wakes after 30 mins, is it worth it?

[Florena49]

I stick to 1.30 because most days all he gets is 40 mins naps, he has adjsted to that more or less, i tried reducing A time after the first nap but he fights sleep so i stuck to the A time unless fr example he has a nap and wakes shortly after falling asleep so say 10 mins i to the nap then i might ahorten A time by 10 mins or so, but he wouldnt go to sleep after 45 mins A time, that would be torture for both of us. Today was te first day of extended A time before first nap, i started the wind down at 1.30 he cried a little but was out by 1.35 with a few pats, he still woke up after 40 mins happy as larry, i picked him up and rocked him for a bit and he fell asleep! I can tell you it was a hige inprovement im never able to extend his naps he just goes i to hysteria if i try to do that, so today unusually he slept another hour after i resettled him. I will stick to 1.30 A time for the rest of the day though and will try extended A tine again before first nap tomorrow.

[aarden]

so it doesn't seem to matter that there is less day sleep overall then. I get the impression also that she is fighting sleep before one hour in the cot, but if i take her out in the sling after 45 min assisted nap in cot then she'll be asleep by 30-45 mins in sling in the am.

pm is difficult i think as probably overstimulated by then.

i should add that to complicate things my milk supply i think has dropped dramatically since introducing a bottle in the day. I did this last week as my husband was keen to do it, and i did wonder what it would do as the day feeds were so small and quick and she kept latching on and off. I planned to introduce a feed a week as i had done in the past, but she drained me and 160ml in the bottle. I introduced a further bottle 3 days or so ago and another since, her nappies are really wet in the day now and she poos lots. the health visitor insisted i cannot over feed her on formula and that was not why she was windy. I BF before bed and made a bottle too yesterday and today, she drained me and she took 210ml from a bottle just now!

i do wonder when i feed her at 4-5am now, she is not getting fast enough milk from me so that's why the feeds were so long, then she has been awake for an hour and can't get back to sleep, having said that the sucking feels like comfort feeding at that time! aaargh I just don't know!

I am thinking i have to move on to bottles completely, which makes me sad before I can sort a routine out. I could move to bottles completely tomorrow without feeling too full.

I know her weight is fine as it's moving along 50th percentile. I get the impression she doesn't complain much about being hungry. i have done my best to watch for hunger cues and she is winging after 2.45-3hrs but I am not sure if any of the winging after in the last day is i want more food but my 3 year old bouncing around is distracting me or it's- i'm really tired and that bottle has just made me realise!

[jessmum46]

(((Hugs))) it all sounds rather exhausting for you at the moment.  Are you happy moving to bottles?  If you want to keep breastfeeding then I would suggest you seek out some support fairly quickly from something like La Leche, but if you're ok with the move to bottle feeding that's fine . Just didn't want you to give up on bf if it was your intention to continue - it is totally possible to sort out a routine with a breastfed baby.  I EBF until LO was one (solids from six months) and she never took bottles.  It's not the way you feed that makes the difference to getting a routine sorted is I guess what I'm trying to say, so don't base your decisions purely on that. 

Do you want to post some recent days in EASY format for us?  It's much easier to see what's going on that way and I might be able to help you a little better.

Personally I think pushing on for a full A time every time after a short nap and a very short disturbed night is a bit of a recipe for disaster.....if she is genuinely only getting 12h sleep at the moment in 24h she must be very OT, I would abandon naps in the cot for the time being and just get some sleep into however you can best.  And then you'll both be in a better position to try and re-establish a good routine.

How are you responding when she wakes at 3/4/5am?

[aarden]

Not happy re bottles but milk supply dropped and can't express whilst sling wearing. I realise now that switching to more bottles was a mistake, she needs it and now bottle feeding, thrashing around with eyes wide open is more stimulation for her. I will keep it for bed time though for as long as i can and top up where necessary.

Last night Fed bf plus 210ml bottle 5.45pm, sleep 7 after crying as only 20min nap from 1.30pm due to not walking around long enough at constant speed and direction and change from inside to outside.

Didnt wake up to feed at 10.30pm due to large bed feed and need for sleep.

At the 4am waking she was really awake as usual I b fed both sides and held her for 45 min fitful sleep till 5.40. She has been in the sling all day and from 5.40 had 5hrs so far, hoping for 5 and half. Total sleep 14.5. Big bags under eyes and shouting and thrashing at 6am this am!

I need a plan for 4am! Do I get her in the sling as soon as possible? If I hold her i might get 45 mins, if I put her in the sling possibly longer but then am i reinforcing the early morning wake up?

I am now in a position that I can't look after my 3 yr old alone as she wakes when I walk round house with my 3 year old shouting (she is spirited and OT since the baby was born). Also my 3 yr old is constantly jumping on her when awake.

[aarden]

ok so my back cannot take it anymore. this morning 3.00am waking, I fed and she fell asleep but it was obvious she wasn't hungry. She had 160ml dream feed at 10:45pm.

I took her into bed with me as my back ached, and put her on her side with my hand on her back and she managed 45 mins between 5:00-5:45 until 7:00am when I gave up. She did not want to feed from me and was not asking for the bottle at 7:00am.

So she's had 45 mins sleep since 3:00am.

I cannot lean over the cot and rub her back the only option i have is to sit next to the cot and put my hand on her.

I do not know what else to do other than feed approx every 3 hours and take her to her room several times a day.  A wash (bath too stimulating) and feed from me signals bed time. I'll continue to use white noise.

The good news is that although my LO cried for about 3 hours, my 3 yr old said she didn't hear any of it which is great! my husband on the other hand is very tired but that'll teach him for going out on saturday night and not getting in till 10am the next morning.

Any advice on all this?

[Florena49]

Is there any way she will sleep? In the pram, sling etc? When LO was about 10 weeks he slept in the pram in the kitchen all week i couldnt even get close to his cot for some reason. Amd i would spend most of the day pushing the pram. I know u have a 3 year old would a walk twice a day work for u? I tend to find that in the pram once we get past the first 45 minutes i can leave te pram stationary and he will sleep usually  near on 3 hours. Dont despair as im typing this he is asleep in my arms only way i manahed to resettle him agter his morning 40 min nap. And we have a similar morning problem once its past 5am he will become very restless and i pretty much have to resettle every 40 mins.

[aarden]

She is asleep in the pram now but will wake after 45 mins. I need to actually tackle this. I can't walk around in the sling from 3:00am. 5am i could possibly take as some children do get up at that time, and an early bed can make it work, but 3am is too much. After she had the 45 min sleep, at 5am, she would not go back to sleep, she nearly did but could not make it.

This needs some serious sleep training, it's just a case of deciding how to do it in a way that i can physically cope with for consistency purposes.

Co-sleeping and nursing is just not an option as once she has latched off me, and then wakes she doesn't want to go back on. She preferred the breast in with no milk in this am once she had finished it, but i can't feed her lying down in bed, she just wont have it. She will not even sleep with me holding her, and I can't keep that up anyway.

Her room is the box room as my husband and I sleep separately now but i will see if I can fit a mattress next to her bed so i can stay with her.

[Florena49]

Im sorry i know its exhausting, we are visiting grandparents at te moment and when back home we willl do some sleep training pu/pd really, husband took a few days off work to help, we mainly need it to get rid of dummy and extend naps and night wakings he goes down to sleep ok most of the time during the day. Once he wakes at 5am i feed him resettle then he is up in 40 at that stage i end up rocking him and takibg him to bed with me at the moment because otherwise it will be a screaming match and its unfair on my parents thy have to get up for work. What sleep training where u thinking of?

[jessmum46]

(((Hugs))) hun.  Have we mentioned/checked before - any possibility of something like reflux bothering her which could be impacting on sleep?  Reflux 101 - General reflux information. Have you ever tried for example elevating the head of her cot so she is on an incline to see if that helps her settle better?  What about possible intolerances?  Does my LO have food intolerances?

If none of the above apply I think you need to pick something you are happy with as a settling technique and then be consistent.  Personally I wouldn't put her in the sling at 3am.  I would make every effort to keep her in her cot until a 'reasonable' start to the day.  For me, that was at the absolute earliest 6am but you need to choose something you're happy with.  If that's sitting beside her and resting a hand on her or patting her, that's fine.  You can gradually take your hand away sooner so she can do more of the settling by herself but I would probably concentrate first on getting some sleep into her before you do that.  It's difficult for any of us to learn when exhausted and the same applies to LOs. 

Are you swaddling?  How are you doing recognising her sleep cues?  Is it possible for you to keep track for a day or two and post what's happening? 

[aarden]

We went to the doctors today, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with her. I did wonder about reflux but the acid breath and hiccups are very infrequent now. She is a gassy bum in the early morning so I have bought some gripe water but didn't remember to give it yet, so tired! She isn't pulling her legs up however. She isn't uncomfortable after a feed so I'm not sure about intolerance to the formula we have introduced. Since introducing formula she is so much more wet in the day and poos lots more. The poos are now creamier and actually not mucus like now as sometimes they were. It seems as if she is taking much more food in the day now.

I had always given her a BF in the early morning but I really don't think she is hungry now, she doesn't ask for anything at 6-7am. Now that I am prepared for some crying and waking everyone up including the neighbours, I will lie with her in the room next to the cot with a hand on her. I tried taking her into my bed this am with my hand on her and that's how we got the 45 min sleep but constant crying after  that till 7:00am, she was clearly tired but everytime she went to drop off she just couldn't get there.

It seems that if i can get her to sleep in the cot for a nap, she will never resettle, this also seems true for the morning, which was my original question on whether it is worth doing rub back if it doesn't work for the night time to settle for longer. I will stick with hand on her and no movement as i can keep this up.

She is swaddled in a woombie with one hand out in the hope she will suck it! white noise for nap ritual, none for bed unless unsettled

This is the mess of a few days we had

28th Jan- the first bottle/breast chaos day, was she rejecting me or just not hungry in the morning- i think not hungry!
4am waking BF
S 4:30-5:15 in cot
BF 5:15 tried to cuddle but cried
S 5:50-6:40 can't remember how
S 7:30-8:15 sling
E BF not wanted 8:43 formula 100ml, but not sure too interested
S 9:30-10:10
S 11:10- 11:40
E BF both sides- really hungry!
S 1:00-1:40
E 2:00 bottle
S 3:30-4:00
E 2:00 bottle
S 5:00-5:30
E 6:00pm
S 7:30

29th Jan- further confusion and husband not at home so i skipped the late feed, but 5:20am waking was good for us!
no 10:30pm from day before offered
E 2:00am she woke herself and took 210ml formula and still sucking bottle
S 3:00-5:20
E 5:20 BF and wanted to fall asleep on me, put in cot but awake for the day
S 7:50-8:35
S 9:15-9:45
E 9:45 120ml forumla
S 10:15-10:40
S 11:45-12:45
E 12:45 BF both sides , windy after , the biggest i've ever heard!
S 2:00-2:20
E 3:00pm 180ml formula
S 3:40-5:00
E small BF
S 7:00pm

30th Jan
E 10:45pm 140ml formula
S 11:45pm
E 4:40-5:30 BF both sides fell asleep for 20 mins
awake 6:00
S 6:45=7:30
E 7:45 refused BF, took 180ml formula, assumed sucking fingers was hunger but now realised she is just beginning to find fingers for comfort
S 8:20-9:00
S 9:40 sleep attempt didn't work
E 10:15 BF was looking really tired
E 11:15 100ml formula as wondering whether she was not getting much from me
S 11:45- 2:00pm
E 2:00pm-  I woke her out of sling
E ferocious BF emptying both sides very quickly, cried after so made forumula, took 100ml. v. windy and poo. This is the where i get confused over why she cries out! Still hungry or something else??
S 3:30-3:50
E 4:00 small BF offered
E 6:00pm BF plus 90ml bottle
S 7:00pm
E 10:45

31st Jan
woke 4:10 BF asleep 45 mins
S 6:30-7:15am
E 7:30 offered BF refused, 120ml bottle
S 8:15-9:15
no logs for rest of day

1st feb awakw 4:00am

2nd Feb awake 4:00am
long naps am, short naps pm

3rd Feb awake 3:00am and back hurt so cot naps and pram only, total sleep since 3:00am till 6:30pm bed= 2.5 hours!! fell asleep BF at bed but I sat her up to wake her before putting in swaddle so awake but sleepy.

Dreading the night!
We've moved from difficult to settle after the 2nd night feed (since 4 weeks old) to little sleep afterwards to no sleep after!

[aarden]

I had a thought, she did sleep 6:30pm-3:30am staying asleep at the 10:45 feed, that's nine hours sleep. She was clearly still tired but maybe that's all she'll do in a night? She often used to sleep 8:30pm-7:30pm being awake for 2 hours in the night at the feeds- that's nine hours. Should I just work round this and begin waking her at 10:30 again? 3am-3:30am may stick whatever i do however

Also can i do a different sleep approach for naps as to night time? It doesn't sound consistent but I just tried to lie with my hand on her in the cot and she screamed and screamed. Rubbing her back works to get her to sleep sometimes, but I can't do this from 3am in the morning as it hurts my back too much.

I am still stuck on my original question of what to do as she does not resettle after she has had 45 mins sleep. This morning she woke at 3:30 and started to drop off at 4am but didn't make it asleep till 5am then awake at 5:45, crying for an hour until i gave up.

This baby must be even more confused than me!