Author Topic: NWs periodically for hours after bedtime... are these Mantra Cries?  (Read 1819 times)

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Offline jodisully

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Hello,

My DS is 8 weeks old, is bottle fed and is a spirited baby, with touchy tendencies.

We recently stopped using a pacifier at naptime/bedtime, but now once he's down for the night, he wakes every 20mins to 45mins and seems to have a mantra cry. His cries tends to get quite loud and anxious, but I've interpreted it as a mantra cry since the intensity goes up and down, and he seems to settles himself within 5 to 15mins and they are A LOT less intense than his normal cries. (I'm not sure if those are good assumption for defining a mantra cry?!?!). BUT he starts crying again soon afterwards.

Eventually, normally about the 5th or 6th time, it seems to take longer for him to settle and although it still sounds mantra-y, I begin to get worried that he'll get to the point of no return (in which case he'll never get back to sleep) and I go in to do a pu/pd (I've tried shhhs and pats and it doesn't seem to work with him). By this time it's about 9:30pm/10pm, he has a DF at 11pm and he'll sleep until 2am/3am NF.

{{{ FYI We decided to try to stop using his pacifier at naptime/bedtime (even though he really, really liked it) for 2 reasons:
  -He's often burpy, so he was having a hard time keeping it in (even for 5-7mins), but then would get very, very upset when it popped out.  
  -He was having a hard time resettling himself at the 45min mark during his naps, since he was looking for his soother
I was very excited a few days ago, with the help of BW tips, to have him fall asleep, in his crib without his soother YAY! (something NEVER achieved with his older sister!). And as a results his naps have been going much more smoothly.}}}

Here's my question, should I just continue to let him settle himself, or should I intervene? Is it normal to have a mantra cry, 5-6 times in a 2 hour period after bedtime or could it be something else?

We're still working on his EASY (He keeps waking up at 5am) but looks something like this

E 6:00/6:30
A
S 8:30-10 (1.5)

E 10
A
S 11:30-1:30 (2)

E 1:30
A
S 3-4 (1hr)

E 4
A
S 5:30-6 (30mins)

E 6
A Bath
S 7:30pm

Several NWs

DF 11pm

NF 3am

Thanks so much!!
Jodi
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 18:18:36 pm by jodisully »

Offline ZacsMumme

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Re: NWs periodically for hours after bedtime... are these Mantra Cries?
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2012, 00:59:54 am »
Mantra cries are hard to explain as all LOs are different. I never really got DS's mantra until he was 6 months old! That said he didnt really hve one tille then as he suffered from reflux. It is awesome that you are starting to identify between cries :)

This may help you to confirm if you are hearing a mantra :)
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64160.0
This may also help you with working out your LOs NW noises :P
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=180311.0

You mention PU/PD. Your LO is really still too young for this, it can stimulate them. Have you tried just patting, or shhing rather than a combo of the two? I found patting on the bottom to a heartbeat rhythm helped my LO.

It does sound like a lot of NW in a short period. I do wonder if your LO is struggling to get into deep sleep. When you PD at night do you help him through the first 20mins? You may need to do this initially as they can wake themselves when transitioning into deep sleep and stir a lot. THis may be what is happening with your LO :-\

What do you think?

Looking at your EASY your first A looks very long??? Is it 3 hrs (5am-8.30) or am I reading that wrong? I would also try pulling back your afternoon A time closer to 1hr15 and you may find he settles better in the evening :-*

***Sara***
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DS1 - Our sensitive soul. Silent reflux.

DS2 Our cheeky chipmunk. Reflux, MSPI.

Offline jodisully

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Re: NWs periodically for hours after bedtime... are these Mantra Cries?
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2012, 16:31:40 pm »
Thanks ZacsMumme for your reply!
I think you're right, that I may need to help during the first 20mins or so to get him settled. I have started to do that for the last few naps and last night at bedtime --- The ssshhhs/pats have been working (instead of PU/PD), if I do it from the get go (the minute he starts to make noise)... I was just worried that I might be making him dependent on me to help him get off to sleep and wanted to make sure I wasn't committing an accidental parenting act, if he was trying to settle himself.

Yes, a 5am to 8.30 would be a long activity time :) Lately I've been giving him soother time (while he sleeps) if he wakes up before 6am, just so that I can start my day at a reasonable hour..

The last 3 nights have looked like this...

He wakes at 3am, I'm able to shhh/pat him until about 4am, at that time I feed him, and then he wakes up at 5am or so.
If I feed him right at 3am, he'll sleep for about an hour then be up at 4:30am and impossible to settle.
He consistently wakes up at 3am (even if I've feed him at midnight or 1am) so it made be think it was a learnt behaviour.

Any tips for fixing this 3am to 6am fussy time would be very helpful!!!

Thanks again for your help above! You are a life saver... it's so nice to have some help during these tough weeks.  With my first, it was easier because you could devote all your time and energy into her, but now, with a 2.5 yr old running around it makes it really difficult!
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 17:43:31 pm by jodisully »

Offline ZacsMumme

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Re: NWs periodically for hours after bedtime... are these Mantra Cries?
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2012, 22:54:49 pm »
At 8 weeks I think it's fine to help him ghetto sleep Hun, at 8 weeks we were rocking my boy to sleep every night (I know) but he was an independent sleeper by 4 months (when not refluxing) before 3 months I think if you can work on independent sleep, great, but if they need you then I wouldn't worry about APing too much :)

I would shorten that first A time back so it is only 1hr long or even give your LO a feed at 5 (if you haven't at 3 already) then try to PD to sleep again you may find he starts to learn to go back to sleep. often EW are from OT ;)

Re those 3-6am fussy periods do OU think it could be gas/wind?
***Sara***
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DS1 - Our sensitive soul. Silent reflux.

DS2 Our cheeky chipmunk. Reflux, MSPI.

Offline jodisully

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Re: NWs periodically for hours after bedtime... are these Mantra Cries?
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2012, 00:00:53 am »
My problem is no matter what time I feed him between 3 and 6, he won't settle afterwards for longer than an hour or so. I don't know what to do with him for the rest of the time between 3 and 6 that I'm not feeding him... Last night I shh/patted, held and with soother until 4:15am, then feed him, but then he only settled for 1hr, and was up again at 5am, my husband then held him until 6:45 so he would sleep (although it was a very unsettled sleep).  Up until 2 wks ago he'd just wake up for a feed and then go back to sleep in his crib, we never held him to sleep, although we did give him a pacifier in his bed - which I'd actually have no problem doing at this point, but he doesn't keep it in long enough anymore for his liking and then fusses when it pops out.

He could be fussy due to gas/wind... any suggestions on how to help with that? I do burp him, but he is quite the gassy fellow and seems to be constantly burping and spiting up.  During the day I burp him in stages, during his bottle, after his bottle, after changing his diaper (sometimes during if I see the edge around his lips turn blue, a clear sing a burp is waiting!).

Offline ZacsMumme

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Re: NWs periodically for hours after bedtime... are these Mantra Cries?
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2012, 18:45:41 pm »
For wind/gas have you tried gripe water, infant gas drops or infocal? Big burping sessions also help so keeping your LO upright after feeding and gently massaging the back up to get the wind it.

Is your LO unsettled any other part of the day/night? Does he display any reflux symptoms other than spitting up?
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=654.0

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DS1 - Our sensitive soul. Silent reflux.

DS2 Our cheeky chipmunk. Reflux, MSPI.

Offline Ima shel Alon

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Re: NWs periodically for hours after bedtime... are these Mantra Cries?
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2012, 09:53:47 am »
I woulD also think either Reflux or OT is what's causing the sleep disruption in the early night and the EW.
Like Sara said your A time is very very high. Have a look here for some samples: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164027.0 You would see there that the first A time of the day for most babies of this age is 1h-1:30h.
Do you manage burping after the 3AM/4AM feed?
There is a way you can try to deal with this EW: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0
I do believe that things are getting more settled sleep wise when they grow a bit older. He is still very young and I am with Sara about AP. You will have plenty of time to do sleep training ;)
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Offline jodisully

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Re: NWs periodically for hours after bedtime... are these Mantra Cries?
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2012, 12:52:40 pm »
Thank you ZacxMumm and Ima shel Alon!!! I do think he has reflux, so I feed him sitting up, have the crib on an incline and try to do as many burps as I can during a feed. His older sister had similar symptoms, and I tried every medication under the sun and nothing improved it! She threw up constantly until about  7mths when it magically went away, so I'm bracing myself for the long haul!


For the last two nights I tried something different, I took out the dream feed (I had added one at 11pm, and this coincided with the early morning wakings and his inability to go longer between night feeds), since for whatever reason (perhaps his reflux?) he doesn't sleep well after the second feed of the night.  The last two nights he's only woken up for one feed... lets hope the trend continues, I'll give an update if things change.

I've also found that he does like to do a little mantra cry as he's going to sleep... I let him go for a few minutes, then shh/pat, then let him cry a little bit more... I find if I try to shhh/pat constantly until he goes off to sleep he seems to get annoyed with all the stimulation.  Really I think the key with my spirited one to sleep is is getting him swaddled and in bed between his first and third yawns, and white noise!

Thanks again for all your help, I'm very grateful!!!
joD
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 12:59:13 pm by jodisully »

Offline ZacsMumme

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Re: NWs periodically for hours after bedtime... are these Mantra Cries?
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2012, 19:11:28 pm »
I do think he has reflux, so I feed him sitting up, have the crib on an incline and try to do as many burps as I can during a feed. His older sister had similar symptoms, and I tried every medication under the sun and nothing improved it!
If you feel he is in discomfort it may be worth a Dr visit as all LOs are different. You may find he responds well to medication or thickeners.

Great progress re the DF :)
***Sara***
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DS1 - Our sensitive soul. Silent reflux.

DS2 Our cheeky chipmunk. Reflux, MSPI.

Offline jodisully

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Re: NWs periodically for hours after bedtime... are these Mantra Cries?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2012, 13:20:11 pm »
ZacsMumme - funny you should say that! I actually took him to the Dr. yesterday and he's been prescribed ranitidine (an H2 antagnoist) for his reflux... we'll see how that goes.

Offline ZacsMumme

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Re: NWs periodically for hours after bedtime... are these Mantra Cries?
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2012, 00:47:51 am »
Great, I hope it helps Hun. It can take up to 2 weeks to have full effect, and ranitidine is quite weight sensitive so keep an eye on weight gain.  :-*

Here is some info on ranitidine in case you are interested in knowing more, just scroll down
http://www.cryingoverspiltmilk.co.nz/medicaltreatment/medicationwithdosages/
***Sara***
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DS1 - Our sensitive soul. Silent reflux.

DS2 Our cheeky chipmunk. Reflux, MSPI.