BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: jcsmom on November 18, 2012, 16:09:50 pm
-
I have a thread open in the EASY forum so feel free to lock it. I need some new eyes. I am having an impossible time getting my 8 week old on EASY. She has EW's from 4-5 after which she will only sleep for 40 minute increments. Today she has been up since 4:40. There is no EASY to post since everyday is so different. Yesterday looked like this:
Wake 6am-dozed til 7 nursing so was unsure of A.
S: 7:40-9:40
S: 10:45-11:35
S: 12:45-2:45
S: 4-6 ( we woke her)
S:7 pm but settled at 7:15
Wake 9:30 (usually) sleeps 5 -6 hours then 3-4 hours then 40 minutes
Wake 1:30
Wake 3:45
Wake 4:40
Could not get her back to sleep. Prior to this we were doing a 45 min A and fighting bedtime so we upped it to 60 and now it's 1:15. Is her too high A causing the EW, too much day sleep as the EASY mod suggested?
She sleeps all naps in the swing as she will not sleep elsewhere. I mean nowhere else, not car, sling, stroller. She goes down for the night in her crib and after all NW's. I am baffled and exhausted. She only eats at the first 2 NW's. She eats every 3 hours in the day. She's a big baby. 12 lbs. I really need some support here.
-
Ok, so I have it clear, she feeds at 6/6:30 before bed, then again at 9:30 and 1:30 but not after that til WU at 6am? Three NF's is very normal at this age - pretty much 3hrly around the clock, so perhaps you issue with her waking every 40-60min in the early AM is hunger - have you tried adding in another feed to rule this out?
Another possibility if you're breastfeeding is that she's taking in some air at that 1:30 feed if you're fuller than for other feeds (to cope with the additional milk flow) and then waking with gas pain.
Looks like she needs about 1hr15 A time - the short nap was after 1hr5 and the rest of the naps were longer. I'd have probably done BT a little later off the back of a 2hr nap, just to separate night sleep from day sleep.
I don't know that you're having too much day sleep overall, but I do think that if you have that long nap in the PM regularly, you may be seeing her shifting her day, like a 4-4 day rather than 7-7 which is more like what you want, I presume. Are you cluster feeding her in the afternoon? What other signals are you giving her that its time for a long stretch of sleep rather than a nap?
-
I feed her pretty much everytime she wakes. Her EW's have been going on for ages so in the EASy forum we've been toying with the idea of too much daysleep. The last 2 days she has had late 2-2.5 hour naps and her days seem to have gone from 4-4 and last night 3-3. She slept from 3:05-5:35 last night and we woke her, gave her a bath and I nursed her but she was so tired and wanted to go staight back. Then she was up at 11 and at 3 I heard her chatting and she cried for me at 3:53.That would have been a great night if it were 7-7 lol! It took over an hour to get her back then she slept an hour then snoozed while nursing. How should I handle late naps like that. It seems she does 3 long(2-2.5) 1 short nap. Her day sleep is still over 6 hour unless you include what she does after her EW and then it's over 7 you know? My husband seems to think her days run from 4-4. He's always thought that.
-
My husband seems to think her days run from 4-4. He's always thought that.
I agree with him.
To shift the day, I think you need to keep her sleeping or at least dozing til 6 or 7 if you can, then push her A time to 1hr15 for each A (particularly the second one which seems to be the one that's a little shorter and resulting in a short nap) and work on getting your three long naps at the front end of the day and shifting the catnap to the end of the day - its purpose is really to tide her over to BT and get your day to be a reasonable length. If she sleep a long nap for the last one of the day, cap it at 45min if she's had three long naps (1.5hr+) or 1.5hr if she's thrown a catnap in somewhere during the day. Keep her up for 1hr15 before bed. Add something to your BT routine that signals that THAT is her cue to sleep for the night.
Are you BFing? If so, are you engorged before that 1:30am feed? If so, she could be waking with gas and you're then perpetuating that cycle by feeding again so soon. I don't mean you shouldn't feed her if she's hungry, but she is unlikely to be hungry an hour after she last ate.
-
She was going 7-12 the 12:45-4ish before this week. Now the erratic wakings since she started this long nap at the end of the day thing. We've upped her A and today she still had a 40 minute AM nap, 2.5 hours which I woke her from, then 55 mins then her catnap was 1.5 hour which I had to cap. Before this she was doing 3 long and one short. I am exhausted!
-
I only feed her when she wakes if it's been 2 hours. When she was waking in the 4-5 o'clock hour I would feed her. She was getting 2 night feeds. After the 5 o'clock feed she was awake but would settle and sleep 40 mins. Then I could usually get another 40 mins to bring us to 7. I find the first A of the day hard because sometimes she just snoozes from when she wakes from her 40 mins or sometimes she sleeps the full 40 again. Confusing isn't it? Her nights were generally 7-12 and then to 4ish hour. Now since these late naps it's gone all wonky again with the wakings. Confusing isn't it? But she has been awake in the 5 o'clock hour since about week 3.
-
So I am noticing since we upped her A, she is waking earlier for a feed, her last naps is really long and the middle of the night waking have gotten worse. Now I am inclined to think she is majorly OT.
Prior to this she slept 7-12 or 1 and then til 4ish. Now she is waking at 11 and the last few nights have still had other wakings.
-
So I am noticing since we upped her A, she is waking earlier for a feed,
After naps? How long are the naps? Do you think you may have a growth spurt happening?
-
Yesterday she slept 40 mins in the AM then 2.5 hours where we woke her, then an hour the 1.5 hours where we woke her at 5:35. She was up til 6:50pm then up again at 11pm, 12:30, 1:30, 3:30, 4:30. After 4:30 she would not go back down. I finally put her in her swing at 5:45 and she slept til 7. I am not sure she's having a growth spurt because she didn't want to eat only at 11:30 and 3:30. The other times she was just wide awake. She's feeding as normal in the day too. I am so confused. So basically she was up from 11 with 1.5 hours as her longest stretch after. All other stretches were 40 mins.
-
There's no gas or pain issues? There has to be something causing such frequent waking. My first guess would be gas - that she's taking in some air when she's having that feed (if she is waking at 11 and she's not feeding til 11:30 - what's going on in that 30min?) and then waking in discomfort.
-
I always burp her then and she has a good one. These frequent waking started after we upped her A time to 1:15. And since she started having that late nap. She has been doing that late nap for a few days now. We give her normal A after. Could that kind of frequent waking be from a build up of OT? Her naps have been good almost too good still.
Today:
S:after being awake from 4:30.5:45-7 in swing
S: 8:15-10:00 needed resettling
S: 11:15-12:45 then she nursed and fell asleep right away for 40 mins. Then she nursed again and dozed off perhaps for another 40 mins.
S: 3:45-6.(Here is the problem I think)
Would OT cause her to wake every 40 mins? She seems happy to stay awake for the 1:15 but yawns at 45 mins and then no other real signs. She does fuss as soon as we put her sleep sack on
S: 7:15
Also, she sleeps in her swing for all her naps. Her naps were all 20 mins before that. Could the swing be becoming a prop so she can't settle at night anymore?
-
Last night was marginally better.
Bed just before 7 wake 10:50 wake 2:30 wake 4:30 then she went back for and hour til 6:15. I tried to get her to doze til 7. She sucked the paci and seemed in and out. However her AM nap was 40 mins. I went by her 6:15 wake and put her down at 7:30. I am so confused by her. It consumes my whole day.
-
If she was dozing til 7, or at least resting - take 6:45/7 as her wakeup time. That 40min nap was probably because she wasn't tired enough to sleep a full nap.
That is a better night. I think the consistency of making sure she sleeps/dozes/rests til 7am and gets that last nap cut off and has clear messages as to when the night starts should help if you stick at it for a week or so. It could be sooner, but best to stick like glue for a week and then re-evaluate if you need to.
-
I have a hard time figuring out her wake up time as she is more often than not awake before 6 and then dozes while nursing. I am not sure to count the dozing as actual sleep or not. Today she woke at 6:15 and nursed and dozed. So I made her first nap from 6:15 and put her down at 7:30. She woke after 40 mins but went right back and slept for 2 hours total. So do I make wake up 6? She's had 3 two hour naps today. Which is better that her night which worries me. She can go 3 hours between feeds and have 2 hour naps and at night goes 1.5 hours sometimes. I waffle between her being OT and UT at night.
-
If she's dozing, count it as sleep, or at least half the dozing time. Best off counting the whole lot as sleep and resettling the OT nap if you end up with one (unlikely).
-
Last night was terrible. She would not go for her catnap in her swing so I tried to rock her. She slept for 10 mins. So I got her up got her jammies on and tried to get her down for the night. She didn't sleep til after 7pm though. Then up at 8:30n 11:30 2:30 where she was up until 4:30. The she went back until 6:06. No dozing or anything. I am so tired and at a loss as to why she is waking so frequently and why for so long. I didn't sleep a single wink last night. It's killing us.
-
Anyone see anything I don't? Could it be my breast milk? I am seriously sleep deprived.
-
I see a night when she actually slept 'for the night' at 7-6. She's OT, sure but maybe you've got a great opportunity to start off the day from 6 and do your full A time.
Could it be my breast milk?
What's your letdown and supply like? Forceful Let-Down Problems Oversupply mimicing reflux!
Is she producing plenty of wet nappies? Poos are yellow and seedy?
-
We started off the day with full A time and she gave me a 40 minute nap. So today is all off kilter again being almost 3pm and she's had 3 naps already. So when I put her down at 3:45 I am not sure what to do. I know she'll attempt a long nap. How did it get so off kilter?
Her diapers are always really wet. Her poos have been plentiful but very stinky and runny. Sometimes seedy but mostly not. Sometimes a greeny colour.
-
Have a read:
http://breastfeeding.hypermart.net/toomuchmilk.html
http://kellymom.com/bf/got-milk/supply-worries/fast-letdown/
We had this and the frequent wakings and the screaming settled shortly after changing nursing positions and block feeding.
-
Last night was by far the worst. We tried to get her down for bed at 6pm because her last nap ended at 4:50. She wanted none of it and wouldn't go to sleep til 7:30. Then she was up at 9. My husband tried everything. Finally I nursed her and she went down at 11. Then she was up at 12:30-1. Then 2:30. She was up for 2 hours. Just would not sleep. I brought her to bed with me finally and we nursed. She slept from 4:30-6. I nursed her at all wakings. She nursed and dozed from 6-7:10.
I read through the material and I don't think it's an issue for letdown. How can she survive on such little sleep? Her longest stretch of sleep is now 2 hours and that is in the swing. Yesterday's naps weren't stellar either. Now I am thinking she is just so OT she can't sleep. How do I fix this? She can't survive on 4.5 hours night sleep and 5.5 hours day sleep surely. I don't even know what to do.
-
Not oversupply either? The poos sounds like DS' when he had foremilk overload...
What about this: Reflux 101 - General reflux information Alternative diagnoses and Reflux mimics.
Have you any way to get her to sleep that is reliable? I wonder if she sleeps better in the swing because she's not flat - if so, can you put her cot mattress on an incline and see if that helps?
-
She doesn't seem refluxy. But her poos are off. She is just so OT today I am beside myself. 4.5 hours of nightsleep is not good for anyone. I am contemplating letting her sleep in her swing all night. We all need some sleep. Then I wonder if that is why she can't get through 1.5 hours because she is used to falling asleep in there. We let her faLl asleep in there at BT since my DS goes to bed at the same time and it was too hectic. I will read up on the links. Thanks for posting them and helping me. I am so down about the nights. They were so good in comparison. I just don't get why all the sudden change. We were getting at least 5 hours before. I haven't slept at all either so I am a mess.
-
Ok, How often are you feeding and are you feeding one side at each feed or two? How do you decide when to switch sides?
I just don't get why all the sudden change.
As the gut damage from foremilk overload or reflux gets worse, so do pain and symptoms. DS had an awful time with the foremilk overload until I did block feeding - one breast for 4hr, then the other for the next 4hr is a good starting point. It helps ensure each breast is fully drained and baby is getting plenty of fats which tend to come towards the later end of the feed because they stick to the walls of the milk ducts. You can try massaging your breast near the chest wall before a feed to try and get the fat to release earlier in the feed too.
Honestly, I was told over and over by every medical professional I saw with DS that I didn't have enough milk because he wasn't gaining - he was always hyper from all the sugary watery milk and not gaining because he wasn't getting the amount of fat he could have been if I hadn't been misreading the situation. We all do it when babies are young - every baby is different and they don't come with a manual!
What do you think?
-
Last night was a little better. She had a hard time going down for her catnap and took 1.5 hours trying to fall asleep. Then she slept more than 45 mins so we woke her at the hour and got her down at 7:45. She again took ages to settle, until after 8.
Yesterday
7 (after dozing from 6:15)
S: 8:15-8:45. Then we got her to go back for maybe another 20 mins.
S: 10:15-12:45
S: 2-4
S: 5:15 but didn't fall asleep until 5:30-6:30
S:7:45 but didn't fall asleep until after 8
S 8:15-12:15
S 1-2:30
S 3-4:30
S 5:25-6:25
Dozed while nursing. I am never sure if she is sleeping. Her tongue is not really sucking just flicking and deep breathing. So maybe I just get us up then?
She still is getting longer sleeps in the day in her swing than at night. At night she seems to go all of the sudden in 1.5 hour spurts. When she wakes she's not crying just wide awake and happy wanting to play. She sticks out her tongue and smiles etc. Excitable almost. So I am not sure she's in any pain. I didn't switch sides yesterday to see if that would help. She's gained a ton of weight. She's 4 lbs over her birth weight. She gained 3 lbs from birth to her 6 week appt. So I don't know about the oversupply thing. But I will try block feeding to see if that will help. Thanks for the advice.
-
Can we explore the idea of her being super OT that's why she's waking? She is getting less sleep than my 5 year old. Could 1.15 A time be just too much? Should I let her sleep more in the day to make up for her crummy nights? Everywhere else I read on the internet it says babies her age need a max A time of 45-60 mins. Babywise says 50 mins as do a few other places. She does yawn at 30 and 45 mins then she really doesn't have any other signs. She does get fussy sometimes around the hour mark and glassy eyes but for the most part she's happy. She just can't be getting enough sleep with 8 hours total night sleep.
-
If she was super OT, IME (and having had a super OT baby at that age), she would be waking frequently in the first few hours of the night. She seems to be getting a good stretch in first thing at night now, then she's waking every 1.5hr... I don't know why. What do you do when she's up during the night? The wakings seem to be quite long to me, but that could be because I had a fast feeder...
She had 14hr in that 24hr period - here's the 'average: (Typical Amounts of Day and Night Sleep).
1-3 months 15-18 hours Three naps, 1.5 hours each + catnap;
More alert and aware 8 hours at night#
of surroundings; able
to move head
# - This is the longest stretch of night sleep that could be expected before waking for a night feed, and not all the sleep the baby will get at night. Especially in the early days, babies will wake more often for feeding.
So she's a little below the 15-18hr... your instinct is telling you to pull her A time back to an hour or so, yes? If so, give it a go - you know her best.
-
Ok so a perfect EASY day.
S: 8:00-9:30
S:10:45-1 (had to resettle at 40 mins I think now our 40 min is OT)woke her
S:2:15-4:15 woke her
S: 5:20 (was super cranky so put down and she was out)
Am I doing the right thing by waking a baby in the day who never sleeps at night? I am tempted to leave her sleeping for her catnap. Yesterday we had to wake her after an hour. She's so tired from her bad nights my mom thinks I am nuts getting her up. Do I run the risk of worse nights by just letting her sleep? I was convinced before her EW's (see ny easy post) were from too much daysleep and now I am convinced it's from major OT.
-
I'd be surprised if it is major OT - she's not early waking, by the way, that's waking for the day before a 10hr night has passed (including wakings for a feed).
Am I doing the right thing by waking a baby in the day who never sleeps at night?
If you want her to sleep at night, yes. If you leave her sleeping all her long stretches during the day, she will switch day for night completely.
Have you read this: Better Sleep for Babies 101 or this: Sleep Training - the early days
Have you read any of Tracy's books? I know she explains the theories behind waking a sleeping baby during the day in Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems.
-
Thanks for hanging in there with me. It must be frustrating for you to give me advice when I am waffling all the time. I am sorry if I seem all over the place. I am tired and suffering from PPD again for the second time. I promised myself I wouldn't stress over sleep and here I am again. I really appreciate everything you guys are doing to help me.
At night when she wakes she feeds quite quickly. Then after her long stretch lately she's been up every 1.5 hours. I feed her then she's just awake. Happy. I did scale back her A today but now after reading what you wrote I think I am screwed tonight. Here:
S:2:15-4:15 (woke her and she was not impreSsed)
S:5:22-6:22 (same, not happy to be woken)
S: 7:18 after a bath and feeding. She was so tired! So from 2:15-7:13 she may be treating it like her night like the long naps she was having at the end of the day when all this started. Sheesh. So her needs are probably average, just spread out weirdly due to me being inconsistant with her A times. So it's probably not oversupply or OT, just most likely too much day sleep just as she suggested in the EASY forum from day one. Boy people reading this thread must be shaking their heads!
-
Hugs honey, its totally understandable - babies are so confusing. These early days with a new baby are hard, even without PPD, additional children to care for, etc.
So from 2:15-7:13 she may be treating it like her night like the long naps she was having at the end of the day when all this started.
I think you're right and her night has now shifted from 4-4 to 3-3 and now to 2-2. Really if you want to get her 'right' in terms of day/night, here are the steps:
* Outside in the sun for a little time during every A time if possible, most importantly the first A time of the day.
* No nap longer than 2hr during the day
* Minimal interaction during night wakings (pick your time, eg. 7pm-7am and every waking there is considered a night waking) - feed, change nappy if required, no talking, no unnecessary light.
I think re: feeding fast and frequently at night, maybe just block feed then, since your other feeds seem a reasonable space apart and the early hours of the morning are when she's struggling most. I'd also suggest lying back to feed then, as that's when your supply is highest since you've been resting your energy can go into making milk ;) http://www.biologicalnurturing.com/
I'm happy to stick with you til we can get this sleep thing sorted out. Do you have any IRL support re: PPD? Please feel free to post on the PPD forum for advice and support relating to that if you need to. You need to look after yourself too, in all of this :-*
-
Well we were wrong about the 2-2 but for sure 5:30-5:30. She went down at 5:20 for her catnap and I woke her after an hour. She was not pleased and went back to sleep within 45 mins. Then was up at 11:30 then 3:30 then 5:30 for the day. I managed to get her to doze and now she is in her swing sleeping. I figure she needs about 16.5 hours in 24. So how do we spread it out? She just kEeps shifting and shifting.I think what happens every so often is she is UT at BT then gets OT so the frequent wakings.
What would an EASY look like with that amount of sleep? I think her body clock is pretty messed up right now!
-
Should I just go with the 5:30-5:30 for now or stick with 7-7? She woke today at 5:22 but really only dozed until 7. So her first nap was OT. This is what has been happening. I am trying so hard for a 7 waking that this dozing may not be sleep at all so her first nap is always 40 mins (OT here). But if I nap her at 6:45 am in the swing then we just keep shifting more and more sleep to the day. So from 5:22-8 when her first nap was she was really only dozing. I am trying to go by A time from then as suggested. When she falls asleep for her "catnap" at 5ish do I just let her sleep like it's night or do I wake her after 45 mins. Then her day is super long from 5:22 am to 7 thus perpetuating this cycle. Why does infant sleep have to be so hard?
I am getting support for my PPD. I decided to go on meds again. I am always so anxious about her sleep as you can probably tell!But it's hard when I am hardly getting any myself!
-
I think at this age, you're best going for 7-7 and just doing it rather than trying to get onto a routine and then shift it because you won't be able to shift it by large enough increments to make any real difference because her A time is so small still.
So from 5:22-8 when her first nap was she was really only dozing.
What does this mean? Was she dozing from 5:20-7, then awake til 8? What about taking A time mid-way through the dozing, so its not all sleep but not all awake either, so take awake as 6:15/6:30 in this instance and PD for a nap at 7:30/7:45? That'll get you closer to 7-7, at least...
-
I give up. She was up literally all night last night. She went down at 6:45 and woke at 10:45. I fed her and put her back down at 11:15. She was up after 30 minutes. So I rocked her and put her down again, up after 30 minutes. So I finally brought her into bed with me and nursed again. She fussed and played and fussed and played some more. Then at 4 she fell asleep but woke after 30 minutes. I nursed her and she fell asleep from 5:30-6 and was up for the day. She was so hyper, sticking out her tongue, kicking her legs. Shaking almost. You should see her eyes, red and huge bags. I am so upset and exhausted today. What is causing this? So from 6:45-6am she slept 4 hours plus a few 30 minutes. I nursed at 10:45, 1ish, and 5. She was literally awake most of the night. Not crying just wide awake hyper and wiggly. It's 7:30 now and she's still not asleep in her swing.
My husband thinks she addicted to the swing so she can't sleep without it. If this is true, how do I wean her off it? She needs sleep and I need sleep.
-
Have you got her cot elevated? Is she sleeping in the swing with it going or just still?
Waking after 30min really suggests pain to me. Will she sleep any other way than in the swing?
Sticking out her tongue... it rings little bells for me but I can't figure why. Will ask around for you.
-
Any signs of reflux discomfort Hun?
The tongue thing is a classic reflux symptom, and also for hunger too which is why it can be mistaken ::)
GS are the pits with refluxers because you never know what's going on. I'm wondering if there is some discomfort, then frequent feeding or a GS has created more of a problem and upset her nights KWIM?
Reflux 101 - General reflux information
Personally I think she's to young to have a swing prop...but that's just my opinion ;) 12-16 weeks is more when props really develop. X
-
Sorry just realised Bec already asked about reflux....still wondering though? Any swallowing, gulping, pain sounding cries during A or S time. .
-
Personally I think she's to young to have a swing prop...but that's just my opinion 12-16 weeks is more when props really develop. X
This is my opinion too. At her age, she's sleeping better in the swing for a reason -- and it honestly sounds like the elevation is what's helping her to sleep better -- is the swing moving while she's in it, or is it stationary? My ds did not sleep well at night as a baby, but he slept great during the day, classic day/night reversal so I knew that he could sleep flat, he just wasn't doing it. Along with the signs of reflux, have you got any signs of overactive let down (Poop. What's normal, what's not and when to panic) or food intolerances? Does she have normal (for a breastfed baby) looking poops -- some info here -- Poop. What's normal, what's not and when to panic
(((hugs))) honey, it's hard to be so tired!
-
Last night was no better. We let her sleep in the swing (moving always) until my Dh came to bed at 11:30 as soon as she was moved she was up. I nursed and put her back down and 1.5 hours later she was up. Fighting to nurse so I did. Back down. Then I slept in the nursery again and from when I put her down it was quiet for 30 mins then the head turning, legs thrashing, yawning, quiet. Repeat with a sneeze or 2 thrown in. She's awake that whole time. Then at 4:50 she cried out. I got her and she'd pooped so I changed her and nursed again. I held her in hopes of more restful sleep but the whole time she was sleeping it was fitful. Legs moving, head turning. Whimpers like she will wake then quiet. This went on until 6:16 am. When she is awake she is super happy. Very little crying at all. Her AM nap has been only 30 mins everyday this week. She is shattered when she wakes. I looked at the poop pics and hers seem normal. She poops after every feed though. Yesterdays naps were 30 mins then 1.75, then just over an hour then 40 mins. Her napping is not stellar and we try to keep A times to 1:15. She still yawns at 30 and 45 mins and that's it. Her eyes are always glazed over. She may be getting 12 hours total in 24. I have considered hiring a sleep consultant to help us I am at my wits end.
-
Sorry, I realized I put the wrong link up there for the overactive let down --- http://kellymom.com/bf/got-milk/supply-worries/fast-letdown/
Will she sleep in the swing if it is still?
-
And the NW's continue. Last night 10:30 and 1:30 where she was awake until 4:30! I tried the swing and she just fussed and fussed. Then she fell asleep nursing in bed with me. She twitches every 10 mins or so. I assumed that this is in her sleep. But perhaps she was awake that whole time? When I woke at 7 she was quiet so I thought great! She's sleeping. Nope eyes wide open. So when we started our day she already seemed OT and gave me a 30 minute nap. She is such a strange child. She won't sleep in a non-moving swing. Wakes as soon as we turn it off. My DH has been letting her sleep in there until he comes to bed so I can get some rest. Yesterday her naps were terrible too. We just can't seem to get on an EASY 7-7 routine no matter what I do.
-
At her age of she needs to sleep in the swing, I'd let her sleep in the swing. Once she gets a little bigger you can decrease the motion of the swing, then stop it all together, and then transition her out of there. There was a mom I knew on here when dd2 was small who extended every nap her son took in the swing for months. He transitioned out of it ok.
-
She's 10 weeks today. Yesterday she would not take her catnap so she was up from 4:25-7. So first NW was at 10:30-12:15. Then I heard her rustling in her cot from 12:30-1:30 then she cried out. So I got her and fed her. Then she was up again at 3:30. Then from 3:30. No sleep. Literally. Maybe 10 minutes her and there. On my breast in the rocking chair. Again I brought her into bed and she was wide awake. Until 5:15. She fussed off and on my breast and slept 10 mins then woke repeat until 7 am. I just don't get it. I mean how can a baby go with such little sleep? 10 hours in 24? I mean really?
-
Hugs, my poor boy had little sleep at this age, it was discomfort (reflux) I really do think when they have such unsettled sleep pain is involved :-\
Agree with the others, just get her that sleep any way you can for now. Is she swaddled? I may help with the twitching.
-
And now no naps! Yesterday she had a 30 minute a 40 minute and hour 45 a 50 minute and we put her down for bed at 6 and she woke 40 mins later and would not sleep til 8:30. She did a 5 hour stretch in the swing and then was up pretty much the rest of the night. She doesn't seem in pain at all. Just wide awake. She doesn't cry at all. I don't get it. I am sick with worry. Could reflux really cause her to just lie awake?
-
Could reflux really cause her to just lie awake?
Yes, it could. It could also be silent reflux where she's not actually sicking up but that's double the burn - up and back down.
Have a read of this list of symptoms: Reflux 101 - General reflux information
-
She does sound really OT too and that can wire them but as bec says, not all LOs scream with reflux ;)
What A time are you going now? X
-
She is super OT now. We backed up her A to an hour and she's taking 1.5-2 hours of A to fall asleep and then sleep for 30-40 mins even in the swing. Yesterday was brutal. We tried from 5:30-8:30 to get her to sleep in the swing. She'd wake every 30 mins. Then was up from 11:15-12:15. And from 2:45-5. Then she slept from 5-6:15 and again for 10 mins and was up at 7. She's had a 40 minute nap since then. I really don't think it's reflux I just think she's so OT we can't get out of the cycle and I am losing it. Yesterday she had 10 hrs of sleepep total. Nothing is working not even the swing.
-
I put her down after 55 mins of A and she just fell asleep after 1.5 hrs of A. She yawned after 40 mins of A. I am so confused. And exhausted. I haven't slept in days. Got maybe 1 hour last night. I just think she is so OT now. Going bonkers. Should we just ditch the swing? It's the only place I can get her to sleep. Not car, on me, sling, stroller. Oh, awake after a nice restful 5 minute nap. Gahhhh.
-
Hugs, ok is she swaddled? I can't remember? ... Have you tried a dark room, white noise etc? With these naps, how does she eventually go to sleep? - and how does she wake up?
-
She is swaddled, dark room, white noise in her swing. Last night we left her in her swing and she slept til 3:30! I went to check on her and she was wide awake. But quiet! So I nursed her and she pretty much has been awake since except a 40 minute sleep. Timing her first nap is so hard because since 3:30 she's only had 40 minutes. So she's so tired in the AM. Am I doing the right thin shortening her A time to 1 hour with these bad naps? If her AM nap is 30 or 40 mins should her A be even shorter? We tried for a 5th nap yesterday and wouldn't take one so she was awake from 4:30-6:50. Si frustrating.
-
Have you got her cot elevated? Is she sleeping in the swing with it going or just still?
Waking after 30min really suggests pain to me. Will she sleep any other way than in the swing?
Sticking out her tongue... it rings little bells for me but I can't figure why. Will ask around for you.
Any signs of reflux discomfort Hun?
The tongue thing is a classic reflux symptom, and also for hunger too which is why it can be mistaken ::)
GS are the pits with refluxers because you never know what's going on. I'm wondering if there is some discomfort, then frequent feeding or a GS has created more of a problem and upset her nights KWIM?
Reflux 101 - General reflux information
Personally I think she's to young to have a swing prop...but that's just my opinion ;) 12-16 weeks is more when props really develop. X
I still think this sounds like discomfort.
Can you answer the above Qs to help us work it all out with you.
How long do you try for her to sleep in in your arms before giving up.
I wouldn't shorten her A anymore than 40/45 mins
-
She doesn't show signs of discomfort at all. She's a happy baby. She spits up but not all the time and just a little. Her cot is elevated. She sleeps in my arms or beside me the later part of the night because she is so unsettled when I put her down. Even in my arms she is unsettled in the morning hours. Just really jerky. Sleeps/wakes roots for my breast/latches/sleeps again. This goes on for hours so I never really know her wake time. Her first nap is never good. 30-40 mins so I shorten her next A to 45 mins and still a 40 minute nap. So far today she's had 3. So for her 4th again, I put her down at 45 mins A and after 1.5 hrs A she was still not asleep so my mom is out in the stroller with her. And this is in the swing. Even that's not working. Last night same thing. At 5:15pm she showed signed of being ready (fussy, red eyes, yawn so we put her down at 55 A) and no nap. I am so confused. I thought after a short nap to shorten A times. We can't seem to figure out what A works because right now nothing is working to get her decent day sleep. She turned 10 weeks last Friday.
-
Yesterday was the worst. She had 4 or 5 40 min naps and in the carriage she slept for 20 mins. We put her down at 6:15 and she was out cold until 12:15. The she slept from 1-2:30. The from 2:30 onwards nothing. I even put her in her swing and she finally fell asleep at 4:20-5:20. At 5:20 I nursed her and she was awake until 6:20 when I decided to throw in the towel and get up. I put her down for her nap at 7 and she cried and fussed til after 8 and then slept for 37 minutes. I am done. Done, done, done.
-
These '
She sleeps in my arms or beside me the later part of the night because she is so unsettled when I put her down. Even in my arms she is unsettled in the morning hours. Just really jerky. Sleeps/wakes roots for my breast/latches/sleeps again. This goes on for hours so I never really know her wake time.
Are all signs of discomfort to me Hun ??? Discomfort will cause OT too... A tight swaddle will help with the jerkiness.
Hugs
-
She's swaddled in the Miracle Blanket. So if she was uncomfortable then why wouldn't she sleep in the swing? I am so confused. She doesn't act during the day like she is.
Also we shortened her A due to terrible nights and 40 minute naps and now all naps are 40 mins. We shortened them to 50 mins swaddle wind down in hopes of asleep by 1 hr. Now she's taking up to 1.5 A to fall asleep and still doing 40 min naps. So I can't do an EASY because she's all over the place. Not one good nap in days. Should I take her to the dr for reflux?
-
So if she was uncomfortable then why wouldn't she sleep in the swing?
because its comforting, or elevated? - it moves just like we do when we try to settle.
My refluxer will sleep in the baby hammock, sometimes my arms, a baby seat sometimes but not the bassinet ::) We will get there but he does a lot of behavioral things like your Lo is doing. :-\
As Bc says silent reflux isnt about the spit up, its what we adults call heartburn, and doesnt always include spitup.
I wonder also if she has tummy troubles...do you wind her after every feed? Does she have gas?
40min naps are common at this age. We get a lot of them ::) if you cant resettle try not to panic, just get her up and carry on with another short A time. I wouldn't bother with any shorter than 45mins-1hr though. HUGS it is tough
-
Not sleeping in the swing... could just be that whatever discomfort is going on is getting worse and the swing is no longer doing the job. That crashing and sleeping that really long stretch at the beginning of the night is pretty classic discomfort-related OT.
I think its worth at least taking her to the doc and talking about the behaviours you're seeing - the constant seeking of the breast even soon after feeding, the decrease in sleep, the refusal to sleep even in the swing, the spitting up - what does it look like, does she seem bothered by it, what does it smell like? what does her breath smell like?
-
Sorry I read that wrong ::) but yes as bec says, at some point even comforting things don't work ;)
-
The spit up is mucusy. It only happens once or twice a day though but from overfeeding in the AM hours for sure. I think now she is so OT we are in a vicious cycle. Too OT to nap well and OT from the super long wakings. I am wearing her right now because she was a hot mess. She have never slept in the sling. She wakes after 20 mins, 30 mins and 1 hour with a gurgle. Her spit up doesn't smell nor does her breath. So if she has 40 min nap, nap her again after 45 mins? Poor thing will never be awake! So give 5-6 naps too? Up until this week we could give her her paci when she woke from a too early nap, now, she won't take it. I heard the long stretch at the beginning of the night is due to OT babies crashing. But then she's literally up. How do we get out of this cycle? What if it's not reflux and now just major OT and even the swing won't work? Her first nap is always the worst because her night is so fitful from 4-5pm onward. So by the time she is ready to nap she has barely slept and always does a 30-40 min nap. Then her second used to be super long probably to make up for lost nightsleep and her first nap. I will take her to the drs but I am not optimistic. Does she really have reflux symptoms or is now just chronically OT.
-
I do wind after every feed and she has a lot of burps. Usually a huge wet one or two. But at end of night we are lying down sometimes she is on the nursing pillow with me in rocker. If I wind her she wakes and we have to start all over again.
-
Honey, I had a chronically OT baby at this age - he slept a lot better than your DD. He hardly napped and when he did, it was APOP'd but he slept at night - his sleep total for 24hr was much higher than your DD's. With super OT, LO is often difficult to get to sleep and sleeps fitfully but you *can* APOP your way out of it. In your case, even your APOP (swing) which was working before is not working - that tells me that there's something else other than just OT at play here.
Wet burps are another symptom of reflux.
-
I really hope you are right. The swing always worked. Even the car or stroller doesn't work. I got a nice nap in the sling but very fitful waking all the time. She's clocking maybe 10 hrs in 24. Crazy eh? Poor little thing. I really hope there's something else going on. We don't even leave the house because she won't sleep elsewhere. But now even the swing isn't working. I could cry. In fact I cry all the time. My whole family is falling apart. I haven't had more than about 2 hrs sleep in weeks. My 5 year old is rejecting me, I am not looking forward to Christmas because where will she sleep when we go out? Thanks for listening and attempting to help.
-
When you see the doc, make sure to talk about the wet burps, the spitting up with mucous (have you looked into a milk/soy protein intolerance?), the constant seeking for the breast and all those behaviours as well as the sleep thing. Take a list - they tend to take you more seriously then. I'd say that even if you walk away with a trial of reflux meds for 2-3 weeks, if it helps then you know and if there's no improvement, you know its something else, yk?
-
I'd say that even if you walk away with a trial of reflux meds for 2-3 weeks, if it helps then you know and if there's no improvement, you know its something else, yk?
this... :-*
The mucus does sound intolerant like to me too...if your BF maybe try dairy/milk free for a few weeks and see if you see improvement?
In fact I cry all the time. My whole family is falling apart. I haven't had more than about 2 hrs sleep in weeks.
Sweetheart an unsettled baby is just the worst. It is so hard. But as Bec says, worst case you try these things and nothing improves, at least you know you have tried and ruled them out. You could well see great progress too and then everything 9including sleep) will fall into place :-*
Are you worried about you at all hun? - Its so easy to forget about your needs, please post on PPD or talk to your Dr if your worried you are feeling too sad or anxious
-
Hi sweetie, I'm just coming to post some ((((hugs)))) and to echo what the other ladies are telling you.
We're really trying to help -- but I'll tell you what we're seeing in the hopes that it makes some sense to you -- Sara, Bec, and I aren't baby experts or anything, but we've been around this forum for awhile and we've all had LOs of our own and helped lots of others with their LOs. I've had 2 babies that were pretty awful nappers, Bec had one with tummy issues from overactive let down/oversupply/foremilk overload who was chronically overtired at that age, Sara has had 2 refluxers now (she deserves a medal, I think...) -- and the reason that I tell you this, is that my babies that didn't nap well crashed hard at night (actually ds was a terrible night sleeper, but crashed hard during the day) -- Bec mentioned the same thing, and Sara mentioned her experience with her little guy -- given the right setting, they do crash because their bodies need sleep. I have a nephew who was/is a horrendous sleeper -- but he would crash and do a good 4-5 hours too.
My point is, I don't think I've ever seen a baby who wakes constantly day and night without there being some sort of discomfort.
We're not there with you, I know. We're not seeing what you're seeing and dealing with what you're dealing with (I think we all wish we were so we could give you a break, we all know how crazy hard it is to be so sleep deprived and not know how to fix things).
So, based on what we're reading, here's what we're saying:
1) She might have reflux. She has wet burps, she won't sleep flat, she's very unsettled. (I know we've linked this before, but just to put it all in one place: Reflux 101 - General reflux information )
2) She might have a food allergy/intolerance -- again, she's unsettled, she sometimes spits up mucous -- keep in mind that food intolerances get worse as they get older and have continued exposure to foods that bother them. Here's some info on that: Does my LO have food intolerances?
3) She could be getting too much foremilk -- http://kellymom.com/bf/got-milk/supply-worries/fast-letdown/
I think it's good that you're going to the doctor for her -- like the other ladies said, if nothing else, you will come away having ruled some things out. I would honestly do whatever you can to get some sleep into her, no matter what it is. Don't worry about what you "should" be doing right now in terms of routine, etc. I think Bec said -- bring very specific notes to you appointment on her eating, sleeping, etc habits -- point out how often she's waking, what she's doing when she's waking, wet burps, mucous in spit up, etc.
And most of all, biggest of ((((hugs))))). If you're up for it, I'd post on the PPD forum if you need some support.
-
We're headed to the doctor tomorrow but I am not optimistic at all. I have tried everything today and nothing is working to make her sleep. Last night she crashed again from 7-1 then 2 til 3:30 then up. She fitfully slept from 5:20-6:20 and had 40 mins this Am and another 40 mins an hour and a half later. It takes her an hour and a half of A to fall asleep now. I really hope that you guys are right and it's something other than a chronically OT baby because I can't go on like this.
I am getting support from my mom. She comes everyday and can't believe how little she sleeps. Everyone is shocked. Noone can believe how wide awake she is all day and night long. I am on meds for ppd but still feel like this will never end. I thank you for following this journey with me.
-
So today has been a strange day. She slept for 40 mins this AM, then after an hour would not go back down so I brought her to bed with me. She never nurses to sleep in the day and she fell asleep off and on for 2 hrs. Not solid sleep. Then another hour later she slept for 2.5 hrs and now it's 5:25 and she's been asleep a little under an hour. Am I doomed to let her sleep so much? Do they make up for lost sleep at night in the day? Or will her sleeping so much today make tonight worse? Do I wake her or let her sleep as much as she needs to to get caught up? I swear she has no rhythm.
-
let her sleep sweetie....Z would take rubbish 20min naps every day then crash some days for 3hrs and I would worry he was dead! But he needed those catch up naps YK? Prob did all his growing then ;)
Hang in there, when is the drs apptmt? :-*
-
We have an appt today with GP but I am sure it will be for a referral to a paed. Last night was so bad. She went down at 6:45 and woke every 20 mins until after 8. Then she was up at 12:30. We could not get her back to sleep. I even got my dh to try. She slept in her swing finally for 40 mins until 3:20. Then from then on she slept every hour for get this....20 mins. Have you ever heard of a baby sleeping so little. It's just ridiculous.
-
(((((hugs)))))) sweetie, I think there has to be something going on, I've never heard of a baby sleeping so badly without something else going on.
-
I think there has to be something going on, I've never heard of a baby sleeping so badly without something else going on.
Absolutely agree. I've not seen a baby sleep so little without something else at play.
Huge hugs xx
-
So GP prescribed ranitadine but was reluctant. She seems to think I just have a very OT baby on my hands. I also wonder if she is allergic to the meds I am taking. I am on Lexapro but my dr said very very little is passed to baby. I dunno. Have you ever heard of such a poor sleeper in your life?
-
Have you ever heard of such a poor sleeper in your life?
Yes, but not when there wasn't something going on medically and most often, it was reflux.
Do you have a friendly pharmacist around who may be able to tell you a bit more about any studies that have been done about Lexapro wrt BFing have shown?
FWIW, most GP's seem reluctant to prescribe meds for reflux at first. What's the dosage she's prescribed and what does LO weigh? Within a week or two of starting the ranitidine (and provided you have an effective dose), you should see an improvement if it is reflux.
The mucousy poos/spit ups - did she say anything about that? That's what makes me think of intolerance to milk and/or soy protein...
-
Poor little chicken's been asleep going on 3 hours now. Gonna have to wake her :(. She prescribed 1ml twice daily. She's 13lbs 6oz. She said it was on the low side of the reco'd dose. She thinks it's in my head due to my anxiety but how can my anxiety really cause such poor sleep? Even my dh was astounded. I hope this works! If not I don't know what else to do. I am so close to giving up bf-ing. How would I go about cutting dairy? I don't eat a lot of dairy or soy. I don't drink milk, just almond milk. I eat a bit of cheese but rarely. Should I try that too? Or is giving up bf-ing my only hope?
-
Here's some information: Does my LO have food intolerances?
Best to ask these questions on this board: Colic, Reflux, & Crying Happy to shift them over for you if you like.
There is a link somewhere about how to go about an elimination diet - I can't find it right now but will ask about it.
-
Hey there, just adding on to the wonderful advice the ladies have given you and giving you loads of (((hugs))).
Firstly, the ranitidine dose is indeed low. Most LO's need close to the maximum dose for ranitidine to be effective, as it is very weight sensitive. See below the link for the recommended dosages.
http://refluxrebels.com/Acid_reflux/Acid_reflux_medication.html
Breast milk is definitely better for baby than formula, even if she's currently reacting to your breastmilk. She's more likely to tolerate your breastmilk on an exclusion diet than to tolerate hypo allergenic formula. If you're willing to go on an elimination diet (ED) I'd give that a try first. But obviously hon it is a personal decision and I really understand how tired you must be.
Here is the link for the ingredients to avoid. You may not eat a lot of dairy, but if you start checking you'll likely see that there is hidden dairy in a lot of foods. So it is best to exclude all dairy (obvious and hidden) for a few weeks to be able to conclude whether it helps or not. To start with, I'd exclude dairy and soy, and do the ranitidine as well and re-assess after 2 weeks.
Ingredients to avoid for food allergies - Milk, Soy, Eggs, Peanuts, Gluten
More (((hugs))) for you sweetie, hope she settles for you soon :-*
-
She thinks it's in my head due to my anxiety but how can my anxiety really cause such poor sleep?
OMG. I can't believe she told you this. There is NO way that being anxious could cause sleep problems like you're experiencing.
-
Quote from: jcsmom on Today at 15:16:26
She thinks it's in my head due to my anxiety but how can my anxiety really cause such poor sleep?
OMG. I can't believe she told you this. There is NO way that being anxious could cause sleep problems like you're experiencing.
yes, this. totally!
-
She thinks it's in my head due to my anxiety but how can my anxiety really cause such poor sleep?
OMG. I can't believe she told you this. There is NO way that being anxious could cause sleep problems like you're experiencing.
>:( this. I was an anxious mess with Z and he still crashed at night. Yes they do pick up on our stress but not like that. How unhelpful...hugs :-*
Elise has said all I was going to add Hun. The dose is low but not rock bottom so hopefully you see some effect :-\ re ED I'm dairy free ATM, and it's ok...PM me if you want to discuss food alternatives x
-
She thinks it's in my head due to my anxiety but how can my anxiety really cause such poor sleep?
OMG. I can't believe she told you this. There is NO way that being anxious could cause sleep problems like you're experiencing.
Just jumping on to agree and add some (((hugs)))!! I admit I haven't read all the way through your thread, but that is so not true! If it were, my kids would have never slept! ::)
(((Hugs))) honey, you've got the best of the best supporting you on this thread. I hope you can get some of these things figured out soon.
-
Thanks ladies, I really appreciate your support. I got her meds today and am keeping my fingers crossed. She did not too bad last night 6:15-11:15 then 12:15-4. But then after 4 sleep again was hard to come by and we started our day at 6 am. Yuck. So down for a nap in the swing at 7 and she fussed and carried on until 8:30! Then slept 30 mins. Even my apop doesn't work to get this kid to sleep. So far in the swing she's had 3 30-40 minute naps. Our A time has been down at 1 hour alseep by? Sometimes it's been taking her up to 1.5 A to fall asleep. I don't get her. Her catnap last night was 20 mins. In the swing even! It's craziness. We can't figure out when she's tired because she doesn't yawn. If she does it's not long after waking, like 30-40 mins. We're just going by 1 hour A. So confused.
-
I feel so hopeless. She barely slept yesterday. 20-40 minute naps in the swing all day. Taking forever to fall asleep. Slept from 6:45-12:30. Then 1-3 and I am not kidding was up since then. It's now 8 am and she is still awake in her swing. I am beside myself. We started the meds yesterday. She's not crying when she's awake, just wide awake. Like toothpicks are holding open her eyes.
-
More (((hugs))) for today!
-
Oh honey so many hugs. Well she sleep if you take her into bed with you? X
-
I do bring her in bed at that time. I nurse her and then she's wide awake. She wants to stay on my breast and I can't take it out of her mouth. She's sucking the whole time so she's not sleeping. If I remove my breast she's wide awake. Hours of this. Even if I sit in the rocking chair it's the same thing. So I don't know when she wakes because she's awake the whole time, just suckling like a soother.
-
Will she take a paci? - maybe that will help? X
-
She was and now has decided not to :( it was my saving grace when she woke early from a nap. Now she just spits it out. I have tried all the apop's with her and nothing. I ordered a new sling to see if that will help with the naps. How should I proceed with EASY now she's doing 30-40 min naps? I just put her down sooner and give her 5-6 naps. Is this right or should I make the 6th nap bedtime at 5ish pm since her nights suck so bad anyway? I am so confused.
-
Hugs, we have sucky short naps too and I just offer more like you and try to keep BT the same, but our nights are good. Maybe try really EBT ... It may help
How long is your first A now and how old is she x
-
She's 11 weeks. Her first A is hard to judge because I never know when she's "awake" as she's just attached sucking and not really sleeping. So I go from when I take my nipple out til she wakes and cries sometime around 6 or 7 and go an hour A from there sometimes even 45 mins as she is sooooo fussy first thing. I think I may try a super EBT to see if that helps. Like instead of a 5th nap. Today it would have been at 5 but she refused so I got her up and nursed and she was down at 6:30 but woke 20 mins in screaming so OT but I resettled quickly. Poor pumpkin!
-
How are things today. I've been thinking of you. :-*
Do you feed her to sleep for all naps? X
-
Yesterday was a bit better. She had a 3 hour nap after not sleeping for hours and went to bed at 6pm was up at 12 and 4 and 6am but fell back asleep for 20 mins til 7:15. She doesn't feed to sleep for naps. She sleeps in her swing. I have a hard time with her A time right now. She yawns at 45 mins so I have been putting her down for 1 hour A. But she often takes ages to fall asleep like 30 mins and then has a 40 minute nap. Or sometimes a long one. There is no rhyme or reason. Her tired signs are unreliable I think.
-
Her tired signs are unreliable I think.
This is really common. I had an impossible time reading all of mine at babies. They can yawn for all sorts of reasons -- tiredness, but also boredom, having just woken up, who knows?
-
Well nothing has changed. Nights are still bad. As are naps. I was hoping for a miracle with the reflux meds but I honestly think she's just OT and we can't get out of the cycle. If I can't even apop her into a good nap how am I ever going to get her to get caught up enough to sleep well at night? I just feel like this will never get better.
-
Will she sleep if you walk outdoors with her in a wrap? It's my sure fire way to get a sleep from T when he is unsettled and OT. ... .???
Mmm we are on ~1 hr A and it's hit and miss but I 'think' T is HSN and a lot of LOs in our BC are on 1hr15 etc. iTools be she needs more A first thing? - I know what it's like though, if the first nap or two are rubbish the day just fes messy doesn't it! FWiW I have put T down after 30 mins when he has done a 20 min nap and he sleeps well so don't be afraid to try it, but certainly don't spend all day trying - drives you bonkers.
So have you seen any improvement on meds? How many days now? You giving it on empty tummy? X
-
She hates the wrap! Screams when in it. I have gotten her to nap in it once. I ordered an ERGO in hopes of having another option. Do I need to give meds on an empty stomach? I don't think her stomach is ever empty! Lol. Is your LO the same age as mine?
-
They are most effective if given 15/20 mins before a feed yes ;) ranitidine in particular which is what you have aye?
T is 9 weeks. So a bit younger :-*
-
An update. Naps are still terrible and we struggle everyday. Last night was our best night. 6:45-1 awake 1-2 and sleep 2-5:45. She would not go bts after that and her AM nap was only 35 mins. We have no EASY because some days she has 4 naps, sometimes 3 and sometimes 5. She is still only getting about 13-14 hrs in 24. By the end of the day she is a wreck so I know it's not enough.
-
Glad you had a good night. Since you're mainly working on naps now, I will lock this thread so you can keep all your new advice in one spot - on your naps thread.