12.5 MO - EW again, 2-1?

[creations]

Creations, that is interesting. Did your LO start sleeping until 7 when you moved to one nap?

Yes, there was the expected bumps with moving to one nap but that was when he started sleeping until 7am.  Sometimes much later - even 8.30am one morning!  Plus we got 13hr nights when he'd only ever done 10.5 - 11hr nights for the first 12 or so months (I think he was 11.5 months when we moved to one nap). But that was during the inconsistent time of adjusting to one nap.
We still don't have a totally consistent routine though.  Some days he is taking his nap too early because he falls asleep in the car coming home from toddler groups.  And the naps aren't a consistent length either - so we are still bumpy even though it's been around 2 months on one nap.

[*Kara*]

DD was much the same as Creations LO... a 10hr a night girl from 5 months until we moved to 1 nap... then she pushed her nights to 12 hrs until she adjusted to one nap... then they fell back to 11 hrs with a 2 hr nap (sometimes the nap is 2.5 hrs though).

[AnnaLind]

We are still struggling... 5 am WU and short naps.
Yesterday:

WU 5.10 (again)
A 4h 5 min
S 9.15-9.45 (capped after 30 min)
A 3h 15 min
S 1-2, woke up crying. I thought he was OT so tried to resettle. Finally after 35 min he went back to sleep for 45 min.
A 3 h 10 min, very happy and rested
BT 6.30

Today so far:
WU 5.10
A 3 h 50 min
S 9-9.30 (30 min)
A 3 h
S 12.30-1.40, woke up happy so didn't try to resettle. I hope he will last until a 6 pm BT on that nap.

We have had a week of early wakings and short naps, around 1 hour, which I am not sure if they're OT or UT. Right now I'm not sure what to do. Would it be a good idea to extend the first A and cap the am nap to 20 mins?

[clairebear79]

Hiya

I would say that a 1hr PM nap after just a 30min AM nap sounds like OT.  I think at 10 months the A time after a 30min nap may need to be nearer to 2.5hrs rather than 3hrs, esp with the early starts too, so perhaps try that for a few days & see if that gets you a consistently longer PM nap

One other thing I want to add is that whilst the 5-5.30am WU's suck (I too have BTDT), they aren't technically EW if your LO is going to bed at 6-6.30pm.  If you want to try & achieve a later WU I would suggest very gradually shifting the AM nap later by 5mins every 3-5 days until it starts no earlier than 9.30am.  At the same time the PM nap & BT will also shift later until you are eventually at:

AM nap: 9.30-10
PM nap: 12.30-2.30 (this may shift to 1-3 as he gets older)
BT:        7pm  (this may shift to 7.30pm as he gets older & PM nap gets later)

I would probably give the slightly shorter 2nd A time a try first, and if it helps then use this plan to get your routine pushed out later.  Its what I did with my DS at about the same age as yours.  Its not easy, as he'll be tired b/c of the early start/long A to nap, & may well get a bit OT BUT it certainly does help reset their bodyclocks.

HTH.x

[AnnaLind]

Thanks Claire. However, he is 11.5 mo now, time flies when you're having fun sleep training . Do you think a 3 h A time might be reasonable now?
I think you are right about the OT naps, I agree one hour doesn't seem enough. But the nap today really seemed UT, and he was fine all afternoon until BT at 6.

Yes I know it's not technically an EW. It's just we had lovely 11.5-12 hour nights with 5.45-6 am WU before this wonkiness started, so I guess I shouldn't complain, just go to bed earlier!  

We are only 2 weeks from changing our clocks to summertime, so I guess the 5 am problem will solve itself in a way... unless he starts waking earlier and earlier.

I will try to follow your suggestion and see what happens. Only thing is he rarely has had a 2 hour nap in his life. A good nap for him is 1.5-1.75 h. Do you think that will be enough? I doubt I would get him back to sleep if he wakes after 1.5.

Thanks so much again!  

[clairebear79]

Hiya

Ah - missed that one!  WRT 3hr A for 11.5mo - my DS would go down after 2.5hrs at that age & I wouldn't call him high sleep needs.  It did increase very quickly towards 3hrs at 13ish months & then by 14/15 months it was nearer 4hrs so it certainly might be reasonable for your LO to do 3hrs already.  For us, 1hr naps were always OT, so it was this more than anything that made me suggest trying a shorter A.  Perhaps just cut it back to 2h 45 as a starting point, and see if it makes any difference whatsoever to your PM nap length.  If it doesn't, then keep with your 3hrs & he should eventually get there.

nly thing is he rarely has had a 2 hour nap in his life. A good nap for him is 1.5-1.75 h. Do you think that will be enough? I doubt I would get him back to sleep if he wakes after 1.5.

What you *should* find as he heads towards 1 nap is that as the AM nap gets shorter, the PM nap will need to be longer to compensate, & by the time you just have the 1 nap, it should ideally be 2hrs+ in length.  So never say never!!! 

As for whether 1.5-1.75 is enough - I'd say so long as he's getting at least 2hrs of day sleep overall that is ok.  Any less and you risk accumulating some OT.  More may also be ok for some LO's, but may lead to shorter nights for others.  I probably wouldn't try to resettle after a 1.5hr nap either.

I would still consider pushing the AM nap very gradually later though, even if you keep the 2nd A at 3hrs, as this will most certainly help your WU time get later.

HTH.x

[AnnaLind]

Thanks, I will try to push his first A today. Woke up at 5.10 again, but at least I'm rested as I went to bed early. 

[AnnaLind]

If you want to try & achieve a later WU I would suggest very gradually shifting the AM nap later by 5mins every 3-5 days until it starts no earlier than 9.30am.  At the same time the PM nap & BT will also shift later until you are eventually at:

AM nap: 9.30-10
PM nap: 12.30-2.30 (this may shift to 1-3 as he gets older)
BT:        7pm  (this may shift to 7.30pm as he gets older & PM nap gets later)

I know you said "very gradually", but I kinda rushed it a bit the last 3 days.... today so far:

WU 5.25 (15 mins later than before)
A: 4 h 5 min
S: 9.30-10 (30 min)
A: 2 h 40 min
S: 12.40- 2.40 (2 hour naps are apparently possible, yay!) 

I am sure now that he has been OT from a too long second A. Amazing how a 20 min shorter A can make such a difference.
Thank you ever so much! I know it's still too early to celebrate, but at least I know we are heading in the right direction. 

[AnnaLind]

Hi again. A little update and a question:

We have now had 1,75-2 hour PM naps for almost a week, so the 2,5 h second A time really seems to work. It's great!
And we had a few mornings with later WU, but more often he still wakes at 5.10-5.20 AM even though the AM nap is at 9.30.

I'm still trying to work out the first A and the last A. Right now our routine is like this:

Today:
WU 5.10 (yes, still), after a 10 h 40 m night
A: 4 h 20 min
S: 9.30-9.50
A: 2,5 h
S: 12.30-2.40
A: 3 h 50 min
BT: 6.30

He starts yawning only a couple of hours after WU but I've kept him up until 9.30. Since the PM nap is now long and refreshing, I've pushed his BT from 6 to 6.30, but still not to 7 as you suggested, because he seems tired at 6.30. I'm suspecting he might need a bit longer A before BT.
Is 10,5 hour nights enough at this point? It stresses me out a bit, especially with the long first A.
What do you think, should I keep the AM nap at 9.30, or a bit earlier when he seems tired? Any other suggestions?

[*Kara*]

I would push BT.  After a 2 hr 10 min nap, he should easily do 4.5 hrs A time and settle well.

The yawning soon after wake up is likely because his night is under 11 hrs...   Once you can get his night to a consistent 11 hrs, I would drop the morning nap and move to one nap around 4.5 hrs after wake up

[AnnaLind]

Wow, I thought he had to be able to stay awake for 5 hours before moving to one nap. Don't you think the afternoon would be too long if he has the nap after only 4,5 hours?

[*Kara*]

Nope - EBT

This was our day when we first moved to one nap

Wake 630am
Nap 11am - 2pm
BT 7pm.

On the days that she took a short nap, I would either push her as late as I could an do BT a bit early... or if the nap was totally crazy short, I would do a CN in the car for no more than 20 mins to get her through to BT.

[clairebear79]

Only just catching up with this now. 

firstly - yay for the longer naps!!!!

I would push BT.  After a 2 hr 10 min nap, he should easily do 4.5 hrs A time and settle well.

This would be my suggestion too.

The yawning soon after wake up is likely because his night is under 11 hrs...   Once you can get his night to a consistent 11 hrs, I would drop the morning nap and move to one nap around 4.5 hrs after wake up

Agree with Kara on the reasons for yawning.  However, if you get his night to a consistent 11hrs & he is taking his naps & they remain at the same length, then I would say enjoy it for a while!  And only push for 1 nap when he shows you a sign he is ready i.e. resisting naps/naps shortening/BT resisting/long NW/EW.

When we first moved to 1 nap we had a few hairy weeks with naps of 1.5hrs or less whilst he adjusted, & then he settled on around a 2.5hr nap at 11am & then we would do a 6.30pm BT.  EBT is king when you switch to 1 nap!

Good luck!xx

[AnnaLind]

Hi again, I'm back to ask for advice again... we found a great routine for a while with AM nap at 10-10.30 and PM nap at 1-3, and he started waking a bit later (around 5.45). But now we are back to waking at 5.15 again. I'm not sure what to do with his first A after such a short night.

I have capped the AM nap at 20 min and moved the PM nap closer to noon, so we have 4,5 hours A before BT. But I am clearly doing something wrong as his nights are so short and he is not rested in the morning.

This is our last couple of days. He has been pretty tired, I can really tell his nights are short.

yesterday:
WU: 5.15 after a 10 h 45 min night
A: 4 h 25 min (yawning after a couple of hours)
S: 9.40-10.05 (capped after 25 min)
A: 2 h 15 min
S: 12.20-2.50, with several OT wakeups. He was sleeping in the pram so I AP'd to get him back to sleep.
A: 4 h 10 min, happy and rested (probably UT)
BT: 7

Today:
WU 5.20
A: 4 h 25 min
S: 9.45-10.05
A: 2 h 10 min
S: 12.15-2.30, only stirred once after 1.25 then right back to sleep
A: 4 h 30 min
BT: 7

How long A time would you aim for after a 10.5 h night? He is 12,5 mo now. To avoid EW I know I should push the AM nap, but don't feel I can push him more when his nights are so short.

Could it be time to move to one nap now that he is taking lovely 2 hour+ naps? Kara, I know you suggested this but I felt he wasn't ready for it. I'm hesitating even though it's tempting, afraid of the OT monster.

Any suggestions appreciated, I feel a bit confused at the moment.

[*Becky*]

I am going to lock this thread so we can keep all eyes on your new thread.

xx