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SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: mom2elise on July 06, 2012, 04:24:53 am
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DD is 10 months old. She is *very* attached to me, and has been even more so lately (won't even go to grandma who she sees ~4x a week) She might be teething? (she has no teeth yet, and has been extra fussy in the last few days). I try to keep our days fairly low-key... only one outing a day, she's an only child.
I've gotten into the bad habit of nursing her to sleep... it works for us right now as I'm at home with her full time, but then DH can't put her down for naps or bed at night.
She's quite small for her age (just over 15lbs at 10 months) and not a great eater (solids), so I always feel like I should feed/nurse her when she will take it... which seems to be right before sleeping, and also throughout the night.
Our typical EASY:
7:30 wake/nurse a bit
8:30 solids
10:45-12:00 nap 1 (nurse to sleep)
1:00pm solids
3:30-4:00 nap 2 (nurse to sleep)
6:00 dinner
8:00 nurse to sleep (usually falls asleep and I put her in the crib by 8:20)
occasionally, if she doesn't fall asleep nursing at night, then I sit in her room by her crib and let her suck my pinky. If I make any attempt to leave the room and she isn't asleep, she will start to fuss and cry.
at 11:30pm she wakes, and I nurse her back to sleep
at 3:00 am, she wakes, and I nurse her back to sleep
at 5:30am, she wakes, and I nurse her back to sleep
I'm pretty sure that these are habitual wakings, as she has been quite consistent at the wake times.
Fortunately, at these 3 wakings, she has always gone back to sleep if I nurse her
If I attempt to "wake to sleep"... do I just jostle her a bit? Or do I feed her? Or do I send DH in to her?
I'm very tired. And need to start thinking about going back to work.
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I think you might need to start weaning her from the feeds first. Slowly decrease your feed, one feed at a time by 3 minutes every 3 days if you are breastfeeding. So if she normally nurses for 10 minutes nurse her for 7 minutes for the next 3 nights. Then do 4 minutes for hte next 3 nights, etc. Personally I think you need to take care of at least one of these feeds first before you try to cut the waking out. My pedi also suggested giving a little water instead of milk. So maybe if you are using formula you could gradually increase the amount of water (oz by oz every few nights). Because her little belly is used to the volume so she will continue to be hungry at those times because that is what her body is trained to do. Once she learns to eat less at night she will *theoretically* increase her amount of food during the day. HTH ;D
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thanks for the suggestions.
I'm breastfeeding her exclusively, so I'm not sure how much she's getting, but at the 11:30pm, 3am and 530am wake-ups, she tends to actively suck for 10 minutes, and then turns her head when she's full. She's asleep, and then I put her back into the crib... a few times, I've inadvertently jostled her, and still didn't seem to wake her at when it's in the middle of the night.
I guess I'll try to unlatch her mid feed? The few times I've tried that, she's gotten MAD but it's been a while, so maybe it'll work this time.
I'll let you know.
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I agree that she's going to need those feeds dropped gradually, so she gets used to not getting the calories at night, but I think she needs some independent sleeping skills as well to help you both through it. She likely gets mad when you try to shorten the feed, because feeding to sleep has become a prop and when she's not done with the feed/all the way to sleep, she doesn't know how to soothe herself. Are you ready/willing to work on a different way of settling her to sleep, i.e. shh/pat or PUPD?
I also think her routine could use a couple tweaks, so that she's more apt to sleep better. At 10 mo, I think that first nap could be pushed out a bit to after 3.5hr A, so at ~11 am. She's not doing a full nap there, which would be 1.5-2hr, so hopefully a bit more A time will help that. Then, her second nap can be anywhere from 30min-1hr, but if it's only 30 min, bedtime likely needs to be pulled in so that she's sleeping in the crib at 7:30 latest (that makes for a 12 hr day). As it is right now, I think she's going to bed OT and that's likely contributing to the NWs and her need to feed to sleep.
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Hi. Just jumping over from your other thread. I know you weren't keen on the gentle removal I suggested so I think Katie's suggestions of pupd and or shh pat are great alternatives.
I think if you can teach her to self soothe then you may find the NWs reduce anyway as she becomes more able to get back to sleep herself.
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Hi katie,
thanks for your suggestions. A few questions then re: tweaking the routine. Today, she woke at 7:50, and I stretched first A to 3.5h so went to nap 1 at 11:20. She is indeed sleeping for longer than she used to for nap 1. If she doesn't wake by 1pm on her own, do I wake her? Otherwise, this will put nap 2 (3.5 after waking) too late (past 4:30?) In the past, if she doesn't WAKE from nap 2 by 4:30, she doesn't seem tired by bedtime, and it seem today we won't be starting nap 2 until then.
Last night, she "only" woke at 3:30, fed for 20 minutes, and then up again at 6:30... nursed for 20 minutes, but fell back asleep, so I put her back into the crib until she woke at 7:50. I'm not a morning person myself, so this is fine for me :) but wondering if this messes up our EASY.
She's just a little thing (just 16lbs 1oz at 10.5 months) so the doctor said she might not be able to go a full 12 hours without feeding... I have a pretty bad case of "poor baby" syndrome :)
On the upside, she does seem a tiny bit more comfortable if I'm in another room for a few moments... she doesn't cry out immediately, so hopefully that phase is ending.
Thanks again for your suggestions.
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Stretching the A times like that puts her in the beginning of the 2-1 nap switch. So, you can still let her sleep up to 2 hr for the first nap, if you'd like and then the second nap will be capped to preserve bedtime. I don't think it's a problem to start the day at 7:50, you'll just be on more of an 8-8 routine. So, the EASY might look something like this...
Wake: 8 am
Nap 1: 11:30-1:30 pm
Nap 2: 5:00-5:45 pm (maybe only 30 min if she fights BT)
BT: 8 pm
I also think its totally fine for her to not go 12hr without a feed. If my baby was small, I'd be feeding too (in fact, my baby is not small and I still feed him occasionally ;)). I think the main thing is getting her to self-soothe, feeding when appropriate and making sure she's not OT at bedtime.
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Thanks! Will try that tomorrow....today was a disaster as we were out just before nap 2, and she fell asleep in the car as we were pulling onto our street. DH decided not to waste fuel driving around aimlessly for 30 min...which I agree with, but she wouldn't go back to sleep in the house, and has been super cranky...didn't eat much for dinner, so I'm sure she'll be up a few times tonight. She's in bed now asleep at 740, but not confident it will last!
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And Ali, as for self soothing, I was very encouraged the other night as I watched her (on the video monitor) wake and fuss a bit, then roll over and grab her bear before falling back asleep. I was in the midst of doing dishes, otherwise I probably would have rushed in too soon to try to "help" her back to sleep. Now, I'm trying to wait 5 minutes before going in if she's not full out crying, and the "sound" isn't escalating. I guess that's her mantra cry?
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Oh yes if it is just fussing or a mantra cry then you can hold back for a real cry.
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I've been trying to stretch morning A to 3.5, which does indeed give me a 1.5-2 hr nap 1, but am having lots of trouble getting a nap 2 at all. She needs it, though, as she is tired and cranky, but am I just missing her window? So far today, woke at 8am, nap 1 1150-2:00 but wouldn't do nap 2 at 500. I guess early bedtime then?
She missed nap 2 yesterday as well, and was up 3 times overnight (I think because OT)
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This is sometimes the tricky part of the 2-1. First, I wouldn't let here sleep over 2 hr for the morning nap. Then, you can push the CN a bit farther if you're on an 8-8 day. She could go down as late as 5:30pm for just 30 min and then still do BT at 8 pm. Another option would be to try to AP that CN in some way, by taking a walk with her in the stroller or carrier (if she'll fall asleep in one of those) or a short car ride (not very convenient at that time of day though :-\). Otherwise, yes, EBT is what you'll have to do to keep OT at bay. However, I think if you continue to gently push her every few days, you could get to 4.5hr A pretty easy (she did almost 4hr today), let her sleep for as long as she likes (up to 3hr :o) and do 4.5hr A to bed. She may be an early one to get to one nap.
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Oh, maybe this is my problem for nap 2? DD has now been up at 7, nap 1 1030-1200, so I try for nap2 at 330, but she's up at 4, and we start bath at 730. So, maybe last A needs to be shorter, and in bed by 7? Still NW at 1200 and 330am. Sigh.
It would be more convenient for me to have longer A in am, but I'm always afraid she won't have a long nap and then our day is messed up.
I'm also nursing to nap and bed still... I've gotten into some bad habits :( she's never fallen asleep independently.
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Question about 2-1 transition... If we do get to 4.5 A in am, doing I feed lunch (solids) before or after nap? I'll likely be nursing to sleep still :(
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Oh, and another question re:independent sleep. Today turned out this way:
After a midnight and 330 wake/feed overnight,
Up for the day at 700, ap 1 1030-1200, nap 2 330-400, tried to start bedtime routine at 730 for bed at 800. Did not fall asleep at breast, and put in crib. She is babbling and rolling away. Seems content, but that s because I am in the room with her. If I try to leave, she will cry. Does this count as the "chair method" or should I be trying to eave the room before she's asleep? It's been 40 minutes already. I haven't touched her...she usually falls asleep on my breast or sucking my pinky.
She's also teething right now...just cut her first tooth. Gave her Advil before bed. And she does have separation anxiety during the day.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
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Oh, maybe this is my problem for nap 2? DD has now been up at 7, nap 1 1030-1200, so I try for nap2 at 330, but she's up at 4, and we start bath at 730. So, maybe last A needs to be shorter, and in bed by 7?
Yes, if that second nap is only 30 min, she needs to be in bed, asleep by 7pm in order to prevent an OT night.
If we do get to 4.5 A in am, doing I feed lunch (solids) before or after nap?
It's your choice, really. A lot of moms do a split lunch, kind of like two snacks. So, maybe some yogurt, fruit, and grains beforehand and some protein, veg, or fruit afterward.
Does this count as the "chair method" or should I be trying to eave the room before she's asleep?
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the "chair method", but this would be how you'd start gradual withdrawal. You stay in the room with her and gradually move closer to the door every few nights. If she has SA, is teething, and has never gone to sleep independently, I wouldn't change the game on her now by doing PUPD or WIWO. Gradual withdrawal is typically the method recommended in this case. My guess is that she hit her second wind with a late BT or the Advil could have made her a bit hyper and that's why she didn't settle right away.
You mentioned a couple times about nursing her to sleep, and it seems like you might not be happy with that. Don't be ashamed of it in the least, almost all of us have fallen into AP at some point in our parenting. However, I do think that ultimately having her go to sleep independently is going to help the NWs and is just a bonus in general. And, obviously there will come a day when she won't be able to nurse to sleep. So, when you're ready to tackle it, just let us know and there's always someone here to help. :)
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I completely agree with everything Katie just said. Your routine is similar to ours right now and I do BT at 7 on those days.
I hope she dropped off OK in the end. That is a great start to gw.
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Sorry, I read a lot of sleep books before deciding on not a CIO method, and "chair" method is basically the same as gradual withdrawn...sit in chair beside crib, and gradually move chair farther away.
Well, last night, after an hour of tossing and babbling, she was tired enough to fall asleep, but she started to really cry, and didn't actually fall asleep until I picked her up and nursed her for 10 minutes. Overnight, she nursed at midnight and 330, then woke for the day at 800.
Had nap 1 1145-200, but we had company and she didn't eat much solids for breakfast or lunch...tried for nap 2 at 445 and didn't fall asleep, so, went for stroller ridev515-600 in hopes of catnap, but didn't sleep. Didn't eat much solids for dinner, and spent so long trying to feed dinner that bath didn't start until 650. It's 720 now, and she's finally getting settled on my breast. That seems like a long A to bedtime. Hoping she'll just fall asleep and stay asleep.
Yes, I have a lot of guilt re nursing her to sleep as many people and sleep books say its part of the reason she's not falling back to sleep in the middle of the night, and DH or anyone else can't get her to nap either. I need to start thinking about going back to work, but am not sure how that will happen...between the SA and nursing to nap/sleep....
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When you decide to do it, be it with gentle removal, gradual withdrawal or pupd, we will be happy to hold your hand :)
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Had nap 1 1145-200, but we had company and she didn't eat much solids for breakfast or lunch...tried for nap 2 at 445 and didn't fall asleep, so, went for stroller ridev515-600 in hopes of catnap, but didn't sleep. Didn't eat much solids for dinner, and spent so long trying to feed dinner that bath didn't start until 650. It's 720 now, and she's finally getting settled on my breast.
It sounds like the teeth might be bugging her if she's off solids a bit. I doubt she was tired enough to sleep at 4:45 after a 2.25hr nap. I wouldn't have tried for a CN until 5:30ish, or just done an EBT at 6:30pm.
When you decide to do it, be it with gentle removal, gradual withdrawal or pupd, we will be happy to hold your hand :)
Yep! :)
I need to start thinking about going back to work, but am not sure how that will happen...between the SA and nursing to nap/sleep....
It always seems much more daunting than it really is. If you're willing to put the work into it, there may be a few rough days, but I guarantee you'll feel empowered and freer once she sleeps independently. But, you have to be ready to do it and commit to it.
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Hmmm, not sure what happened today, but so far, after falling asleep last night at 740, she woke again at 800, and fussed in her crib for 30 min, before it turned into an escalated crying. I had already left the room, and she seemed to be ok to fuss without me, but still couldn't actually fall asleep. When her fussing escalated to crying, I went in and nursed her, at which pint she fell asleep. She normally wakes at midnight and 330ish, but last night, I heard her fuss a bit at midnight, but then she settled herself again until 330. Nursed when she"woke" at 630, and I was prepared to start the day with her as an EW, but she fell asleep, so I put her back into the crib, where she slept until 800.
I thought I would push A until 1145 (3.75hrs) which she seemed ok with...fell asleep nursing at noon, but woke at 1230!!! I'm guessing OT? Now what? I tried to extend, but no luck. Will definitely need a nap 2, but not sure what time, and what to do re bedtime.
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Should I have tried a longer A to nap, considering she was still relatively ok? A was same yesterday, and she had a 2hr15min nap!
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Sounds like last night's wakings were OT. I don't think this morning's A needed a push, you'd likely see a pattern of shorter naps over several days in order to do that. It was hopefully just a one-off, could have been teething pain, some OS, a funny tummy, who knows. ??? It's probably too late for this now, but I would watch her closely to see when she's ready to sleep again. It'll likely be after around 2-2.5hr later.
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Thanks...just nursing in the dark now. It's been 3.5 hrs (started nursing at 4ish). She almost asleep in the nursing pillow, and then can hopefully put her in crib. Not sure about how long to let her sleep, and when to start bedtime :(
Hopefully, daddy gets to see her tonight. That's the worst part of early bedtime.
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Sigh, did not stay asleep at nap 2. Woke at 430. Couldn't get her to bed until. 800, and she did not fall asleep nursing.
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Finally fell asleep at 900, then woke at 1100... Looks like it'll be a long night at this rate!
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(((Hugs))), sounds like OT. Just remember, tomorrow is another day.
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:) she woke at 400 and 630, and I nursed back to sleep. Up for the day at 800. I'm ok with that. I was telling DH last night, "I love our little bean so much! I would o anything for her, so waking a few times a night is annoying, but I'm ok with that.".
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So our day went like this: Up at 800, nap 1200-300, in crib asleep at 8pm, but woke again 30 minutes later at 830. She seems to be not "staying asleep" at the beginning of the night, and it takes 60-90 minutes to get her back to sleep. Am I starting bedtime too early, or late? She's just babbling away in her crib right now, but I'm a hostage in her room as she cries out if I try to leave.
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Am I starting bedtime too early, or late?
I'm not sure, tbh. Usually a wake-up 30 min after going to sleep is considered OT, but that was a really good day in terms of routine, the last A might have been just a touch long. :-\ What was she like when she woke? It could also be discomfort, is she still teething?
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She woke again tonight but after 60 minutes...right after I said to DH "she didn't wake today!".
Today was not a routine day. Nursed back to sleep at 330 (20 min) and 600. (15 min). Woke for the day at 730. DH let me have some "me time" and run errands, while he had daddy daughter time this am. Nap was supposed to be at 1115ish, but he took her out in the stroller at 10 to go to the park, but she fell asleep at 1015, so he strolled around until 1130 when she finally woke. It actually worked out better timing wise as we went to a wedding showe that afternoon, and she napped in the car on the way to a birthday party: nap 2 was 345-430 in the car. It took her 20 minutes of fussing in the car before she fell asleep...didn't want my pinky, didn't want a bottle...nursed before we left.
Got home late from the party, of course. Fussed a bit on the hour long drive home 715-815) but did not fall asleep. Rushed through bath etc ( she seemed wide wake) and then nursed to sleep. Was asleep in crib by 840, but woke around 10, and now is quite upset.
Just wish she would stay asleep!
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That's really common on days like that, she's OT and OS, likely.
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How do I get her back on track?!
Today was worse than yesterday... Except now she's refusing to nurse which she has never done before.
Last night, after she woke at 10, she didn't want to nurse, just cried really hard and clung to my neck. Finally gave her Advil at 1030, and rocked her to sleep by 1115. She woke at 500 and nursed for 20 min. Woke for the day at 800, but again, didn't really want to nurse.
Tried to get her to nap at 1200 (we were at church, and this was the earliest we could get home) but she screamed when I tried to nurse her, and she got really worked up...tried to get her to nap for almost an hour...tried Advil and everything. Finally gave up at 100. Played with her/ tried to feed her more lunch until 130, and then tried again for a np/nursing. No luck. At 145, took her out in the stroller in hopes she would fall asleep. It took 20 minutes, but she finally fell asleep at 205, but woke at 235kept strolling another 15 minutes in hopes she would fall back asleep, but no luck. We had to go out again this evening, and she was great while we're were out, but she got upset during the car ride home. Tried to feed her a bit more solids at 700, as she hasn't eaten much all day, and bath and Advil at 715. Again, did not want to nurse, but seems content enough right now in the crib rolling around with her bear and babbling away. I'm sitting here in the dark beside her crib.
Now that I've had some time to reflect, maybe she doesn't want to nurse because last night, she bit down hard on me and I yelled out loud as a reaction (it really hurt!) and that scared her? I pumped at lunch and she took some in a sippy cup, but not much.
I'm going to take her to the doctors tomorrow just to check she doesn't have an ear infection or something else going on. This screaming inconsolably is totally out of character.
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Good idea to take her to the doctor to make sure everything is ok. I've nursed two babies to 12mo+ and never been through a nursing strike, so unfortunately I don't have any words of wisdom there. But, you are always welcome to post on the BF board and will get great advice and support. It could possibly be from your reaction to the bite, I do have experience with that... it hurts! (((Hugs))), I know it's no fun to go through.
As for sleep right now, you'll probably have to find another way to AP her if she won't feed to sleep. :-\ It might be a few rough days, but she'll get back on track eventually, they always do.
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Thanks Katie. Apparently, she's healthy.
So, last night, finally fell asleep around 900. After rolling around in bed from 730-800, she started to cry and get upset, so I picked her up, and that seemed to make it worse? So I put her down, and stayed beside her crib, trying to pat or let her suck my pinky. Tried that for about 20 min, then picked her back up and ended up rocking her to sleep, with my pinky in her mouth. Not ideal. She woke 30 minutes after that, but I nursed her back to sleep (I really wanted to get some calories in her!) She fell asleep, and stayed asleep until300, when I nursed her another 20 minutes, and up for the day at 700. She did nurse for a bit at 700, but refused the rest of the day, so I ended up pumping and giving her some in a sippy cup. During the day, she drank about 150ml (5oz).
She was generally quite happy during the day. Played with grandma, and we stayed in. Hit a new milestone: Stood unassisted for about 30sec pretty consistently. Nap 1 tried to start at 1040, but was 1100 by the time she fell asleep. Again, didn't want to nurse, so put in crib, and I sat beside her until she got fussy, then she sucked my pinky for 10 min, and then fell asleep. Woke at noon. Nap 2 ... Started at 345, but again, didn't fall asleep until 400, and woke at 430.
Started bath at 730, for 745 bedtime. I put her in crib, and she was babbling away, until I noticed she had pulled herself up in the crib, despite having her bottom half swaddled...I panicked and took her out of the crib as the mattress was still on the middle wrung, and if she managed to lean forward enough, she might be top heavy enough to topple out. Got DH to move the mattress down(took almost 30 minutes) but I felt better. Meanwhile, DD as screaming up a storm. Gave her some Advil(just in case?) at 830, and tried to rock her like I did last night, but she kept pushing me away. Put her in the crib at 845, despite her hard crying, but it really wasn't any better if I held her, and she was just getting angrier if I tried to pick her up. I ended up just sitting beside her in the dark, trying to pat her, or let her have my pinky (much harder now that the mattress is all the way down, and I am quite short!). Eventually, settled, and sucked my pinky until she fell asleep at 940. Now, I'm not sure what to do re: waiting to try to nurse overnight, or just pump (will be uncomfortable if I don't nurse by midnight, but also afraid that the minute I finish pumping, she'll wake, wanting to nurse!).
DH is off for 2 weeks vacation and is totally on board with helping me in any way to get her sleeping independently, and through the night. After the hour or so of crying these last couple of nights, I'm feeling much more resolve as well.
I'm feeling like, if holding her and nursing her isn't working anyways, then I'm willing to try something else, even if she cries. I just don't want her to feel totally abandoned! Now's the time to do it, as DH doesn't have to be up at 5am, and will be able to watch her if I need to nap during the day.
Please walk me through this!
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I would recommend pd. There is no pick up in it at this age. You just put her down each time she cries and pulls up. You can use your voice and even a firm hand on her if that seems to help. My ds2 actually responds better if I sit next to the cot and just say "it's just sleepy time" in a soft, pleasant voice every time he cries I gently lay him back down and shush him a second or two and then go back to sitting and using my voice. You'll have to couple this with gradually leaving the room.
Do you think this might work for you?
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Yes, I think this is what I will try. last night, she woke at 1100, nursed for 20 minutes (thank goodness!) and again at 330(20 minutes) and again at 630(10minutes). Up for the day at 730. Still refusing to nurse, though, and I was only able to pump 50ml (2oz) to give her on a bottle this morning. A bit concerned as her diaper was dry this morning, and is usually soaked. Doctor said to bring her back tomorrow night, if still not wetting diapers. Was grumpy when woke this morning. Usually quite happy to see us.
A few questions: I'm assuming it is easier to do this for every nap/ bedtime, rather than just bedtime when going through the initial training, so no strolling or driving to nap, if possible?
Should I be trying to leave the room when she's quiet, or wait until she's asleep before leaving?
Is it ok to still let her suck my pinky, if I want to eventually wean her from this? I don't actually mind it, for now, but eventually...
What do I do if she doesn't end up napping within an hour or so of trying?
Should I be in the room when she is fussing, but the crying isn't escalating?
Should I be the one who does this or will it confuse her to have DH try as well?
How do I prevent OT during this phase?
Just started nap 1. 11:10 Offered breast, and refused :( Put her in crib, swaddled with bear. She turned and fussed a bit, but not all out crying. Sat beside crib, let her have my pinky at 1115ish...sucked for 5 minutes or so, and now she's asleep?!? I'll let you know how long she stays asleep, though.
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Yep, Woke at 1200...40 min sleep cycle, and couldn't extend. Woke really grumpy again :(
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Oh, bummer. It sounds like she's OT. Do you think she's not feeling well? Do you see anymore teeth coming?
I agree with Ali, PD with gradual withdrawal will likely work very well for your situation. Let me see if I can't answer your questions...
I'm assuming it is easier to do this for every nap/ bedtime, rather than just bedtime when going through the initial training, so no strolling or driving to nap, if possible?
Yes, consistency and frequency are going to be the best tools you have right now. Do your method for every nap and bedtime. However, I'm a firm believer that's it's much easier to sleep train a baby that's not entirely OT, so if you get a couple short naps, I think it's worth it to APOP a nap here and there either in the stroller or car. But, at BT and NW, stick strictly to your plan.
Should I be trying to leave the room when she's quiet, or wait until she's asleep before leaving?
At this point, you'll wait until she's all the way asleep before leaving. After a few days, you can start to get closer to the door and use your voice to settle her from there. After another few days, stand at the door and do the same. Eventually, you'll be outside the door and can just go in if she needs you.
Is it ok to still let her suck my pinky, if I want to eventually wean her from this? I don't actually mind it, for now, but eventually...
To be totally honest, I wouldn't. If you eventually want to wean her from this, you might as well do it now, esp since your DH is home to support you. You don't really want to replace one prop (the breast) with another (your pinky), because ultimately that's not going to get you anywhere. If she can't settle herself to sleep at the beginning of a sleep time, she can't do it in the middle of the night either.
What do I do if she doesn't end up napping within an hour or so of trying?
Do some quiet activity, really low key and try again in an hour or so. This is also the time where if you have to APOP somewhere to get some sleep into her, I'd do it.
Should I be in the room when she is fussing, but the crying isn't escalating?
Yes, if you're doing GW, you stay there until she's asleep. Don't make eye contact and if she's fussing don't say anything, but just be a presence in the room. She gets upset when you try to leave, right? So, there's no use in playing that game.
Should I be the one who does this or will it confuse her to have DH try as well?
No, certainly DH should also play a role in the sleep training. Tracy suggested parents trade off every two nights, so that one parent isn't always doing it and always tired. Also, it will help if he's able to settle her, so you can have a break in the future. The only 'rule' with this is that the parent that starts the sleep time, finishes the sleep time. So, he can't come in and 'rescue' you, if she's not going to sleep. That will confuse her and likely lengthen the whole process.
How do I prevent OT during this phase?
It will be hard to prevent it completely, but use the APOP naps as I've described. Try to stay as close to her normal routine as possible. Do early bedtimes when daytime sleep hasn't been enough. And, since she's still nursing well at night, I'd just continue with that for now rather than fighting a bunch of OT in the MOTN. Once she gets on track during the day, you can start to work on the NF/NW. Getting her the longest nights possible will help the most with OT.
One last thing... is there a reason she's still swaddled on the bottom? If it's for warmth, you can always use a sleeping bag. Otherwise, I think it might be best to remove that, as you don't want her to get stuck in it, if she's trying to stand up, etc. But, it's your choice, if you don't think there's a safety issue in it.
Good luck, hon. You can do it!
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I'm not sure where you are but here in London it is hot and so nappies are not very wet at all and even pees in the potty are small and yellow even with regular drinks. Also my ds2 is not keen on me holding him to nurse in the weather and isn't spending as long at the breast. I find he especially hates it when I have a bare arm which inevitably gets sweaty if his head lays on it to nurse. I find it helps to lay a muslin between our skins so it doesn't get sticky and sweaty. Just thought perhaps some of that may apply to you guys too.
Oh and I agree with everything Katie said in answer to your questions ;D if you need to AP then car or stroller are less disruptive than the type of AP where she is sucking to sleep as the nap is almost incidental to the ride rather than when she is fed or sucks pinkie itms?
Good luck.
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Wow, thank you for the detailed response, and encouragement. We're in Canada, and it is hot here, but I really think the nursing strike is from being startled when she bit me... She has a pretty good memory, and even when I am in a different room, not on the nursing pillow, and just show her my bare breast, she shakes her head "no" and tries to get away. My doctor suggested we stay in the air conditioning and try to keep her hydrated with whatever she'll take...she's eating watermelon, at least. has had another 50 ml of EBM since waking from nap 1 at noon.
I feel like she will never be "not OT" :( Even when I APOP in the stroller, we only get 30 min.
So for nap 2, I put her in the crib at 350, she fussed for 5 minutes, took my pinky (I didn't read your posts until just now) for 2 minutes, and fell fast asleep. None of the screaming like she did last night. Stayed asleep for 40 minutes....usually her nap 2 is only 30 minutes.
The swaddling of her bottom half is with a "swaddle me" bag...it has Velcro around the torso, and her legs are in a bag. I started using it when she was little to keep her arms in, and then swaddled her arms out...I kept using it as it keeps her legs from getting tangled in the crib, as I don't use bumper pads. She seems to like it.
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Ok...need some reassurance that eventually, she won't cry this long and hard!
Bath at 730, story, and in crib with bear after kisses with momma and daddy by 740.
Started off just rolling around crib, then pulled herself up, got back down etc, but started crying harder. I moved to a stool right beside her crib, and tried to comfort with my voice, but that didn't really help...again cried harder when she heard me. Even offered pinky a few times, and she pushed away. Did not pick up..did put her down a few times, and that made her MAD. Eventually, I did cave and let her have my pinky, which she sucked for 10 minutes before falling asleep. I did pull it out sooner than I usually do... I guess it's my version of Pantleys Gentle Removal?!? The whole process took 70 min... So asleep about 850...
Should I have started bedtime much earlier? She woke from nap 2 at 440ish, and I wasn't sure she had a long enough A to bed?
Should I be shortening A during the day too, if she's only getting 40 min naps?
Am I really messing things up by letting her suck my pinky at the end of all that fussing? I guess I'm just not sure how she will ever calm herself down to self soothe...it seems more like she would pass out from sheer exhaustion rather than learn to self soothe. :(
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And she just jolted awake crying hard at 915.
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Settled quickly with pinky at 915, but woke at 1140.
I thought, surely, she mut be hungry, and tried to nurse her. She got really worked up. Was pushing away from me, crying hard. At 1200, I was rocking her, and gave her some Advil, just in case. She doesn't have any other teething symptoms though. At any rate. I put her back into the crib, and let her fuss and cry. When she was just fussing, I just sat quietly. When she was crying hard, I tried to calm her by telling her "it's ok, you're just tired. Momma's here, go to sleep". I think the sound of my voice was making her more upset, Eventually, I was just quiet, and would try to let her suck my pinky to calm down, I know we discussed not doing that, as it's a habit I'll need to break later, but it was the only thing that calmed her down. She didn't fall back asleep until 120, and then woke and cried again at 125...I was still in there, so I pinkied her again. She's asleep now.
As I was watching her tonight, I could see her getting calm, but just not able to "turn the corner"and actually fall asleep. Heartbreaking and frustrating, for both of us! I just want to help her, as she is so tired, hence I've been doing the one thing I think will help (pinky) but is this making things worse?
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So after she fell asleep at 1:30am from her NW, I didn't hear from her until 5:30. I thought "she must be starving" so I tried to nurse her, and again, she refused! Got worked up, and finally calmed her down in the crib, with my pinky at 600, and she sucked for 30min or so... eyes closed but without falling asleep. Started to cry hard again despite the pinky at 630, so I gave her the bottle of BM that I pumped at 1:30 (about 150ml). Actually, DH held her while she downed the whole bottle, and I pumped another 100ml and put that into her bottle too. She drank all of it, and fell asleep in his arms. At about 715, he put her back in the crib, and she's been asleep since then (it's 9:10am now). I'm feeling pretty guilty for "starving" the poor girl.
Please give some guidance. What to do now? Naps are going to be off today, as I'm not sure I'll have time for 2 naps? Is this really progress, or have I really messed things up?
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(((Hugs))), hon. That's a really rough day and night. I think we might need to regroup here and go at this a bit more gradually. There's a lot going on with the nursing strike and sleep training that's putting stress on both of you. So, why don't we deal with one issue at a time?
I'm feeling pretty guilty for "starving" the poor girl.
First of all, I know it's really hard because you are her main source of nutrition still, but try not to feel guilty. You are offering her to nurse whenever appropriate and she is the one refusing. This is not something you have control over, you are not starving her. Have you posted on the BF board at all about the strike? I think you'd really get a lot of great support there. I can imagine it's frustrating and a bit emotionally draining for both of you. I think you're doing right to keep pumping when she refuses and feed her a bottle, she is getting what she needs.
As for the sleep training... since you are giving your pinky, I think it's going to be best to try to get her back on track before pushing her any farther. She's definitely OT at this point and that's one of the main reasons for all the struggles yesterday. Go through your winddown, place her in the crib, and give her your pinky. But, try to keep all the settling in the crib and not your arms. Hopefully, this will at least have broken the feed to sleep prop and once she's back on track, you can work on getting her to settle on her own in the crib. Does she have a lovey? I think this would be a good time to introduce one if not, because once you get to the next stage, that will then be familiar for her and hopefully help her to settle on her own. If only we can find something else for her to suck, then you should be able to break that habit easily. It doesn't need to be a pacifier (I wouldn't introduce one at this stage for sure), but is there a special toy or blanket she likes? My DD has/had a knit bunny that she sometimes would suck on his ear. My DS has a couple Taggies blankets (http://www.amazon.com/Taggies-9132-Colors-Blanket-Reflections/dp/B0051POK6Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1343224947&sr=8-1&keywords=taggies+blankets) that he sucks on along with his thumb.
Should I have started bedtime much earlier? She woke from nap 2 at 440ish, and I wasn't sure she had a long enough A to bed?
Should I be shortening A during the day too, if she's only getting 40 min naps?
These are two really big points during sleep training and any time, really. Yes, bedtime should have been moved much earlier. She only had 2x40 min naps all day, so the A time to bed does not need to be more than 2-2.5hr (max). I would have aimed to have her asleep by 7pm after a day like that. And yes, shorten the A time during the day too. My DS's morning A time is right around 3.5hr. He usually does ~1.5hr nap, sometimes less sometimes more. Every once in awhile because we're out or because it's just an off day, he'll only do 35-40min. After that, I pull the next A time in to only 2.5hr and he'll usually nap 1hr30min-1hr45min for a pm nap.
As for today, just do your best to get some decent sleep out of her. I'd go with her normal morning A time after whenever she wakes up and let her nap for as long as she will. You can then either do an early bedtime or sneak in a little CN (APOPd in the stroller or car) to get her to BT. And remember that tomorrow is another day!
More (((hugs))), the crying and sleeping will get better. It might be a longer road than you thought, but we'll stick with you. :-* :-*
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Thanks for the quick reply, and support. It's really appreciated.
She finally woke at 1015, happy to see me, and standing in her crib when I got there. Thank goodness. I would have been heartbroken if she was upset. I did not try to nurse her, as I didn't want to upset her, and I had just pumped at 930. Gave her the EBM, and she took about 40ml. But she has been playing happily so far. Diaper was not really wet, but could see some dark urine... To be expected, given that she hasn't had anything really overnight, I guess.
So, normal A was 3.5-3.75h....so I'll try for a nap around 145. We'll cut our planned excursion to the pool party.
As for a lovey, she has a bear that we give her just for the crib. She seems to like him well enough. She's pretty good at giving hugs to any of her stuffed animals :). Her favorite gorilla is too big for a lovey :). She does grab for the bear in the middle of the night, and this morning, as I was watching her on the monitor, she did cry out, roll over and grab for him before settling down again... And that was at 900, so she slept for a good hour or so afterwards.
Few questions in preparation for tonight. I guess I'll feed her as much as I can, and give her a bottle of EBM right before bath. Then book and cuddles before settling her in the crib. I'll let her have pinky if she needs/wants it but not pick her up or try to nurse...not that those were helping anyways! If (not when...I'm trying to stay positive:) ) she wakes in the middle of the night, I will pinky her back to sleep like I did last night? Or offer a bottle? I don't want to replace breast with bottle when NW... I want NW to stop, right? If its past 500am, is it ok to offer her a bottle in hopes she'll go back to sleep, and is waking out of hunger, Or do I just let her get up for the day?
I'm trying to anticipate the questions I'll have when I'm dead tired in the middle of the night, and typing in the dark on a little screen :)
Thanks again for your support. DH was pleasantly surprised to know that you have all been so helpful and supportive. He appreciates it too :)
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Ok, have I really screwed things up? I left the pool party early and in te 3 minutes it took to walk home, she seemed really sleepy. Quickly changed her, and gave her the bottle of EBM in the crib, and she fell asleep with it in her mouth. Now what ?!?! :(
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Now what ?!?!
Just let her sleep, she's obviously tired. I wouldn't leave the bottle in there with her though. I think one time probably woudn't be so bad, but I know you don't want milk (although it is BM) sitting/dripping onto her teeth for much elapsed time.
As for tonight, I think your plan sounds good. If she's had her normal amount of feeds for the day from the bottle, I would definitely try to settle her without feeding, but then yes, if it's around 4-6am, I'd feed her in the hopes of getting as much night sleep as possible for her. The ultimate goal is for the NW to stop, but while she's in a nursing strike and you're getting your day worked out, I'd still feed her at one. And she's pretty little right? So, having a feeding still is totally normal. Again, I don't know much about strikes, but if you think she's hungry before that point, I'd err on the side of feeding her rather than having her cry for such a long time only to feed her anyway, iykwim.
HTH! And, you're welcome for the support... that's what we're all about. :)
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Agreed :)
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Thanks! Full of resolve for tonight. I did pull the bottle after she fell asleep, and she didn't notice. Napped from 2-4pm! :) Woke up happy!
Praying for a good night. We have a house guest...a childless bachelor, but he's very understanding. Warned him that there may be some "noise" at night. :)
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Great nap!! Good luck for tonight! :)
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Update for the beginning of the night :)
Gave her a bottle before bath, and she only had 20ml of EBM.
Bath at 720, book, cuddles etc. and ind crib by 740. Worried that she would wake from hunger, so gave her the bottle in the crib, lights off, sound machine on, and she sucked back the rest of it(about 80ml) and was still sucking hard on the empty bottle. Due to timing of wake up and nap, she really only had 2 meals (solids) so I actually took her out of the crib to defrost some frozen breast milk. Im pretty sure if I left her in the room while I got it, she would start crying. She drank another 30 ml or so before giving me back the rest of the bottle. She was laying in the crib at this point. (8pm)
I moved to a chair farther from her crib, and she rolled around a bit, then pulled to stand, and started fussing louder. I moved to the stool beside her crib when she bonked her head on the slat(not hard, but still hurt, I think). I tried my"gentle" voice and told her she was going to bed. Told her "hugs for Theodore" (her bear) and she knows to reach both arms out to give him a hug...which makes it easier for me to lay her down as she wouldn't let go of the railing otherwise. Let her have my pinky while she hugged Theodore. She was asleep enough within 15 minutes for me to remove my pinky, and no hard crying! she's been asleep for 15 minutes so far, but I am so excited, I just had to record this and post. I'm going to get DH to read this, so he knows what we've been through :)
I know it's not ideal that she had my pinky, but am I being realistic to think that eventually, I can just let her have "hugs for Theodore" and no pinky?
If she wakes in the night, do you think Theodore will be enough to get her back to sleep?
So excited and happy there was no all out crying!
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Woohoo! It's morning. Only heard from her once, at 3am, of course.
It took me a few minutes to get to her as I went downstairs to grab a bottle of EBM "just I case." She was standing in the crib crying by the time I got there. Wanted nothing to do with Theodore when I tried to lay her down, so I picked her up and cuddled her for a minute or so,then put her back in the crib, even though she was crying. I showed her the bottle, and she shook her head "no" so i didnt force it on her. Put Theodore beside her, and got her to eventually take my pinky which calmed her down. She sucked for 15 minutes on my pinky, then turned away from me, hugged Theodore and fell asleep. I actually stayed there for 5-10 minutes, because I didn't think she was asleep!
Of course, I stayed up, and pumped until 330, so still a bit tired, but am really (pleasantly) surprised at how the night went, and that she didn't want any milk.
I bolted up at 720, looked at the monitor, and she was sitting in the crib, playing with Theodore. I took a few minutes to get milk etc before getting her, but I wanted to go in before she cried/called for me. She was cheery and happy to see me.
I still want her to nurse again, so we been spending some time in my bedroom casually letting her play with my breasts, and she didn't scream and cry, but did shake her head no. Then she spotted the bottle of EBM, and reached for it, so I gave it to her. She only drank 30ml or so, and then wanted to play. I guess she's really not hungry!
So she woke at 720... so I'll start nap 1 at 1100 or so.
Feeling so happy right now. I know it's not ideal that she sucks my pinky to sleep, but she doesn't settle well when she's worked up. I think the gradual withdrawal is the best choice for us :). Will try to pull the pinky earlier over the course of the next few weeks? Thanks for walking us through this.
I'm guessing the 3am wakeup is habitual, and we'll tackle that one eventually?
Any suggestions or tweaking you would suggest?
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Wow, what a great night! ;D
Sounds like you have a good plan with the gradual withdrawal. Just know that eventually there may be some crying, because she's so used to going to sleep that way. I know it doesn't seem like she will ever settle any other way, but rest assured she eventually will. It will be easier though, if she's not OT when you do that and you're both past the nursing strike. For now, I think it's worth it to keep on with the pinky and GW.
The 3am waking could be habiutual. I'd see how you go the next week or so keeping her on her routine and if she's still waking at 3 each night, then you can try w2s to see if you can't get her past that.
Good luck and keep us posted! :)
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Thanks! She's asleep for nap 1. Took her to her room at 1100, cuddled, lay her in the crib with bottle, and she drank maybe 50ml, and pushed it away. Stood and babbled for a bit. I gave her her bear, and she didn't want much to do with him. Eventually, got her to lay back down with the bear and pinky. She sucked hard for about 10 minutes, and is asleep at 1130! Let's see when she wakes. Definitely a happier baby when not OT. Didn't even fuss too much when our house guest played a bit with her during breakfast. She doesn't really like "strangers" too close to her.
Let's see how long this nap lasts!
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Hmmm. she woke at noon, and I could not extend. Is that OT or UT?
Will try for nap 2 at 300. In the crib, if its still raining, or might try to stroller her if the rain stops.
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My gut says OT, but my gut isn't always right. :-\ Are you usually able to extend? I'd do a nap more like 2:30 than 3pm, if you get this in time. She'll definitely be OT by 3pm after a 30min morning nap.
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Well, took her upstairs at 300, fell asleep with pinky by 325... We'll see!
Thanks!
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Woke at 400. :(
OT, I'm assuming.
Super early bedtime? Like 630?
Should I be reducing morning A too?
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Yes OT I think too. I would put in cot at 6.30 and hope for her to be asleep by 7 at the latest.
I would reduce your morning A time a tad with an aim of having her asleep by 4hrs max.
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Agreed. :) Because of the extra settle time, she went over 4hr today when she's usually been doing 3.5-3.75. I'd do the same for BT, 6:30/7pm (at the very latest).
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So I had her in the crib by 650, and she didn't fall asleep until 800. :(
She was mostly happy. I sat beside her crib, and she kept pulling herself up to stand. I waited until she was fully standing, and then I'd lay her back down and say its time to go to sleep. She rolled around a lot, then I would try to let her have my pinky, and she suck for a bit, them spit it out or turn and pill herself back up. We did this for 50 minutes or so. She didn't seem super upset when I laid her back down. She practiced her clapping, and blinking....all the new tricks she's learned recently. I avoided eye contact and engaging her, even though the clapping was really cute. Finally, settle enough, and sucked my pinky for a good 10 minutes and fell asleep at 800. Unfortunately her, legs were between the slats, and 10 minutes later when she rolled over, she woke up and cried out. I rushed in, re-pinkyed her for 5 minutes, and she's back asleep, for now.
Will keep you posted on how the night goes.
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Woke at 930... Fussing turned into louder crying out. Went in at 940, laid her back down...pinky until 950.
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Fussed again at midnight, Went in at 1205, pinky until 1215.
Am I doing the right thing here and not letting her get so worked up that she's awake for an hour? Or am I making her more dependent on me, and harder to break pinky later?
I worry that the "babbling happily before falling asleep" will turn into crying uncontrollably for hours, and more difficult to settle at the beginning f the night....but if it means that she will stay asleep until morning....or am I being unrealistic? I just can't picture her going from playing happily in crib to asleep by herself. :(
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Only lay her back down if she is crying. Otherwise it is best to leave her to do it herself. If my ds2 is just fussing bit not too upset I just tell him to lie down and go to sleep and eventually he will. It is often sudden and he will be babbling one minute and have his eyes closed the next.
I think your BT was too late. You only gave her 10 mins to fall asleep but she has been taking much longer so I stick with my advice in last post and would have had her in bed by 6.30 so she had time to settle before she got OT
I do think you will need to stop the pinky before she stops looking for it at night. At the moment you seem to have just replaced one prop with another. It's a step in the right direction but not enough for her not to need you when she wakes at night. Have you tried offering her own hand for her to suck? She may need you to hold it in for her at first but should then be able to do it to self settle without you
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If my ds2 is just fussing bit not too upset I just tell him to lie down and go to sleep and eventually he will. It is often sudden and he will be babbling one minute and have his eyes closed the next.
Ha, we get this too. It makes me giggle almost every time. :)
I agree with Ali, again. The NW were OT, because BT got too late. The babbling and then hard crying are classic OT signs. So, while I understand you want to get her to sleep as fast as possible, if she gets used to that while OT, she'll start wanting it more and more even when not. I'll be totally honest and say, I often go in quickly at night when I know my DS is OT and try to get him back ASAP, even if I have to hold him. But, he's an independent sleeper at all other times, so it hasn't been much of an issue.
I think your best bet is to get her back on routine as much as possible, really watching the A times and pulling back quite a bit when she short naps. Then, start working on pulling the pinky.
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She woke at 630, but wasn't crying out or anything. In fact, she was standing in her crib, waving etc. Is this EW? I'm ok with 630, but it is earlier than she has been.
Picked her up and gave snuggles and then she nursed this morning!!! For 10 minutes on each side. I was really low key...and offered her breast, and she didn't fuss at all. So happy!
Ate lots for breakfast at 830.
Will try for nap 1 around 1000.
Yes, I agree that I've replaced nursing with pinky. Will try to teach her how to suck her own hand during the day...hopefully she can find it at night? Or is that just wishful thinking?
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Yay for nursing again! ;D
Yes, that's an EW, but you know what, they happen now and again and it's best just to roll with it. I would try to have her sleeping by 10-10:15am though, not just starting the process then, iyswim.
Will try to teach her how to suck her own hand during the day...hopefully she can find it at night? Or is that just wishful thinking?
No, I think it's a really good idea. 10mo olds can find their own pacis at night to replug them, they can certainly find their own hands. You might have to guide it to her for a few nights, but she should catch on pretty quick if she indeed takes to it as a replacement.
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Ok... Asleep in crib at 1005. She was pretty drowsy when I laid her down. Instead of trying to nurse, or give her a bottle, I rocked her a bit and the dark while reciting good night moon, and then laid her down. When she stood up, I waited until she cried out before I laid her back down and said "time to sleep."
Let her suck pinky for 5 minutes or so, and pulled it out sooner than I would have in the past....she was still sucking a bit, but not hard. Whole process took about 12 minutes.
I'll post again when she wakes.
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Woke from nap 1 at 1130 :)
Will try nap 2 at 3 pm, I guess?m
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Sounds good. If she looks like she's just not going to make it 2:30/45 would be ok too.
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Sounds good and so glad she nursed ;D
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Took her upstairs for diaper change etc at 245, had sippy cup of EBM for a few minutes, pulled up and walked around crib until 257, then bumped her head and the way down, so I laid her back, and let her have pinky. Asleep at 303. Woke at 337 :(
What to do for bedtime? Still not sure if that was OT or UT or just nap 2 is going to be short?
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I would go with a 6.30 BT.
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I tried for 630 BT, but was only just putting her in crib at 630 :(
She rolled around and fussed etc for a long time. Finally sucked pinky long enough to fall asleep by 740. :(
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Oh dear. I would have tried taking her up 20-30mins before I wanted her asleep.
FX for a good night.
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Have I really screwed things up?
So, after in bed asleep and finally asleep at 740, she woke at 940. I was a really loud mantra type cry, but I was afraid it would escalate, so I went in and pinky-ed her. She was asleep again at 950.
I watched her fuss and roll over a few times throughout the night (and silly me, stayed up until almost 1am, cleaning as we are having overnight house guests again).
At 330, she woke, and I let her fuss for 5 minutes. At 335, I went in and let her suck my pinky. Wasn't really upset, just awake, and would stop sucking for a minute or so, then suck hard again. Stood up a few times, and I laid her back down with a "it's time to go to sleep." And she'd suck hard again for a few minutes. This lasted until 430, when I nursed her as I was afraid she was hungry. Before bed, I had tried to give her a bottle instead of nursing as I didn't want to let her fall asleep at the breast, but she really only had 10ml or so. At 440, she wasn't actively feeding anymore, just had my nipple in my mouth and more comfort sucking, so I took her off, and put her back in crib. Pinky for 10 minutes, and she spit out my pinky, turned over and has been asleep ever since. It's 815, and she's still asleep. I even vacuumed downstairs at 745, as I wasn't sure what time our guests are arriving.
Questions:
Should I have waited at 940? She was fussing for a few minutes and I wasn't sure if she'd settle, but she did at other times later in the evening, although, those times, she cried out just once or twice, or rolled around for less than 30 seconds.
Did I really mess things up by feeding at 430? I was quite tired, and I thought it had been a long time since she had anything substantial to eat. She had dinner at 600pm... that's when I should have been getting her ready for bed though :(
As I was sitting in there at 4am, I was thinking about how I can help her to self soothe. Pantley's Gentle Removal sounds good, and I will try to teach her to put her fingers or thumb in her mouth during the day. Maybe she'll suck them at night?
And when I lay her down to sleep/nap, I won't give her my pinky for at least the first 10 minutes or so of the settling? Even if she cries out loud? If I let her have it later, will this just teach her to stay awake until she can have it? Do I just decide one day that she gets no pinky ever again?
How long should I budget for her to be in the crib before she falls asleep if she's going to do it on her own, based on her track record... It's taken almost an hour to settle at night, but I guess that's because she's OT For naps that have been time right, it seems to be much shorter? Except that I am still giving her pinky...
And it's 830 now, and she's still asleep... should I be waking her?!? I'm assuming the 430 feed means that she's not hungry and waking out of hunger. Now I just need to make sure she gets a good nursing right before bed to prevent that 330, up for an hour hunger, right?
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And she just woke at 840, nursed about 15 minutes, so still hungry in am.
Nap at 1215, or is that too soon after a 13 hour night...but she was up for an in the middle...
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Nap 1 was 1217-130. Maybe will try a stroller ride at 500? If no nap, then aim to have in crib asleep by 630... so bath etc starts at 600?
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Personally if she doesn't do a second nap I would aim to have her asleep by 6. Maybe try for a 20-30 min stroller nap at 4.30?
Please relax hun. Nothing you can do with regards to getting her to sleep is going to mess her up forever. Giving her the pinky just means you haven't started teaching her to set soothe *yet* I would pick the first nap of the day tomorrow and offer her her own fingers/hand to suck. I wouldn't make her wait if you are going to give her the pinky because it will make it harder to wean it when the time comes as she will remember it came in the end last time.
If she is hungry in the night then of course you must feed her. I would BF her at BT if she won't take a bottle rather than put her to bed without. You can always wake her if she starts dropping off.
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Thanks :) Things always feel worse and much more daunting at 4am!
DH tells me to relax all the time :). He's very supportive with sleep routine etc, but knows that I stress about this kind of thing. In my professional life, I'm used to having (or at least feeling like I have) more control, and predictability in terms of cause and effect, so having a "real live baby" who changes things up so much and has her own little personality :)
I guess I'm just really wanting this to work, as I feel like everybody i know who has a baby that "sleeps through the night" has eventually let their baby cry it out. As much as I want a good nights sleep, I couldn't let her just cry if I felt like she needed me. I do recognize, however, that I am rushing in too soon in many instances, and that much of the nursing or pinky to sleep that I've been doing is because it's easy for me...at least for now. Won't be so easy when I go back to work.
The rest of our day went like this....went for a stroller ride at 430... Started to look a bit drowsy on the ride, but returned at 540, wide awake. Rushed through dinner and bath, nursing by 630... Fell asleep on my breast and in crib at 650. I did try to jostle her a bit before putting in the crib, but I didn't try too hard....it still feels weird to wake a sleeping baby :)
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Yeah I know what you mean. Now my ds2 goes in the cot awake the majority of the time I don't worry about the odd feed to sleep.
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I feel like I'm constantly making excuses for DD....it's teething..it's a growth spurt...its separation anxiety...we had an outing and messed up naps....bedtime was too late due to family dinner....we have houseguests and shes's overstimulated....shes on a nursing strike...
Our excuse tonight she's starting to stand and walk independently, and that's messing up her sleep.... Although I must admit, I was super excited to see it. And so glad DH was home to see it!
It's 8pm, and we've been trying for an hour to fall asleep, and still nothing. She's babbling away, pulling to stand,Rolling around, clapping for herself, hugging her bear...
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Yes, there's always something, isn't there?!? Pulling up to stand is my least favorite, I think. :-\ :P It was never an issue with my DD, but was a huge deal for DS. But, the thing is once you're consistent with a method (a BW-friendly one, that is ;)), it will work through all those things. That's the beauty of it. She's doing all this not sleeping stuff and will continue to do so, because she's never learned to go to sleep on her own. Not to say that my kids don't. They still have times of rolling around doing all that funny stuff that's not so funny at the time, but generally I pop them into bed and they go to sleep.
You certainly don't have to push her to independent sleep if you're not ready right now. It really won't work if you're not ready anyway. But, I do believe it will help in the long run. That's why I'm here, after all. :)
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I think the middle of last night was definitely teething...again. After falling asleep at 830, she woke briefly at 900, at 100 and 1100... And was either able to settle herself or pinky for 2-5 minutes. Then at midnight, woke and was inconsolable! Gave Advil at 1230, and still cried hard even though in our arms. Finally settled at 130, and slept through until 7am. Nursed :) at 700, and asleep for nap 1 at 1045.
Once our houseguests leave at the end of the week, I will try to stop the pinky...I think. dH will be on last week of vacation, and I feel it's "now or never"...I know I shouldn't put that kind of pressure on me or her...but it's in my nature to want to see results. Unfortunately, the crying and fatigue gets me every time!
So, just to recap...when I do "stop the pinky". I go through the bedtime routine, put her in the crib, and stay in room with her, try to get her to take own hand (I've noticed that since showing her how to out her fingers in her mouth, she tends to do this more often in the middle of the night...or, suck on her arm. Even if she cries hard, i dont give her pinky? Or let her suck until she calms down, and then pull before she falls asleep? Ive been trying to do that now for naps and bedtime... Pull pinky when she's still sucking a bit...and pull sooner and sooner with each night.
It's this whole falling asleep without anything that I'm sceptical about. Even in the car, or on a stroller ride, she seems tomhavevlots of trouble going from awake to asleep. She usually cries out a couple of times, and takes 20 minutes or so to fall asleep. And I can't always count on it working.
The good thing about the nursing strike last week is that we've mostly stopped middle of the night nursing. I am confident now that she doesn't need it for food. And now that she's nursing and taking a bottle, it's easier to make that decision in the MOTN.
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Yes, sounds like discomfort last night. :(
...I think. dH will be on last week of vacation, and I feel it's "now or never"...I know I shouldn't put that kind of pressure on me or her...but it's in my nature to want to see results. Unfortunately, the crying and fatigue gets me every time!
I just want to comment on this statement. I know it's a bit nerve wracking, but you're right, there's no need to put pressure on either of you. You just need to look at it as teaching her a new skill. Like putting on clothes or tying a shoe, there are likely tears and frustration in all new skills, but if you keep at it, they do learn. Will it be fun? No, the first few times won't, but you just have to be committed and consistent. Prepare yourself and know that there will be crying and you'll both be tired, but that's what makes doing it while your DH is home a plus, because you'll be able to nap and get some rest as well.
It's this whole falling asleep without anything that I'm sceptical about. Even in the car, or on a stroller ride, she seems tomhavevlots of trouble going from awake to asleep. She usually cries out a couple of times, and takes 20 minutes or so to fall asleep. And I can't always count on it working.
Yes, but that's because she doesn't have the skills to do it. It would be like throwing someone into a pool to swim that had always had help before. It would take them awhile to figure out how to do it. I'm not trying to be facetious here, but just want you to know that she can do it if you teach her.
I go through the bedtime routine, put her in the crib, and stay in room with her, try to get her to take own hand (I've noticed that since showing her how to out her fingers in her mouth, she tends to do this more often in the middle of the night...or, suck on her arm. Even if she cries hard, i dont give her pinky? Or let her suck until she calms down, and then pull before she falls asleep? Ive been trying to do that now for naps and bedtime... Pull pinky when she's still sucking a bit...and pull sooner and sooner with each night.
If it were me, I'd just stop the pinky all together. The first few times will definitely be tough, but the results will be quicker. Also, I think if you want her to find a new way to soothe herself, I'm not sure giving her the pinky then pulling it sooner will do that. But, ultimately it's up to you, if you're more confident in gradually removing the pinky then do that. You just have to eventually stop it and not keep going back to it, because that will be really tempting when it gets tough.
The only caution I have is that if she has a tooth actively cutting, you may want to wait until the worst of it is over. I know you don't need another excuse, but each time I've tried to stop a prop while my kids have been 'actively' teething it hasn't gone very well, and they've previously been independent sleepers.
I know it's daunting, but you really can do this. Beleive that she can fall asleep on her own, and stay consistent and committed. :)
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Thanks :)
Just Advil'd my little girl, and she's still fussing away. Hoping this tooth will pop before next week.
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Question about our EASY today:
Recap last night..finally asleep at 830, brief waking at 900, 1000 and 1100...and then up from 1200-130am
Wake at 700
Nap 1 1030-1200
Nap 2 320-400
In crib at 715... But still wide awake.
Should I have moved BT earlier still?
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I would have tried for BT (asleep by) 7pm.
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Yes, I think earlier BT would have been better, as I got an EW at 600.
Her night was OK, though. Finally fell asleep at 815ish, and woke briefly at 1230 and resettled with pinky by 1240. Then nothing until 600. In retrospect, I should have left her to see if she'd fall back asleep on her own as she wasn't all out crying, just awake. Again, out of habit, I rushed in, thinking if I nurse her, she might go back to sleep? She didn't. But DH got up and played with her.
DD doesn't really have early tired signs...just goes from OK to OT very quickly, so I need to watch the clock with her, and adjust accordingly with EW and short naps, I think. I always seem to underestimate how long it will take for her to fall asleep, and it feels odd to me to have such a short A before bed. Hard to fit in dinner, and any sort of quality time with daddy (it's fine while he's on vacation, but when work starts again, he'll just be getting home when she's having her bath!)
In crib asleep at 945 for nap 1.
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Yes unfortunately that is just the way it is for the parent who works. My DH does the bath and BT for my older one and then has to make up for it at the weekend.
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I always seem to underestimate how long it will take for her to fall asleep, and it feels odd to me to have such a short A before bed.
Yes, but she hasn't had a full nap, so the A needs to be shorter, iyswim.
And, also agreeing with Ali. It is hard when bedtime doesn't offer a lot of extra play time after work, but pretty typical if you want your child to get a good night's sleep. I know lots of dads who do bath and stories before bed as that's they're special time together.
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Argh. All set to get her in bath at 615, and something always comes up to delay. Can't seem to catch a break this week!
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Hi again. I'm not sure how to tweak our routine to get longer naps,,or if she's just OT, and we're stuck?
Yesterday, woke at 640 (after finally falling asleep at 740, and waking at 1220-100)
Nap1 1030-1145, nap2 315-340 (in the car) and in bed by 630, but not asleep until 720. Woke overnight 1240-120) and up for the day at 6am. She seemed tired at 600, and I was hoping that she would nurse back to sleep for another hour or so...and I didn't want her to wake our houseguests.
Just try super early BT? I can't count on nap 2 being any longer than 30 minutes. I always try to do nap 1 at home. DD is 11 months old now, just learned to stand independently. Working on teaching her to suck her an hand, but still prefers my pinky :(
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Yes, I probably would have aimed for a 3hr A time to bed after a 25min nap but since she consistently takes a long time to settle I would probably have had her in bed by 6ish.
Tbh though I think your main problem is that she cannot self soothe herself to sleep because she is dependent on the pinky. If it were me I would be tackling that.
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Yeah, I think she's getting OT and would do an early BT. Last night you had her in bed at 6:30, but I think I would've tried to have her sleeping by then. So, in bed by 6-6:15pm.
Posting same time as Ali. Agreed.
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Ok. One more night until our visitors leave. Went to the zoo with them after w ole from nap 1 945-1100. Tried for nap in car, but cried the whole way home instead. It's 3 pm now. Nursing, and hoping she'll sleep a bit.
So tomorrow night, I'll aim for a calm day, and early bedtime, and then instead of pinky...if she doesn't take her own hand, I just use my voice to try and soothe her? Give her the bear? Anything but let her have pinky?
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Argh. No nap 2 at all today. She was biting my pinky pretty hard today... maybe teething too?
So along the lines above, in preparation for pulling the pinky cold turkey:
What other soothing methods have worked for you?
I'm pretty sure she'll tire herself out with crying?
I should stay in the room with her for now until she's fast asleep?
And what can I do during this "learning period" to make it easier for her during the day?
I should do the same thing for all naps and bedtime?
And be prepared for very short/no naps if it takes her a while to learn?
And how long would you try for a nap before giving in?
Same thing for middle of the night, right?
We don't really have a go-to APOP that will get her to sleep except nursing and the pinky :( As evidenced by today... driving in the car or stroller, even when she's tired doesn't seem to work.
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So ast night, I had her in crib, asleep by 615, as she was up at 6, nap 1 945-1100, and no np 2 as I was hoping she would nap in car on the way from the zoo, Even though she was asleep by 615, she woke at 640, and I couldn't get her back to sleep until 740. Woke at 130am, at which point I ended up nursing her back to sleep so not to disturb the guests, and then up for the day at 520! DH thinks that the super early BT contributed to EW?
Doing everything I can tonight to get a good nights rest, so can tackle our pinky issue tomorrow. But she's still wide awake in her crib right now, and it's 715. :(
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No, I I would have thought it was OT from the massive 7hr A time she ended up having before BT due to skipping the second nap that made her sleep restlessly and wake early.
Btw I would not call 6.15 a *super* early BT, in fact I would have gone even earlier ;)
Good luck tonight.
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So tomorrow night, I'll aim for a calm day, and early bedtime, and then instead of pinky...if she doesn't take her own hand, I just use my voice to try and soothe her? Give her the bear? Anything but let her have pinky?
She was biting my pinky pretty hard today... maybe teething too?
So along the lines above, in preparation for pulling the pinky cold turkey:
What other soothing methods have worked for you?
I'm pretty sure she'll tire herself out with crying?
I should stay in the room with her for now until she's fast asleep?
And what can I do during this "learning period" to make it easier for her during the day?
I should do the same thing for all naps and bedtime?
And be prepared for very short/no naps if it takes her a while to learn?
And how long would you try for a nap before giving in?
Same thing for middle of the night, right?
We don't really have a go-to APOP that will get her to sleep except nursing and the pinky As evidenced by today... driving in the car or stroller, even when she's tired doesn't seem to work.
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In the sleep training period I would try to avoid AP as you don't want to go through all this only to replace one prop with another.
If you think she is teething then I would be sure to give her pain meds before BT or it won't work if she is in discomfort.
I would do pup (well pd at this age) with lots of cforting in the cot in between PDs if she stays down long enough. My ds2 liked a firm hand on his back or bottom (front/side sleeper since 8mo) and for me to quietly repeat our sleepy phrase if he cried. I would say something like "it's just sleepy time, lie down and go to sleep now, mummy's here" but you can of course say whatever works for you. After a while he was happy with me just sitting by and using my voice.
Some LOs like to be rubbed on their back, belly, head or a limb. Quietly singing a lullaby can help too. Or some still like good old shh pat. You'll have to experiments and see what seems to work best for your DD. But be aware that no method will work instantaneously and she will cry in protest at not having the pinky.
Yes for now I would stay with her until she is asleep. You can gradually leave the room over the coming days/weeks.
To make it easier I would try to arrange your activities around her naps so you can be home for a wind down at the right time and not let her get OT or overstimulated.
Yes I would do the same for all naps and BT. If she short naps and you cannot extend then you can just get her up and keep the next A time a little shorter as she will be tired sooner.
For naps I would do 45mins and then if she doesn't look close I would get her up and take her out of the room, feed her if she is hungry but don't let her fall asleep on the breast, do a short A time or just a nappy change or similar and then try again. For BT though I would keep going until she is asleep as presumably you'll have just fed her and she won't be hungry for a good couple hours. Even if she only sleep 10mins and then wakes and you have to feed her it is important that you don't just feed her to sleep after hours of sleep training or it will reinforce the crying for next time and she won't be learning anything.
If she normally feeds a couple times overnight then you can either do the pd again or feed if you think she is genuinely hungry but I wouldn't just feed her every time she wakes to get her back to sleep.
Good luck! :)
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A few more questions....
If she's NOT crying, but is just pulling up, do I lay her back down, or let her do it herself?
How do I handle all the EW and OT?
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I think we might be off to a rough start, as she woke today at 630, fell asleep nursing at 10 for 50 minutes, and did not take ANY nap 2 at all. Was practically falling asleep,at dinner, so rushed through it, and bath and bedtime routine. Now she is Wired and wide awake in the crib at 620 still :(
She's not crying yet, so I haven't tried any PD or anything. Feeling a bit like I should give in without trying tonight and wait until we can have a fresh start, but also know that that may NEVER happen, so I guess we're starting tonight. Wish me luck!
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Well, just to let you know, I've chickened out of starting tonight. I didn't think it was fair to DD to start, as she had only one, short nap today.
Those are just my mommy instincts kicking in, I guess. What's another night of pinky and nursing? :(
What are you thoughts on moving her to one nap? The thought occurred to me, as she's only had one nap the past two days, and even though I tried (pinky/nursing) for nap 2 she just didn't even seem tired. I was hoping that by having the nap a bit later (like it was yesterday 1120-1250) instead of earlier (10-1050 today) she might have a longer nap, and then early bedtime? She did start her day at 730 on Sunday, instead of 630, like she did today, though. I dunno. I'm grasping at straws here. My other thought was that if she was just doing one nap, PUPD might seem less daunting to me, if I "only" had to do it for one nap and bedtime, instead of trying for two naps, and then not even getting a second nap!
Feeling like a failure for not even trying, but so thankful the DH is being supportive.
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Hi
I've been following your post just out of interest (our issues are completely different). Lol fwiw I think you should follow your mummy's instinct if thats genuinely what it is. If you're just procrastinating, then bite the bullet and wean the pinky- what do you have to lose? She's not sleeping well as it is so the longer you leave it I think the harder it'll be for both of you to wean later. If you do it at least you'll know you've done whatever you could. I imagine it's like weaning the dummy you just have to be persistent and consistent.
Sorry if that's a bit harsh but hopefully it'll give you encouragement to just try for a few weeks :)
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I think you could move to one nap but if she is doing 1.5hrs or less then she'll probably still be OT at BT and find it hard to settle. You may also find if you push the morning A time too far she will short nap due to OT and then she will be even less likely to take a second nap if she has woken even later than usual.
You will probably find that once she learns to self-soothe she may well take 2 naps again. Right now she has to be very tired before she can fall asleep nursing by accident rather than just going to bed and putting herself asleep deliberately.
No worries for choosing to start tomorrow but do be aware that she *will* get OT at the beginning from resisting the new way of going to sleep and the only way to get past that will be to remain consistent with the new method.
Good luck :)
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Well, I'm counting tonight as a success, even if I didn't really "get with the program"
Last night, DD finally fell asleep at 640, and was restless (I pinky-ed her at 800 and 900) and nursed her 140-200, and at 500-510.
She woke for the day at 710. I had planned on trying to switch to one nap, and not start PUPD until she was established (which I know could take weeks). But you were right in that when I put her down to nap at 11:10, she woke again at 1140, and I couldn't extend.
She looked tired during lunch so, I took her back up at 120 to try for another nap, and put her in the crib. She basically rolled around, pulled up to stand and played in her crib with the room lights off and sound machine on... quietly and calmly until 200. I didn't try to pinky or nurse her. At 200, she didn't look close to falling asleep, so I took her downstairs. She played, had a snack at 300, and we tried for another nap at 330. She eventually fell asleep with pinky 350-440.
Had dinner at 600, and bath at 700. Was in the crib at 730 and I let her roll around for a while, until she got a little fussy, and I was prepared to pinky her again. She took it for about 5 minutes, and then rolled away. Hugged her bear for a while, did a bit of whining and buried her head in the mattress. And fell asleep. Without actually having my pinky in her mouth for the last 5 minutes or so before drifting off at 800 And without crying at all. I'm saying prayers of thanks for small successes. I know this "doesn't count" as she did take my pinky, but this gives me a lot of encouragement to keep trying.
I'll do my best to not rush in tonight if she wakes, and see if she can get herself back to sleep.
And tomorrow, I'll try for two naps again. Just not sure how much morning A time to give her, as we had been doing 3.5-4.
So glad that DH is being so patient with me and my indecisiveness and stressing over DD's sleep. And really glad that I listened to my mommy instincts as I found a new tooth popped through overnight last night.
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It's great that she fell asleep without the pinky in her mouth. that is the first step in the gentle removal plan to have the LO fall asleep without the prop even though they have had it for a bit to help calm them. If you can get the pinky out before she drops off that is definitely a step in the right direction.
Yay for the new tooth! :b
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Hooray! She slept very well until I heard her stir at 400, so I gave her a 8 minute dream feed as she is used to eating overnight. She slepy until 650, and woke up happy. She was standing, playing with her bear when I got her this morning.
Will try for nap1 starting between 1030 and 110.
Feeling very encouraged!
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What a great night :)
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Yes, and hoping tonight goes well.
Not sure what to do though, about naps. Today, she woke at 650, so I took her up to crib at 1030, but she just played and babbled etc until 1117, and woke from nap 1 at 1200. I took her up to her crib at 330 for nap 2, but she didn't fall asleep until 420. Not sure when she'll wake, but if she's not up by 500, she might not be tired for bedtime. Do you think that nap 1 was OT and therefore short, or is she getting ready for one nap and we're in that awkward phase? She didn't really seem tired when I brought her up to her crib for either nap, but she really just practiced standing, clapping, babbling, hugging, rolling etc for 40-50 minutes, with a bit of pinky-ing in there in hoes that she would drift off. In fact, I drifted off a few times in there....it's dark, the "ocean waves" on the sound machine lulled me to sleep. Maybe, I'm just more tired than she is?!? :)
Any suggestions re:tweaking the A times etc would be appreciated.
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It's hard to say if she was OT. The A time wasn't that long so I would be surprised if she was OT. More likely UT I would have thought unless you thinks he was already still tired when she woke for the day. Was she happy when she woke? Did you try to resettle her when she woke at 12?
If she doesn't seem tired at the time you are thinking to put her down for a nap then I would let her play another 15mins and reassess. You may need to go on sleep cues for a bit to work out what she likes.
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Well, it's been a while since I've posted, and just wanted to give an update, and share our experiences so far.
DD is 11.5 months old now, and started walking independently in the last week! Which means that when she stands in the crib, she can walk around very easily now.
I've found that unless she falls asleep nursing, it takes 40 minutes of rolling around and fussing and pinky-ing before falling asleep for either nap 1 or 2, or bedtime. I do stay in the room with her the whole time, but am thinking I will try to leave, as she doesn't really want my pinky until the "very end" when she sucks for 3-5 minutes right before drifting off.
Yesterday's EASY:
woke 600 (I consider this EW, as she didn't fall asleep until 840 the night before, and had NW at 100 and 330)
nap 1 945-1115
nap 2 (tried at 3:00... gave up at 3:30, tried again at 4:00) napped 400-500
BT (bath at 730, in crib by 800, asleep at 840... pinky at the very end)
not a peep from her all night until 320, nursed both sides 320-340.
Woke for the day, happy at 650am
had her in the crib for nap 1 by 1020, but didn't fall asleep until 1050.
So it's sort-of working. Suggestions? Tweaks? When she's just fussing, she doesn't want the pinky, and actually gets more upset if I try to put it in her mouth. It's not untill she's actually crying hard right before drifiting off, that she will suck for a bit then fall asleep.
Still need to figure out how to stop the overnight nursing too.
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I think she may be getting a tad too much day sleep. I would cap that second nap at 30mins so she is ready for sleep 3hrs after that nap. My ds2 would want a 4hr A time after a 1hr nap so she probably just wasn't tired.
The onlyther suggestion I have is what I have said before and that is to wean the pinky when you are ready to do that
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Thanks!
So today, woke at 650, nap 1 (had her in crib at 1020, but actually slept 10:50-12:15) and nap 2 (4:00-4:30) (nursed her at 345, fell asleep on the nursing pillow by 4:00 so put her in the crib).
Started bath at 715, bedtime routine, nursed and in the crib by 740. Rolled around, stood up, pinky-ed etc. and finally fell asleep at 830. She just doesn't really seem tired at when I take her up to bath/bedtime routine, even though nap 2 was 30min.
When she's just standing up and walking around the crib but not crying or anything, should I be laying her back down and telling her it's time to sleep, or just let her do her thing? I almost feel like she'd fall asleep faster if she cried hard to burn off some energy! :( Maybe that's a good reason to take away the pinky!
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The standing and walking around the cot could be developmental and she is just practising her new skill. If she is doing that and not crying then I would just leave her to it and only go back to her if she cries for you.
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Ok, will try to leave her to do her thing if she's not crying for me.
She had a rough night of teething last night. Thank goodness for Advil. It takes 20 minutes to work, but sure does help. Woke at 720 this morning, but has been pretty upset with the teething.
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Just catching up after being away last week. Ali's been giving you great advice, of course. :)
I wonder if you're not trying to out her down a bit too late for bedtime and she's already past her sleep window. I would try to have her down 10-15 prior to the 3hr A after a short nap, so hopefully she's asleep by 3hr. 3hr after 30min seems to be max for my DS, he actually does better at about 2.5. But, I do think the walking milestone and her inability to self-soothe are the biggest factors in why it's taking so long to settle.
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Thanks ladies. I do appreciate the support!
Today, she woke at 720, nap 1 1030-1140, nap 2 330-430, in crib at 730, and finally asleep at 835. For most of that hour, she just walked around the crib. In fact, I fell asleep in the chair for much of it. When I jolted up, and looked up, she was just standing at the edge of the crib, looking at me. Finally, around 830, she fussed enough that I went to her, laid her down, she sucked my pinky for 5 minutes, and promptly fell asleep.
I let her have the longer nap 2 as nap 1 was short. And I started nap 1 earlier than I would have normally, but she was up for a bit in the middle of the night before crying hard 'cause of the teeth, and looked tired on the car ride home from the store, so I rushed her up to nurse and nap. Could nap 1 be short because UT? She usually has 3.5-3.75 A in morning? We went for a stroller ride after nap 2, and before dinner, and got home ~600. She looked a little out of it at 600, but DH fed dinner at 630 and bath at 715. She's a slow eater... and she's small, so I guess I try to get as many calories into her as possible. Advil'd her before nap 1 and before bath, in hopes that will give us better sleep.
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Could nap 1 be short because UT?
Yes, it was likely UT. I don't usually pull in that first A time unless it was a terrible night and he's just not going to make it. It does seem like you have better success with Nap 2 if Nap 1 is shorter. Do you think it would be helpful to switch to a shorter am nap and longer pm nap? I did this with DS a few weeks ago, because the other way just wasn't working well for us anymore. You could do 30-45 min in the morning and then a proper nap about 3 hr later. Just something to think about.
If she's a slow eater and you want to get as much into her as possible, I'd start dinner earlier and just let her eat. Then, you won't need to feel rushed.
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And it's worth bearing in mind that she will likely need a longer A time. After a 1hr nap than after a 30 mins. With my ds2 it would be about 4hrs after a long nap and 3hrs after a short nap so a big difference. And like Katie mentioned when I say 3hrs that is from eyes open to eyes closed including time for settling in the cot not going in the cot at that point.
But the walking and teeth aren't helping of course so you may have to just ride those out first.
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Thanks ladies. I know I'm going to have to work on pulling the pinky too, though, and figuring out how to stop the night feed.
Last night, after falling asleep around 830, she woke at 1130, and I nursed her (she only had one side at 730, and I was uncomfortable) but then awake again at 400, had the other side (15 minutes), and awake at 500, and nursed (15minutes). Awake and happy for the day at 730. Asleep in crib for nap 1 now at 1115.
Will try to do a bit more tinkering with A's depending on naps and wake-up time. She was great today with the play group in terms of playing with the other kids, and me walking away from her. So glad she's happy when awake. Procrastinating on working on "happy falling asleep" :(
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Argh! And she's awake at 1145!!! 30 minutes, really?!?
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Perfect chance to try a 2.5hr A and see if she does a long pm nap for you, although I know it's frustrating to not know why a short nap happens.
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So I had her in the crib at 230... It's 300 and she's still babbling away. The only time she looked tired this afternoon was for a few minutes in the car at 1230, but then we got home, and she was happily playing with grandma. No real tired signs at 230... Just thought I should try, based on our conversation.
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I'm rethinking my approach about pulling the pinky. I just think that in the middle of the night, it will be hard for ME to resist nursing her or pinky ing her at 3 or 4 in the morning.
I guess my job is to provided her with the opportunity to fall asleep at appropriate intervals? And her job is to learn to fall asleep and stay asleep.
She's only done it once, but what do you do when she throws her bear out of the crib? I didn't make a big deal of it, and just put it back.
Do you think my presence is making it harder to fall asleep for her? It just seems if I leave, and I come back when she cries, it teaches her to cry?
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Or maybe she's the type of baby that just takes an hour to fall asleep?!? Finally fell asleep at 330 after tossing and walking around the crib for an hour to unwind. I wonder if I've just inadvertently made this part of the bedtime routine :(
Depending on how this nap goes, I may try to let her walk around the crib etc tonight without giving her my pinky....boy, don't I sound committed :)
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I suspect if you help her learn to sleep independently in the day it will be a lot easier to resettle her without feeding on the middle of the night.
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Agreed!
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I want to so badly. These teeth are horrible. DH suggested to not give Advil before bed, as he feels daily dosing is too much, but she's up inconsolable again.
I feel there will never be a "good" time to do this....
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Well, there will always probably be some reason not to do it, but if you want to do it, you'll be able to. It doesn't sound like you're ready and committed right now and that's ok. I do think sleep training is harder and much less fun while they're teething. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of time that they're not teething during the first two years. But, there will be windows of opportunity and if you'd like to take one, you can always get help here. Otherwise, I'd keep on as you are, and try to find the routine that best suits her.
As for giving meds, if she's really in pain, I'd give them as you'd want to take something to help you feel better if you were in pain. You can rub them on topically if you don't want to give a full dose. And during the day, let her chew on a frozen wet washcloth, ice chips, frozen yogurt tubes, frozen bananas (thanks to Ali for that suggestion ;)), etc. Then, you won't need to medicate during the day at all.
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Thanks :)
As she gets older, and I recognize how she's changing during the day, I can see how learning to fall asleep independently would help her so much.
Today, as we tried for nap 2 (which she didn't fall asleep for at all, even though was up at 700, nap 1 10:50-12:00, and in crib for nap 2 at 330) she stood there, and babbled away, and played with her bear, mostly happy. I sat in the dark room on the couch and fell asleep for a bit, and she'd cry out every once in a while, and I would lay her back down if she was standing. After 45 minutes of this, she was still wide awake and we gave up.
Fell asleep nursing at bedtime though, and woke several times already... (most recently, at 1030pm, I gave her Advil)
At any rate, my point about watching her at nap 2, was that she does seem much more comfortable in the crib alone, and before I go to resettle her when she wakes at night, she really does seem to be trying hard to get herself comfortable again. She does this "downward dog" "child's pose" hybrid, and wiggles around. Doesn't always find her bear, and just won't suck her own fingers. :( I have this internal dilemma each time I watch her on the video monitor... go to her right away as I know it will only take me 5 minutes to have her sound asleep again, or let her fuss and try to fall back asleep by herself. She does fall back asleep about 25% of the time... but when the fussing escalates to crying, it takes much longer to resettle. In the middle of the night, I think I just go to her automatically....
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Oh and you asked about the bear? I would only give it back if she asked for it and only once then I would just put it out of sight and lay her back down and continue with the resettling. Otherwise i fear it become a game.
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When I did WIWO with my DD at 20 mo and she threw herr lovey out, I would pick it up and give it back to her every 4-5 times. That way it was far enough apart that it didn't become a game and she eventually stopped throwing it out. She did fall asleep without it a few times though, so Ali has a point that it's not really needed if it becomes a game.
TBH, if you're not going to sleep train right now, I'd just go in and get her back to sleep before she escalates right now in the MOTN. I don't know that there's any reason for her to wait to do it on her own if she really doesn't know how. I actually think most of those early wakeups are due to OT rather than teeth. Only one nap of 1h10min ending at 12 surely made her OT by BT.
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I know that the answer to my question is probably just stop nursing/pinky to sleep altogether, but have you had any experience with keeping it for naps, just so baby isn't completely OT?
I think I can handle doing at night as DH will be at home, reminding me it's important, but during the day, if I'm home alone...Might not be able to reisist :(. .. Plus, I've always just nursed her before naps, and if she falls asleep, great, and if not, I put her in the crib and pinky for 5 -10 more minutes.
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I know that the answer to my question is probably just stop nursing/pinky to sleep altogether, but have you had any experience with keeping it for naps, just so baby isn't completely OT?
I've actually had the opposite experience. My DD was an independent sleeper from 5mo, but not always a consistent napper, so from about 6-13mo (when I weaned her), she fell asleep independently for all naps, but fell asleep nursing every night and STTN, unless teething or ill. You certainly could try it that way, but I think if you're really after independent sleep it should be done altogether. My DD had been fully trained before she started falling asleep nursing each night.
I think the real issue though, is if you're really committed to it or not. If you're not committed, then don't do it, because you'll likely end up reinforcing the prop more if you end up giving her the pinky and it will just make it harder down the road when you either have to or decide to stop. No one here is going to force you to sleep train and while we advocate independent sleep, there's no point in trying to do it if you're not going to follow through. If it works for you to nurse her (or use your pinky) to sleep for naps and BT, do it. Just know that the NWs may not fully improve until you stop that association.
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Thanks for the advice. It's hard... she's my first baby... difficult delivery and unexpected complications made for a rough start... and during the first few months, all I could think of was that I didn't go through all of that just to let her cry. And then I read too many sleep training books :)
Last night, we gave her Advil before bed, and she only woke at 1030 (OT, I think) and 330 (to nurse). I heard her a 530, but she put herself back to sleep until 630. Nap 1 today was 1030-1145, and nap 2 was 330-420. In bed asleep at 820 (BT was too late, but we were out, and her teeth must have been bothering her because she SCREAMED the whole car ride home, and was inconsolable until 15 minutes after we gave her Advil (615) She didn't eat much for dinner... she holds her food in her mouth like a chipmunk, and eventually, after bath and story I had to scoop the last mouthful out with my finger before I could even nurse her! That reminds me, I have to post on the eating board to see how to get her to actually swallow her food! :)
Hoping the Advil gives her some rest tonight.
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Yes, pls do post on the Feeding Solid Foods board for advice on that :)
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Thanks. Just an update for you ladies. The last 3 days have been pretty good in terms of NW and naps. On Sat, Sun and Mon, she was up at 620, nap 1 1030-1145, nap 2 330-415, asleep in crib by 810, a brief waking at 1015ish (settled with pinky) and waking at 200ish which she self settles after 5 minutes or so of fussing. Today, she was up at 500, so I nursed her, and she went back to sleep until 720.
So, I'm encouraged, and know that she can go at least 9 hours without food... hoping to wean that 500 feed too :)
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Sounds good! :)
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DD seems to always wake and fuss sometime between 10 and 1030 at night... and if she goes on for more than 5 minutes, I go in and pinky her back to sleep. If I were to do some sort of W2S to prevent this... do I go in at 930?
It's more of a mantra cry than all out angry cry, but she will likely get there soon if I don't go in and pinky her. She only sucks for ~4 minutes, and then is back asleep.
Do you think letting her go on with the mantra type cry until she falls back asleep or all out cries would be better, or try to go in at 930 an do some sort of W2S? What exactly do you do when you W2S?
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I've been keeping up with this thread as it is similar wo what I started w/ my 8 month old...
With my DD-her mantra cry is usually this long, drawn out whine with every breath she exhales and she does it until she falls asleep. Now the light fussing is what she does prior to all out crying-I don't count that as mantra cry. Just not heavy enough of a cry to make me go in there if that makes sense.
Have you tried PU/PD or S/P when she cries like that instead of the pinky? My DD was like yours and started to really rely on being nursed back to sleep everytime. I gradually decreased the times I nursed her to sleep, then dropped them. Now I PU/PD or S/P her to sleep if she needs it (she rarely does these days). I haven't tried W2S yet but I plan on it as soon as we figure out our current sleep issue. Here is something I found helpful on this site in regards to what W2S is:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0
HTH and thanks for posting your questions..its helping me with mine :)
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Helpful info from Lilbitynurse... thanks for joining in. :)
m2e - You can sure try w2s. For NWs, it's typically recommended going in an hour before the wake, so I'd try more around 9pm (or maybe 9:15, it might take a little trial and error) instead of 9:30. Good luck!
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Started night 1 of w2s. Went in at 915...rubbed her belly for a bit, but no reaction...moved onto cheek, on finally lifted her arm. She twitched and moved a bit. Snuck out of her room, and waited, 1000 on the dot, she cried out...was sitting up by the time I got in her room....I laid her back down, pinky in mouth for 2 minutes and is asleep again. For now.
Her days have been much more predictable. Definitely likes the 4 hour "A" if I try too soon, she won't fall asleep. Today was nursed at 500am(12 minutes, one side only, and straight back in crib asleep) wake up for day 725... Not hungry to nur, so I pumped, and she took that bottle and sipped at it all morning. Nap 1, 1130-1240, nap 2 430-500, asleep in crib at 820.
So still a bit on the low side for daytime sleep, but she wakes happy from nap 1. Always looks a bit disoriented after nap 2.
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I think if you could get her to sleep by 7:45/8pm, that would help with the 10-10:30pm NW too. It sounds a bit OT to me.
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Thanks! I'll try an earlier bedtime tomorrow night.
Sigh, she just woke at 11:20pm too. Crying hard, and only settled with nursing. She did this last night as well, but I gave her when she cried hard at the 11:15 waking, and then nursed to calm her down. I had given her Advil after bath/before bed today, so maybe this is a habitual waking too?
Going to bed now, and hoping for a good night's rest for me. I probably wouldn't be so tired if I "slept when baby slept" and ignored the dishes, laundry, paperwork, bills etc. :)
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I had given her Advil after bath/before bed today, so maybe this is a habitual waking too?
I think it's actually OT again, rather than habitual.
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So, last night, she woke again screaming at 300, which I'm guessing is the Advil wearing off? Settled down after Advil and nursing, and then slept until 745. Started nap 1 at 1145. Will see how long she naps, and then not sure what to do re nap 2 and bedtime. Will be asking for suggestions ... Please!
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And she's up at 1245 on the dot! So, I would normally try for nap 2 at 445, hoping she naps until 515, at least, and bedtime at 800?
Is there anything I can do to increase her daytime sleep, perhaps? To extend nap 1, preferably. It's usually 60-70 minutes, since we've been consistent with 4 hour "A" before nap 1 and 2.
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Will she go down for nap 2 any earlier than that? I would only do a 3.5hr A time after a 70min nap if possible. Then you could have her up by 4.45 and BT for 7.45 with asleep by 8...?
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Does 5 minutes count as earlier? :)
She did 440-510 for nap 2. I swear she has an internal clock and knows its been 30 minutes!
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I think she mostly fell asleep by herself tonight! Pinky-ed a bit, but the last 5 minutes were on her own :) A bit later than I wanted (820pm) but, she's asleep.
These teeth are horrible, though. Even DH suggested we give her Advil before dinner, as she was too upset to eat. She's had crazy poops too...my normally once a day pooper, has had poop in every diaper today, and been quite gassy. Grabbing her ears, gnawing her fingers, and anything metallic that she can get her mouth around. I'm pretty sure she'll be up once the Advil wears off at 200am. Debating about going in at 915 to try W2S if the 1000pm waking might be OT?
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Well, that was an odd night.
She was asleep at 820, woke at midnight, and I nursed her (I had a clogged duct on my right side, and was very uncomfortable, so it was actually a win-win situation). Slept until 530, when we gave Advil and nursed, and then she slept 600-845 (of course she did, as it's daddy daughter morning, and I was out of the house by 800am!).
So now, nap 1 wont be until 1245. If she miraculously naps past 230, I guess we'll try for a one nap day? But what if she only naps an hour? Should I try nap later?
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I swear she has an internal clock and knows its been 30 minutes!
Lots of LOs actually take 30 min naps. They're mostly considered OT.
So now, nap 1 wont be until 1245. If she miraculously naps past 230, I guess we'll try for a one nap day? But what if she only naps an hour? Should I try nap later?
I'm obviously too late for this, but often with a late wakeup like that, I'd try to push a bit farther past normal A, maybe to 1:00 and then nap so hopefully you only have to do one. Otherwise, yes if she made it til 2:15-2:30, I would have only done one nap with BT at 6:30/7pm. If it was only an hour, I'd have tried for nap 2 at 5:15-5:45 with BT at 8:15 (which it normal for her, I think).
(((Hugs))) on the teething trouble. My DS is struggling like that with his molars right now and it's no fun. :(
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Well, the nap actually went really well. We were out in the morning, and were rushing to get home by 1245, but she fell asleep in the car at 1220. She was miserable ths morning wth her teeth. I felt so bad for her. Debated driving around vs. going home and trying to transfer her, and chose to go home as DH had lots of yard work to do, and I thought, if the nap is super short, we can always try for a second nap. She did wake as soon as we pulled into the driveway, but we rushed her upstairs, nursed her a few minutes in the dark, and she was asleep again, and stayed in her crib until 300! We got so much housework done....finally!
Had plans to go to a BBQ tonight, with a bunch of childless friends, which meant that trying to leave in order to get her home for a decent bedtime was met by "why so early" and "one last hug/kiss" It took 35 minutes to actually leave, but shes finally asleep in crib at 815. Argh.
These teeth are horrible. It goes on for a year?!? I feel bad giving her pain meds every day :(
So, today, she fell asleep in the car at 1220, after a 845 wake up, and slept for 2.5 hours. Do you think that all her other 1 hour naps after 4 hour A are OT? Or that today is a bit of a fluke because we were in the car, when most weekdays are home with momma instead of all that extra stimulation? Other times I've tried a shorter morning A have backfired, as she was UT.
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So, today, she fell asleep in the car at 1220, after a 845 wake up, and slept for 2.5 hours. Do you think that all her other 1 hour naps after 4 hour A are OT? Or that today is a bit of a fluke because we were in the car, when most weekdays are home with momma instead of all that extra stimulation? Other times I've tried a shorter morning A have backfired, as she was UT.
It's hard to know. I would guess fluke because you were out and she fell asleep in the car. That being said, 1hr naps were typically OT for my DD. If you've tried a shorter A in the morning and gotten UT naps, then I don't know that you'd want to go back there, but you could try. Maybe it looked UT because she's still not settling independently. :-\
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I know that no child has ever died of "teething" but I think these may be the death of ME. She is miserable, and in so much pain, her NW is way worse, she was up at 530 this morning, and her naps are all over the place now.
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So we've had a bit better night sleep (between midnight and 600), and she's getting a much longer nap in the morning, except now, I having trouble getting in a second nap.
Yesterday,
up at 720, nap 1115-115pm, Tried for nap 2 at 400 (she looked a bit tired, and was fussy, so gave her some tylenol and tried for nap but no luck) in bed by 645, but not asleep until 745.
she was miserable last night... took a long time to settle, and awake between 900 and 1030 with so much teething pain, but once she was finally asleep at 1030, was fine until 630.
today, so far... up at 630, nap 1015-1245... do I try for nap 2, or just super early bedtime?
and is this truly the start of 2-1 transition? She'll be 1 year old tomorrow!!! :)
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and is this truly the start of 2-1 transition? She'll be 1 year old tomorrow!!! :)
Yes, and Happy Birthday!
The tricky part of the long nap in the morning is when they start to refuse the pm nap. The first thing to do is not let the am nap go over 2 hr, until you get to about 4.5 hr A time and the day is a bit more balanced to do one nap. I'm guessing she needs 4hr A after that first long nap in order to take another one. The CN can be as short as 20min, just to get her to a decent bedtime without being OT. At this point, I know a lot of moms AP the second CN either in the stroller or with a quick car ride. Although, neither of mine have gone the long morning, short afternoon route, so I'm likely not the best one to get advice from. If you'd like more routine specific help on the 2-1, the support threads are always a good place to go. Here's a link for the one on the toddler board: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=233197.0
Good luck! :)
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So far, birthday is not going as planned! Was fussy last night, woke at 800, 1100 and 200. Up at 700, but only took a 35 min nap 1125-1200. Now what? When to try nap 2?
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I probably would've tried for 2:30/3pm.
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Ok, I am really confused now. On Friday, was up at 700, had nap 1 11:25-1200, nap 2 did not happen (I tried at 230, 330 and 400), was in crib asleep by 715pm, up at 800 (pinky back to sleep) 1000 (pinky back to sleep) and nursed at 4am.
Up for the day on Saturday at 7:20. Had a great nap (11:45-1:55), so did not even try for nap 2. Was in crib by 730, but not asleep until 805 (pinky) WU at 835-900 (pinky) 1007-1010 (pinky) 1110-1123 (nursed) 200-215 (nursed) 600-610 (nursed) and up for the day at 720 . I nursed all those overnights as I was really tired, and just needed her to go back to sleep.
So... she had a great long 2 hour nap and was up 5 times overnight... but had a crappy 30 minute nap and was up 3 times.
Are all those early evening WU's OT? And the overnight WU's? There are no new teeth yet, but she's not nearly as fussy/in pain so we've backed off on the pain meds. Just one dose of Advil right after bath, but she's not really as miserable during the day anymore.
What are your thoughts? I think if we get a few more good long naps over the next few days, I'll work on weaning the pinky. Basically, I try to soothe her in the crib without giving her my pinky... or nursing her... and repeat each time she wakes overnight? Dreading it already :(
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Are all those early evening WU's OT? And the overnight WU's?
Yes, the early evening WUs are OT. The overnight ones are either still OT, discomfort, or just the lack of her ability to self-soothe. The fact that there were less on the night of the really bad nap could be just because she was exhausted.
Basically, I try to soothe her in the crib without giving her my pinky... or nursing her... and repeat each time she wakes overnight?
Yep. I think you know what to do, it's just a matter of doing it. You'll find tweaks that suit her and help her learn to self-soothe during the process. And don't dread it too much. You never know.. she may surprise you! :)
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Sigh. Just had our one-year appointment with the doctor for DD. She's 16lb 4oz... only 3 oz weight gain in 6 weeks. Doctor asked if she was still getting up at night, and suggested that it was OK to just feed her once at night if she wakes.
She was up at 715 this am, and we didn't get home from the doctors until 1230... nursed and straight to nap (poor thing was so tired, but remarkably, not as upset as I thought she'd be from the shots!) The teeth are bugging her again, though.
So now, I guess I will modify the plan... still try to get her to fall asleep on her own (not nursing and not pinky-ing)... and nurse her only once at night, if/when she wakes, and try to get her back to sleep the other times if it hasn't been a reasonable time between wakings.
Have you had any experience with this? I thought the key to the sleep training was consistency?
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Hmm, well my DS2 is sleep trained in that he goes to sleep independently at naps and BT but I still feed him if he wakes in the early hours of the morning. If he wakes earlier in the night and doesn't settle easily with me lying him back down then I do pupd (PD). Personally I sleep trained at 8mo when we removed the woombie swaddle (he had been going down awake with a soother and the swaddle until shortly before that) and I only did the pupd in the day and if he woke within an hour of BT (as he started doing when we weaned the swaddle and he was teething too). At night I just BF him back to sleep, sometimes twice. It will take longer but I believe they do know the difference between NFs and settling to sleep in the first place. I wasn't dealing with a feed to sleep or suck to sleep prop though. He had lost interest in the soother a month earlier so I just stopped offering it. It was never a prop. I do actually think if you teach self soothing skills in the day then the NWs will decrease anyway.
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I agree with Ali. I think you can still do it if you want to. I trained my DD at 5mo with PUPD to get rid of a paci prop. I only did it during the day and at bedtime and fed her at NWs. Granted, she only had a DF and one NF at the time (occasionally 2), but it didn't hinder her progress at all.
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Just an update...we,re still nursing to sep, and nap. Down to one nap a day. She's spiked a fever in reaction to her MMR immunization and as barely eaten anything for several days now. Wants nothing butvo nurse. I expect this to pass in a few days.
When she's feeling better, how do I break her very strong association of nursing with sleep? Now, when she's tired, she pulls at my shirt! I still want to nurse her before bed and nap, but it doesn't seem right to wake her if she falls asleep at the breast.
The NW had been down to once a night, prior to the fever. Although I only dd this once...I found it helpful to have DH sleep with the monitor so that I couldn't hear it unless she was all out crying...might try it again when she's feeling better
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When she's feeling better, how do I break her very strong association of nursing with sleep? Now, when she's tired, she pulls at my shirt! I still want to nurse her before bed and nap, but it doesn't seem right to wake her if she falls asleep at the breast.
Honestly, I'm not sure you can unless you don't allow it to happen. :-\ I don't think waking her is the answer either, because she still has that initial nursing to sleep association. If you want to continue nursing her before nap and bed, then you'll have to do it early enough to where she doesn't fall asleep on the breast. For nap time, you could do it 30 min prior and then do a diaper change and your winddown. For bedtime, you could nurse before putting on pjs and your winddown.
I just need to ask though, do you really want to break the habit? It's ok if you don't, we're not going to be upset. :) It sounds like she's doing fine, really with only that one NW and you felt like you still needed to feed her at that time anyway, right? I'm not trying to play devil's advocate here, if you want to break the habit we can still help, because it will eventually need to be broken. But, if you're happy with how things are, then it's fine to leave it.
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My friends daughter is 2 1/2, with a personality very much like my DD. Sleep is a nightmare for them now, as she screams and cries for hours, is EW, refuses to nap....
I don't want to get to that point, but am afraid we are headed there if I don't get on top of this. I don't want to make it worse by "breaking her trust" and letting her cry, and she is so very aware of everything now! I have enough issues getting her to eat...I don't want bedtime to be a battle too. I'm just concerned that the longer I leave the sleep issues, the harder it will be to break it!
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Yes, you are correct in that it likely will be more difficult down the road. It's definitely a powerful example to see friends who are struggling with sleep.
The thing is though, you are NOT breaking her trust doing BW methods, specifically Gradual Withdrawal, or what I think you called the chair method previously. She will cry, yes, and could put up quite a fight the first couple days, but she is doing it because it's a change, not because she can't trust you anymore. I don't know about you, but I'm not always keen on change either. ;). If you stay consistent with your method and continue to pour on the love and cuddles throughout the day, she will still be as secure in your love (possibly even more, because you will go through it together) as she is now. Consistency is key, and I'm guessing with that, the whole process can be over and done with in a couple weeks.