Struggling with a routine - 4 months old.

[Tobysmum]

I have posted before but didn't really get anywhere and things are getting worse.
I am afraid that I will turn my angel/textbook baby into a monster!  I have no routine - I have been observing for the past week and hoping to find a pattern, but things are getting worse.  I am totally obsessing about this whole thing and I am miserable and tired now.  Last night was horrible, lots of nightwakings.  I have a toddler who I take to nursery 3 mornings per week and I just haven't been able to get the routine going around this - baby wakes when the car stops and will not transfer.  For this month, nursery starts at 9.00 (I leave at 8.45am) and finishes at 12.00.  On two of the days I take the baby with me in the stroller to exercise straight from taking him to nursery (it's a class for mothers and babies) - from 9.15-10.15 (so can't feed him during that time).  We then tend to be out quite a few afternoons at playdates from about 3.30/3.45pm.

1.  Goes to bed at same time - asleep by 7.15 ish on a good night or 7.30 if have to shh/pat - that's good as is same time as 2 year old.
2.  Feeds twice per night usually (on a good night) - timings vary was around 2.00 but has got earlier and earlier in the past week (more like between 12.45/1.30am  and then again at around 5.00am but again has got earlier and earlier this past week (more like between 3/4am).   We had a lot of nightwakings last night, because he hardly napped at all yesterday.
3.  Does not wake up at the same time each day - quite often wakes at 6.00 or 6.15am, can sometimes get him down again with shh/pat but rarely.  If he's fed at 5.00 - I obviously can't feed him again then so throws feeds off from the start.
4.  Feeds every 3 hrs (quite often 2 hrs 45 mins is when he gets hungry).  We rarely go longer than 3 hrs - he cries because he's hungry and I just can't let him wait.  Should I let him cry and see if I can stetch him longer - or do some babies still need to feed every 3 hrs at this age?  I know he's genuinely hungry - but then he only feeds for about 5-7 mins on one side only.  He was a low birthweight baby if that's relevant (full-term though).
5.  Toddler sleeps from approx 12.45/1.00 until 3/00/3.30 - ideally I'd like some kind of routine that gets them to nap at the same time.

Can anyone help me with a routine.  We manage to follow EASY but because of his erratic wake up times and still feeding so frequently, the timings are all of over the place and no day is ever the same.  I have got myself into quite a state about this whole thing - I know last night was my fault that I hadn't got him to nap properly.  He's still in our room (just moved him into the big crib) and he's now in a grobag as he was just getting out of the swaddle (miracle blanket) and would cry everytime his legs were exposed.  We live in a hot country too so have AC on - which is good if you are wrapped up but not good if your legs are bare!

Another thing to note is he will not take a bottle (have tried lots and lots) and will not take a pacifier, so those options are out for us!

He's such a good little baby - only cries if he's hungry or overtired - I just feel sorry that I haven't got him into any kind of routine.  We do EASY - I'm pretty good at watching his cues (as long as I see them - toddler is distracting!) - but I feel it's important for him and me to have set nap times and feed times etc (obviously there will be some flexibility).

I just don't know where to start!

If you need other info from me to help, just ask!

[Tobysmum]

anyone?

[Grace's Mom]

Just marking my spot.
I'll be back on later tonight.
I'm at work now, but will post on the MOD forum to let others know you are looking for some help.

[meltown]

here is an example of a 3 hour rouitne.  this was my sons. 

3-hour EASY:

E: 7:30 wake up and feed
A: 8:00(ish)
S: 9:00 (1.5hr nap)
Y: your choice

E: 10:30
A: 11:00(ish)
S: 12:00 (1.5hr nap)
Y: your choice

E: 1:30
A: 2:00(ish)
S: 3:00 (1.5hr nap)
Y: your choice

E: 4:30 feed
S: 5.00 or 6.00 or somewhere in between a catnap (approx. 40mins) to get baby through the next feed and bath

A: bath
E: 7:15 ( be sure LO doesn’t fall asleep while eating)
S: 7.30 bedtime
Y: the evening is yours

Dreamfeed: 10 -11pm  ( your choice as to what time)

there are a few things that you will have to move around.  right now with our 2 kids we have them nap together.  DS naps between 1:30-3:30 so we tryt o line up their naps as best we can.  this usually happens.  to do this you may have to change the amount of time the naps are.  the morning nap could be a bit shorter and the extra time added to the afternoon nap.  this also means that eating and sleeping will be closer to gether ebcause the A time between shorter naps will be a bit shorter.  so look at the routine and see if the times for naps work.  if not what times woudl you like the naps to be.  your LO needs 3 naps 1.5 hours long.

[Tobysmum]

Today went a little better than we had been doing nap wise - he also stretched his feeds much longer.  That said, going down this evening was a nightmare - the worst yet.  I think I missed his window of tiredness.  Reason being that my husband went away tonight for 6 days on business so trying to get them both down (they both go to bed at 7pm) was not easy.  DS goes down for his lunchtime nap at about 1.00 (or 12.45) and will sleep consistently until 3 or 3.30pm which is fantastic!  Obviously, if they could both nap at that time it would be great.  I agree that a short morning nap would probably be better for us and a longer lunchtime sleep plus a catnap (like today really!).
As you'll see, the nightime feeding is probably becoming a slight issue and the feed timings weren't great and not really "Easy".
The other thing is that I don't want to have to feed him in the middle of the exercise class I do three times per week (with baby) which is from 9.15-10.15am (and before that am taking toddler to nursery!)


Here was today (starting with the DF last night)
DF 10.30pm
E 1.00am
E 4.40am (long feed)

A 7.00am approx (wouldn't have been hungry as only fed at 4.40am)
E 8.45am (but not desperately hungry)
A
S 9.05 (in stroller at babybootcamp exercise class)
A 10.00?  Didn't see him wake but was approx. that time.

E 12.20 (good feed both sides - again very rare to take both sides)
S 12.25 (put down awakeish) (woke at 1.30 but shh pat back to sleep briefly)
A 2.40pm

E 4.20/4.50pm (not very interested in feeding - so left it another 10 mins)
S 5.05 (he fell asleep while feeding!)
A 5.35pm (I woke him up)

S 7.45 (although had put him down at 7.05pm and took a long time to get him to settle - tried shh/pat and pu/pd which usually works but it didn't tonight - resorted to putting "in the womb" sounds on stereo! 

I will DF him at 10.30 most likely.

I have been following EASY very well - i.e. activity after eating etc then sleeping, but today it just didn't happen because of his feed times.

[meltown]

I am unsure how many hours you are going between feeds now.  it looks like 4 horus the first stretch, then 4 hours the second.  are you trying for a 4 hour routine or a 3.5 or what?

[Tobysmum]

To be honest, I am not entirely sure what I am "trying" for.  The general info on this site is at 4 months they should be on 4 hr easy - I am not sure if he's ready for that or not since he often won't last over 3 hrs (but sometimes will).  I am thinking he feeds every 3 hrs because he's only taking enough to last him that long (he'll only feed for 5-10 mins max most of the time). 

Today has been a disaster really for example - the thing I think that's making life more difficult is that night feed puts him off his first morning feed.

He fed at 10.30 dreamfeed last night - fine.
E 1.40pm - fine I guess.
E 5.10am - a short feed as I wanted him to feed at 7.00 or so.
A 6.30am - he woke up wide awake.
7.15 - I tried to feed him - not that he was hungry, but I wanted to have the E as close to his wake up time as possible - he wasn't hungry.  I tried again at 7.30am but still not really hungry - took a bit but not a full feed.
S 8.30 - he slept for 45 mins (which was fine as I want him to have a short nap in the morning so he'll have a long lunchtime nap with toddler).
E 10.15 - he was crying with what I thought was hunger - ate hungrily for 5 mins then stopped.
S 11.30 (he fell asleep in the car for 20 mins on the way home from the playground with toddler)
E 12.00 - I fed him when we got home as he would have woken up mid-nap hungry. Again, he didn't take much.
S 12.05 - he woke at 12.20 crying but I re-settled him with pat/shh and pu/pd.

As I said, we just can't seem to start the day with an E if he's had a nightfeed around 4-5am.  How do I tackle that? We are messed up from the start of the day with no E when we wake up so I struggle for the rest of the day and it all goes horribly wrong.

What can I do?   I am really stressed out about this!  On top of that my husband is away for 6 days

[meltown]

do you think he is really waking out of hunger???  have you tried not feeding him?  maybe try to shh/pat back to sleep and see if that works. 

here is what our 4 hour looked like with DS.  if the nap times are off you could just take some of the nap time from the morning nap and move it to the afternoon nap.  this would also mean the E would be slightly different for the afternoon too.

4 hour EASY

E-7:30
A-7:45-9:30
S-9:30-11:30
Y

E-11:30
A-11:45-1:30
S-1:30
Y

E-3:30
A3:45-5:30
S-5:30
Y

E-6:15-6:30
A BATH
E- 7:15

Bed-7:30

DF-10:20

aside formt he feeding thing would the times of this work for you?

[Tobysmum]

I am thinking it's hunger but perhaps it's not - I guess I just need to commit myself to do shh/pat or pu/pd to see if it is.  It could well be habit - he knows when he wakes in the night I feed him (if 3 hrs + have passed usually). 

As far as your routine goes I'd prefer to do 7-7 but that's not a problem, I could just adjust it half an hour earlier.  With having 2 kids I'm just not here in the morning for him to be able to have 2 hr nap - a 45 min - hour nap in the morning would be more realistic and then a 2 hr one at lunchtime would work better for us.  Not quite sure how we'd work that one.  DS #1 sleeps from 12.45/1.00 - 3.00/3.30 consistently.

If I could actually get him to start his day hungry with an E, at say 6.30 or 7.00 I could take it from there - but as I've said, that's where it all goes pear shaped to start with.

Yesterday he slept for 45 mins-1 hr in the morning at 9.00
Today he slept for 45 mins at 9.30

Yesterday he napped from 12.25 for 2hrs 15 mins
Today he napped from 11.30 for 1hr 15 mins) and was fed inbetween and needed a shh and pat midway through!

Feeds are all over the place - that's the big issue when it comes to trying to start our day at a set time.  Perhaps tonight I just try the shh/pat/pu/pd at the second night waking (if it's around 4 and 5am) and see if we get anywhere.  I am not sure if it will work or not since he's well used to feeding at that time now I imagine.

[meltown]

the shorter nap in the afternoon could be switched tot h morning and ten a longer nap in the afternoon.  that would help with what you need.  I would try to not feed but if LO is crying after about 30 min or you know for sure it is hunger go ahead and feed.  he should be able to go at least 4 hours between feeds at night as that is what he is doing during the day.

[Tobysmum]

Well, he was asleep at 6.45pm tonight - and needed no pat/shh.  The evening is still early but hopefully he'll sleep through until the dreamfeed.

A question - should I wake him for the dreamfeed or actually "dreamfeed".  One thing that may not be helping, is I guess he's not feeding for very long at that feed, so if I woke him, he may be inclined to take more?

During the day he can go anywhere from 3-4 hrs between.   

One of the problems could be that he rarely has a "long" feed - usually he's done in 5-7 mins (and that's generally always been the case).  That may be why he wakes up again.

So, I guess what I should work on tonight is trying to ensure he gets a good dreamfeed in (waking him?).

What happens if he wakes between 1-2 like he usually does?  Should I try pat/ssh/ PU PD?  Same with the 4-5am feed?

Meltown - can you just clarify what you mean by putting the shorter pm nap in the morning  are you talking moving the catnap to the morning an then doing a very long afternoon nap?  What would the timings look like?

Our day today went:
He fed at 10.30 dreamfeed last night - fine.
E 1.40pm - fine I guess.
E 5.10am - a short feed as I wanted him to feed at 7.00 or so.
A 6.30am - he woke up wide awake.
7.15 - I tried to feed him - not that he was hungry (because of 5.10am feed, but I wanted to have the E as close to his wake up time as possible - he wasn't hungry.  I tried again at 7.30am but still not really hungry - took a bit but not a full feed.
S 8.30 - he slept for 45 mins (which was fine as I want him to have a short nap in the morning so he'll have a long lunchtime nap with toddler).

E 10.15 - he was crying with what I thought was hunger - ate hungrily for 5 mins then stopped.
S 11.30 (he fell asleep in the car for 20 mins on the way home from the playground with toddler)
E 12.00 - I fed him when we got home as he would have woken up mid-nap hungry. Again, he didn't take much.
S 12.05 - he woke at 12.20 crying but I re-settled him with pat/shh and pu/pd.
A 1.15

E 2.00
S 2.50
A 4.15 (I woke him up)

E 6.10
S 6.45 (it's 7.35 when I'm posting this so still early days!
DF (will do at 10.30)

[meltown]

I will have to post the routine lter, I jus want to say don't wake him for the DF.  that will mess with his sleep patterns.  if he wakes withon 1-2 hours then shh/pat or pu/pd back to sleep.  he will learn not to wake and how to settle himself and not wake as much in the future.

[Tobysmum]

Well, I didn't have to wake him for a DF since he woke up crying at 9.15!  I tried shh/pat for a bit and then pu/pd but I could just tell he wasn't going to settle and was hungry - he was nuzzling on my arm and I could tell he was hungry.  He fed and then went back to sleep.

So, if he goes 3 hrs now, it would be :
12.15, 3.15 and 6.15
(would I try and settle him at any of these feeds.  At 6.15am would I try and get him back to sleep until 7am and see if he'll go without a feed until then?)


if he goes 4 hrs, it would be:
1.15, 5.15.

If it was every four hours in the night, what would I do at 5.15 - would I feed him (since he'd be hungry?) what would I do when our day starts - since he wouldn't be hungry probably.

Sorry so many questions - but as you know, I am struggling with actually being able to start the day with an "E" and want to know what do to!

[meltown]

I would try to extend the first feed, especially if you are feeding at bed time and DF.  if you really think he is hungry then, I would try the second one.  the key with all of this is to get him on a better routine.  we have to feed sometimes and then let my LO sleep in, but since you can't do this, it would be best to try to extend both so there is only one feed at a middle ground time so he will eat better in the morning and not mess things up.  does that make sense? 

have you tried not dream feeding?

[Tobysmum]

Quite often he'll actually wake anyway around 10/10.30 - last night as I say, he woke at 9.15 hungry.  He then woke again at 1.40 - I fed him and he took some from both sides and then he was up again at 5.10 - so for the first stretch it was 3hr 30 mins and the second stretch was 3hrs 30 mins.  I tried shh/pat for a bit at 5.10 but thought as over three hours had passed, he was probably hungry.  I gave him a short feed and he went back to sleep.
I am not sure what time he woke this morning as he probably lied there for a bit before he got vocal - I am thinking it was somewhere between 6 and 6am.  I fed him at 7.05am but he didn't take much, so I kept trying until 7.30 and he took one full breast in the end.  Again, didn't start the day with an E which throws things off yet again. 
He was looking sleepy and he went to sleep at about 8.05 and is asleep  now.

So far today looks like this. 

DF 9.15 (he woke hungry at this time last night after his last feed being 6.15/6.30pm)
E 1.40
E 5.10
A 6.00/6.15
E 7.00/7.15 - struggled to get him to take a full feed (due to 5.10 feed probably)
S 8.05  .......

I must say I am getting close to giving up - there is just no way at the moment that this is working for me, it's stressing me out more than anything.  I am trying to do my best to make it work, but I just don't know how to do it.  If he would wake at 6.30 or 7.00 and have a feed (like the book says!) - and most people seem to manage this except me - then I could do it, but having to do AEASY to start with just makes none of it work.

Oh great, I think he's just woken up after a 50 min nap....

The ridiculous thing is he's such a good baby, so placid and laid back (except if he's hungry of course!)  I feel like we are stuck in a vicious circle - he's hungry in the night so I must feed him and yet that throws the first EASY off from the beginning because it's AEASY.