BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: waffler on September 16, 2006, 00:57:13 am
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Not really sure to post on the EASY forum or this, will try this one first!
Been transitioning DD from 3-4 hour EASY over the last 2 wks. Currently our schedule looks like this :
E 0700
S 0900
E 1100
S 1300
E 1445
(no sleep nor catnap)
E1800 and put to sleep
We are moving the 3rd feed to 3pm soon, and we have to put her to bed earlier as she is definitely awake for too long. The first night we did this (we have done 2 nights of this routine so far) seemed to be okay, the first night she woke 2-4 am, and last night was awake 10-2 am (4hrs!!!). I tried to feed her at 10pm thinking dream feed, she was nibbling, not very hungry at all. I then realised this wasnt gonna work so my Husband took over... and he was with her for 3 hours until she finally slept at 2 am (poor husband). I am hoping that this is because we are still transitioning her. Is this normal to expect this until we get on track with all feed/sleep times?
Note - she doesnt nap more than 45 mins although one day she slept 90 mins!!!! We have to put her back to sleep.
Ta.
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How old is your LO? Does she really go from 2:45 to 6pm without a nap? I'm no expert, just snooping...we're going through some of the same issues. :-\
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She is 4.5 months (corrected). Yea, she really does stay awake that long!!!! The thing about Mira is, she doesn't just nod off. She really needs a lot of help. So for naps, we have to swaddle, and really patshush etc to get her to sleep. She yells and yells for ages first...
(And I have to admit now that we are still AP as in for her night sleep i nurse her to sleep... we have done this from day 1 and i am going to nip it in the bud - promise - but wanted to sort this 4 hour transition first....)
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You're right in that your DD is overtired. I think that it's important that you straighten out the routine ASAP and be consistent with it. Being awake 2:45 - 6 is far too long, and by bedtime she's just wasted - leading to NW. If you look in the EASY forum there are sample routines for each age range that can help you decide what will work best for both of you.
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Yup, I was going to say we've had some of the same issues when our LO is overtired. Give her lots of sleep and she turns into an angel/textbook baby. Take away her sleep and she's spirited! Check out the naps forum, too, for help with extending those 45 min naps - it CAN be done!! :)
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Third night in a row , awake 2am-4am...
The prob I have is that I'm trying to transition her to the 4 hr easy. Today we add 15 mins to the routine, so it will be
E 0700,
E 1100
E 1500
E 1815
The tricky part is to get her to cat nap between 3pm and 6.15 pm. From experience if she sleeps within 2 hours of her bedtime then it takes forver to get her to sleep...
Think this is what I'll do with her sleep times today.
S 0900 - 1000 (only one hour)
S 1200 - 1400 (so she will have been awake max 2 hours and hopefully can sleep for most of this time.
S 1600 - 1645 (no more than 45 mins so she can sleep at bedtime).
Will tweak as I go on today. What do you think of this??
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I think that sounds good - but if you find that it doesn't help, maybe a little backtracking might help since her age is corrected, KWIM?
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Stacy, thanks. Where I am in the world its now 1.30 am, and my DD was in bed asleep at 7.30 pm (of course then i b/f and took forever to sleep), she woke 9.30, 10.30(down in bed 12.15) and just woke at 1.00. I have just put her back in her bed, didnt b/f, but held her and rocked a bit to get her to sleep. I've given up sleep myself, I'm expecting her to be up again in 45 mins or so. This is awful.
For the rest of the wakings and until my husband gets back from his trip I will not b/f her to sleep at night. It's going to be so hard, but I'll do it. Of course i dont want to do CIO, but from an exhausted mums perspective, sometimes the thought of just closing my eyes, going to sleep, and somehow, someone has waved a magic wand, and my baby will be able to sleep by herself is a dream...
So, the main points are :
1) no more b/f or rocking to sleep
- but the only way to calm her when she cries is the hairdryer and some jigging - does this HAVE to stop?
2) bring in cat nap - did that today, and she seemed better, but so far the night wakings are still there..
3) Wait a few days to see how this goes, and if by the w/e no improvement, then as a team, my husband and i will do pupd.
Ok? And, it is such a relief to have this support on this board.... i dont know what i'd do without it. I very nearly walked out of the house tonight in my pjs and didnt want to come home :'(
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- but the only way to calm her when she cries is the hairdryer and some jigging - does this HAVE to stop?
If she likes the hairdryer, have you thought of putting a fan or other white noise machine in her room? That might make a HUGE difference.
And, it is such a relief to have this support on this board.... i dont know what i'd do without it. I very nearly walked out of the house tonight in my pjs and didnt want to come home :'(
:-* We've all been there, you're definitely not alone!
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Thanks... guess what. Its now 2.30 am, and after i sent the last post... DD was awake!!!! So I tried to put down... but she woke. Sounded like she did a poo, so i had to put the dimmer on to change her nappy, and boy was she happy to see me! All beaming and babbling and playing with her feet. I actually had to giggle but made sure she didnt see me doing it. So she's now awake upstairs, no way is she going to sleep just yet. THought i'd leave her alone for a bit.
You know, the swaddling seems to be a problem I think. SHe always wakes when she pops an arm out. But when she's sleeping well, as in not waking regularly, this has never been a big prob. I think all these wakings tonight are due to her arm popping out. But she is SOOOOO jerky that it's so hard not to swaddle initially. When I soothe and place her back in her crib, and place a hand on her, you can feel all those jerks. So the swaddle is kinda needed then...
I'm definitely not getting any sleep tonight!!! But I'm prepard for it, so somehow, makes it the teeniest bit easier.
I may be back .... tonight!
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stacy why are we not ready for pupd? DD still awake, 5 am .... cant soothe her :'(
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I do agree with Stacy, many night wakings are hunger or prop related. I am suspecting that she has her days and nights mixed up, what do you think?
Have you tried the Aussie swaddle? That might help you out a lot.
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Just commeting about the white noise... we use a reg fan, on the floor, on high, facing the wall - very close. It makes the greatest sound - its what I use to sleep too ::) Have a go!
Zoey
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Last night, I was up from 10.30pm till 5.30 am. She woke at 6.20 am.
I know what she needs. She needs the sucking comfort. She doenst take the paci , and her fingers she sucks for fun but never comfort.
Re the jiggling, what I mean by that is, we hold her, and basically "dance" a bit but she gets jiggled up and down. Yes, I know, this is a prop and we have to stop it. But, if you could just see how my baby cant get soothed any other way, you'd know why we do it. When she's crying so hard, we have the h/dryer on FULL, we swaddle, we "dance" and only if its vigorous enough will she finally calm down. Then we slow down the dance till we're not moving. I try to sit at this stage, but she hates it. She knows when i do cos her feet rest on my lap and she hates it, so i have to stand again. And its kinda hard not to sway even the teeniest bit. I catch myself doing it and I stop.
Spoke to DH today, told him about all the wonderful support we're getting here. But he was very sceptical when i told him "no jiggling" as thats his fool proof way of getting her to calm down. *sigh* we'll try our best.
Re white noise- we do have a ceiling fan thats on all night. And we sometimes leave the h/dryer on medium, but she still wakes.
Will check out the aussie swaddle. I know i saw a link for it on this board so i'll go hunt it down. We just have to find the thing that will work for her for calming her down, besides picking her up and jiggling.
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Oooh forgot i need to get some advice about something.
After the swaddling, patshushing etc, and we place her in her cot, she is normally about 90% asleep. ANyway. What we do is, we place a hand on her chest, just to help with the jolts. ANd we find that we have to keep it there normally bout 5 mins, but lately, longer, like 25 mins. Do u think we shld reduce this time? We keep it there till she's in a deep sleep. And we do it because of her frequent jolts. D'ya think we shld be taking our hand off sooner?
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Ditto to Stacy.
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Okay I hear what you're saying :)
Update. Naps were : 30+40, 30+30 and a 30 catnap. Didnt b/f her to sleep. She woke after 45 mins, put her back down again (that was 8.30pm). Next time she woke was... 1130pm!!!! I b/f her as it was about 4.5 hrs, and she did feed well actually, although was v sleepy. Put her in cot awake... and swaddled her, then laid hands on her and pat shush (patted her shoulder). She fell asleep... I shsushed for 25 mins though! But then the next time she woke, was 5.30. And i was a bit hesitant to feed her, thinking too close to 7am, but I went in anyway and fed her. Well, tried to do the same as earlier, but she wasnt having any of it. I encouraged her to find her fingers, and she does suck but it just isnt the same (obviously!). ANyawy. I've left her in her cot as its now 6.30 am. And I'll go up and wake her at 7.00. She's just babbling.
I feel much better after a "rest" tonight. Encouraged also. Will work on the swaddle and reduce the awake time, less hands on etc.
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Good for you! Just keep at it and one day you will find that things are PARADISE! ;)
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Well, we're seeing some improvement. I don't feed her to sleep at bedtime anymore. Takes a long time to settle her though, but it can be done. Yesterday i didnt do a cluster feed, and she woke at 11.30 and 4.30 as normal, but also woke at 2.30. Wonder whether this has anything to do with it. I fed her at 1130 and 430 as it was bout 5 hrs since last feed.
Wondering whether I ought to try to not do cluster, but wake her at 11pm for a dreamfeed? She has been consistently waking around 1130 at night. I feed her then.
Re swaddling, i noticed tonight that when i left her room when she was mid scream (this was while trying to put her down at bedtime - i had to pee!) then when i came back, both arms were out but she was sucking on fingers. and she seemed calm. So this is definitely making her happier. Although, her arms still flail like mad. I'm probably showing my age here, but does anyone remember "Lost in space" on TV back in the late 70s? well when the robot goes "Danger Mr Robinson" and his arms go round and round? Well, that's what mira's arms are like! So I think she needs the swaddle to control it, but... she likes sucking. Tried the aussie swaddle but that didnt seem to work.
Her daytime naps are a bit erratic but i'm seeing a trend. Her longest nap is the morning nap. We always need to resettle her after 30-40 mins to get her to keep going. The afternoon nap is a bit harder, and lastly, the catnap, she has been doing consistently 30 mins so we've accepted that.
So, all in all, we are seeing some improvement daily, and I think things will get better as long as we are consistent :) Thanks for all your help. and HOpefully, one day I'll post that we have been successful hurrah!
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Hm think i spoke too soon....
This is night #4, and this has happened again : after we eventually get her settled at bedtime, she wakes again 20-35 mins later. And she is screaming. DH is with her now, struggling to settle her :(
Any idea why she's doing this? Takes about an hour to settle her back to sleep, from what the other 3 nights are to go by.
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We've had a mix of a day. Last night, after her bout of screaming, DH put her down to bed at 9.20, and she did not wake until 630 am!!! This is a first. We were happy. I fed her at 6.30, and we started our day at 7 basically. She got sleepy round 8.15, wound her down, and she went for her morning nap at 10.25. She Slept a whole two hours!!! Didnt wake at all - another first. We had to wake her at 10.30. Had her bath, fed at 11. Oh, btw, during the wound down, we topped her up with 50ml of expressed breast milk (EBM) which i had expressed from her first feed.
For her 2nd nap, think we tried to put her down too early, because it was a bit harder. But she went down at 12.30 or so. Again, we gave 50ml of EBM to top her off. Both naps, easy to get her to sleep. Swaddled, she didnt cry, patshush and she was asleep within 10 mins. For this nap, she slept in 3 phases, of 40+30+15 mins. Finally didnt want to sleep at 2.15 pm.
Fed her at 3pm. And was asleep for catnap at 4.20. She woke at 5pm on the dot. I gave her a very brief feed but she wasnt very intersted. Then, we went for our walk, and she got grizzly round 6.20. THing is , then i was just starting her massage. which was followed by a bath, and I started to feed her her dinner at 6.40, with the intention of getting her to bed by 7pm. But, she wasn't very sleepy. So i just walked her in her room, we listened to some relaxing music, i read her a book (which i never do at bedtime. normally its feed, swaddle, sleep - or rather i used to b/f her to sleep). Well, i waited for tired signs which didnt actually come. but at the first sign of a grizzle, i put her in cot ,swaddled her. She looked up at me with scared eyes and started to cry. That was at 7.20 pm and its now 8.30 pm - DH with her now. She cried so hard she vomited and we had to change her PJs and sheets. He is now topping her off with 100ml of EBM - hoping this will calm her down.
We can't figure out whats wrong. Are we starting this whole routine too late? I thought with a better catnap today of 40 mins, and waking at 5pm, we cld make it to a 7pm bedtime.
To summarise the day, here it is :
0630 : woke and E
0825-1030 : S
1100 : E
1230-2.15 : S (40+30+15 mins)
3.00 : E
4.20-5.00 : S
5.00 : E (top up)
6.40 : E
and the rest, well, she is still awake.
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So here's what's going on. I'm not sure whether this board is still where I ought to post this, but i'll leave it here until decide otherwise....
Improvements :
- No more feeding to sleep
- No more rockng to sleep
- Last 2 mornings have slept 2 hours straight for her nap
Problems :
- Her 2nd nap of the day is not good. Read book by Marc Weissbluth that the afternoon nap develops btween 5-8 months. Do I just have to keep trying until one day it gets better?
- Catnap - today she woke after 25 mins, i pat/shsh her she went another 15, then 20 mins. Total 1 hour. But i'm still getting the timing wrong for the night sleep!!!
Today's routine looked like this :
(btw after her bedtime of 9pm, she woke 1.30 i fed her, and then she started making noise at 6am-ish, but wasn't cryig. didnt go in until 6.30 am to feed her. Started the day with lights on at 7am.)
6.30 E
8.15-10.15 S (2hrs)
11.00 E
1230-1.00 S (30mins)
3.00 E
3.50 - 5.15 S (25+15+20). We woke her at 5.15 so as to protect night sleep.
6.20 Massage, bath bedtime routine.
6.40 E
And then I waited it out till she was showing sleepy signs to put her down.
At this stage, she was getting grizzly, so i put her in cot, swaddled, said phrase, put on "womb machine", switched of light and started patshsush (this worked really well for her naps the last 3 days). She started soft whining, then yawned few times - this normally is a good sign for her naps! But, after like, 15 mins, the cries escalated and she was wide awake. So I gave up.
DH is upstairs with her now. He's just trying to spend some quiet time with her, we think we've missed her sleep window. The last 4 nights she's been having this prob of falling asleep (since tuesday i hvae not b/f her to sleep) and only finally falls asleep around 9pm.
So, am i still leaving it too late? I figured with a 1 hour total nap, ending at 5.15, I thought maybe we cld stretch it out a bit. And really, she wasn't overtired when i fed her. I read like, 5 books? And THEN she started to get sleepy. I don't know really what the prob is.
I didnt feed her at 5pm today. And only gave ebm for the first feed.
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Problems :(
Todays naps went well, as in, we can put her down awake. First nap, 2 hrs. 2nd nap 30+20 mins. Catnap, 40 mins. The problem is, at bedtime, she just cant be put to bed.
Last night, I finally had to feed her, she'd been screaming for over 2 hours, and we weren't sure if she was thirsty/hungry. So I fed her, she was SO tired. She started to nod off. So I gently took her off, put her in her cot, and started to swaddle her. She opened her eyes and was clearly very sleepy. But she went straight to sleep, didnt wake till 6.40 am.
We are having the same prob today. DH up again with her. THis is what the routine was like today :
6.40 she woke
7.00 E
8.30-11.00 S (2.5 hrs)
11.00 E
1.10 - 2.30 S (30+20 mins only)
3.00 E
4.20-5.00 S (catnap of 40 mins)
Took her for walk. Was aiming for bed routine at 6.10 with intention to feed at 6.30, and bed by 6.45 BUT....
At 6.05 she started to rub her eyes. At this stage we had just started bed routine, and I panicked :( I thought, i cant put her down now, she won't have gone thru her bed routine! So I proceeded with massage and bath. By time fed her at around 6.25 she was totally grizzly and wouldnt feed. SO I tried to put her to bed then, but wouldnt work. SO fed her, and have tried so many times now to put her to bed. She was near hysterical. So cuddled her, had h/dryer on to soothe her. And when i thought she was really calm and quiet, waited 10 mins, I put her in cot. She started screaming hysterically as soon as her head hit pillow.
This has been going on for a week or so now. I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. Should I have put her bedtime at 6pm then? I didnt think she'd be that sleepy an hour after her catnap though.
Any ideas? :(
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Hiya!
I would try to not have such a long first nap - babies have like a quota lol, if you use a whole bunch of sleep up with the first nap, she isn't going to wanna sleep for the rest and then she is going to be overtired at bedtime.
So I would suggest 1h30m first nap, 1h30m-2h 2nd nap and 30mins catnap. Also, I can't remember if you have added A time anytime soon but I would maybe add 10-15mins to the Second A time and see how that goes too?
If 630ish seems to be the time she keeps waking, I would tend to think that is her biological wake time and go with it. If she is up at 630ish she needs to be asleep at night by 645/7pmish.
Remember the catnap is a freebie, take it anyway she will sleep - car ride, swing, stroller, whatever, don't fight for this nap.
If you are feeding 7,11,3 try the last feed at 6/615, then bath, top-ff if you do this sorta thing, wind down and in the crib by 645/7 the lastest.
I hope this helps some, I am sorry things are still wacky! Hang in there you really are doing great hun. :-* :-* :-*
Love,
Zoey
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I DONT GET IT!!!!
Okay, DH is upstairs with her again (i sound like a broken record) and its 8pm and she is screaming hysterically!
We are trying to figure out what we are doing wrong at bedtime Last night we finally got her asleep by 9.30 and miraculously, she only woke up at 7am. So, that is going well.... And naps are going well. The only problem now is getting her to go to sleep at bedtime.
I'll post what happened today so you are on the same page :
Wake 7.00, and eat
8.30 - 10.00 S (she woke naturally after 90 mins)
11.00 E
1.10 - 2.30 S (this was a 30+70 min nap)
3.00 E
4.45-5.15 Catnap in car
Okay, so i figured, we'll massage/bath 6pm, feed by 6.15 and hopefully be in bed 630/645. No way. At 5.30, yes, 5.30, she started yawning. Could this be for real??? She only woke 15 mins b4 that!!! So i ignored her yawning. We were out on a walk anyway, not much i cld do at that stage...
She was fine during her bed routine, and fine during her feed. Then at the end of it, she started grumbling. I tried read a story, and take it easy with a wind down. But she wasnt having any of it. And ... i am ashamed to admit, i b/f her again to soothe her.... She didnt sleep at all though. SO put her back in cot wide awake, and swaddled etc but she was just hysterical. So DH took over cos we thought maybe its ME that keeps her awake. Perhaps she's thinking "hey, this is not our routine. You feed me to sleep. so why aren't you doing this now?" Dunno. But, i can hear her screaming and screaming and I feel so sorry for both her and DH. It's awful. Its been a week now and this is just what happens.
I'm at a loss. I'm not feeding her to sleep. I'm not missing her sleepy signs I dont think (not today anyway.. despite her yawning at 5.30). WHy oh why oh why is she so hard to put down at bed?
Pls help... tomorow i may try to feed her first, then her bed routine. And see what happens. But this is disastrous. I'm so tempted to go up and feed her to soothe her... she may nod off on the breast....
Should we just take her out of nursery when she screams and have quiet play with her to catch the next window?
I'm so sorry I have all these questions, but its driving me insane. And I know it's about the same bloomin' thing over and over.... I feel like I'm wasting everyone's time here but I really need help :'(
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Aww sweetie, you aren't wasting anyone's anything!
Ok let's stop and regroup.
I see a walk before bedtime mentioned a few times - perhaps that is too stimulating, or something! Let's cut that out for 7days and see what happens. Do it earlier in the daytime. Keep your daytime naps limited to; 1h30m first nap, 1h30m-2h 2nd nap and 30mins catnap --> freebie in the car is fine and dandy.
I want you to try her last feed at 6/615, then bath and massage, top-off if you do this, OUT of the nursery, then go in wind down (5-10mins max) and in the crib by 645/7 the latest.
Stay strong, no feeding for comfort, that is sending mixed signals. Use your pat/shh when she cries not your breast. Crying is ok, I know (goodness do I know) it's so hard to hear, and makes you so sad - but really, she is OK. She can't say to you guys, "Uhm...yeah, I really liked the feeding to sleep idea guys - this pat/shh crap stinks!" So, instead she cries! This is her way of telling you how she feels about this situation. As long as you or DH is with her and attempting to soothe her, she is really ok. You aren't hurting her, you are teaching her a fabulous skill.
At night, I would not take her anywhere. At night we pat/shh until she is asleep. Stay strong, stick with your plan. You can do this, and she can too.
Yawning doesn't always mean, 'I am sleepy'. I say this because when we started Easy at 4m I would always put Owen to bed when I saw yawning and he always would have a REALLY hard time going down, then wake at 45mins - why? Cause he wasn't sleepy tired, and was bored tired lol. Sometimes a change in activity helps too. Do you have any baby einstein dvds? I highly rec them, they are 30mins and will hold just about any babys attention for 30mins! They have classical music too so it's not just an empty show they look at. We love baby E, Owen's watches one every night before bedtime while I scurry around getting his bottle and bath stuff ready.
I hope this helps some - remember for every change you make, you must give it some days to work. Sometimes it takes a week to see changes - so perhaps try the suggestions and wait and see what happens?
Lots of love - I admire your patience and strength woman!
Zoey
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Thanks zoey... will try that plan ./ BTW, why do the top up feed outside the nursery??
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Because if there was a feed to sleep association, and your goal is to completely eliminate that - you want feeding to be completely seperate from the sleep stuff. Meaning you don't want it in the room or part of anything to do with sleep or falling sleep. Make feeding it's own entity, not part of the wind down. There really shouldn't be any feeding in the nursery unless its a night waking for a feeding. Make sense?
Good Luck hunny! :-*
Love,
Zoey
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This is what happened yesterday (I feel like I am back in school writing my reports!!)
0600 woke, fed
0630 back in cot asleep
0730 woke and fed
0915-1100 sleep
1100 eat
1250-1.20 Sleep (couldnt extend)
3.00 Eat
4.20 - 5.00 Catnap
6.00 Feed
6.10 massage and bath, then topup feed
6.30 wind down, swaddled by 6.40 as tired
Screamed, but went down asleep at 7.10pm
8.10 Woke, patshush back to bed
Then, slept right thru to 3 am, where I fed her. Put her back in her cot awake, took about 15 mins to get her back to sleep by patshush but she was quiet. And we started the day at 7am. Btw, my husband was the one who put her to bed, as we wanted to see if it would be easier without me there as she may want me to feed her. eVERY night b4 this, we've started with me putting her to bed and dh taking over. well, dunno what it was that worked, but last nite went quite well....
Today, pretty much same routine, but her naps looked like this.
9.00-10.20 1st nap
12.30-3.00 2nd nap but it was broken up into 10+40+40
Didnt get a catnap :( went out, thought she'd sleep in car seat but no luck. So we started our night routine today 15 mins earlier at 5.45. DH upstairs with her trying to put down, will post later and tell u what happened!
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SIDE ISSUE
I have not given her a dreamfeed for 4 months or so. And when she was sleeping at 9ish pm she would sleep right thru to 6-7 without needing a feed. But last night, she woke at 3 am. I'm wondering, once the dust has settled and we find out what her routine at night is going to be like, should i be introducing a DF ? Or just let her go with the flow? The reason I stopped it when she was really little was she just didnt drink much milk at all and would wake an hour later.
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HI there girl!
This: 1250-1.20 Sleep (couldnt extend) - she probably didn't sleep longer because she was only awake from 11 to 1250, short A time leads to a short nap because she wasn't tired enough to need more then that much sleep - but then her next A time is 3h hours long on only 30mins of sleep - so now she is way overtired. Her catnap is 40mins but that isn't enough to combat being awake from 1250-420 with only 30mins of sleep. So, yes she sleeps for 40mins which isn't that restorative either and still goes to bed overtired so you still have a bit of trouble. Does this make sense?
I would try really really hard to stick to proper A times, especially long enough ones because a short nap really throws things for a loop routine wise. Next time if you can't extend, know that her A time after the short nap must be shorter - you feed, wait for sleepy cues and put her down immed or you feed wait 45mins and put her down - whichever comes first. Yes this may make for an extra lil nap in there but you have to stop letting her get overtired. Also, limit her nap lengths - 1.5h am nap, 1.5-2h pm nap and 30min catnap. This means waking her when you get to the nap limit. The idea of the day is, awake for 2h15m-2h30m, then sleep for 1h30m, awake 2h15m-2h30m, sleep for 1h30m-2h, awake for 2h15m-2h30m, sleep for 30m, awake for an 1h or so, bed - there is wiggle room, but you can see there is a balance.
The DF - starting at 5m could go either way. It could help or it could create more nightwakings. It could be she is starting a growth spurt. My best advice is to increase her daytime calories - giving her as much as she will take at her feedings, topping off before bed and seeing how that goes. It really isn't uncommon at all to have atleast one night waking even with a DF, so you may be better off increasing her day intake and except a night feeding if there seems to be one. It's up to you though, I would probably get sleep fixed completely and see what she does. Also, always give a 3day limit - meaning, if something odd happens say an unexpected night waking, wait and see what the next day brings before panicking and making big changes - it sometimes is a fluke or in the case with some nightwakings, simply increasing her daytime intake may eliminate the trouble.
Everything seems better though, you are definately heading in the right direction - I hope my writing it out above helps you. Keep it up, I hope you can see the progress - just keep pushing for the right balance.
Love,
Zoey
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I've been waiting a few days to see what happens. Everything appears to be getting worse *sob*
She has started rolling over, which has meant that she wakes at night. Sometimes its easy to put her back to sleep, but we had one night of 3 hours of crying. So we're not sure how to get around this problem. Her arms get out pretty quick from the swaddle, so we're not too worried about her sleeping on her tummy. I've walked in to check on her, and she's been sound asleep on her tum, with arms out. But sometimes she does wake up.
The other thing is, a week or so ago, she could go down for 2 hours in the morning, but now, does a 40 + whatever we manage to extend. Perhaps this is because the previkous night she went to sleep around 9.30 because we just couldn't get her to sleep.
We have (I think!) managed to get her to not expect to be fed before bed. But it's still not easy. and i think it's because she is overtired. We try to make sure she has her 3 naps. But the catnap is very hard to instill. Couple of times, I took her out, expecting her to sleep in the car, but no way. We bring her bedtime earlier but it's still very hard to juggle. Yesterday, she napped 30 mins, but the prob was, she woke at 5.15. And we started her bedtime around 6.30-645, but she just wasnt tired. Finally went to bed at 8.30. What should we do if this happens again?
Tonight is frustrating. I managed to get her asleep by 6.30 pm (She didnt catnap, and her day naps weren't very good). But, just as I was creeping out of her room at 7pm, she woke, and has been hysterical for the last 2 hours. And we just cant pat shush her to sleep. I'm beginning to think that this is just not working.
Is it normal to have a regression? I was so frustrated I felt like walking out the door and never coming back. It's looking rather bleak in our house tonight :(
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Oh hunny, I've been there - it's going to be ok. HUGS
So for three days you tried to stick to the plan and did anything get better at all? What were your A times before each nap and before bedtime for these three days? How long was Each Nap? Yes, it is common to have regressions - but if she is rolling, that is developmental and causes trouble with sleeping.
Do you think she could be ill - ear infection, or teething something like this? Is she hungry, going through a growth spurt? Are you exclusively BFing or are you pumping? How many times did she wake in the past three nights and what did you do at the waking? Did you try a DF? How are you extending her nap? Does she scream everytime you lay her flat?
My opinion is when babies start to roll over it isn't safe to swaddle anymore. This is my opinion and naturally you can do what you want - but I felt it important to state my opinion. Perhaps, if she is busting her arm out of the swaddle AND rolling, you may want to try swaddling from her armpits down? Are you using a pacifier?
Zoey
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(my answers in caps)
So for three days you tried to stick to the plan and did anything get better at all? WHAT SEEMED TO GET BETTER WAS THAT AT BEDTIME SHE WAS EASIER TO PUT DOWN, BUT AGAIN, WASNT ME THAT PUT HER DOWN. ALTHOUGH 2 OF THE 3 DAYS WE COULDNT GET HER TO CATNAP
What were your A times before each nap and before bedtime for these three days? WE TRIED TO GET PAST 2 HOURS A TIME FOR NAPS, BUT COULD BARELY MANAGE ANYTHNING PAST 2 HOURS. FOR BEDTIME IF THERE WAS NO CATNAP, AFTER HAVING TRIED UNTIL 5PM, WE'D START BED ROUTINE AT 5.45. SO HER A TIME WAS AROUND 2.45 HOURS UNTIL HER ROUTINE. YES I KNOW ITS LONG.
How long was Each Nap? THE MORNING NAPS WERE 40+60 MAYBE. WE TRIED NOT TO GO PAST 90 MINS. THE 2ND NAP WE TRIED TO GET TO 1.5 OR TO 2HOURS, NORMALLY SHE'D WAKE AFTER THE FIRST 40 MINS AND WE'D P/S HER BACK
Do you think she could be ill - ear infection, or teething something like this? SHE SEEMS FINE, DOESNT SEEM TO BE TEETHING YET
Is she hungry, going through a growth spurt? DOESNT SEEM TO BE HUNGRY, NOT MORE THAN USUAL
Are you exclusively BFing or are you pumping? I STOPPED PUMPING A WEEK AGO. WAS B/F EXCLUSIVELY
How many times did she wake in the past three nights and what did you do at the waking? SHE'D NORMALLY WAKE ONLY ONCE, AT MOST TWICE. I'D FEED HER AT ONE OF THE FEEDS, DEPENDING ON THE TIME. NORMALLY FEED HER AT THE 2/ OR 3 AM FEED
Did you try a DF? NO D/F BUT ONCE SHE WOKE 10PM SO I'D FEED HER THEN
How are you extending her nap? PATSHUSH. IF SHE CRIES QUIETLY WE P/S. BUT IF ITS HARD CRYUING WE PICK UP UNTIL CALM. THEN P/S IN BED. Does she scream everytime you lay her flat?NO NOT EVERYTIME. SOMETIMES VERY CALM. SHE DID HAVE REFLUX BUT I AM 100% sure thAT IS NOT A PROB ANYMORE.
My opinion is when babies start to roll over it isn't safe to swaddle anymore. This is my opinion and naturally you can do what you want - but I felt it important to state my opinion. Perhaps, if she is busting her arm out of the swaddle AND rolling, you may want to try swaddling from her armpits down? THE PROB WTH UNDER THE ARM SWADDLING IS HER ARMS FLAIL WILDLY AND ITS HARD TO CALM HER WHEN WE PUT HER DOWN TO BED. LAST NITE, HER ARM CAME OUT AS SHE WAS DRIFITING OFF, I HELD ON TO HER HAND UNTIL SHE WAS FAST ASLEEP TO HELP WITH THE JOLTS. BUT YES, WE WANT TO WEAN HER OFF THE SWADDLE
Are you using a pacifier? NO, NEVER BEEN ADDICTED TO IT
last night we finally got her asleep by 9.30pm, she rolled over in the nite, but both arms were out anyway. she woke at 6.30 am. And we are starting our day now. I suspect last nite was so bad because she was so overtired, didnt have any decent naps in the day. we'll start again today and try to figure out what's wrong.
Thanks zoey.... appreciate your support sooooooooooooo much!
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You're welcome sweetie, I am determined to figure this out with you! Even if we are here for a year LOL - Just kidding of course! :-*
Ok a few more questions.
1) When you put her down for a nap, tell me how you do this. Are you patting her all the way til she is asleep ever?
2) When you say - She can barely make it 2hours of A times... what does she do that makes you think this? Are you trying to extend the A time by 5 mins every 2-3 days? For those 5 mins you can walk around the house, or read a book, or practice rolling, or anything like this just to extend it. What is she doing? I ask this because she is missing her catnap and going 45mins PLUS past the 2h mark - I am just trying to figure out why she 'can't' in the daytime?
3) So you are formula feeding now?
4) Does she sleep better on her tummy? Or no difference? How are you planning to wean the swaddle. Is she 5.5m now?
Zoe
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Lets hope this wont last a year eh? LOL
1) Okay this is what we do for naps. After about 1h30 - 1h45 awake, we go upstairs, put on her special music, dim lights, and start reading books. She enjoys this, trying to head butt them or eat them! But as soon as she arches her back and starts grizzling, this is her cue that she is tired. (Sometimes she yawns and rubs eyes). THen I cuddle her for a bit, put her in cot, swaddle her. All the while talking softly. Then switch lights off, and pat her on her chest while holding her hands with the other hand. ANd lately yes, we p/s till she's fast asleep. I normally sit with her for a bit too. We were hoping we'd progress to p/s for a bit then walk out while she's sleepy, but because there have been some hiccups along the way we've gone back to sitting with her.
2) I'm afraid of missing her sleep window, so we go upstairs to her room, and go thru the steps i outlined above. We have actually come from something like 1h50m to close to 2h now, but i think it will be a couple of wks b4 we get to 2h15. We have better chance of extending the awake time with the 1st nap because she's had more hours asleep. its the 2nd nap and catnap that we have trouble extending the time. Do u think we are spending too much time winding down in her room? It takes about 10-15 mins from time we walk in to lights off.
3) No, 100% breast feeding
4) You know, she appears to really like her tum. She just gets frustrated when her arm gets stuck. But I've noticed that if she manages to roll over and not get her arm stuck, then yes, she sleeps quite well. We are planning to wean her off the swaddle by keeping one arm out first. But, if her arm is flailing wildly, then this is the plan :
Lay her on blanket, swaddle right arm, tuck under. Then bring left arm down, bring blanket over but DONT tuck in. Once she is asleep and not jolting, then i gently bring that left arm OVER the blanket, then tuck the blanket under.
She does have a Grobag sleep sack but the arm thing... FUnnily enuf, DH yday put her down for her nap and left the arm out and she slept ok. But with the other naps, didnt work, my guess is that she was overtired and hence jolting.
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Oh, she is corrected age , 5 months 5 days!! Actual age, 6 mths 5 days
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Well goodness I am gonna move in with you if this goes on for a year! LOL
1) Ready? Ok! For the first nap, I don't want you to enter the nursery until 1h and 50mins has gone by since she woke up. I know it will be hard, but bring your books down stairs and head butt them there lol. It seems she is associating her room with sleep - I don't think it's odd at all that once in there she start yawning and all that. So, don't enter the SLEEP room til 1h50m from when she woke up. She is desperately asking for more A time, and we need to accommodate her. After 1h50m then go up to her room, dim the lights, put on the music, and read a book, when it's done change her, swaddle her (or not) and sit for a moment for a cuddle - then into the crib. It should take about 10mins, no more. Now, my love - holding her hands, and patting her to sleep are going to become, if not already props - I suggest stopping this! So, we are in the crib and we say I love you cutie pie, see you when you wake up or whatever - and we leave! Wait outside her room, if she cries properly, A Mom I need you NOW! Cry, you go back in, and do your pat/shh thing. You slow your pat/shh when you see she is beginning to settle, and stop - leaving a hand on her for a moment to be sure she will still be going along ok. Then, when she is carrying on by herself you let go and you step back and let her do her thing. You go back to her only if she cries a proper cry again, and repeat. I can tell you these things will be easier to wean now then months from now. She is 5months and it isn't unrealistic for her to be able to do this, know what I mean? For the second nap and before the catnap, you go up there at 2h exactly for 3 days, then 2h5m for 3 days then 2h10mins for 3 days then 2h15m and stay there for a bit. Each time doing your 10mins wind down when you get up there. After the catnap, she will, as you know - not be able to handle a full A time, but stick with your 10min wind down time, after the bath, top off.
2) Again, I think you are spending far too much time in her room if you go up at 1h30m. It's good she associates her room with sleep - but going up there too early is going to make her feel sleepy. It is very common to have the SHORTEST A time first, then longer as the day goes on, because the first nap is viewed as an extension of night sleep. So, if any are to be 2h - its this one, with the rest being 2h15m-2h30m. I think if you stop going up to her room so soon and having this long drawn out wind down, you may start to see she can actually tolerate 2h plus, great.
3) OK! Awesome!
4) Well, some babies perfer tum sleeping. You will have to discuss tummy sleeping with your pedi because of SIDS and all that jazz though. What ever swaddle wean you choose just be sure she isn't going to get tangled up in all of it. Also, remember LOTS of tummy time and rolling practice during A time, perhaps right after her nap would be a good time, so she get learn to roll and get her arm unstuck and all that. If the wean arm thingy doesn't work, you can also just cold turkey it lol.
Also, don't forget all the other stuff from before. I think your short napping is the props, and her screaming for some more A time. For props think of this - if you hold her hands and pat all the way to sleep - each time she wakes (they come to a very light sleep at 30-45mins - and if things aren't just so they can wake up - which is fine unless....) she will cry for you to come and re-create all those lovely things you do to help put her to sleep. If you just pat/shh her til she is settling and going off, then let her do the rest, and help her less and less as time goes by - she will be learning how to self soothe and can do that for herself when/if she wakes up. If you are always holding her hands etc, she isn't going to figure out what she should be doing with them - know what I mean?
Ok, that's all I have for now. I know it seems like you will be pat/shhing your life away, but doing the things you are may seem to be making it easier now, but in the long run - its going to be harder to wean them as she gets older. Besides we want her to sleep independently right? ;) :-* :-* :-*
Love,
Zoey
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PS, have I mentioned that she is absolutely adorable? Well she IS!
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Zoey you're an angel :)
Okay. Have read thru your post and have printed it so can refer to it. We'll follow your plan for the naps starting tomorrow. Have a few questions though.
Today, she woke at 6.30 am. Morning nap was 1h40, afternoon nap was 35+50+50, woke her up as it was close to her next feed. That was at 2.45 (we started the day a bit early so her feeds all were a bit early too). So technically, her catnap should be around 4.45 right? Trouble i've found is, if she sleeps past 5 then she seems to be very awake for her bedtime. And what I'm finding hard to juggle is the time after catnap, and when to start her bed routine. Today, her catnap was from 4.50 (took a while to put down) and I woke her at 5.10, a 20min nap. Thought I'd start her feed & routine at 6.10, but started at 6pm as she seemed a tad grumpy. Well, around 6.20 we went back to her room for book reading. She was grumpy. So put her in cot, swaddled, and I kept the light on a bit as that seemed to calm her. Then, lights out, and her arm came out of the swaddle and the screaming started. ANyway. The point is, that I never know when to start her bed routine as it depends on so many things - what time she woke, quality and lenght of naps, her catnap. ANd I always seem to get it wrong! It's quite frustrating. She finally went to bed at 7.45pm, but was all jerky, I believe cos she was overtired.
So, starting tomorrow, once she cries for help, i walk in, and p/s then when she's calm i stop. What if she screams. Do i pick her up to calm? Then put her down and p/s. And if she calms, do i stay in the room waiting? Or walk out?
Also, when all her A times are extended, it would appear that her catnap wld start really late. For instance:
0700 Wake and eat
0900 Nap 1.5 hrs
1030 wake
1100 Eat
1.15 nap 1h45m
3.00 wake and eat
5.15 (2h15m activity) start catnap????
Then, she'd wake at 5.45 and to me, this seems really late to be waking given her bedtime will be around 7pm. What do u think?
Y'know, spoke to DH yday and we said for kiddo#2 (not for a while yet !!!) we'd start over, and hopefully learn from our mistakes. I've actually started a journal, so that when #2 comes I can read thru it and see where I went wrong so we dont make the same mistakes!! Also so that Mira can read it when she becomes a mum because I'm sure she'll have loads of questions for me ! (and, so that when she's a teenager and wants her curfew extended to go to some party I can say "No, because when you were a baby, you were bla bla bla" and actually have proof ;) )
PS If i lived in the US I'd take u up on your offer to move in and help sort out probs out LOL
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:-*
For the catnap - this may help...
If she sleeps for 1h30m she can then stay up for 2h-2h15m-2h30m on that much sleep - she (will) tolerates this well. So, if her catnap is only 30mins - which is what it should be - she can't handle a whole full A time before bed because we just use this wee nap as a tiny booster to get us to bed. I'd say she could be up 1h30m/1h45m after the catnap - maybe more, maybe less - you will have to test it out lol - but that's easy to do. That means she should be in the crib at the end of that time - or she crosses into overtired land, and vacationing there isn't so great. If she can only handle 2h-2h15m of A time all day long, it wouldn't make sense that she could stand more then that at the end of the day, especially on a 30min nap. Make sense? So with A times increased it will be:
0700 Wake and eat - A time begins here
0850 Wind down
0900 Nap 1h30m - A time ends here = 2h
1030 wake - A time begins here
1100 Eat
1235 Wind down
1245 nap 1h45m - A time ends here = 2h15m
230 wake - A time begins here
300 Eat
440 Wind down
445 Catnap 30mins - A time ends here = 2h15m
515 wake - A time begins here
6/615 Eat, bath, top off, wind down
645/7pm Sleep - A time ends here = 1h30m/1h45m
Really try to limit her naps - especially the first one, I know it's hard to wake them - I wake my son at every AM nap- EVERYDAY lol. We need to strike a balance, waking her and spreading her day sleep out over the entire day nicely will help do this. I think sticking to times as best you can will be helpful to her, she needs you to teach her what to expect - if things happen at a different time each night - she won't know what to do and what to expect - does that make sense? If the clock is hard to watch, keep track of her A times in your head - regardless of what time anything was - have her in bed 1h30m/1h45m after the last wake up and that should be safe.
If she screams? Well my love - she is going to scream cause you are changing things, its her way of communicating. She would probably much rather you stay and put her to sleep then having to do it herself - but she needs to. I would not pick her up unless she is frantic. Not just crying - frantically crying. Put her on your shoulder while you are standing - no swaying or bouncing, just pat her back and shhh or hum, whatever. When she is calming down, put her back in the crib and pat/shh more in there. Other then that frantic part, I wouldn't pick her up at all. She will cry, but she will be ok - it isn't hurting, she is just tired, frustrated, stuff like this.
When she starts to mantra cry or seems to be settling, as if she is going off to sleep - this is when you want to try not to touch her - let her do this by herself. When she starts this settling, this is when you are going to slow your pat, and stop - see if she is still ok, and let go. Step back and listen, if she is going off ok - you can leave or you can duck out of site and be quiet if you want to, go back to her if she cries saying I need you. Help her as much as she needs, no more, no less - its her job to fall asleep, not your to make her.
I don't think you are making ANY mistakes, None. These babies don't come with directions LOL. Your next baby probably won't have any trouble sleeping at all LOL. Really, you and your baby are learning together what she needs - these aren't mistakes. You know what else? Eventually this is all going to click into place - and then you are going to be helping other mums with similar troubles and the prospect of a new baby - you will say BRING IT ON! LOL - you watch!
Ok, I'm off - I hope this helps some!
Love,
Zoey
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what a disaster! Today is off to a bad start. Last nite, she woke 1030pm as she flipped over, and i thought may as well feed her. That went ok. Then she woke at 5.30am. I went in and she had flipped over. This was 7 hrs from last feed and i was unsure whether to feed her as it was so close to 7am. Tried to resettle but she began crying, so thought "ok, she's awake and must be hungry" so fed her. Well, tried to put her down after but she was pretty wide awake. Cried. Arm out. P/S didnt work. At this stage was about 6.25 so thought, I'll just leave her here. She ws just crying softly. went to make a cuppa tea, heard her crying softly, then quiet.. thought wow she's asleep. But a few mins later, soft crying again, then at 6.55 bang on screaming. So walked in, made the room bright and woke her up to start the day. Changed nappy. Then continued to finish off the feed. She was so sleepy. I mean, at this stage she'd been up for 2 hours right? Well... I decided to put her down to sleep at 7.30 am!!! This is really going to mess up the day!!!!
Think i'm gonna have to play this day by ear.... ??? :-\
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Just do your best. Lemme tell you hunny - we very rarely have a perfect day LOL. Each day is a new adventure for most of us. Developmental milestones, like rolling, you just kinda have to ride the wave and offer lots of time to practice. Today may be off, but it will also make you appreciate the days that aren't so off, more!
It will be ok - keep with the idea of Easy, eat, play, sleep - feed her at her feed times and put her down when she seems sleepy and do your best at the times. Tomorrow is a new day my friend!
Good Luck!
Zoey
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Gotta ditto Zoey - there really is hardly ever a perfect day. Just keep at it and go with the flow. Change takes time and that's okay.
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(I know you're probably shaking your head and saying "oh no not HER again"... sorry... )
Well, it's day 2 of us trying to get her to sleep on her own. And it ain't goin' too well! I suppose I can't expect miracles, but because we had considerably fast results with cutting out the props (b/f to sleep and rocking) I kinda hoped this would be a piece of cake too.
The first time we did it, it went kinda well. Walked out door, she cried softly, for few mins then hard on crying. So went in, didnt pick up, lay a hand on her till she calmed, then closed eyes (moved hand) then she slept. Well, this nap only lasted 30 mins then it was impossible to get her to sleep again. Needless to day, she was very overtired at bedtime and it was a 3 hour struggle to get her to sleep. She woke once at 1 am wher i fed her, then again around 7ish.
Today, kinda same thing. The first nap was (Relatively) okay, as in, she still did cry, but wasn't hysterical so all she needed was a hand to calm her. I know it may be better to go cold turkey but I want to ease her into this new change. The other naps - no go. The catnap, we went out, hoping she'd sleep but she didnt. SO came home, got her into her cot at 4.50pm (She woke from her las tnap at 2.50pm) and did the whole swaddle, kiss, walk out. She cried for a minute, then babbled, then cried, then coo'd, then cried then REALLY CRIED. So walked back in but she just was inconsoloable until i picked her up. Thing is, after a few of this, i put her down at 5.05 and thought "this is ridiculous, i need her to wake by 5.15" so at 5.10 i took her out of the room. Started the bed routine at 5.45 and DH with her now trying to get her to sleep. I figured, i am the weakest link what with being equipped with the boob-machine, and I cave and get so frustrated, that DH will be the one to get her used to the 'new' way....
So, is it really sposed to be this hard?? I'm sure the answer is "yes but it will get better". Sigh... i just want it to get beter soon... i started this thread weeks ago... :( Guess i'm so frustrated cos it was getting better, and now that we are introducing the concept of getting her to sleep TOTALLY independently, it's just getting worse...
Trying to introduce a lovey, but she hasn't taken to anything yet. And she doesnt like sucking on her thumb - this girl is determined to get to sleep the hard way!!
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I know you're frustrated and I'm sorry. I wish I or someone had answers for you. There are a few things I know: Babies don't sleep well with props, babies don't sleep well with inadequate A times. You did an awesome job weaning the BFing to sleep, and rocking - but you kind of replaced those props with other things to put her to sleep, know what I mean? I know it's hard, really I do - I have been where you are.
That said, you have to remember something. There is no right and wrong in this. If you want to rock, cuddle, hold, put you baby to sleep - whatever way, that is perfectly fine. It's about what works for you and your baby. If teaching her how to sleep isn't something that goes along with your family plan - then don't do it. All I can do is point out things that could potentially be standing in her way of sleeping - and offer solutions. It is completely up to you what you do with what is suggested lol.
So, do what you want sweetie. There are no rules, just suggestions. If you were happy where things were before you introduced the notion of teaching sleep - then don't, that is ok. If she is sleeping well for her naps and only waking twice in the night to feed, and is cranky at bedtime - that's VERY good compared to issues other mums are having, and maybe that's where you should stop. If you think you putting her to sleep is an issue, then wean it out. It's all your choice, and we will support you with what you want to do. You understand she needs to be awake a certain amount of time before she can sleep a good nap, and that her not becoming overtired is important. Tweak her routine as you see fit.
If you want to continue onward with teaching her that she doesn't need you to put her to sleep, then I am your cheerleader. Decide how you want sleep to go for your DD, what you are willing to do and not do, make a plan with DH and we will help you sort out any kinks that may be there.
I am sorry things are so difficult. I wish I could help you more.
Love,
Zoey
Oh and I would never think - "Oh no not her again" LOL - I feel badly that things aren't the way you want them, I will try to help you any way I can. Perhaps take a break and regroup, figure out what you want to try to do for her and we can make a plan for that. HUGS
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Zoey, thanks , that was really sweet. I can say that i think one of the most important things to me now (as it has been for the last 6 mths...) is to get her to sleep independently, and stay asleep! So I want to persevere with this. And I look forward to having Zoey the Cheerleader (with Owen the mascot) there!
Day 3 : Noticed that night time, she actually went down quite easily. PUt her in cot, walked out door, cried. Then LOUD crying, went back in. Put hand on her, put her little stuffed toy (hopingthat will be her lovey) on her, and she kinda moved head side to side, closed eyes. At this stage, moved hand. Walked out door. Then, 30 mins later, loud noise woke her. hard crying. Had to pick up. Sang a lullaby, she calmed. Put her in cot at 7.45pm, same as above. Slept for 2 hours, woke 9.45, fed (last feed was 5.45pm), down easily, slept 5 hours, woke 3.30am, fed, down easily. Had to wake her at 7am.
First nap - easy to put down, well, when i say easy, i mean, she cried, after hard crying, walked in, hand on her to calm her, and she closed eyes, Hand off. she slept. walked out. But lasted only 30 mins. Inconsolable. then she just started babbling! So sleep was called off.
Am I doing this right? Thing is, it's so hard to listen to her cry cry cry. Also, if she is softly crying for say 5-10 mins, alone, is this not the same as CIO? It then escalates to "get back in here now!!", which of course we do. Do you think we shld leave it a bit longer b4 going in? She thrashes about so hard until we pick her up to calm her. Do you think we shld be putting her back in faster? Like, as soon as she calms, pop her back in cot (this is like pupd then isnt it?). I'm just concerned that she knows we'll come back in.. she KNOWS we'll pick her up if she cries hard enough... So at the moment, walking out the door the first time, she has cried all the time. So we've had to go in. SOmetimes we pick up, sometimes not. But not been able to stay out. We do seem to be taking 2 steps fwd, 1 step back, so this is positive.
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Page 4 already! wow. Because of time diff, thought i'd put out a post b4 i retired for the night.
Problem today has been she can only sleep for 30 mins. This is today's routine :
0710 wake and eat
(start windown 9.00, swaddled 9.20, asleep 9.30, woke 10.00)
1000 wake from 30 min nap
1100 E
1200 start windown
1220 S
1250 wake
1.25 S (took that long to get her to sleep again)
2.00 wake
3.00 E
4.15 S
4.40 wake
5.15 start bedroutine, starting wth a feed - but she wasn't very hungry. She was tired. But wasnt sleepy after her bath. So took her out of nursery for some quiet time in my room. Tried again to read books etc at 6.15. Tried everything, she was just hysterical. Finally, out of sheer exhaustion she fell asleep at 7.35 only to wake at 8.05. DH upstairs.. again.. to try to get her to sleep.
I'm guessing this 30m sleep is due to being o/t. But that doesnt really explain the morning nap, where she slept pretty well the night b4. Looking back on my day log for her, she managed a semi long nap yesterday afternoon, but all the others have been 30m spells.
I'm not quite sure where we're going wrong with this. Any thoughts? Try to ensure that hands are removed from her body b4 she is asleep. Trying to wean the patshush but she still seems to need it. She also needs to be picked up at least once, due to her hysterics. I can tell, she's gonna be a real drama queen LOL (one has to laff when one is under extreme stress eh?)
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Hi hun!
WOW, you are doing SOOOO great!!!!!!!!! Day three looks AWESOME!
I would try not to pick her up. Crying is normal, crying hard is normal, sobbing is normal. If she is frantic and hysterical is the only time you should pick her up. When I did pat/shh I never picked up - he was 4m old. I did all my soothing in the crib, always. Picking up is tricky, you may just start teaching her, if you cry hard enough, I will pick you up. You want her to find a way to soothe herself, she can only do this is she is crying.
I think if a loud noise scares her awake, Yes definately pick her up and calm her down and then try fo help her back to sleep because she was startled awake and that's scarey. But other then that, as hard as it is, I would try your best to not pick her up. You aren't hurting her, you are right there, patting and shhhing that is comforting enough - we don't want to teach her - cry hard, get picked up. If she falls asleep from exhaustion that is OK - really.
Remember it's not your job to put her to sleep or to make her stop crying, you are there patting and shhing to help keep her clam so she can manage sleep - you pat/shh right on through her hard crying, at times it may seems she is inconsolable. I remember feeling like, OMG nothing makes him stop crying, nothing comforts him. Owen would CRY SO HARD and it was so hard to listen too, but I am telling you, it's just crying - he was ok and he learned how to soothe himself. I was right there with him, while he worked through his emotions and fond a way to settle and soothe himself, supporting him. There is crying and alot of it, that's why sleep training is NOT fun! LOL - but seriously, it has to get really bad before it can ever get better. Try to limit your picking up for when its really needed.
Crying;
If its a mantra cry, or a fuss, or a whine - she doesn't need you in there. If it is a cry that says, I NEED YOU NOW! She needs you. Every baby has a different mantra cry so I can't tell you if its that or not - but a mantra is the same kinda sound over and over, not changing in any dramatic way. Like waaa waaa waaa waaa waaa. When baby cries Tracy said to stop and listen for a moment, assess the cry then act. So, listen for a moment figure out what's going on, then if its a real cry go right in, if not hang back and wait and see what happens.
That tossing about could be her way of settling herself. Again, try not to pick her up. If she needs help settling use your pat/shh tool. If you want to move to pupd you can, but I really think you can use pat/shh if you stop picking up so much. The difference is, with pupd - when you pick up there is no soothing or comforting while she is up on your shoulder - that is her job - you just pick up and hold for 2-3min and put back down regardless on if there is crying or not. You picking up alot with pat/shh and calming her down and putting her back in - isn't teaching her anything but - Ok I cry really hard I get picked up.
Todays routine:
Ok she woke at 7am, and didn't go to sleep until 930am - she was overtired and so she couldn't settle enough to get through the 30min mark. My suggestion from below is:
0700 Wake and eat - A time begins here
0850 Wind down
0900 Nap 1h30m - A time ends here = 2h
2h30m is too long for her first A time, most often babies do their shortest A time first. SO 7am to 930am was probably too much for first thing in the morning.
What did you do at 10am when she woke? The ideal thing would be to go to her and attempt to use pat/shh to extend the nap - pat/shh for 40mins - if it didn't work then stop because it will be near feed time. Feed at 11am, then watch for sleepy cues and attempt a nap when you see them - OR when 45mins has gone by, attempt a nap. If she was up from 7am to 930am and only slept 30mins and then was up until 1.25 - see what I am saying? This is waaay too long so she was overtired again, this is that overtired circle I was talking about. So really try to stick with the routine, its really important to catch these windows when they happen.
You are doing so well, try to get into that routine, and I think things may go a bit easier. Sleep training is even more difficult when baby is wicked overtired - know what I mean?
I hope this helps! Keep up the great work, I am proud of you for sticking with this.
Love,
Zoey
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Hiya, I know what ya mean about the o/t. But to be honest, i kept waiting for the "signs" but just didnt see them! But will be more vigilant today. I was hoping she'd have a good 1st nap 'cos I wanted to take her to 'test drive' some high chairs as i want to start solids soon LOL Guess will have to wait till we have the sleep nipped in the bud.
In answer to your question, after she woke, kept p/s for a good while, but didnt work, so yes, when it was closed to the feed, the p/s stopped.
Yea when she was moving round the bed, the time she was on her tum and couldn't turn over that's when i stepped in. It is hard isn't it? Listening to them cry. Her cry has become hoarse too, gosh, just breaks your heart! Well, back to sleep now (4.30 am, she woke and fed her). xox
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Oooo shhh - you need to sleep!
I would not look for signs at the first nap, just go with the 2h of A time- be sure she is in the crib at the 2h mark. After that, the rest of the day if you wanna look for signs, have at it - but this first nap is what is going to set the tone for your whole day. Going down too early like before - she wasn't tired enough, and waiting too long like 930, is too long.
I always put Owen down for his nap and while he is sleeping I get everything ready to go out and the moment he wakes, I toss at bottle into him and we are out the door! When he was doing 2-215 A times, I knew we'd have about 2h before we needed to be back for a nap. Making sure she doesn't nap in the car is a good plan, because that will ruin a nap (unless of course you go out in the thrid A time and have her catnap on the way home!). That was/is DH's job in the car - to keep Odog awake LOL - which in turn, amuses me! LOL
Anyhow, try to have her down at the 2h mark and see how things go, extend with pat/shh if she wakes early, and if you don't get a good nap longer then an hour - know that you will have to watch for cues or when 45mins goes by, put her back down.
Good Luck!
Zoey
Now go to sleep woman!
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Just a quickie. DD woke at 0700, by 0900 was in bed, but only fell asleep by 0915 ( had to pick up). She woke 30 mins later. Hard to put back down to sleep. Whats with the 30 min waking? I can see today is going to be another day of 30m naps
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Today she was in bed by 9 and asleep by 915 - this is good.
Yesterday she was asleep by 930am - not so good. I am not sure about the other days, but my point is today was good - it takes a few days of the routine being consistently 'good' to see things change. Also, you are sleep training too - nothing is right the first few days of sleep training. She is mad, frustrated, things are all confusing to her because you have changed the rules - this is normal sweetie! If you stay completely consistant, with sleep traning, and her routine - everyday - it will improve.
On Oct 2nd you posted this:
"Today, she woke at 6.30 am. Morning nap was 1h40" - how long was she awake before this nap?
Zoe
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On the oct 2nd,she woke at 6.30, was asleep by 8.10 and slepty 1h40m.
Didnt get her to extend her nap, only 30m. For nxt nap, going to try to w2s by going in at 20m and waiting for her to stir and laying hands, see if that will work. Will try that few times b4 actually trying to wake her. And if cant extend, i'm thinkking of doing pu/pd. She had to be picked up numerous times and was inconsolable. sheesh!
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Ok, keep me posted - or post over there! Up to you!
Love,
Zoey
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I am ashamed to say last nite was the worst. First, here is what happened :
0700 Wake and eat
0915-0945 S
1100 E
1150-1.30 S (stirred at 30m mark but managed to gently pat back to sleep, she didnt wake fully)
3.00 E
3.50 - 4.25 S (she woke naturally from this catnap)
5.30 Start bedroutine
10.00PM FINALLY ASLEEP!
As you can see, the fact that she didnt have a long nap for the 1st one threw the day, as it was an early wake up so everything was brought forward. But at night, it was non stop crying/screaming for FOUR . I was woried it may be a growth spurt, so fed her at 8.45. She calmed. Put her in cot - awake. But Ileft her to it, she was scootching around, flipping back and forth for 20 mins crying softly then it was hard. DH took over. Think it was just too much too bear, but he began swaying ... she finally calmed. Popped her in cot, she slept finally.
So, the stress was bad, we fed and swayed. She woke again at 11pm I was convinced it was a growth spurt so fed again. But she didnt wake till I woke her at 7am!
What was the longest you had to endure crying from your LO? Because 4 hrs to me is a really long time :( I cant figure out why at night its so hard to put her down. Sure, she didnt sleep much, but I made sure that her bedtime came early. She cries till she is in such a state that she just can't sleep! aaargh!
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My son has severe reflux so, I have endured literally 12 hours of crying. :'( For sleep training, I honestly can't remember - but it certainly wasn't a picnic - and I was 100% consistent for 8 days.
Speaking of which are you sure she isn't sick or having some reflux relapse, an ear ache, hunger something? It could all be routine related, but I can't help but have a feeling that she is having discomfort, hunger or something. I don't know - please be sure.
You started great, awesome getting her down at 915, really great!! At 945 when she woke from her nap did you attempt to extend it for 40mins? The idea would be attempt til 1025am if no nap get her up as after a 5 min break it would be nearly 11 for a feed. Good job on bring everything forward and not letting her get overtired for the second nap!! AWESOME! After the catnap at 430ish - starting at 530 only give her an hour of awake time? Perhaps that wasn't enough, making her not want to fall asleep - and then she is wound up from crying and then crosses over into being overtired maybe? My suggestion for the last A time is 1h30m-1h45m from when she wakes from the catnap til she is in the crib.
I can't stress consistency enough. I know you want to try pupd, but you do realize there has to be 100% commitment and consistency - right? You know there is no soothing when you Pick up, and there is a TON of crying right? Also, at night with pupd there are no breaks, you do it until sleep - be it 1h, 4h or 8h, naturally that is an extreme but you get my meaning. We don't try to stop crying or prevent it - it is through crying that baby learns to self soothe. Also in pupd we don't switch off, whomever starts a sleep session, finishes it. It hard work, harder then this in my opinion. I don't mean to be harsh - if you want to attempt it, I want you to just be prepared for it.
You are on day 4 of attempting to teach indep sleep - 4 hours is alot of crying and I am sorry - but you are teaching a new skill and with that there are regressions. It has to get worse before it gets better. Sometimes when the crying is the longest and hardest is when the lessons are learned.
Please be sure she isn't hungry before bed, in pain or having any reflux troubles. Humor me LOL.
Tell me how I can help you. Tons of hugs - I am so glad you got to sleep from 11pm - 7am. That must have felt really great. ;D
Zoey
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I have an appointement with her pediatrician nxt wk. She seems really fine during the day. And she did have reflux (silent) when she was younger, gave meds, went to cranial osteo, and she really seems fine. She was off meds about 6 wks ago. But it's certainly worth a check.
Yep we tried to extend her nap for another 45 mins.
We don't try to stop crying or prevent it - it is through crying that baby learns to self soothe.
Wouldnt you say though in some circumstances that the baby works herself up so much to a frenzy that it's just impossible to get her to sleep? That's why in the past I've taken her out of her room for a few mins to calm her down before starting. When she's in that frenzy her arms come out of swaddle and she is really frantic and just nothing will console her apart from the boob or swaying! DH and I are prepared to have her cry all night while we stay with her to try to soothe and calm, but there will always be that doubt "I wonder if she's hungry, or she must be thirsty after all that screaming". That's why it's better if someone else does it and not me as I cave and lift my tshirt up and that's it! I'm such a pushover ;) And actually, when i pretended to be out of the room during the night, i saw that she rolled over, then rolled back ! But she has never done it in sight of anyone so maybe she's pretending she can't roll back - she's crafty LOL. But I did read that developmental milestones could make a baby hungry... see, that's why she is hard to read. And her cries all sound the same now, although yday she did start a growling sort of cry that i have never heard before.
Back to the ol' drawing board...
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We don't try to stop crying or prevent it .... In PUPD. That whole paragraph was about PUPD. ;D Pupd is a tool meant to teach self soothing, you can't use pupd on a baby that isn't properly crying, we don't try to stop the crying or prevent the crying - it's through the crying that the lesson is learned. It's hard work.
When she's in that frenzy her arms come out of swaddle and she is really frantic and just nothing will console her apart from the boob or swaying!
I used to think this too, as long as you believe these are the only two things that will console her, then yes - it will remain true. I have never had Owen unable to fall asleep - if you stick with it, eventually they always fall asleep. You have to stick with it though. Of course I am sure people take breaks and soothe and comfort with props - but that isn't working for you. She still isn't sleeping, right? ;D If she breaks out of the swaddle, re-do the swaddle and continue! Taking breaks and soothing with props is just prolonging everything. If there is a real need to be met, like hunger - meet it and continue.
I used to think, "There is NO WAY on Earth this baby of mine if going to fall asleep without something in his mouth, or without me holding and rocking or sleeping with him." In fact, the first day it happened, after what seemed like an enternity of trying - I started to bawl - hysterically. You don't believe me when I say I have been where you are. My baby didn't sleep - he took 2, 30min naps ON ME all day and was up every hour all night - he was 3m old. It was hell, and it was hell to fix it - but we did it, together Owen and I did it. He cried so hard sometimes, he would hold his breath, turn purple and then puke. But we stuck with it, everday - everynight, for as long as it took.
You aren't a push over - you care about your baby and there is nothing wrong with that. You don't like to hear her cry, that too is understandable. If DH can do it, awesome - give him cookies and let him do it! I did it all myself, I didn't let DH touch sleep until after we were done LOL! But just know, if someone can't be consistant, if someone can't stand to not cave and give the props, it probably isn't going to work - not the routine, not sleep training.
She is crafty! I think she has your number for sure LOL ;) She is so adorable and precious, and has such an unique face - I just love your avatar! She CAN do this, she CAN sleep without boobs, or swaying, or rocking or anything - I know this to be true! You have all the tools and info sweetie - you know what to do and how to do it - now it just all needs to be done!
Let me know how I can help and how things are going - lots of love and respect,
Zoey
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Hiya! It's nearly bedtime for me now, just wanted to give you the low-down on today.
0710 Wake and E
0920 Slept for 30m (tried extend 45m didnt work,abandoned nap)
1040 E (she seemed hungry couldnt wait till 11)
1200-1230 S, extended from 1.05-1.25 (total 55m)
2.40 E
3.40 Catnap 20m only
Started massage, bath, feed at 5.15
7.00pm S, woke at 7.40pm
9.pm E (she seemed hungry), didnt fall asleep at breast
9.40pm S
So naps were disaster, tried to bring the day fwd. Btw, after feeding her at the 5.15, she seemed awake but quiet so i lay her on my bed and sang songs to her. When I took her into nursery to hand over to DH, she seemed rather agitated... this has never happened. WOndering if that was her being tired, or something to do with the room.
I am goin to keep at this until nxt Friday. If things dont improve, and the doc gives the go-ahead, then think we need to start pu/pd. I know to get pupd to work the routine needs to be in place. But how can her routine be in place when she is only taking 30m naps? I still dont get why she just struggles to sleep at night. This has been going on for nearly 3wks. She is much easier to put down for naps now, which is great (walk out room, walk in and normally only have to pick her up once to reassure her). But the bedtime sleep is like the Hammer House of Horror - all that screaming!!
(zoey - wanted to say that owen looks like he's got some pretty impressive biceps!!). Right - off to bed for mummy!
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You sleep tight!
LOL - he is a stud muffin!! LOL, must be all those baby push ups!! ;D ;D ;D
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I'm sorry, I know I seem to be the most anxious mum out there who seems like she is clueless and has no idea what to do with her baby.
But. Today she refused the first nap, and only had 15m for 2nd nap, and 15m for catnap. I am keeping withthe 0700 wakings, keeping her up for 1h50-2h for the first nap, and then of course, have to play the day by ear. She seems to be in a pattern of finalling dropping off 9-10pm, and sleeping thru the nite so for that i'm thankful. But she is so o/t during the day, and i'm at a loss of how to target this short napping. I don't wnt to post on the naps site as i think i will confuse everyone so just want to stick to this one as it has my (long) history on it. This is day 6 of not using patshush as a prop, as in, walking out the room. I know it's sunday and i apologise for intruding :(
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This is day 6 of not using patshush as a prop, as in, walking out the room
By this you mean, putting her down after her wind down with kisses and cuddles and leaving - not tending to a mantra, fuss or whine and waiting until she cries properly before going back to her immediately and pat/shhing (your variation) until settling before leaving again - right? ;) Be careful how you word what your doing, you wouldn't want anyone thinking you are letting her CIO - and I know you would never leave Mira alone to cry it out!
You're not intruding ever! You surely aren't cluless either. Anxious maybe, but we all are - I might not show it but I am scared to death inside. https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=65443.0 - here read this, it's pretty uplifting. You aren't alone my dear! :-*
Did you know that babies learn to organize nighttime sleep from 0-3 months and daytime sleep from 3-6 months. Struggles with naps are largely a developmental issue and most find their baby improves around 6 months. Before 6 months we can help a baby learn to nap by using methods like shush pat, wake to sleep, pu/pd etc. It is incredibly common and normal to struggle with naps and not nighttime. You aren't alone, and it will get better.
Did rinajack offer anything that could help with your routine/indep sleep?
Before you put her down for the first nap, does she seems sleepy? Is she going down easier since you began weaning the prop? I am glad you joined the 45m nap support thread - perhaps they can offer some insight. Sometimes it helps too to take a break from everything for a bit and watch baby, putting her down when she seems sleepy, - still not going into using props etc - but more following her lead than the clock and note what she does when, and making a routine around that. Remember Easy is an idea of a sequence of event, Eat, play, sleep. Logically baby needs to be up a certain amount of time before they will need to take a good nap to recharge - this is what you have to figure out, what that amount is. What we suggest is just an average.
All in all, she is sleeping through the night and this is a fantastic thing and it's all because of you and your teaching her that she CAN fall back to sleep when she wakes briefly all by herself! So, by her sleeping through the night, this tells you she is able to re-settle if needed. Many mums would give their right arm for that LOL. So, even though its bad, it could be worse right? I think it's in the routine - which is something you are going to have to work with since you know her and can see her sleepy cues and all that stuff.
Lastly if you have a day of poor naps, you kind of have to try an get one somehow. Remember your catnap is free, so if she napped reall ybad all day, start that nap a bit early and do what you can to help her fall to sleep. Will she sleep in the swing, the car, the stroller, the bouncey seat?
Zoey
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Hi - first, yes, do the whole routine, kiss, cuddle, swaddle, "see ya later 'gator" talk lights out then leave - and put ear to door waiting for that yell! Dont leave her to CIO she's my precious babygirl i want to be with her when she cries ;)
Today playing it more by ear watching sleep cues. She cries as soon as i switch lights out. then when the cries escalate, go in, and she goes down - but woke in 5-10mins three times. She is sleeping now. Mind boggling!
And to make things all that more interesting, we are going to the docs tomorrow for her immunisation jabs so thats going to make her all touchy ::) But if all is okay, and if things aren't improving with her naps .. then... i think it's time for the big PU/PD... would you agree?
And yes, i know that i have been lucky inthe last 3 wks that she wakes at most once a night, and normally sleeps thru till 7, aftger waking for a feed anytime between 9-11. And i bet as soon as the naps are sorted out she'll start waking LOL
Side note - yday after her horrible naps, her bedtime routine was brought a bit earlier at 5.15 (massage bath feed cuddle books), and she did go down to sleep quite well, by 6.20. Woke again10m later, but was down again by 7.15. I literally had to hold her hands down during the jolts though, as she was so o/t. I know that it may become a prop if used consistently but figured she needed some help last night. She woke twice after an hour each, i fed her at the 2nd waking, then she was down from 10-7.
(and i do know about the 0-3 4-6 months sleep developing. I've read books by Karp, Sears, Pantley, Ford, Weissbluth, Mindell, Leach and of course, Hogg ;) No time for other books at all!)
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Wow all those books eh? LOL
Well, if you can be 100% consistant and not cave and use your breast to soothe, and you can deal with the HELLA crying - then sure give it a go. But, like I said before - it isn't easy, or fast. :-* We suggest commiting 2 weeks to pupd and that means being home for all sleeps so you can teach. If you are completely commited and do it correctly it shouldnt take that long - but if you start you have to be willing to go the long haul with my cheerleading butt beside you!
Overtired babies always need a bit more help, yup. 10-7pm rocks! Awesome!
You may not wanna start pupd right after her shots if she gets ouchy from them - no pupd for babies in pain cause we don't put expectations on babies in pain. In preparation, maybe have a read of all those posts in the pupd Faq - if you haven't already of course.
Have a great night/day? LOL
Zoey
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Bit of a problem. Weighed her on Monday, and in a month she has put on hardly ANY weight :( I'm not sure why, but i think part reason is that she used to have 2 feeds or so a night. Now she sleeps thru it's a prob. So my mission right now is to help her gain some weight. I'm topping up her feeds in the day with EBM and also feeding her at night now, and actually, "willing" her to wake up so i can feed her.
Her naps are a bit better, at least we are back to 45m nap and yday she slept 1h20m after EBM top up. I'm going to see how things progress over the next few days, and am not going to jump to pupd but just stick with what we are currently doing. Also she has just been vaccinated so giving her some TLC.
I'll be back though.. ;)
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;) Good Luck!
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I'm ba-ack! Didja miss me? :)
Anyway. think DD is gonna be ok with her weight, pede is not worried, and she is thriving etc.
I'm afraid to say, for the last 2 wks, we've done the whole "put in cot and walk out hoping she'd settle" and she hasn't. Not once. Always have to go in. And a couple of times managed to get her to sleep without picking up. And sometimes I get SOO close. But most of the time, she is beside herself all upset so i have to pick up to sing lullaby - that seems to be the ONLY thing that works. And of course, that is now the prop du jour!
I'm tired. I So want her to be able to go to sleep on her own. Do you think i shld tackle pu/pd now? I also think i shld start it and be the one to do it. I am so determined to make it work. And i am worried about inconsistencies if someone else does it along with me. I'm expecting it to be a hard 2 wks, with very little sleep for me, and a lot of heartache. But that is a small price to pay for her to be able to go to sleep on her own.
She still needs to be swaddled. She protests, but that seems to be the thing that will keep her arms from flailing. I've tried to let her suck, but it just doesnt seem to SOOTHE her. She doesnt suck her thumbs, more like fingers and sometimes pokes her eyes doing it.
So, tell me, is it "time" for pu/pd? Looking forward to hearing what u think.. "You're my only hope obi-wan"....
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Hello there!
I'm afraid to say, for the last 2 wks, we've done the whole "put in cot and walk out hoping she'd settle" and she hasn't. Not once. Always have to go in. And a couple of times managed to get her to sleep without picking up. And sometimes I get SOO close. But most of the time, she is beside herself all upset so i have to pick up to sing lullaby - that seems to be the ONLY thing that works.
Read this. I am not sure how you are going to do pupd if you think the only way she can settle is to pick her up and sing a lullaby? Now, don't get me wrong, I am all for pupd for the right situation. I am not for babies crying for no reason. I ask you the same question I did before you began topping off before naps - Can you not cave in, for as long as it takes, for as many pick ups that it takes, for however long it takes? Can you handle her crying/screaming? Any crying that she has done with pat/shh - could be MILD compared to how it may be with PUPD, in my experience. There is no picking up and singing or Bfing or anything like that. Can you do that?
If the answer is yes, the give it a go. If you don't think you can deal with her crying, or having to do pupd at 4am for as long as it takes for her to go to sleep - then don't begin. Don't begin unless you can be consistent, commited, until she learns.
I don't mean to be a hard-butt - I am just taking our history here, and my experience with pupd and trying to make sure you are jumping into something you can't handle. I don't want your baby girl to cry for nothing, and I don't want you to feel like you failed. Before you do any pupd - I suggest reading through some of the posts over there to get an idea of how not quick, how not easy this tool is. Also read through the Faq we have put together - especially this one: https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=36950.0
If you think this is something you can do and stick with through the good, the bad, and the ugly - then go post. If not, then I wouldn't start it. This is my honest no suger-coating opinion, for what's its worth!
Love,
Zoey
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Hi zoey
I dont need sugar coating advice (i'm on a diet ;D ) , so thanks ;) I'm glad you put all that out there. I thought about it, and tonight took me 2hrs to get her to sleep. y'know, the reason i pick her up and sing a lullaby is that i feel it's "okay" to do so, BECAUSE i'm not doing pu/pd - if that makes sense. I'm still trying to find the thing that calms her, and while she's in her cot, on any one occasion, it can be 3-4 things that calm her. What works now wont necessarily work in 20mins.
I just feel that pu/pd may be necessary (along with any calming in her cot) because i've been doing this current thing for over a wk. Sometimes it's good, most of the time its bad. The nights are always worse. And I know pu/pd is a huge commitment, and its hard (i read the pupd posts daily ..) and its something i've hoped to avoid. But saying that - i am prepared for the crying/screaming.
u have been remarkably patient with me, thanks :-* . If I need to do it, i plan to start on monday, no point waiting for the w/e as i dont want to involve DH anyway - he can be there to give me a back and foot rub instead... I dream of posting on the "post your success story here" and getting Mira in the "Independant Sleeper" hall of fame. Oh also, i believe pupd WILL work because, well because I have to believe it will . I refuse to believe that my DD cant sleep on her own. And I've failed at the other methods, so i will have to suck it up and do the hard yards for her.
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Ok then, do you want my help? ;D
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Hmm...lemme see..... do i want your help.... hmmmm...
HELL YEA! We're a team, you me mira and owen! ;)
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LOL LOL! ;D I was just making sure!
Ok, do you wanna stay here, or move to the PUPD board - you may get more advice and opinions and hugs with a new thread because sometimes when they get this long people assume we are chatting about the weather and don't tend to read lol. You are going to need some hugs! It's so up to you though!
I have to get Owen up, I'll be back at the PM naptime lol
Love,
Zoe
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how i WISH we were only chatting about the weather!! I"ll start a new thread but post this link on.
Is that owen's halloween costume??? adorable