Struggling with a routine - 4 months old.

[MLC]

Hi, sorry I don't have any answers for you - new to all this myself, but I wanted to say that I have the exact same problem with my 5mo LO.  I try to fix her feeds every 4 hours, but her 'routine' is all over the place because she wakes up at funny times each day.  For e.g. last night she woke up at 6am to feed, and slept till 9am (her usual is a 7-7.30am wake up).  So I'm very interested to see if anyone has an answer for your question - which is basically, what to do if LO wakes up at night at a time too close to her usual wake up time?

[Tobysmum]

Yes, as the activity time will be different (as they would have already been awake for a while before feeding again - if you feed them in the night).

[meltown]

ok, I see what is happening in your mind now, you are thinking that you must start your day with a feed right?  the reason the order is EAS and not AES is to keep the association away from feeding to sleep.  so if your day starts with a bit of A before the Eating that is ok as long as you are not feeding to sleep.  I thought before that your concern was more the naps.  so I wanted to show you what the day would look like with the shorter nap first.  if this works for you then I think you need to look at each chunk of your day as a separate thing.  so the first awake time ( eating and activity) should be 2 hours.  so you make sure that he doesn't stay awake longer then 2 hours.  if he eats at the beginning of the awake time then great, but if not then just be sure he isn't awake for longer then 2 hours.  does that make sense?

here is what the flipped routine would look like

E-7:00 ( or whenever he is ready)  as he drops night feeds this will be our goal time to wake at eat in the future.
A
S-9:00

Awake by 9:40-10:00
E- when ready just don't feed to sleep (11:00 if eating in the morning at 7:00)
S 11:40-12:00 depending on wake up time  this time may need to be adjusted as some need a shorter awake time after a shorter nap

Awake 1:40-2:00 (this could aslo be extended just a bit if you want
E 3:00 if fed at 11:00
S 3:40-4:00

Awake 5:40
Bath
7:00-7:15 feed (not to sleep)
Bed 7:30

DF between 10-11

for the Eats I think just be sure they are no more then 4 hours apart.  if you need to feed early before a nap then do it even if it is a shorter feed.  we can work with this as you try to get him to extend a bit at night.  what do you think of this


like I said the amount of time awake is what is important.  that and that you aren't feeding to sleep.  does this make it sound a bit more doable?

[Tobysmum]

YES! You have grasped what my problem is.  I guess I found it difficult to explain myself clearly.  I was under the impression that the day must start with a feed (and it would make life easier if it did for sure! - and that's where I have been struggling. 
OK then - if I can start with an A then fine - as until he's not taking a 4/5 feed, he's not going to feed when he wakes up for the day.
We actually had a good day today (in my mind) - yes, there were certainly a couple of blips (one was a very very long activity time when I lost track of time as I had a playdate at my house for some toddlers - despite that he went down perfectly - amazingly enough!

I will see if I can follow what you say tomorrow - or if tonight is a good night, I could try to do something similar to today.

What do you think of what happened today?  This day isn't going to happen during the week because of toddler nursery etc, but at least we followed EASY for the most part and he went 4 hrs between most of his feeds (except the one before bed) - so that's a first for us.

DF last night 9.15 (I know v.early but he woke up hungry then)
E 1.10am
E 4.40am (short feed)

A 6.15/6.30am (I'm thinking he woke closer to 6.15am)
E 7.00am (needed a fewgoes to get a decent feed in him)
A
S 8.05am (1hr 30 mins) - I wasn't going anywhere today so let him sleep.
A 9.35am

E 11.00
A
S 12.30 (yes, I know we had almost a 3 hr activity time!!)  He went straight to sleep no problems.  Stirred midway but I re-settled him with shh pat for a few seconds!
A 1.55pm

E 2.10pm (he wasn't hungry on waking up)
A
S 3.25pm in car but woke when we stopped the car.
A 3.40pm

E 5.25pm (he was hungry and wouldn't have waited any longer - I gave him a 1/4 of a feed to tide him over)
A (bath etc)
E 6.05pm
S 6.20pm (this was early but he was tired and had already been awake for a while).

[meltown]

looks like it was a pretty good day for you.  sorry I didn't understand at first.  do the times look ok for the naps of the routine I posted?  I am thinking we may have to do some moving around of bed time.  you may be able to take some nap time from the afternoon and move it t the afternoon nap so he can sleep more with you other child.  and then bed time will work a little better too.  let me know how tomarrow goes.

I also wanted to mention if he will eat in the morning and only eats a little it is ok because it's like he is topping off.  so he should still be able to go the 4 hours and such.  so I would offer a feed first thing in the morning and if he doesn't then wait until he is ready.

[Tobysmum]

Hi,
Timings of your routine look OK but I think we may struggle slightly with the 9am nap due to him waking up earlier than 7.00am usually, hence he'd need to go down earlier than that.  The nap around 4pm could be a slight challenge if we are out with toddler (most afternoons).  Perhaps I could put him in my sling for that nap - only problem is it's so hot here at the moment and the sling makes both of us hot.
Today hasn't been horrific but naps haven't been that great (is that due to to long an activity time?), admittedly timings have been different to yesterday, but here they are.  As you'll see, he didn't have a very long afternoon nap again - do you think it's because I gave him too long an activity time by trying to stretch his nap a bit later to coincide with toddlers (probably very wrong of me!) 
So far today has been:

DF last night 9.35 (he woke for it)
E 1.30am (a good feed)
Woke 3.30pm - I resettled him with pat/shh as it wasn't feed time!
E 4.40am - (5 min feed - he came off himself)
E 6.00am - (5 min feed - he came off himself - I wanted to put him back to sleep and didn't want to do a full feed)
A 6.45am
E 7.35am
S 8.10am (he was well ready for his nap and went to sleep straight away) - 1hr 30 min nap (woke up himself)
A 9.40am
E 10.45 (he was hungry)
A
S 12.20pm (1.05pm he woke crying - I shh'd/pat back to sleep) - 1hr 15 min nap
A 1.35pm
E 2.20pm (he was hungry)
A
S 3.40pm
A 4.30pm (had woken at 4.20pm but shh/pat back to sleep) 50 min nap
E ??

What does this day look like to you (again, this isn't necessarily how it will be as have been at home all day due to a Tropical Storm hitting where I live).  Should he sleep again today?  As he woke at 4.30pm - he's going to go to bed very early tonight if he doesn't have another nap as I don't think we are supposed to do even 2 hrs activity before bed?
Do you think the short nap at lunchtime was caused by too much activity?
Any other pointers?
Has been feeding a bit more regularly than 4 hrs today.

So, what time do you think he should be in bed.  a 6.30/7.00 bedtime is preferable for us in an ideal day.

Also, looking at the sleep guidelines for babies 4-6 months - I think we are low on daytime sleep - do you?  Total daytime sleep today (unless he has another catnap) is 3hr 40 mins.

[meltown]

he could go to bed at 6:30 tonight I think woudl be ok. 

I will have to take a closer look at your routine and see what I have suggestions on later tonight. 

[MLC]

meltown - thanks for your very clear explanation   i did keep trying to fit it like E-A-S, and with her short naps, it was just tough.  Now that you've explained it, I guess I can definitely live with some A-E-S, or even E-A-S-A.  The key is to keep the E's around 4 hours apart - however the cycle looks like - is that right?

[meltown]

yes, that and just being sure your LO doesn't feed to sleep.