not really tired enough to do a long nap, but then because he's not doing a long nap, he's getting overtired at the end of the day. 

On average, 5 month olds (though he's a nearer to 5.5 or even 6 by now, is he?) would be doing 2-2.5 hours, and late 5 months/6 month olds could be doing up to 3 hours.  So I'd bump his A times, gently, give him an extra 15 minutes for each A time and see how that helps.  If, after 3 days, you think maybe he could do more, give him another 15 minutes.  Take it slowly and let him adjust to the change.  No big jumps!  Hopefully that'll help him.

And you mentioned that tea time is a real pain... I used to always do LO2's catnaps either in a sling or in the buggy. I would try to get most of tea organised before CN time and get everyone out the door for 40 minutes or so, or just cook with her on my front!  Saved me some hassle!

[Buttonbobs]

I agree honey, a few posts back we were talking about trying for an A time of 2.5hrs. I know that your DS seems OT, which he likely is, but the cause of the OT is being UT to get a proper restorative nap anywhere in the day. This age can be tricky with short naps anyway, some Los don't manage longer naps until they're older, but as your LO has managed some longer naps I wouldn't think this is the cause.

Can you lengthen that first A time to 2.5hrs and hold it consistently there for a few days and see what happens. You might have to resettle the nap for the first day or so as he gets used to the longer time. If this works, then work on lengthening the second A time and second nap.

((Hugs)£

[kmalbin]

Hiya,

Sorry, I am soooooo sleep deprived atm and i can feel myself getting angry with the kids now, and i don't like it 

DS would not sleep last night, i gave him a DF at 10:30 which he finished, then he kept waking every hour until a fed him again at 3am and then he slept until 5:45 when he decided it was time to get up :-(

For some reason he was not tired this morning so his A time was exactly 2.5 hrs, and he napped for an hour so going to do 2.5 for next A time too.

I think it is the dummy that is causing problems, he loses it and cant find it and that is why he's waking (i think) what is the best way to get rid of this? do i do it cold turkey or gradually? also, shh pat isnt working that well anymore.

he was 6 months yesterday.

i dont have a sling or anything and my DH doesn't get back till 6 but my DD needs tea earlier than that as she starts school next week, eek!

could i just rock him to sleep in the pushchair indoors or something like that? it def wont mess with self soothing?

thank u so much 4 putting up with me x