4 mo night wakings for no apparent reason??

[Sarah O]

Help!!

My 4mo baby boy has been waking, for the past week or so, with increasing frequency during the night and I can't seem to figure out what's going on.    He's always woken for a 3 or 4 am feed, but lately I've begun to suspect that he no longer requires it (twin sister has been sleeping through for two months now on same amount of food).  Last night was RIDICULOUS!!!  I was in and out of that room probably 40+ times all night.  Each night that goes by it seems to get worse.  I don't understand what he wants.  I've taught him independent sleep - no consistent problems there.  Feeding isn't what he wants, because although he downs the contents of the bottle he isn't crying for it while I'm preparing it.  He's not cold because I've started putting him in a sleep sack.  Diaper is fine, I don't think he's too hot.  Could he be having separation anxiety at his age?  The only thing that he seems to want is to be held.  As an experiment last night I kept a bottle of water by his crib and gave him some of that in his crib (like a dreamfeed) when he woke the first time.  It seemed to settle him so I went back to bed and we repeated this over and over all night.  Probably a mistake, but I was out of my mind and ready to hurt him.  I knew that picking him up and cuddling him would probably work best but I fought the urge because I know it's wrong (right?).  His cry is what's throwing me off.  It's like this whiny, "crap I just can't sleep" cry.  He twists his head from side to side and squirms around with his whole body like he can't get comfortable.  I've read about letting them fuss for a while to see if they can settle but my instinct says he can't and besides, his poor sister is trying to sleep with all this noise.

I'm sorry if this is all covered in other posts, I just don't have time to read them right now.  Can anyone suggest anything?  To answer the usual questions, they're on 4 hour EASY, naps are starting to improve gradually (but baby boy never naps past the two hour suggested limit), eating around 6 oz per feed, dreamfeed at 11pm.  Bedtime is 7pm, Wakeup feed is 7am...am I missing anything? 

Thanks!!

Sarah

[sa]

how much day time sleep?
can he soothe himself to sleep? is there a prop?

sometimes boys tends to need less sleep than girls.

[albertasweetpea]

Hi Sarah - have you tried increasing the amount he takes at each feed? He may need more food than his sister...is he bigger? How much is he taking at the DF?
As far as the head twisting from side to side, Molly did this as well. Her night wakings were getting increasingly worse (never 40+ times a night, I feel for you there!!) as well. I was at my wit's end and someone suggested a chiropractor.
She has been going now for about 2 weeks, first 3X the first week, now 2X a week and her night wakings have almost stopped!!  :shock:  He did say she had some tension in her neck. I said "what does she have to be tense about?"    He said lots of babies are out of alignment just from being born.
Anyways, she doesn't do the neck twisting anymore and like I said, her nights have drastically improved!! It might be worth trying for your DS.

[Sarah O]

Hi Sarah - have you tried increasing the amount he takes at each feed? He may need more food than his sister...is he bigger? How much is he taking at the DF?
I've never understood how to increase the amount at each feed.  It's not limited.  He feeds until he won't take any more.  He's slightly smaller than his sister.  He takes a full feed at the DF.  Best feed of the day, in fact.

As far as the head twisting from side to side, Molly did this as well. Her night wakings were getting increasingly worse (never 40+ times a night, I feel for you there!!) as well. I was at my wit's end and someone suggested a chiropractor.
She has been going now for about 2 weeks, first 3X the first week, now 2X a week and her night wakings have almost stopped!!  :shock:  He did say she had some tension in her neck. I said "what does she have to be tense about?"    He said lots of babies are out of alignment just from being born.
Anyways, she doesn't do the neck twisting anymore and like I said, her nights have drastically improved!! It might be worth trying for your DS.

That's wild.  I would never have thought of that. I don't think it's feasible for me with twins.  It's hard enough to make it to our appointments for shots...I can't imagine adding more appointments to our days but I'll keep it in mind if this situation continues like this.

Thanks so much!

[Katet]

Now I'm going to go against almost all of your "logic" here... I may be wrong, but these are my thoughts.
He is a boy... she is a girl, they are not the same baby... not even identical twins do the same thing & so they have different needs, he may be having a different growth pattern & need more feeds, his development, physically, mentally & emotionally will be different both because he is not her & also because he is a boy, if you compare them he will "suffer" from "being less good" than his sister & that from an attachment perspective opens up a whole new world of problems.

I don't think you should deny him feeds & just offer water unless he starts refusing them & THEN you know he doesn't need them. Also you have to think... boys are DIFFERENT to girls they have DIFFERENT needs & he could well be needing that extra cuddle & reassurance that he is special... I have 2 boys & they are chalk & cheese... one never stopped crying from a few months & the other is happy go lucky & hardly complains even when hungry.

Having spent a lot of time reading up on the bonding nature (twin studies are often used) the more you compare the 2 the more likely you are to find if you consider he is more difficult than his sister... he will become that way more & more so & you will have more & more problems with him... at this point in time his needs are possibly more, but if you roll with it, you may find hers become more further down the track.

I hope I don't sound harsh here, but comparing one child to a sibling IS a very dangerous path.... they are individuals & should be allowed to develop as such.

If he was my baby, well I'd feed & cuddle & feel sure that I had met his needs & as he is still so young if I did create a bad habit, I could change it soon... just my thoughts though

[Sarah O]

Hi Kate,

Thanks for your reply.  Actually you do sound a bit harsh to my ears, but it might be magnified by the extreme sleep deprivation I'm suffering.  I don't compare the babies to each other at all - only in the sense that I'm a first time mom looking for patterns and just as we all compare our babies here on these boards, I take advantage of the fact that I have two so that it helps me understand certain things that do seem common to babies.  Otherwise, why are we all on here employing strategies that seem to work for babies almost universally?  Anyway, my absolute #1 priority is attending to both my babies' emotional needs, but where I'm hesititating is knowing where to draw the line between "giving in" to something where there's potential for accidental parenting.  Basically I'm trying to do the very best for both my beautiful babies and I'm shocked if it sounds like I'm doing otherwise.  I'll have to re-read my posts and be more careful in future.

Best wishes

Sarah

[albertasweetpea]

Sarah, I did not get any comparing of your twins to each other from either of your posts. The only thing you mentioned was that your DD has slept through for 2 months now, other than that you don't mention any differences/similarities between them.
I do not think you need to reread your posts and be more careful about how or what you post at all. Your posts come across as a caring, loving Mom who wants to do the best things possible for her children. I agree with you that we all compare each other's babies on this site and having twins you would naturally compare one to the other, not saying one is better or not, just their differences.

Kate, I think you were too harsh in your post. As mentioned to Sarah, I don't think she is saying she cares for DD more than DS just because she is "easier".
Most of us on this site can barely cope with sleep training one baby, let alone two. I think Sarah deserves applause for dealing with twins and seeking out the BW techniques and putting them to use. She was looking for guidance, not to be reprimanded.

[Katet]

Anyway, my absolute #1 priority is attending to both my babies' emotional needs, but where I'm hesititating is knowing where to draw the line between "giving in" to something where there's potential for accidental parenting.  Basically I'm trying to do the very best for both my beautiful babies and I'm shocked if it sounds like I'm doing otherwise.

Sarah sorry I sound harsh,  I do think you are doing your best by you babies & for that Fact doing a FANTASTIC JOB ...BUT I just have 2 friends who do Tracy Hogg type work & one was dealing with 3yo identical twins & one was described as "being naughty from birth" & the other "always an angel"... & well your story just sounded like the tale my friend was telling me... the mother had the expectation that because one did something the other should be too... what we need to do is look at whether our babies fall into the "general norm" & from my experience boy babies do tend to have "different" needs (often greater for food & cuddles) than girls :lol:

I think also you need to be mindfull that the idea that you might be "giving in to accidental parenting" can actually prevent you from seeing the real need of your child... in my mind at least accidental parenting can only be seen in hindsight, so if you find you are in a pattern for 3 days of EXACTLY the same cenario then yes that would mean accidental parenting could be in place... but the best way to avoid accidental parenting is to look at the whole picture of that child rather than compare it against another... I would say I do heaps of Accidental parenting... but it doesn't become a habit most of the time & when it does I quickly step in & try to work out where I went wrong & change it. Actually we can't take "steps to avoid accidental parenting" we actually have to look at changing when we realise it is about to become that KWIM.
Anyway my point is to try to look at each child as having unique needs & that they are people in their on right... I hate the fact people say my 2 boys are SO alike... I think rejoice in the fact they are different & look to meet their different needs.

My humble apologies for sound harsh I just didn't want you to fall into the "accidental parenting" trap of making one twin the easy one & the other the hard one... which according to my friend actually happens with over 50% of twins esp Boy/Girl ones

Best of luck

[Sarah O]

Thanks Michelle for what you said  - you read my post the way it was intended - phew!  And thanks to you Kate for your reply, it made me feel better.  I must confess I felt a bit teary thinking that I was coming across as a bad mum. 

The main issue is this: Quinn basically can't sleep for whatever reason from 1am - 5am for the past week.  Whatever is happening, I don't want it to continue!  So I'm just not sure if rocking him back to sleep is something I should do, or do everything to avoid that!  I'll continue with the feeds for the moment.

Thanks again,
Sarah

[Katet]

Sarah, just while I was having my breakfast I thought the fact you have your little girl sleeping through means you are "doing the right" thing...

therefore your little man's waking up is for a "need" not and not a bad habit,  if that makes sense... if it is NOT driven by hunger ie he doesn't take at least 50% of a normal feed when he wakes up, we need to look at other reasons.

What is your day routine like?

[Sarah O]

Sarah, just while I was having my breakfast I thought the fact you have your little girl sleeping through means you are "doing the right" thing...

therefore your little man's waking up is for a "need" not and not a bad habit,  if that makes sense... if it is NOT driven by hunger ie he doesn't take at least 50% of a normal feed when he wakes up, we need to look at other reasons.

What is your day routine like?

Hi Kate,

Well, you're assuming that the same strategies have been applied to both babies consistently but the fact is, Quinn suffers from reflux, had bad colic (now gone), and has generally been a much more needy and dependent baby, and more susceptible to illness from day one.  So for the first two months or so, we did in fact rock Quinn to sleep (did everything but hit him over the head to go to sleep, to be honest!!).  I've spent the past two months correcting all that so that he is now an independent sleeper.  But maybe somehow he remembers that he CAN get rocked to sleep if he really makes our lives difficult enough, LOL?!  Anyway, here  is our day:

6:30 or so, wakeup
7am feed
napping by 8:15, length varies from 45 minute monster to 2 hours...we're working on nap training right now...
11am feed
napping by 12:15, length varies as above...
3pm feed
catnap around 5, sometimes no catnap if other naps were good
6pm bath
6:30ish feed
7pm bed
10:30ish dreamfeed

Awake times are shorter than what other people seem to have...my doctor says it's within normal range and it's not a concern.  Seems to be getting a bit longer the last week or so.

Both babies take somewhere between 4 and 6 oz per feed.  Going to bed at night is quite easy now.  A few "soother incidents" on occasional evenings but mostly we don't hear a peep until Quinn's recent stirrings, starting at around 1am.  As I mentioned, he basically can't sleep from 1-5am and then seems to settle until 6 or 6:30.  Not sure if he just gets exhausted or if we end up finding the right trick after all those hours or what. 

Hope that helps clear up what things are like in our day!

Sarah

[Katet]

Sarah, I only got a quick question to my friend who told me about the twins & she also had a baby with reflux... she thinks the reflux is probably a big factor, (she is away at the moment & I was talking to her cell on a toll call)  Interestingly one of the new mums at swimming has a 6mo, with severe reflux (been hospitalised 3 times) & this morning was talking about how her Dr told her it often got worse up until 6mo & then peaked & got better as babies sat up more & had solids etc.
By the sounds of it the long spell awake after a df, I'm wondering if it isn't a reflux related problem.
Rocking a baby to sleep can cause night waking, but not keep them awake or have them waking constently over an extended period. I know when my ds#1 has been awake & unable to settle for more than 5mins it has ALWAYS been due to illness, normally a middle ear infection for him, but the swimming mum with the reflux baby finds she is up lots.
does feeding at that time reduce the time awake? As the sucking & milk can help reflux.
Routine looks great, but I know at 6mo my ds #2 still has on the short side of awake times & still needs a catnap almost every day... he sleeps 16 hours in 24 still LOL & if he doesn't get the cat nap he wakes at night... I can almost bet my house on that one... so I would suggest for 4mo to definitely keep the catnap... I do Liam's in the pram taking his big brother to the park/shops or railway station.

[Sarah O]

Sarah, I only got a quick question to my friend who told me about the twins & she also had a baby with reflux... she thinks the reflux is probably a big factor, (she is away at the moment & I was talking to her cell on a toll call)  Interestingly one of the new mums at swimming has a 6mo, with severe reflux (been hospitalised 3 times) & this morning was talking about how her Dr told her it often got worse up until 6mo & then peaked & got better as babies sat up more & had solids etc.
By the sounds of it the long spell awake after a df, I'm wondering if it isn't a reflux related problem.
Rocking a baby to sleep can cause night waking, but not keep them awake or have them waking constently over an extended period. I know when my ds#1 has been awake & unable to settle for more than 5mins it has ALWAYS been due to illness, normally a middle ear infection for him, but the swimming mum with the reflux baby finds she is up lots.
does feeding at that time reduce the time awake? As the sucking & milk can help reflux.
Routine looks great, but I know at 6mo my ds #2 still has on the short side of awake times & still needs a catnap almost every day... he sleeps 16 hours in 24 still LOL & if he doesn't get the cat nap he wakes at night... I can almost bet my house on that one... so I would suggest for 4mo to definitely keep the catnap... I do Liam's in the pram taking his big brother to the park/shops or railway station.

Hi Kate,

Thanks for talking to your twin-mom-friend.  Last night was better in the sense that he was much easier to settle each time (every 45 mins/hour from 12:30 - 5:30), I just had to put his soother in and turn him on his side.  I did feed him at 3:30 and he had a stretch of an hour and 30 mins after that which was good.  I'm going to up his Zantac dosage and when we get the second crib this weekend, I'll elevate the head again (tried this with the two of them in one crib but it didn't seem to do anything).  Hubby and I are going to try settling him tonight without the soother each time...that's the plan anyway...we may end up cheating!!

Regarding the catnap, I would GLADLY keep the catnap every day.  But there are some days when Quinn will absolutely NOT take it, even with an hour or more of shh/pat, etc.

Thanks for all your help....will check in with updates of things start to change.

Sarah

[kirsty_167]

sarah......do not read any post above and take it to heart...we all ahve very different ideas just as all babies are different to.I have to say i read the posts and my heart broke for you thinking how u felt reading them.I am going thru a hard time with my 4mo son and i have posted on the eumom site.I have had nothing but loving,caring and supportive replies,if i got a harsh reply it would have probably have  been the last straw for
me.the last thing a tired mother needs is to feel they have done the "wrong" thing.

One thing i have learnt is that i need to make decisions on how i am going to deal with a situation and stick to my guns.I ahve based decisons on what other mums have suggested and my gut instinct.My wee man has been waking around 4-5am each morning and crying...he used to simply wake at 6am and gurgle away untl his 7am feed....for some reason or other he has taken to waking at a horrid hour....Plenty of people said, " just feed him"... so initially i did,i fed him one night at 4.30am but i then found he  refused to finish most of the following feeds,was terribly grumpy and overtired!!Hence the following day i didnt feed him just soothed him back to sleep (which didnt really happen) and then started the day at 6.15am with his first feed.I then just moved his next feeds etc up slightly to accomodate the early start.Then for his solids i increased the amount.Fortunately he slept much better last night he slept 6.15pm-6.15am to the dot!! (with dream feed at 10.30pm)

Basically what i am saying is if u rule out pain,wet,wind etc then u make ur own decision on what u will do when he wakes.I have chosen to sacrifice a few nights sleep to teac him to self soothe again in the night and while others may scream..."no....feed him" he is my baby and i have to do what i feel is best,as do u. You see he slept thru from 7 weeks so i am not going back to night feedings now.I am simply increasing his daily calorie intake and seeing how we go from there.

Honestly sarah my heart goes out to you.You are doing a super job,it is hard enough with one baby let alone twins.Please feel you are doing your best and try to keep your chin up.....as i am trying to do too now.These boards are to support and encourage and maybe sometimes people need to reread what they write before posting,to check that it wont upset but only encourage and help us tired mums get thru another hard day!!! Im sure it wasnt intentional as Kate said...just tiredness is a horrid thing that maes everything look bad and read worse sometimes!!!!

congratulations on ur beautiful babies....and look after yourself too. :lol:

All the best sarahl free to pm me and i will give u my email address as maybe it would be nice to have someone to email and chat and compare stories... not compare babies if any1 reads it that way!!!

take care
kirsty (in new zealand)