So many things going wrong

[Mummy23boys]

Hi all,
I really hope you can help as I'm at a complete loss. I have a 5 month old that I just can't get in to a routine. His naps are messed up because of school runs as he will always wake early from them because of being disrupted. So then it usually ends up time for his feed the same time as his next nap. So this continues through the day. I can't even give an easy example as it's so different every day.

I try feed at the same time each morning around 7am and by the time we leave 8.40am he's ready for his first nap. Sometimes he will stay asleep and I can pop him in to his room still in car seat for his nap. I can't take him out as he will wake and won't go back to sleep. I've tried a million times! But mostly he wakes early and the day is ruined.

It's been one thing after another since he was born. I breastfed for 6 weeks but unfortunately it didn't work out for us. He was tongue tied and we got that fixed but my supply had dwindled and I was very stressed. He choked when he was 8 weeks old and spent the night in hospital and it turned out to be trapped wind and he became hysterical and chocked. He actually stopped breathing at one point. But was all smiles and gurgles for the nurses and doctors in the hospital. This chocking thing happened another 2 times since but on a lesser scale.

The doctor thought maybe silent reflux so he was put on losec and we switched bottles and formula. But now it seems he doesn't have that at all. He's fine and healthy. But I'm afraid that because he had to be held upright after every feed for 20 to 30 mins he's become used to being held so much and having that contact.

Last week his daytime naps worked out and he was sleeping almost 2 hours for each of them but always bedtime he would cry hysterically. And because I'm so afraid of the chocking thing I have to pick him up constantly before he gets to that point. So I'm finding hard to sleep train. How can I possibly do it?  Each problem is affecting the other and I really don't know what to do. Sometimes he will go down for a nap no problem so I know he can settle himself but other times he cries and cries and I just do what I can to get him to sleep. I feel like everything I do is just wrong.

I'm so sorry this is so long and I don't even know if I've explained everything clearly or if I'm even on the right board to post! I have a 4 and 5 year old too so I'm pretty exhausted at this point.

Can you give me any advice?
Thank you x

[creations]

Hi there
Really sorry to hear things have been so tricky during the the first few months with your newest arrival. I'm sure it must be totally exhausting!

I wonder if something similar to a set nap in the middle of the day might help?  Assuming first nap always ends up a CN because of the school run and it is unpredictable whether you can transfer him to the bedroom or not do you think you might find it easier to figure a routine where that first nap is always a CN instead of keeping trying to get a longer nap?
I didn't have to do the school run when mine was a baby, as I only have one, but I did have a couple of non-movable appointments I had to get to and as a result had a non-standard routine, my DS did not drop to 2 naps at 6 months but instead we had a long nap and 2 shorter naps.  The predictability helped.

This is a guidance routine that you could put in place:
WU - 6.40? 7.00? (not sure when your LO usually wakes)
S 8.40 - 9.20 (CN no attempt to resettle, cap at 40 mins to establish a good mid day nap)
A 2hr 30
S 11.50 - 1.50 (you said he can do a 2hr nap sometimes so here might be a good place for it)
A 2hr 30
S 4.20 - 5.00 (CN)
A 2hr/2hr 30 depending when BT is and how long he can do over night
BT 7pm

Not sure when your afternoon PU time is, assuming though that having woken close to 2pm he will be good for the run without nodding off and then be ready for the CN later.
What do you think?  It takes a few days or a week to get routines going so it's not an overnight solution but once it's set you might feel more in control of the day.

WRT to the holding when you fear he is going to hold his breath or choke (sorry I am not 100% sure what you mean, if there is nothing in his mouth he can't choke surely but perhaps I am wrong.  Is it acid he'd choking on?? Is he still on reflux meds? I have heard of breath holding...does blowing in his face help to trigger a new breath? Have you tried that?) - well I wouldn't worry too much about touching or picking up.  I would say you need to give yourself permission to just do what is needed in those moments without feeling guilty or worried about habits. All the routines and sleep training methods are for babies who are fit and healthy, those with illness or medical conditions will need to have those issues taken into consideration as priority before any kind of sleep training. It does however sound like you LO is able to self settle well when all the variables come together just right.

Let me know what you think. If nothing else I can hold your hand whilst we consider alternatives.

[Mummy23boys]

Hi there and thanks for replying and taking the time to read my very long post! The thing is I'm only home until 12.15 before I have to go again to collect my other son from pre school. Then when we get home I have less than an hour before I have to go again to collect my other son from school. So we are all not back home again until 2pm. I did try and feed at 7, 11, 3 and 6.45. But these change depending on where I can fit them in.

A few things I should add...
I do aim for feeds every 4 hours but sometimes I need to bring it forward by 30 mins or so.
Once he's asleep for thr night he is usually quite good. Will do a DF about 10.30 /10.45 and that get him through to about 6/6.30am or sometimes 7am.He's such a happy smiley baby but when it comes to sleep he's like a different child. It really is hit or miss. He can do a 2hr A so I'm working on extending that.

Yesterday was like this..
E 6.45
S 8.50 -9 (woke himself up he has a cough at the moment, then he did a poo)
Tried to put him down when we got home but he just freaked out.
E 10.30  tried to feed so he might sleep on a full tummy but we had visitors so wouldn't drink his bottle and was loving all the attention.
They left and he finally took his bottle around 11.15 and fell asleep for another 10 mins.
Then I had to go collect my son at 12. 30
S 12.40 until 2.30. Fell asleep in car
E 2.30 solids followed by bottle.
S tried to put him down 4.35 and he fought and screamed until I picked him up. I have 2 other small kids so can't spend ages trying to get him asleep and I had to prepare dinner etc. My plan was for an Ebt and I had him fed and sleep by 6.30pm. But he woke an hour later and wouldn't go back to sleep. So again had to be fed at 9.20pm and finally went to sleep for this night.

We woke this morn screaming for his bottle, I tried soother and his lovey, but he wanted his bottle. So fed at 4.50am and he was back down for 5.20 am.  He fussed a bit and I had to pick him back up incase it was wind, but it wasn't he jut wanted that closeness. I put him back down and he fussed but he did go back to sleep until 7.10am. We got up and I had to give him a few oz at 8am so he wouldn't be hungry while we were out doing school runs. So am out now and will try get home as soon as possible to try get him in his bed for his first nap!
Home now and he fell asleep just as we pulled up. So he's in the car seat now in his room asleep since 9.40 am. Will see how it goes. Sorry again for long post!

[Mummy23boys]

Oh and yes he is perfectly healthy except for a cough and a little cold at the moment.  It is exactly like he holds his breath. Sometimes blowing on him works and sometimes not. It's just when he gets himself worked up its very hard to calm him so I have to take him out of the room completely and calm him. I know he can self settle and as you said when it all comes together just right. I just wish I can get something more predictable together so we can all be happy and rested.

Thanks again x

[Mummy23boys]

Awake now! So he had 9.40 to 10.15! 🙁

[creations]

Hi there and thanks for replying and taking the time to read my very long post! The thing is I'm only home until 12.15 before I have to go again to collect my other son from pre school. Then when we get home I have less than an hour before I have to go again to collect my other son from school. So we are all not back home again until 2pm.

Just thinking out loud here. What about moving BT later and getting morning WU later so that he wakes just in time for a quick feed and out to school run, being less tired during school run to (FX) stay awake for the entire run and go to his cot back at home for a proper sleep where he can more likely transition for a full nap?

So, maybe something like (I'll just put a 2.5hr A time because you'll be moving towards this over the coming weeks):
WU 8am
E 8
A 2.5
S 10.30 - 12 (at home in cot)
E 12 (if this isn't enough time to feed then make WU and nap a bit earlier but not so early that he naps in the car or can't make it back home in time for the next nap at home in his cot, say 15 mins earlier something like that)
A 2.5
S 2.30 - 4.00 (at home in cot)
A 2
CN 6 - 6.30 (this would drop when A reaches 3hr)
A 2
BT 8.30pm

then as you move to 2 naps around 6 months it might look like:
WU 7
A 3
S 10 - 12
A 3
S 3-4.30
A 2.5/3
BT 7/7.30

What do you think?

[Mummy23boys]

Oh yes that looks amazing! I would absolutely love that! I'm gonna do a dream feed now soon and I'm hoping that will get me to at least 6.30 WU but ill try my best to do this tomorrow. It'll be a long day for him but anything is better than what we are doing now. Today was another day of half hour naps here and there and mostly in the car. Hysterics again at bedtime! Thank you so much for this plan of action. I'm actually excited to try it and dreading it at the same time! I will keep you posted on how things are going. And thank you again. Once I have his naps and sleep sorted I have to fix the nighttime hysterics. But one thing at a time!

M xx

[creations]

Oh glad you like it

Now you are way more experienced than I am at this whole baby and parent thing as you are on your third and I have only one but I wanted to just give a reminder - LO is not going to move to this routine on his own. It will take some pushing and shoving to make this happen and a high chance of OT whilst you get there. The thing with OT is it leads to short naps, but you already have those so IMO there is no great loss. Get the OT to work in your favour by "setting" times to get the routine into place and try to avoid any napping when he isn't supposed to be (get your others to keep him awake in the car when they can!).

I tend to advise starting with first nap but I think you may need to start middle of the day or BT to begin this shift.  You do need BT to be later to start to move Wu and get that A time when you are on teh go so you can get home for nap.

Well, good luck - hope it goes well.
Here to hold your hand if needed ok

[Mummy23boys]

Lol! I may be mum of 3 but honestly with this lil guy I feel like a first time mum all over again! He has me baffled! I will do all the pushing and shoving I need to do believe me 🙄 it just has to work! Thank you so much again and I'd say I'll need lots of hand holding 😊

[creations]

We'll be here.

[Mummy23boys]

Well this is how today went..

Dream feed last night at 11pm
WU 5.45 am (after eventually falling asleep at 8.30pm)
E 6.10
Back to bed till 7.20
E 8am (to try stick to the plan!)
S 9.15 to 9.40 in car. Drove around to get him back off.
S 10 to 11.20 in car seat up in his room
E 11.30 and solids at 1pm
Put down in cot to nap at 2pm but he fought and fought and cried and cried till I got him up at 3.10pm and fed.
S fell asleep drinking his bottle so he only had 3.5oz. put him in his cot and he slept until 4.45.
Solids 5.30pm
E 6.35
Bed at 7 and again fought and cried. I picked him up a few times and he'd fall asleep on me then I'd put him down and hold my hand on him or a few moments. Then he'd cry again. so I repeated this until he didn't cry anymore. SO he's asleep since 8.05/8.15pm.

I think he needs his bottle to sleep! And he just wants me all the time to help him sleep. He has a cough too so that's waking him I guess. Ugh! I just don't know. I'm dreading the dream feed! what do you make of it? I don't think he can handle a 2.5 hr A. And I just couldn't stop him from falling asleep in the car. Maybe another association with sleep?

Feeling like the worst mammy ever. Why can't I help my lil guy? I know all all about accidental parenting and it seems I'm doing nearly all of them just to get him to sleep. I know I'm not doing myself any favours in the long run but I don't know how else to do it.😔

Sorry for moaning x

[creations]

Moan away xx

The car is obviously a draw for him to sleep. The motion plus the timing, it is just too much to resist. If you could begin this routine at BT by making BT very late you might have a chance for him to wake later in the morning and begin the A later. It really isn't easy though, it's kind of shoe horning into a routine which works on paper but LOs take time to adapt.
The other thing you could do is continue for now but really move things on over the weekend, assuming you can avoid the car at that time in the morning and just keep him awake until the nap time. Tracy said in the BW book to do a fan dance if necessary to keep LO up - us Mums are usually so keen to avoid OT that we dare not keep babies awake but Tracy did to get LOs onto a routine.

You are not the worst mammy ever, not at all. You have two other kids to care for and you're taking everyone's needs into consideration. You're doing great even if it doesn't feel it at the moment!
hugs x

[Mummy23boys]

Thank you,
I can definitely work on over the weekend as hubby is off. so that will help no car runs. And boys are off school for a week. If I move bedtime to very late, say 9pm do I still do a dream feed at 11?

[creations]

If you move BT (and I suggest trying for a late nap or CN if needed to achieve BT without there being a monster A time before hand) then I suggest you move everything in one go (including E times and nap times, bath time everything these markers through the day help him know where he is up to and what to expect next).  If you usually do DF at 11 I would try 12 instead to begin with just to try to shift his whole body clock, E times and all the really give you the best shot for a later WU.  If 12 is too late for you because of your BT then I'd do it for the first few days if possible and then shift it back a bit, so 11.30 say then 11 and see if the WU stays later.  you just don't want him hungry in the earlier hours of the morning so that he can hang on until the later WU around 8 and eat then.

Based on the books you should theoretically be able to make this routine happen by being consistent and see some progress at around 3 days, it can take longer to fully settle into a new routine but the stricter you are in those early days the quicker it will happen.
I would also push him as close to that nap time as you possibly can even if he wakes earlier than 8am...what I mean is don't keep waiting for him to do this, you have to do it for him even if he is very tired.  Short term he is likely to be all over the place but long term he gets some lovely sleeps at home instead of short sleeps in the car.