PLEASE HELP! 5 month old no routine

[kmalbin]

DS is still asleeo (on me) he started crying at 1:10 and 1:30 didnt open his eyes or anything, and i gave dummy and he stopped.

Not sure if i should be waking him or if he needs this sleep.

where is the postman lolol!!

[kmalbin]

Aha!!

Now I know why he slept so long! He now has a low fever :-( could this still be teething? He always sleeps with a temp

[Buttonbobs]

Ok, so honey if he is teething it will upset things a little but you can rule it out if you want to by medicating and seeing if this makes a difference to his sleep behaviour. Poor little mite xx

Having said that I still think that first nap was a little too early so you had an UT nap which you couldn't resettle because he wasn't quite tired enough to go back down. But then he was a little OT for the second nap following the first short nap and that second A was obviously not quite shortened enough for him. Then after two short naps he was probably really OT and crashed a bit and as you we're holding him stayed asleep.

If you can I really would hold out that first A a little longer, ideally more than two hours.

[kmalbin]

Ok, gonna have to start again tomorrow.  It's all gone to pot today, hes come out in a rash on his cheeks now too, very grumpy and very tired.  :-(

So gonna get him down when I can and hopefully both of us will get some rest to start fresh in the morning.

I see what you mean about his first A time being too short, so will try lengthen and see how he goes.

Thank you for your help x

[weaver]

  It's all gone to pot today, hes come out in a rash on his cheeks now too, very grumpy and very tired.  :-(

Oh poor baby.  There's no point in sleep-training when he's ill, it won't work!  So take a break for both of you and hopefully he'll be better soon. 

[kmalbin]

Hiya, thank you.

So DS had a bad night and I ended up on the sofa with him again :-/

But today, I have had a bit of a breakthrough with shush pat and getting him to sleep in his cot 

I'm still unsure of where I am going wrong with his naps and why they are so short and how to extend them tho.

Today was like this:

WU 7am
E 8am (didnt want feed at 7am as had a feed at 5:30am)
A 8:15am (started showing tired signs at 8:45am, tried to put down but wouldn't go)
S 9:25am (10 mins shush pat) WU 10:15am shush pat until 10:45am but wouldnt go back to sleep
A 10:45am
E 11am
A 11:15am
S 12:20pm (very grumpy, fell asleep in cot straight away) WU 12:50pm shush pat 20 mins then slept for another 10 mins
A 1:30pm
E 3pm fell asleep, put him in cot then he woke up, shush pat until 3:15, slept until 3:45 very grumpy so rocked back to sleep for 10 mins
A 4:40pm
E 6:30pm then bath and bed by 7pm (16 mins of shush pat)

He woke at 7:45 and 8:15

Can you see what's going on and how I can rectify?

[Buttonbobs]

Is he still poorly honey? If so, there's not a huge amount you can do.

If he's well, you'll need to stick to the new A times for at least three days to see a difference, LOs usually need that consistency for things to settle. But it does sound like he wasn't quite right last night so I would expect things to have been a bit unsettled today.

((Hugs))

[kmalbin]

Hi Buttonbobs,

I dont think he's poorly, no temp anymore, just a bit of a stuffy nose.

Last night was much better, he only woke 4 times which is amazing for him, he also settled himself a couple times :-)

So his first A time is around 2 hrs 25 mins, so stick to that again today right?  Then keep him in bed until his next E time, even if its only shush patting?

Do I then need to keep him up for the same amount of A time again?  Even if he's knackered?

My book still hasn't arrived, but I read the interview with Tracy on here last night, and it seems I need to get more calories into him during the day - but how, lol?

Thank you all for taking time to help me x

[Buttonbobs]

If you get a short nap for the first nap, I probably wouldn't keep trying to settle for the whole time until the next E. I worked out with my Dd that if she didn't resettle within 15/20 mins she wasn't going to, I have seen other people try for 30mins or 45, but you'll soon get to know if it seems likely or not.

If you've had a short nap you can get him up and have A time until the next E. you'll need to shorten the A time before the next nap by half an hour or so (keep an eye on his cues) going for 2hrs approx from when you get him up. The shorter A is to take account of the fact that he'll be more tired after that shorter first nap. You may have to tweak a little to find your Los perfect A following a short nap as all LOs are different

What is it that you've read that makes you think he needs more calories in the day hon?

[kmalbin]

Hi Buttonbobs,

It was a special sleep interview with tracy hogg, here's the bit I got it from, I may be taking it in completely the wrong context tho!

Q:  So if night wakings are starting again, and it’s clearly hunger, you would feed him that night, but the very next day start trying to increase the calories?

T:  Yes, get the extra calories in wherever you can.  Don’t even think about the clock.  So if they get up at 7 and feed, you give them a couple more ounces at, say, 9.   Whatever you fed them in the night you’ve got to make up the next day – let’s say he woke up at 2am and gulped down 8 ounces.  Then you’ve got to get 8 extra ounces in the next day.  It doesn’t mean in one bottle or feed.  It may mean you’ve got to add an ounce to every bottle/feed they’re having in the day.  Say they’re having 4 feeds/bottles, that’s an extra 4 ounces.  Then, say after an hour that they’ve fed, you give them an ounce.  And then another hour later, you give them another ounce.  And then it’s not until about the third day that they’ll start to adjust during the day so they can take all the extra they need at regular feed times.  But if they’ve been sleeping through the night, and suddenly they start waking, I could put money on it that it’s hunger, and it’s calories.

[/b]

I understand what you mean now about letting him get up if he doesn't settle after 15/20 mins from a short nap, and shortening the next A time, so thank you for clarifying that part, but what if he again has a short nap and wont resettle?  I find I'm getting to like 3pm, he's had 2 short naps and is getting tired by 4:30?  How far forward should I bring bedtime etc?

Sorry for all the questions!

On a good note though, we've had an okish day today, and DS hasn't woken at all since he went to bed at 7:15 eeeeeeek 

I know the routine is still nowhere near where it needs to be, can you see any patterns or where I need to change?

WU and E 7am 5oz
A 7:15am
S 8:53am (fell asleep on playmat whilst I was drying my hair) (I know this was far too short an A time) (40 mins ish)
A 10am
E 11am 7oz
A 11:15am
E 12:15pm 1oz
S 12:25pm (struggled to keep him awake for 10 mins after having his bottle) (45 mins) shush pat for 5 mins
A 1:50pm
E 2:50pm 8oz
A 3pm
S 4:30pm (30 mins)
A 5pm
E 5:30pm 4.5oz
A 5:45pm
E 7pm 3.5oz tried to put to bed (didn't do bath etc as he was obviously shattered) kicked right off
E 7:10pm 3oz
wind down then bed
asleep by 7:20

and still STILL sleep :-)

[Buttonbobs]

Yes if you get a shorter second nap too you'll need to slightly shorten the third A time as well. If you find this is not helping at all it may be that your LO is able to manage a full A time after a short nap (but you'd need to see a pattern of this for a while before concluding this is the case as otherwise your LO may end up very OT).

Just to clarify, A time is from eyes open to eyes closed, so including E times.

If you think your DS is waking hungry at night some of these feeds will be normal and expected at his age. Many LOs retain either a DF or NF until at least 8 or 9 months or longer if solids are not fully established by that point. However, I would not offer milk at night unless our DS has gone longer than he would manage in the daytime. So, if he goes four hours between feeds inthe day then he should be able to manage at least this long at night if that makes sense.

It is difficult for me to spot a pattern after just one day of your EASY pattern, but I have my fingers crossed for your night and please let me know how tomorrow goes.

[kmalbin]

Thank you, makes sense!

We had a pretty good night, DS woke at 10:30pm where I gave him a feed (dreamfeed was due at 11pm) so thinking maybe bring the dreamfeed forward so he doesn't wake for it?

He settled himself in his cot after this (no shush-pat needed)

He woke at 4:30 and I thought he would probably be wanting a feed, but I gave his dummy and he settled himself again until 5:30 when he woke wanting a feed.

He's been a happy boy this morning, started showing tired signs at 9;15am, so started our wind down, in cot by 9:20am and asleep, all by himself within minutes!

I'm so pleased with how this is all going, it's been a week and he's already learned to self soothe :-)

Just need to get the right A times for his naps etc and we'll be well away I think!

Thank you so much for all your advice, will let you know how today goes x

[Buttonbobs]

What a good update, glad to hear things are improving. Keep us posted x

[kmalbin]

Hi,

So i thought I'd pop in with an update.  We have completely cut out rocking to sleep and DS now self soothes for all naps and NW (with dummy)

I have managed to get naps to 1hr (sometimes) but he is still waking usually 45 mins for every nap and is still waking 3 or 4 times in the night, he is also getting harder to resettle when he wakes early for naps, although NW are pretty easy to get back to sleep.

I am still struggling with a good A time for him, it seems to differ daily, and I am still struggling with naps and how to plan the rest of the day, especially tea time as I am trying to do dinner, sort DD and DS is grumpy as he's not slept well.

Yesterday was an ok day and looked like this

WU 6:40 (stayed in cot until 7am)
E 7am
A 7:30
S 8:55 (5 min wind down) wu after 30 mins shush pat 25 mins then back to sleep
E 11am
A 11:30
S 1pm (1hr)
A 2pm
E 3pm
A 3:30
S 4pm (30 mins)
E (starting solids, BLW few bits of toast)
A bath 5:45 then massage
E 6:30
S 6:45
DF 11pm but wasnt really interested
WU 1am 2 or 3 times
E 2:30am then slept until 5:30am gave dummy and WU 6:45 this morning

then today has been

WU 6:45 stayed in cot until 7am
E 7am
A 7:30
S 8:45 (10 mins to settle) (30 mins left to see if he'd resettle for 20 mins, then tried shush pat for 15 mins)
A 10am
E 11am
S 12pm (woke at 1:05 gave dummy and straight back sleep)

So I'm just wondering if you can see anywhere that I'm going wrong and if there are any other ways I can get him to nap longer, so he's not so grumpy in the evenings before bed.

Thanks in advance and I hope everyone is ok x

[kmalbin]

Also....

one of my main problems has just happened.

DS has woken up again 1:10pm so 1hr 10 mins nap

How do I go about the rest of the day, he's meant to E at 3pm, but I can guarantee he's going to be tired then a he's had 2 short naps today.  Do I try to get him to have another decent nap after that E (leaving 10 mins after E) or do I just bring the CN forward (which will be waaaaaay early)

Help lol x