Baby self soothes with naps but bedtime a struggle

[Stephnaic]

Hi,
Hoping someone can help me. My 15 week old is doing great at self soothing by sucking his thumb/fingers to fall asleep for his day naps. Which I also struggle with sometimes he does 1 and half hours to 2 and most days it's just 45 min and I can't get him back to sleep everything just frustrates him even the pacifier and his crying gets worse so I let him stay awake until his next feed.

My other struggle is his bedtime he usually feeds at 650 or 7pm and stays awake until 8 when he gets really fussy and wants to sleep so we do our wind down and he's eager to get to bed. He instantly starts to self soothe and is pretty quiet when I put him down however few minutes later he starts to cry and becomes hysterical and does not settle I attempt trying to soothe him with a pacifier or pick up put down but none of that works and requires a lot of walking and rocking and eventually settles and needs a few minutes at the breast to be fully content then he goes down to sleep on his own after that. Then he's in bed by 9 at this point, What can I do? I don't want him to get into the habit of soothing on my breast before bed and I don't know why he does great all day with self soothing and bedtime is a struggle. If anyone has any suggestions that would be great. Thanks
Also how can I make naps longer than 45 min I tried going in there at the 35 min mark and applying my hand on his chest or arms before he startles but that seems to anger him more and just makes the process harder. I know he can self soothe and do it himself so I just let it be some days.

[creations]

Hello
With the shorter naps it could be that your Lo needs a slightly longer A time before going to sleep, to help him make that transition between sleep cycles which he does do sometimes when he naps longer.  LOs move to the 4hr EASY at 4 months, it could be that your LO is ready for a change.  If you post your current EASY (the times which actually happen rather than what you hope for) I could have a look for you?
You might be going in a bit too late for the W2S (helping him transition at 35-45 mins), maybe try 30 mins or try hovering your hand over him ready to pat or put a firm hand on when he stirs rather than putting the hand on earlier. You can adapt the W2S method to find what works best for your LO.  W2S is unlikely to work on a LO who needs a routine change though so you might need a combination of a routine tweak and the W2S to see the nap length improve.

With BT have you tried a cluster feed in the evening?  I know you don't want feeding to come directly before sleep to avoid a F2S habit but if it has been an hour or more since he ate he might be tired but want a top up before going to sleep.  You could do a feed a bit earlier than normal and then another just before the settling for BT and see if that helps any.

[Stephnaic]

Hi thanks for the reply that makes sense
How do I go about transitioning him to 4 hrs?
I tried extending his activity time an extra 10 min today to be 1 hr and 40 min and it was harder for him to settle and he still had a short nap.
Our EASY usually looks like this

E 7am wake up and feed
A 730
S 830
A 920 up
Hold him off until closer to 10
Feed then wait until he becomes fussy and shows signs of tiredness which is usually 1-1 1/2  hours after
E 10am
A 1030
S by 1115 or earlier if he was up early
E 1pm
A 130
S 230
E 330/4
A bath and massage by 5 if fed by 4 (bath only on Monday/W/F)
S 615
Catnap (last two days he's just cried when I put him down for cat naps and never actually slept but was defintitly tired)

E 7pm
A 730
S 830/9 takes a long time for him to settle most times requires a top up feed to settle

[creations]

Here's a link about moving to 4hr EASY:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63161.0

At this age the guidance A time is around 1hr 45 to 2hrs.  Often when an increase is needed you will not see an improvement immediately, it takes LO a little while to adapt to the longer time and it may also be that 1hr 40 is still too short, try not to judge the results on just one nap or one day as it is a transitional phase towards the 4hr EASY and a different routine.

It isn't possible to make any clear recommendations from the EASY you posted as I can't see exactly how long the A time was, how long the nap was or when he woke from the nap.  If you could record your times over the next few days that would be helpful, it is always advisable to record the exact times during routine changes or when there is a problem so that we can see what is happening. Along with the times it helps if you can add a short note of LOs mood or if a nap was resettled or if you tried but couldn't resettle etc.

As it is though I would say the first A time looks too short at 1hr 30 whilst the following A time might be much closer to 2hrs which might be giving a better nap - I can't see when he woke from the 11.15 nap, if it is 1pm where you've put in the E then that's a good nap.  The next A time looks more like 1hr 30 again but again unclear if this is where you are getting shorter nap or longer nap.  And then there is a super long A time before BT in the evening, looks like 3.30 - 6.15 (between the end of the nap and putting down for the CN) which is 2hr 45 plus you've had a couple of days refusing this nap so maybe he's gone right through to BT at 8.30/9pm making a 5hr A time.  This very long A time towards the end of the day can cause lots of BT resistance due to OT and although LO tries to go to sleep he may be too OT to be able to relax properly for sleep.

I would suggest moving to 1hr 45 for a few days and then if naps have not lengthened moving to 2hrs A time.  Also to ensure the last A time is not over long and put him to bed early if needed.

At 2hrs your routine might look something like this:
WU 7.00
E 7.00
A 2hr
S 9.00 - 10.30 (1hr 30)
E 10.30 (this is 3hr 30 from last E)
A 2hr
S 12.30 - 2.00 (1hr 30)
E 2.00
A 2hr
S 4.00 - 5.30 (1hr 30)
E 5.30
A 2hr
E 7pm (this is less than 3hrs but it is the BT feed right before night sleep)
BT 7.30
If one or more of the naps was short you would probably need to add in a CN towards the end of the day and move BT later so that the A times work.

Hope this helps

[Stephnaic]

Here's an idea of what the last few days looked like plus or minus a few minutes. This is what today looked like... I just don't know where I'm going wrong or what to do to help with some of the short naps or the evening struggle right before his 7pm feed. I'm working on a 1hr and 45 min awake time to eventually get to 2 hrs slowly.

E 655 BF
A 730-840   (1 hr 45min)
S 840           (45 min nap)
   925 woke up crying
   930 gave paci still fussy settles on and off
A 940 took out of crib

E 1032 (bottle 140cc formula)
A 1040 (1 hr 40 min) up at 940am
S 1120
A Woke up 130 (2 hr 10 min nap)

E 145 BF
A 200 (1hr 50 min)  up since 130pm
S 320   (50 min nap)
A up at 410

E 457 BF
A 520
S 555
 put down for  Catnap attempting to suck his  thumb but then crying hysterically

612 went in tried paci no luck then gave him a BF top up
620 settled in crib by sucking his thumb
    Woke at 625 and wouldn't resettle mantra     cry for 20 min then went hysterical tried paci and pick up put down no success
657 brought him out of his room

E 708 BF
S 730 asleep with BF
Had some moments around 830/9 where he woke up and was moving around but was able to self soothe and fall back asleep with no intervention

1020 DF
Bed

Pretty much how the last few days have gone but these are the exact moments that happened today
Regardless of these little nap hiccups he has always slept through the night until 650/7am  after his dream feed around 1030 pm

[creations]

Looking at your EASY I think I would increase to 2hrs A now.
He is trying to sleep longer it seems, and can do longer with a longer A time after a short nap.  That second nap could look confusing, it appears to come after a 1hr 40 A time but he was already up from his previous nap a little earlier than this with you trying to resettle so it could be more like 1hr 50 and it was after a very short 45 min nap rather than a long restorative nap.  Based on that, and your others times I think the move to 2hrs may help, for instance refusing the CN after a slightly shorter A time and after having had such a lovely long nap before hand.  Once he refuses the CN or only sleeps for very few mins the evening is going to be messy really, if you can make the CN later things might go a bit more smoothly.
It's okay to cluster feed in the evening if needed.

Great nights!!

[Stephnaic]

Hi there
So my now 4 month old boy is really struggling with bedtime. We  have been on a 4 hour EASY for a few weeks now and he is doing great some short 1 hour day naps but most times can get 1 and half to 2 hours in the morning naps. Mid day naps always seem to be short. When we start his bedtime routine around 7/730, I BF him right before I put him down as I don't do a dream feed and cluster feed him in the evening instead. However he falls asleep at the breast I hold him upright for a few minutes then settle him in his crib at that point and he remains fast asleep and sometimes sucks his thumb to self soothe, about 30 min later the last few nights he wakes up crying and won't self soothe. He is great at self soothing when put down for day naps and throughput the night ( he sleeps through the night) but he just won't settle without my help after his bedtime and has been eventually going to bed very late around 10pm due to this. Last few nights i have gone in about 3 times after i put him to bed to help him settle.What is happening and what can I do. I find he's getting use to me coming in and helping him sleep at this time, when before he would self soothe and fall asleep on his own. It's been a challenging week is this the 4 month sleep regression? Our 4 hour EASY looks something like this

E 715 wakes up happy playing in crib  BF 15min
A 730-840
S 845 today woke up at 940 which is unusual as this is usually his best nap and can sleep a full 2 hours
 Tried to help him back to bed with a paci and cuddle worked for maybe another 10 min

E 1100 bottle feed around 180 cc formula I pump at this time
A 1130-1235
S 1240 these are usually one hour naps but today he got up at 125 and was crying. I left him for 15 min no luck so I went him and BF him and he fell asleep by 2 and slept until 3pm

E 300 BF 15 min
A 315-445
S 450-540

E 545  EBN 180cc
A 615- 740 bedtime routine
E 750 asleep at the breast by 8pm held up to burp and remained sleeping held for 7 min then settled in crib asleep

Woke at 830. Left for 15 min  did not settle went in and burped and BF for about 5 min fell asleep again held for 5 min then in crib at this point he tried sucking his thumb when I placed him own but 15 min later still did not settle went in again at 915 to settle had another burp then BF again until 923 held, him until 930 and settled him in his crib he startled a  bit and put his thumb in his mouth and fell back asleep but woke up again the minute I got down stairs left him and he was fussing around and then eventually fell asleep by 950 on his own( he's awake a long time from his CN up until he finally falls asleep which is what concerns me. Shush pat and PU/PD doesn't work on him as he gets too frustrated and cries hysterically. I'm unsure what to do I don't want this to become a habit that will be hard to break down the road?

Please help

[creations]

As you have started a new thread I will lock this one so we can keep information in one place.