Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??

[creations]

Hmm...I would have thought by now he would be settling down for his naps a bit easier than how it's sounding.
Can you post a full day (or 2) of EASY times please?  the actual times that happen across the day and night.

[Madrigal]

Hi !!

That day was still the worst one yet and things have gotten slightly better. It's been 3 weeks.

Lately, we have been having trouble with EW, afternoon nap, and NWs.

Here are some EASYs:

Sunday 8/19

WU @ 6:05, talkative not crying which was different
E 6:30 bf
A 6:45-730
E 7:30 solids *very fussy didn't eat much
S in car 8:30 about 15 min (this isn't typical but we had errands)
A
E nursed before nap 9:55am
S 10-11:15 woke up happy!

E bf snack
A crawling/cuddling for like 10 min
E solids @ 11:45 strawberries, cheese bunnies
A
S CN maybe 3-3:30 pretty fussy, did NOT want to go back to sleep
A Fussy playtime, didn't really nurse
E solids 5:30
A bedtime routine very fussy throughout!
S 7:15

NW 10:30pm *unusual
NW 1am
NW 2:20am Nursed back to sleep each time
__

Monday 8/20

WU @ 5:30
E nursed 5:40
A was very fussy, rubbing eyes, wanting cuddles so I thought he wanted to go back down. He's often like this in the morning.
E nursed a little he fell asleep for 5 min... then up and solids
A play. by 8 was very fussy
S 8:30-9 screamed and sobbed when he woke. Big tears!! Hard to console.
E rice pasta, grapes, pb sandwich bites **seemed grumpy this whole time
E nurse @ 10:15 pu/pd until 11.
A
S 1:10-1:50 I didn't have it in me to push for more
E 2:00 solids and bf
A
S in car 30 min at around 4:15
E 5:15 solids, not eating well, very fussy and acting sleepy
A 5:40 started bedtime routine
S at 7:15 took from 6-7:15 for him to actually fall asleep. I tried pu/pd and struggled so much so eventually let him fall asleep in my arms not nursing and put him into his crib.

NW only once at 2am.



My main struggles/questions:

1. Is my order of bedtime routine messing things up/accidental parenting? bath, massage and song, pajamas, quiet play, book, then nurse? I nurse because it seems to be the only thing that really calms him. After 10 min or so when he is drowsy I pick him up and talk to him and make sure he stirs at least. But i admit often times he's pretty out at this point.
2. Why is he so fussy during the day? It seems obvious that he's tired, especially after his EW but why won't he settle back to sleep?
3. For his afternoon nap, I notice he is tired after 3 hours of A time, even though its been 4 hours for so long. What could this be? But then often he will resist this nap the most when I try and put him down.

Trying to understand this lil guy. Thank you so much for your help, creations!!!!!

[creations]

Hi there, sorry I don't have time right now to really look at your EASYs, my DS needs some attention
I will come back though to have a proper look.
One thing I notice at a (very brief) glance is it looks like you are still running 3 naps if there is a short nap. I think your LO is almost 10 months now and it might work out better for you to really push to a 2 nap routine with one long nap and one CN...and to be strict with the times. Tracy was pretty strict with timings when setting up routines, maybe this is what's needed in your case?

[creations]

Those days might not be typical but what I notice is the first nap being pretty early in the day. I know sometimes it can feel like hey need to go down early after an EW but it could be adding to the problem.
As his A time has been 4hrs for a while I think I would hold off on the morning nap until 10am, this means a 4hr A from a 6am WU.  If he wakes earlier than 6am the A will be longer but you might need to stick with the clock for a while to establish a more predictable consistent routine with him.
I'd try something like:
WU whatever time (hoping for later)
A 4hr or more
S 10am or at least 4hrs (if morning wake up is later than 6am then move the nap later), aim for 1.5 - 2hr nap, wu at 11.30/12.00
A 4hr (only less if you feel he is really really tired or if nap 1 was short but the aim is to extend nap 1 and get it consistent)
S 3.30/4.00 (depending on length of previous nap) 30-45 min or up to 1hr
A 3hr 30
BT 7.30/7.45/8.00 depending on previous nap times and length. Latest will work out to be 8.30pm which seems pretty late but if this happens once or twice it may help to move the WU time the next morning.
it's still a bit of trial and error to work out the best routine.  The A time may need to be longer than 4hr to get a good nap.

On occasion LOs can wake crying (and crying quite hard) when they have had an UT nap.  This can be misleading and misread as being OT or still needing a longer nap, I experienced this with my DS.  The way I understood it in the end (and this happened when he was a toddler of 2.5 years too) is like times when during the day I have had a nap and wake up wishing I hadn't fallen to sleep because I feel rotten.  You ever done that?  Or pre-kids if you woke in the morning then went back to sleep and woke later and felt really wiped out and groggy and feeling that the extra sleep just didn't do you any good?  So we might generally think that we wouldn't fall asleep unless we were tired but I know as an adult if I sleep in the day I feel rough when I wake or if I go to bed particularly early feeling really tired I might then wake early and feel worse for it the following day.  When my DS was going through a routine change he looked OT (tired, grumpy, going down for nap without refusal, short nap, waking crying) but the trick was to increase his A time and this resulted in a good long nap and he woke happy.

Some LOs at 10 months are on over 4hrs A time for one or more of the As, it may be your LO needs one longer.

[Madrigal]

Wow this is great thank you so much! I’ll try your suggestions about the 4 hour A time and naps being at 10. I definitely don’t keep to a clock well and tend to try and read his cues but. I feel I’m getting them wrong often times. That makes a bunch of sense about the UT naps or unnecessary sleep.

Thanks again!!!! Don’t know what I’d do without this forum...

[creations]

See how you go and let me know. There may not be instant improvement of course but hopefully this will help.
Try to keep a record of your EASY so if we need to have a look you know what your times are.

[Madrigal]

Will do! Our move went great by the way. Bub’s crawling got so good and he’s clapping Ann Dunham loving all the space!

Also, do you have any good suggestions for nap routines? Do you think my nursing right before transferring him to the crib disturbs his ability to self soothe even if I don’t put him down asleep? I’m really nervous to separate/dissociate nursing and sleep bc I don’t feel ready for the drama that will cause!

[creations]

I'd be reasonably certain he's in the habit of eating before sleep and using it as soothing even if you are putting him down awake.  If you aren't ready to change it though then thre's no point worrying about it.  It's probably easier to change than if you were feeding all the way to sleep.

Good to hear the move went well

[Madrigal]

Hi there creations and anyone else! Hope you're well

It's been a long last several weeks. We've been up and down with sleep, at the moment he doesn't nurse to sleep anymore, just to drowsy. Which is awesome! And wasn't a difficult transition. Then I read a book and sing his song and set him down. For pretty much all of September, it went great!! He'd either roll over and go to sleep, or hang out in his crib from anywhere to 10-30 minutes before falling asleep. Oftentimes I'd have to go over and pd from sitting up or standing, other times he'd just eventually settle without me. I stay in the room until he's asleep every night. I've progressively moved toward the door, but I've been just near the door for a week now, I can't seem to do the last step of leaving the room.
The last week and a half or so he's been screaming a ton at naptime and bedtime. Not just crying, screaming. He's been teething but its hard for me to know if this one tooth is the only culprit?

I'm wondering creations, have I been doing PD wrong? I don't do it every time he cries out, often I'll just use my words, "It's okay sweetie its just time to sleep. I love you." But it's been over a month of this system of not nursing to sleep and he still has a dificult time going down.

WU @ 6:30
E nurse
A
E
S 10:30-11:45 usually
E solids
A
E
A
S in car ~3:45-4:30 while we pick daddy up from work
E dinner 5:30
A some play, bedtime routine...
E nurse
S after 30ish min on avg of crib time 7:30

He still has NW at least once a night, we've had a few nights where its been several times. I nurse him each time.

I don't know, do you have any suggestions?

Thanks